I have been doing research for over 40 years and have never seen the names Barth and Bird inter changed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:18 AM Subject: [BROYLES] More on BARTH, BROYLES, BIRD, etc. (Part 1 of 2) This thread has intrigued me from the first post. Of course, the original statement was that the name "Johann BROYLES" was "Anglicized" to "Jacob BYRD", and that has been cleared up; however, getting from BARTH to BIRD or BYRD still leaves a lot of questions to be answered. In several databases on genealogy websites, there are BARTH's who supposedly became BIRD's. There have been questions about the relationship between BARTH, BART, BARD, BEARD, BAIRD, BIRD, BYRD, etc. I have never said it is impossible that BARTH was Anglicized to BIRD or BYRD. I did say, however, that I had never seen such a name change documented; then, I searched the Web/Internet and found the Johann Ludwig BARTH genealogy databases, where one of his sons was a John BIRD. (Of course, this is not "documentation", that is, it's not supported by primary source documents.) OK, having done some studies in Linguistics, I can certainly see how such a transition could be done. To an "English" ear, the names BARTH, BART, BARD, BYRD, BIRD, BEARD, BAIRD, etc., spoken by an emigrant who still had an "accent", might sound similar or identical. That was how many "foreign" surnames were changed (Anglicized) by English-speaking clerks and officials to something else, to something more familiar to them, or to something that sounded like something they could actually spell. As Steve Broyles so nicely pointed out, certain letters were interchangeable, even in the "mother tongue" -- B's and P's, T's and D's, etc., were often interchanged in German, even in the "old country". Then, we come to a problem that now affects our genealogy research. Even in the original country, in the original language, there was no standardization of spelling surnames!!!!! Our BROYLES emigrant ancestor John BROYLES, or Johannes BREYHEL, or Johannes BREHEL, was listed in the church records in Ötisheim, Baden-Württemberg, as BREHEL, BREUL, and BRUEL. (To illustrate just how a German name could be completely changed, let me paraphrase John Blankenbaker from one of his posts to the GERMANNA_COLONIES Mailing List. The name was BENDER in Germany; in this combination of vowels and consonants, the "e" would have sounded something like the "a" in "bay", thus it probably sounded something like BAYNDER. Since the letters B and P were often interchanged, not only in spelling, but also in actual speaking, the name might have sounded, at times, like PAYNDER. Then, since the same thing occurs with the letters D and T, some would have spoken the name, and maybe even written it, as PAYNTER, or BAYNTER. From there, PAYNTER or BAYNTER easily became PAINTER. If you take BAYNDER, PAYNDER, and PAYNTER, and say each quickly, there is almost no difference to the sound a person hears, "especially" if that person is English-speaking and has no "ear" for "foreign" speech. Thus, BENDER in German finally became PAINTER in English. A word of caution: 1) Not all BENDER's became PAINTER; some stayed as BENDER, or close relatives such as BENTER, PENDER, PENTER, etc. 2) Not all PAINTER's are of the German BENDER origin; there WERE, and ARE, many PAINTER's in America who descend from PAINTER's from Great Britain.) I found, at <http://www.genfiles.com/baird/originofbard.htm>, an interesting discussion of BARTH/BART/BARD and resulting surnames of BEARD and BAIRD. Again, going from BARTH to BEARD or BAIRD, requires no great stretch of imagination. Since BARTH in German means BEARD in English, there is no conflict there. Going from BEARD to BAIRD, likewise, doesn't take much thinking to see how this could happen. What is so very interesting on this webpage is that Johann Ludwig BARTH (later known as John Lewis BEARD) matches the Johann Ludwig BARTH mentioned in previous notes, the one whose son became John BIRD. This website names the son John Lewis BEARD, Jr., NOT John BIRD or BYRD!!!!! This BARTH family married into many German families, who, although they weren't among the German emigrants from 1714 to about 1735 to VA, did marry and migrate with other German families who ended up in Washington County, TN, namely, SNAPP, BIRD, FOX, MILLER, MARTIN, etc. Then, on yet another webpage, <http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=jimhender&id=I606>, there is the original Johann Ludwig BARTH that was used as reference by Cinda Byrd Deaton, the Johann Ludwig whose children became BYRD's, and he has absolutely no connection to any of the Germanna families. You can scan down the descendancy list for this person and find no Germanna connections. It's just my opinion, but I seriously question the research done on this particular family! A genuine source document (birth record or document) for John BYRD, showing his father as Johann Ludwig BARTH, or even as John Lewis BARTH, would go a long way in legitimizing this research. (Sometimes researchers are so desperate and hungry to extend their lines back past dead-ends or brick-walls, they latch on to anything that "fits". Not saying this was the case here, but without source documents, the database is not useable.) (continued in Part 2 of 2) -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.2 - Release Date: 7/12/04 ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from BROYLES, send an e-mail message to: BROYLES-L-request@rootsweb.com (for individual messages) BROYLES-D-request@rootsweb.com (for Digest mode) Subject: unsubscribe In the body include only one word: unsubscribe (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.718 / Virus Database: 474 - Release Date: 07/09/2004

