Good morning Debbie. I will try to answer, at least in part. I am going to insert into your original message: Don't worry TOO much about the first names. As a general rule of thumb, what's on a birth certificate is often the closest thing to the "original" name. Censuses often record an anglicised version or an everyday name. For example she was Hannah but everyone called her Annie. For deaths it can be patchy depending on who informed. Children, may not even have known their parents "real" first names so they were registered the way the children had heard the family addressing them. This is true for all faiths but Jews do sometimes have the added complication of a Hebrew name and an English name. One of my Dad'c cousins was Morris on all the censuses but the birth registration was for Moses. My eldest aunt (non-Jewish) was known as Joan but actually registered as Murial Joan (if the surname hadn't been pretty rare and I hadn't got the precise DOB from my Mum I would not have found her in the index as Murial J). > > The interesting thing is that on the two census in which he was with his > 'wife' he is down as being born in Carmarthen Wales, as far as my research > as shown there were no settlement of Jews in Wales at that time, so he > either wasn't a Jew then or his parents were travelers. There have been Jews in Wales a LONG time! > > I have never been able to find a marriage for them and I have tried, I can > only assume they either didn't get married, or the names were spelt wrong so > I can't find them. I had an idea if I could find their burial I could then > maybe find out parents names etc. Well, they might have had a clandestine marriage (stille chuppah). Search our archives because this has been discussed a lot previously. Yes, a tombstone should give a patronymic, if there is a stone. A burial record doesn't usually give that information though (IME). > > Three of the children married in the East London Synagogue, so they were > brought up Jewish. I found out that the East London Synagogue was a United > Synagogue so I searched cemetery by cemetery by Philip PHILLIPS and Phineas > PHILLIPS nothing. That doesn't mean much though, I am afraid because the US cemetery search is not perfect and if you haven't got exactly the right name (as they have it) then you can fail to find. It took me forever to find one of my family and I know where they are buried! Try going directly to the United Synagogue Burial Society (contact details are on our website). > > Can anyone advise me if they married around the Mile End, Whitechapel area > what synagogue would have been the likely place, prob. after 1861 but before > 1868. Do you know, if the family were affiliated to the East London > Synagogue where the cemetery would have been, the East London Synagogue > opened in 1889. You're thinking too Christian :-) Geographical location has nothing to do with it. It's not like church marriages where you marry in the parish where you are resident (unless you get a license to marry elsehwere). You need to know where the groom was a member or attended services to know the most likely venue. Remember also that something like 10% of marriages failed to make it to the GRO Index. Having said that, for London, the chances of finding that missing set is reduced as many local registrars' lost records in WW2 and the GRO is the only existing copy of those marriage records. Not great news, I know, but try the USBS and see if they can find the graves and then you might be able to take it further. best wishes, Sherry (Salford, LAN-with a centimetre of snow on her car but almost none left on the road)

Thank you Sherry, most helpful, as an aside my Great Grandfather was Morris and I spent a long time looking for him to discover on his marriage and birth certificate he was actually Moses too. Problem I and a lot of people have is my immediate family were poor so the chances of a head stone at least for my 2xG father is remote. I will keep on searching, I keep thinking both Annie and Philip must have had siblings and somewhere out in the world there is someone who is trying also to find their ancestors, we have yet just to find each other. Debbie Bozkurt, Stornoway about 6" of Snow nearly unheard of up here, getting dressed to play with Camera On Feb 2, 2008 7:22 AM, Sherry with Sky <SherryELanda@sky.com> wrote: > Good morning Debbie. > > I > of my Dad'c cousins was Morris on all the censuses but the birth > registration was for Moses.

-> The interesting thing is that on the two census in which he was with his > 'wife' he is down as being born in Carmarthen Wales, as far as my research > as shown there were no settlement of Jews in Wales at that time, so he > either wasn