(continued from Part 1 of 2) (Please see <http://thor.genserv.net/sub/mb5a/note_21.htm> for another "Johann Ludwig BARTH", who, according to some researchers, WAS renamed "John Lewis BIRD". [Note that in this case, the same, identical, people are named BIRD, not BYRD, as in the above. The source documents either give the name as BIRD or BYRD, you can't pick and choose.] Looks like that in all of these referenced webpages lots of guess-work was employed, without much research of original source documents. Yes, sources have been given, but not ORIGINAL PRIMARY SOURCE DOCUMENTS!!!!! The sources are books and such by other researchers that have come to their conclusions, based on scanty data, biased interpretations, a lot of "I wish it were so". An ORIGINAL PRIMARY SOURCE DOCUMENT is an actual copy of a document, such as a birth, marriage, or death record, or a will, or a land deed, etc.; a secondary source document is a "transcription" of such a "primary" source document, that is, someone actually read the "primary" document and wrote, or typed, his/her interpretation of the document. A "secondary" document may contain many errors, due to problems of being able to correctly read the "primary" document. Atrocious handwriting, deterioration from acidity, water damage, etc., can make it very, very difficult to decipher what was originally written, and we have to depend on the transcriber to accurately write or type what was actually there. When we read "secondary", or "transcribed" documents, we must realize that there are probably already errors creeping into the system. Then, when we read "tertiary" documents, where someone has written a book or other reference based on sources from "secondary", transcribed, documents, we reach a point where we have to depend on the ability and veracity of the author. Here, at this level, many, many more very serious errors creep in, all probably not malicious, but nevertheless influenced by exactly what the author wants his/her book or reference to support. Then when we get down to an individual genealogy researcher scanning through all these sources and building his/her family tree from them, we could probably put a number on the validity of such a tree, a number that matches his/her intelligence and his/her ability to use logic and see beyond the trees. As an example, consider the fact that for almost 100 years, Johannes BREYHEL'S [John BROYLES'] wife was known FOR A FACT to be Ursula BLANKENBAKER!!!!!) To end my rather long discourse on this subject, nothing is proven. It's possible, but not proven, that BARTH became BYRD or BIRD. All I know is that "Johann BROYLES" was not "Anglicized" to "Jacob BYRD". As an aside, I've never seen a source document that listed our BROYLES emigrant as "Johann BROYLES"; it was always "John BROYLES", "John BROYL", "John BROIL", or some other variation of "BROYLES". It was never "Johann"; as a matter of fact, in those documents where his German name IS given, it is "Johannes", which is the German "John" spelling when the person has no middle name. All this is to get all of you to THINK. Don't just copy data from databases you might find on various websites. Those databases are a good place to start, good places for you to get an inkling of the history of your ancestors. Then, you must do some research on your own and find the original primary source documents to validate what you put into your own genealogy databases. Regards, SgtGeorge George W. Durman SMSgt (Ret), USAF -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.2 - Release Date: 7/12/04

This thread has intrigued me from the first post. Of course, the original statement was that the name "Johann BROYLES" was "Anglicized" to "Jacob BYRD", and that has been cleared up; however, getting from BARTH to BIRD or BYRD still leaves a lot of questions to be answered. In several databases on genealogy websites, there are BARTH's who supposedly became BIRD's. There have been questions about the relationship between BARTH, BART, BARD, BEARD, BAIRD, BIRD, BYRD, etc. I have never said it is impossible that BARTH was Anglicized to BIRD or BYRD. I did say, however, that I had never seen such a name change documented; then, I searched the Web/Internet and found the Johann Ludwig BARTH genealogy databases, where one of his sons was a John BIRD. (Of course, this is not "documentation", that is, it's not supported by primary source documents.) OK, having done some studies in Linguistics, I can certainly see how such a transition could be done. To an "English" ear, the names BARTH, BART, BARD, BYRD, BIRD, BEARD, BAIRD, etc., spoken by an emigrant who still had an "accent", might sound similar or identical. That was how many "foreign" surnames were changed (Anglicized) by English-speaking clerks and officials to something else, to something more familiar to them, or to something that sounded like something they could actually spell. As Steve Broyles so nicely pointed out, certain letters were interchangeable, even in the "mother tongue" -- B's and P's, T's and D's, etc., were often interchanged in German, even in the "old country". Then, we come to a problem that now affects our genealogy research. Even in the original country, in the original language, there was no standardization of spelling surnames!!!!! Our BROYLES emigrant ancestor John BROYLES, or Johannes BREYHEL, or Johannes BREHEL, was listed in the church records in Ötisheim, Baden-Württemberg, as BREHEL, BREUL, and BRUEL. (To illustrate just how a German name could be completely changed, let me paraphrase John Blankenbaker from one of his posts to the GERMANNA_COLONIES Mailing List. The name was BENDER in Germany; in this combination of vowels and consonants, the "e" would have sounded something like the "a" in "bay", thus it probably sounded something like BAYNDER. Since the letters B and P were often interchanged, not only in spelling, but also in actual speaking, the name might have sounded, at times, like PAYNDER. Then, since the same thing occurs with the letters D and T, some would have spoken the name, and maybe even written it, as PAYNTER, or BAYNTER. From there, PAYNTER or BAYNTER easily became PAINTER. If you take BAYNDER, PAYNDER, and PAYNTER, and say each quickly, there is almost no difference to the sound a person hears, "especially" if that person is English-speaking and has no "ear" for "foreign" speech. Thus, BENDER in German finally became PAINTER in English. A word of caution: 1) Not all BENDER's became PAINTER; some stayed as BENDER, or close relatives such as BENTER, PENDER, PENTER, etc. 2) Not all PAINTER's are of the German BENDER origin; there WERE, and ARE, many PAINTER's in America who descend from PAINTER's from Great Britain.) I found, at <http://www.genfiles.com/baird/originofbard.htm>, an interesting discussion of BARTH/BART/BARD and resulting surnames of BEARD and BAIRD. Again, going from BARTH to BEARD or BAIRD, requires no great stretch of imagination. Since BARTH in German means BEARD in English, there is no conflict there. Going from BEARD to BAIRD, likewise, doesn't take much thinking to see how this could happen. What is so very interesting on this webpage is that Johann Ludwig BARTH (later known as John Lewis BEARD) matches the Johann Ludwig BARTH mentioned in previous notes, the one whose son became John BIRD. This website names the son John Lewis BEARD, Jr., NOT John BIRD or BYRD!!!!! This BARTH family married into many German families, who, although they weren't among the German emigrants from 1714 to about 1735 to VA, did marry and migrate with other German families who ended up in Washington County, TN, namely, SNAPP, BIRD, FOX, MILLER, MARTIN, etc. Then, on yet another webpage, <http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=jimhender&id=I606>, there is the original Johann Ludwig BARTH that was used as reference by Cinda Byrd Deaton, the Johann Ludwig whose children became BYRD's, and he has absolutely no connection to any of the Germanna families. You can scan down the descendancy list for this person and find no Germanna connections. It's just my opinion, but I seriously question the research done on this particular family! A genuine source document (birth record or document) for John BYRD, showing his father as Johann Ludwig BARTH, or even as John Lewis BARTH, would go a long way in legitimizing this research. (Sometimes researchers are so desperate and hungry to extend their lines back past dead-ends or brick-walls, they latch on to anything that "fits". Not saying this was the case here, but without source documents, the database is not useable.) (continued in Part 2 of 2) -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.2 - Release Date: 7/12/04

At 7/9/04 05:36 PM Friday, Carolyn wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >I noticed the name Baird, there are a lot of Baird's in Campbell County, >TN as well as the Broyles and Byrd's, all 3 names have lived here probably >2 hundred years, first in Newcomb, Stinking Creek, Elk Valley and Jellico, >Tennessee. > >Carolyn Cress (Broyles) >(snip) **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** Hi Carolyn, Every BAIRD I have ever known has been of Scots descent. That would certainly fit in with Campbell and Scott Counties in Tennessee. Both those counties were settled primarily by Scots, or, as they are often called in this part of the country, by "Scots-Irish". That's not to say that somewhere, sometime, a BIRD or BYRD didn't have his/her name changed to BAIRD, or vice-versa. They DO sound very similar and I would bet that to an "English" ear, the names BART, BARTH, BIRD, BYRD, and BAIRD, when spoken by emigrants still having an "accent", might sound similar, if not identical. Regards, SgtGeorge George W. Durman SMSgt (Ret), USAF -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.2 - Release Date: 7/12/04

Steve, I do agree with you. But, the whole thread started with a "Johann BROYLES" being changed to "Jacob BYRD". Then, it changed to something entirely different. The submitter confused me from the beginning. Inaccuracies such as that in the original post often lead researchers astray, and cause them to wander off in search of non-existent data. We must be careful what we quote from already questionable sources. If we cause further errors by relying on memory and posting data that was not there in the first place, well, we just compound the problem. Regards, George At 7/9/04 10:04 AM Friday, steve.broyles@teradyne.com wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >George, a change from Barth to Byrd is not totally out of the question. To > >our eyes they are very different words but German pronunciation is >different from ours with T and D being pronounced more similarly than in >English. And according to my German dictionary, Bart is the German word >for beard. > >This proves nothing one way or the other, but Johann Ludwig Barth turning >into John Lewis Byrd/Bird/Baird/Beard seems plausible. > >"George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> >07/09/2004 02:09 AM >Please respond to BROYLES-L > > > To: BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com > cc: > Subject: [BROYLES] Re: (no subject) > > >Snip.... > >I just did a Web search for "Johann Ludwig BARTH", and did indeed find >him! According to the database submitted by jahenderson@att.net, Johann's >name wasn't changed, but his son is listed as "John BYRD". The "Johann" >to >"John" I can understand, the "BARTH" to "BYRD" is a mystery still. > >Snip... **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.1 - Release Date: 7/9/04

The Bairds and Broyles are inter married in Campbell County. Some of the Byrd/Birds are also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn" <carolyncress@bellsouth.net> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry I noticed the name Baird, there are a lot of Baird's in Campbell County, TN as well as the Broyles and Byrd's, all 3 names have lived here probably 2 hundred years, first in Newcomb, Stinking Creek, Elk Valley and Jellico, Tennessee. Carolyn Cress (Broyles) ----- Original Message ----- From: <CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > THANK YOU SO MUCH, I AM LOOKING FOR A CLOA THAT MARRIED JAMES M BIRD, BORN NC > 1778, SHE WAS BORN 1779, NC, WHOM I BELIEVE CAME FROM THE PART OF NC THAT IS > NOW TN. > CINDA > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > You can contact the List Manager at: > broyles-admin@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== You can contact the List Manager at: broyles-admin@rootsweb.com ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 07/05/2004

I noticed the name Baird, there are a lot of Baird's in Campbell County, TN as well as the Broyles and Byrd's, all 3 names have lived here probably 2 hundred years, first in Newcomb, Stinking Creek, Elk Valley and Jellico, Tennessee. Carolyn Cress (Broyles) ----- Original Message ----- From: <CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > THANK YOU SO MUCH, I AM LOOKING FOR A CLOA THAT MARRIED JAMES M BIRD, BORN NC > 1778, SHE WAS BORN 1779, NC, WHOM I BELIEVE CAME FROM THE PART OF NC THAT IS > NOW TN. > CINDA > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > You can contact the List Manager at: > broyles-admin@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

Hello No I am not from NC, my husband's ancestor's came from there, but had moved to Johnson city TN and then on to Grayson, VA, then Russell County, VA and Then Scott County, VA. Carolyn Cress (Broyles) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Roy" <croy@bellsouth.net> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: RE: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > Hey I know a Carol Cress in Winston-Salem, NC are you the same? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carolyn [mailto:carolyncress@bellsouth.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:32 PM > To: BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > > Hello > > Those interested in Broyles\Byrd connection. You will be able to find > information at Campbell County Historial site. My Broyles family settled > here in the late 1700's, I do not know when the Byrd's came here, but there > are a lot of them. My Aunt Chloe was a Broyles married to a Spitzer in > Campbell County, Tennessee. > > Carolyn (Broyles) Cress > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> > To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:01 AM > Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > > > > At 6/21/04 01:11 PM Monday, CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com wrote: > > *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* > > > > >Carolyn, I am interested in the Chloe you mention, I am searching for > info > > >on > > >a Cloa/ Chloe Bird, and understand Broyles was changed to Bird in come > > >cases. > > >Cinda Byrd Deaton > > **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** > > > > Hello Cinda, > > > > Now, that would be a feat indeed! BROYLES changed to BIRD????? > > > > No. You might find BYRD changed to BIRD, or vice-versa. But, BROYLES to > > BIRD? Not likely. > > > > I'm not sure about your references, but would surely like to see them. If > > BROYLES were ever changed to BYRD/BIRD, it would be a new one on me; > > however, there were many, many marriages in East Tennessee between the > > BYRD/BIRD and BROYLES families. It is possible that if an unmarried > > BROYLES woman gave birth to a child, or children, and it was later > > determined that the father was a BIRD/BYRD, the child's/children's > > name/names might have been changed to BIRD/BYRD. But, I have never seen > > such a case. > > > > If you look through the genealogical records for Germanna families in East > > Tennessee, you will find many Germanna descendants with the middle name > > BIRD. I can also cite several cases where illegitimate children were born > > as BROYLES and later took their parental name of BIRD, and vice-versa. > But > > that's the only reason one surname would be changed to another. > > > > It would help if you could give specific examples of BROYLES being changed > > to BIRD. Looking through my extensive databases, I find no Cloa/Chloe > > BIRD, or Cloa/Chloe BROYLES. Please reply with references. > > > > Regards, > > SgtGeorge > > George W. Durman > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.3.11 - Release Date: 7/5/04 > > > > > > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > > You can contact the List Manager at: > > broyles-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > ============================== > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from BROYLES, send an e-mail message to: > BROYLES-L-request@rootsweb.com (for individual messages) > BROYLES-D-request@rootsweb.com (for Digest mode) > Subject: unsubscribe > In the body include only one word: unsubscribe > (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from BROYLES, send an e-mail message to: > BROYLES-L-request@rootsweb.com (for individual messages) > BROYLES-D-request@rootsweb.com (for Digest mode) > Subject: unsubscribe > In the body include only one word: unsubscribe > (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) > > ============================== > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ >

George, a change from Barth to Byrd is not totally out of the question. To our eyes they are very different words but German pronunciation is different from ours with T and D being pronounced more similarly than in English. And according to my German dictionary, Bart is the German word for beard. This proves nothing one way or the other, but Johann Ludwig Barth turning into John Lewis Byrd/Bird/Baird/Beard seems plausible. "George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> 07/09/2004 02:09 AM Please respond to BROYLES-L To: BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com cc: Subject: [BROYLES] Re: (no subject) Snip.... I just did a Web search for "Johann Ludwig BARTH", and did indeed find him! According to the database submitted by jahenderson@att.net, Johann's name wasn't changed, but his son is listed as "John BYRD". The "Johann" to "John" I can understand, the "BARTH" to "BYRD" is a mystery still. Snip...

At 7/8/04 02:09 PM Thursday, CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >SIR GEORGE; >I STAND CORRECTED, IT WAS JOHANN LUDWIG BARTH THAT THE NAME WAS CHANGED TO >BIRD. >CINDA **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** Hi Cousin Cinda, Aha! Aha! Aha! I just knew there was something amiss with your original claim! I've been worrying about this ever since you made the first post about it. I just couldn't figure out how "Johann BROYLES" could have been "Anglicized" to "Jacob BIRD". But, even your corrected information leaves me in a quandary. How in heck could "Johann" be "Anglicized" to "Jacob", and how could "BARTH" end up as "BIRD"? I just did a Web search for "Johann Ludwig BARTH", and did indeed find him! According to the database submitted by jahenderson@att.net, Johann's name wasn't changed, but his son is listed as "John BYRD". The "Johann" to "John" I can understand, the "BARTH" to "BYRD" is a mystery still. The poster of the database gives no source documents or references. That is worrisome, because so many times this type of information, posted on the Web/Internet, is a hodge-podge of information someone has collected from various sources, whipped it into shape to fit his/her conception of how a family tree should go, and published it as the "gospel truth". Supposedly, John BYRD was married to a Catharina FREY. It looks like the BARTH family may have originated in Russia, probably from the community of "The Volga Germans". Catharina's lines go back to good German locations. How a Russian Volga German man and a descendant from a German emigrant got put together in this database is anyone's guess. Incidentally, the reference you found is the ONLY one on all of MyFamily/Ancestry/Rootsweb. Something is seriously amiss with this database by jahenderson@att.net. If I were researching my ancestors and came across something like this, I would either ignore it completely, or maybe email the poster and ask him/her about the apparent discrepancy. Now, to give "A Lesson Learned": 1) Make sure that, when something is posted to one of these Lists, it is correct; don't depend on memory -- post it as it was found, not as you remember it; 2) Don't find ONE source on the Web/Internet and accept it as the "Gospel truth"; 3) Don't pass along that source and its information as truth; instead, if it's even worth passing on, mention it was found and ask others if it could be true; 4) If there are things in the found information that just don't fit, don't pass on the information until you have verified it; 5) DON'T CALL ME "SIR GEORGE"!!!!! (That sounds like you are mocking me.) Regards, SgtGeorge -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.0 - Release Date: 7/8/04

At 7/8/04 01:09 PM Thursday, CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >THANK YOU SO MUCH, I AM LOOKING FOR A CLOA THAT MARRIED JAMES M BIRD, BORN >NC 1778, SHE WAS BORN 1779, NC, WHOM I BELIEVE CAME FROM THE PART OF NC >THAT IS NOW TN. >CINDA **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** Hi Again Cinda, You are correct in that in 1778 the area in which the BIRD families settled is now Washington and Greene Counties, TN. I do not know where early records from that time period are now located, but you might try both the Courthouse in Jonesborough, TN, or maybe even old archives for NC. I've seen several others looking for Cloa's surname, but, to my knowledge, no one has ever found any source documents giving it. There were lots of marriages between BIRD and BROYLES in what is now Washington and Greene Counties, but no researchers have ever the surname of their Cloa ancestor. I've searched the Web/Internet several times for Cloa, but all databases I've found either don't give a surname, or state it is unknown. BTW, those of that surname who were descended from Germans almost always spelled their name BIRD; usually, when you see BYRD, it is of English extraction. Hope you find her someday, SgtGeorge (P.S. Where does your husband's DEATON's come from. The reason I ask is that there were lots of them in Eastern Tennessee, and still are lots of them.) -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.0 - Release Date: 7/8/04

At 7/8/04 07:39 AM Thursday, CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >I WILL HAVE TO LOOK IT UP, BUT I FOUND A REFERENCE TO A JOHANN BROYLES WAS > >ANGLICIZED TO JACOB BIRD, SIR GEORGE. >CINDA **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** Hi Cinda, Well, that will be a first! Over the years, I've done a lot of research, received research data from hundreds and hundreds of "cousins", and put a lot of BROYLES folks into my databases, but have never run across a "Johann BROYLES" being "Anglicized" to Jacob BIRD. Actually, there was only one "Johannes BREYHEL" (also spelled BREHEL, BRUEL, etc., in various official records in Germany). He was the only "Johannes/Johann/Johan" of the name BREYHEL/BREHEL/BRUEL/BROYLES/etc., to emigrate to America. His name was Anglicized to John BROYLES (various spellings here too, but all sounding similar to BROYLES). There was no "Johann BROYLES"; the name was either "Johannes BREYHEL/BREHEL/BREUL/BRUEL (depending on which document one looks at) or "John BROYLES". As far as I know, there was never another BROYLES (of any spelling) with the given name of Johann, Johan, or Johannes besides the original emigrant. Further, "Johann" would never have been Anglicized to "Jacob"; "Johann", "Johan", and "Johannes" are all the German form of the English "John". It is possible that a BROYLES orphan was placed with a BYRD or BIRD family who later adopted him. Thus his surname would have been changed due to the adoption, but NOT because it was "Anglicized". "Anglicized" means that a "foreign" surname was changed either by altering the spelling to an English form, or that it was changed completely by "translating" the foreign word to its equivalent in English. BREYHEL/BREHEL/BREUL/BRUEL was "Anglicized" to BROYLES. This spelling change was done because those English-speaking clerks and officials "heard" the name pronounced by the German and wrote it down the way it "sounded" to their English ears. BROYLES just doesn't, and didn't, sound like BIRD. Likewise, "Johannes/Johann/Johan" was "Anglicized" to "John", its exact equivalent in English. The German "Johann/Johannes/Johan" would not have been "Anglicized" to "Jacob". Here are some examples of what "Anglicized" means: ZIMMERMAN to CARPENTER, WILHEIT to WILHITE or WILHOIT, FOGT to VAUGHT, BENDER to PAINTER, VOGEL to BIRD, GERBER to TANNER, WEBER to WEAVER, ÖHLER to AYLOR or AILOR, KÖNIG to KING, WEISS to WHITE, BRAUN to BROWN, SCHWARTZ to BLACK, ÜHL to YOWEL, SCHMIDT to SMITH, WEISSGARBER to WHITECARVER, YÄGER to HUNTER, and so on. I an anxiously awaiting the reference, since, if backed up with a bona-fide source document, will be something entirely new to us BROYLES/BRILES researchers. BTW, it's not "Sir" George, it's "Sgt" George. Officers are called "Sir"; those of us who actually worked in the military were Sergeants, and were never called "Sir". (GRIN) Regards, SgtGeorge -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.0 - Release Date: 7/8/04

At 7/8/04 05:41 AM Thursday, Troublzup@aol.com wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >(snip) >I don't have a copy of the 1880 Whitley census but you can see the >transcribed version at the KyGenWeb site. On the original the spelling of >the name >looked to me like Broilees Wm. and upon further review it had about 7 or 8 >families >in a row all listed as born in Pa. parents born Ky. The enumerator seemed >to >have had a hiccup in his day. I was fairly certain there were no Broyles I > >knew of in my line from Pa, but the clincher was when I finally figured >out >Susan (his wife) was a Gilreath. I am fairly strong on my Gilreath line >and knew >Susan had not lived in Pa. > >I still have had no success figuring out why 3 Stephens children were in >their household or who the parents were of these children. Hopefully a >trip to >Williamsburg in Sept will help me clear up the mystery. > >Thanks so much for your response (and are you really a Sgt? :-) ) > >Linda **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** Hi Linda, I saw that someone else had answered and came to about the same conclusion in reference to those folks being born in PA. There have been many stories about the census takers back in the olden days. They weren't the best for the job, but I guess the government had to take what they could get. Just glad I could help a little. Well, I was a Sgt. in the USAF until I retired. Just got used to neighbor kids calling me Sgt. George I kind of hung on to it. I served 22 years in the USAF and retired in 1979 as a SMSgt (Senior Master Sergeant); was on the promotion list for the next grade, but would have had to sign up for 4 more years and didn't want to stick around that long. So, I just agreed to retire and bring the family back here to TN where all their relatives lived. We were in Spokane, WA (Fairchild AFB) and that was a long, long way to travel to visit, or to have relatives travel to visit us. Good luck in your searches. Regards, SgtGeorge -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.4.0 - Release Date: 7/8/04

William H. is a fairly near relation to my line. He was a brother to my great-grandfather. Information on him and his children can be found at the following page http://users.rcn.com/deeds/broyles/html/d0006/g0000033.htm#I511 While I can't prove it, I believe the circumstantial evidence is quite strong that he is named for his mother's father, William Hays who was the son of John Hays of Virginia. I hate to disappoint your mom but there is really no way William H. could be a "direct descendant" of Rutherford B. Hayes who was born in 1822 in Ohio and whose parents came from Vermont. Hayes's 8 children were born in Ohio from 1853 to 1873. William H. was born in 1856 in Kentucky and is found there in the census. William H. is therefore of the right age to be a child of Rutherford Hayes, but there is absolutely nothing to indicate any kind of relationship between the two. The president's descendants and very well documented (no surprise!). You can find lots of information on this by typing Rutherford Hayes genealogy into Google. Helen Hayes I have no info on. She was born in Washington D.C. around 1900 and lived her adult life near New York City. "Lisa" <dltzba@neb.rr.com> 07/08/2004 04:17 PM Please respond to BROYLES-L To: BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com cc: Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: W.H. Broyles b. abt 1857 Whitley Co., Ky. Valerie, Did your William Hayes BROYLES die in 1945 in California? ----- Original Message ----- From: <shamnaar@aol.com> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: [BROYLES] Re: W.H. Broyles b. abt 1857 Whitley Co., Ky. > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: Broyles > Classification: Query > > My great-grandfather William Hayes Broyles married a woman by the name of Susan Emerine _______. My mom can't remember her maiden name, but Gillreath could be it. Some of their children were Annie, Addie Belle (my grandmother) and Sarah Etta. Is this the same Broyles family? I would appreciate any more information anyone could give me. My mother insists that William Hayes Broyles was a direct descendant of Rutherford B. Hayes, (29th President of the US) and that the family is supposedly also related to Helen Hayes, actress. I would like to prove or disprove these connections. Thanks in advance! > Valerie ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== You can contact the List Manager at: broyles-admin@rootsweb.com ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Valerie, Did your William Hayes BROYLES die in 1945 in California? ----- Original Message ----- From: <shamnaar@aol.com> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: [BROYLES] Re: W.H. Broyles b. abt 1857 Whitley Co., Ky. > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: Broyles > Classification: Query > > My great-grandfather William Hayes Broyles married a woman by the name of Susan Emerine _______. My mom can't remember her maiden name, but Gillreath could be it. Some of their children were Annie, Addie Belle (my grandmother) and Sarah Etta. Is this the same Broyles family? I would appreciate any more information anyone could give me. My mother insists that William Hayes Broyles was a direct descendant of Rutherford B. Hayes, (29th President of the US) and that the family is supposedly also related to Helen Hayes, actress. I would like to prove or disprove these connections. Thanks in advance! > Valerie

Valerie, Was your William Hayes BROYLES b. in Whitley Co., KY? Not sure if the subject line is the same as your William Hayes BROYLES who was b. abt. 1857 Whitley Co., KY? Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: <shamnaar@aol.com> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: [BROYLES] Re: W.H. Broyles b. abt 1857 Whitley Co., Ky. > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: Broyles > Classification: Query > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IOG.2ACIB/293.1 > > Message Board Post: > > My great-grandfather William Hayes Broyles married a woman by the name of Susan Emerine _______. My mom can't remember her maiden name, but Gillreath could be it. Some of their children were Annie, Addie Belle (my grandmother) and Sarah Etta. Is this the same Broyles family? I would appreciate any more information anyone could give me. My mother insists that William Hayes Broyles was a direct descendant of Rutherford B. Hayes, (29th President of the US) and that the family is supposedly also related to Helen Hayes, actress. I would like to prove or disprove these connections. Thanks in advance! > Valerie

Hey I know a Carol Cress in Winston-Salem, NC are you the same? -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn [mailto:carolyncress@bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:32 PM To: BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry Hello Those interested in Broyles\Byrd connection. You will be able to find information at Campbell County Historial site. My Broyles family settled here in the late 1700's, I do not know when the Byrd's came here, but there are a lot of them. My Aunt Chloe was a Broyles married to a Spitzer in Campbell County, Tennessee. Carolyn (Broyles) Cress ----- Original Message ----- From: "George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > At 6/21/04 01:11 PM Monday, CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com wrote: > *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* > > >Carolyn, I am interested in the Chloe you mention, I am searching for info > >on > >a Cloa/ Chloe Bird, and understand Broyles was changed to Bird in come > >cases. > >Cinda Byrd Deaton > **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** > > Hello Cinda, > > Now, that would be a feat indeed! BROYLES changed to BIRD????? > > No. You might find BYRD changed to BIRD, or vice-versa. But, BROYLES to > BIRD? Not likely. > > I'm not sure about your references, but would surely like to see them. If > BROYLES were ever changed to BYRD/BIRD, it would be a new one on me; > however, there were many, many marriages in East Tennessee between the > BYRD/BIRD and BROYLES families. It is possible that if an unmarried > BROYLES woman gave birth to a child, or children, and it was later > determined that the father was a BIRD/BYRD, the child's/children's > name/names might have been changed to BIRD/BYRD. But, I have never seen > such a case. > > If you look through the genealogical records for Germanna families in East > Tennessee, you will find many Germanna descendants with the middle name > BIRD. I can also cite several cases where illegitimate children were born > as BROYLES and later took their parental name of BIRD, and vice-versa. But > that's the only reason one surname would be changed to another. > > It would help if you could give specific examples of BROYLES being changed > to BIRD. Looking through my extensive databases, I find no Cloa/Chloe > BIRD, or Cloa/Chloe BROYLES. Please reply with references. > > Regards, > SgtGeorge > George W. Durman > > > > > -- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.3.11 - Release Date: 7/5/04 > > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > You can contact the List Manager at: > broyles-admin@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from BROYLES, send an e-mail message to: BROYLES-L-request@rootsweb.com (for individual messages) BROYLES-D-request@rootsweb.com (for Digest mode) Subject: unsubscribe In the body include only one word: unsubscribe (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

THANK YOU SO MUCH, I AM LOOKING FOR A CLOA THAT MARRIED JAMES M BIRD, BORN NC 1778, SHE WAS BORN 1779, NC, WHOM I BELIEVE CAME FROM THE PART OF NC THAT IS NOW TN. CINDA

Hello Those interested in Broyles\Byrd connection. You will be able to find information at Campbell County Historial site. My Broyles family settled here in the late 1700's, I do not know when the Byrd's came here, but there are a lot of them. My Aunt Chloe was a Broyles married to a Spitzer in Campbell County, Tennessee. Carolyn (Broyles) Cress ----- Original Message ----- From: "George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> To: <BROYLES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [BROYLES] Re: Broyles Family Ancestry > At 6/21/04 01:11 PM Monday, CindaByrdDeaton@aol.com wrote: > *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* > > >Carolyn, I am interested in the Chloe you mention, I am searching for info > >on > >a Cloa/ Chloe Bird, and understand Broyles was changed to Bird in come > >cases. > >Cinda Byrd Deaton > **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** > > Hello Cinda, > > Now, that would be a feat indeed! BROYLES changed to BIRD????? > > No. You might find BYRD changed to BIRD, or vice-versa. But, BROYLES to > BIRD? Not likely. > > I'm not sure about your references, but would surely like to see them. If > BROYLES were ever changed to BYRD/BIRD, it would be a new one on me; > however, there were many, many marriages in East Tennessee between the > BYRD/BIRD and BROYLES families. It is possible that if an unmarried > BROYLES woman gave birth to a child, or children, and it was later > determined that the father was a BIRD/BYRD, the child's/children's > name/names might have been changed to BIRD/BYRD. But, I have never seen > such a case. > > If you look through the genealogical records for Germanna families in East > Tennessee, you will find many Germanna descendants with the middle name > BIRD. I can also cite several cases where illegitimate children were born > as BROYLES and later took their parental name of BIRD, and vice-versa. But > that's the only reason one surname would be changed to another. > > It would help if you could give specific examples of BROYLES being changed > to BIRD. Looking through my extensive databases, I find no Cloa/Chloe > BIRD, or Cloa/Chloe BROYLES. Please reply with references. > > Regards, > SgtGeorge > George W. Durman > > > > > -- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 7.0.253 / Virus Database: 263.3.11 - Release Date: 7/5/04 > > > > ==== BROYLES Mailing List ==== > You can contact the List Manager at: > broyles-admin@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

I WILL HAVE TO LOOK IT UP, BUT I FOUND A REFERENCE TO A JOHANN BROYLES WAS ANGLICIZED TO JACOB BIRD, SIR GEORGE. CINDA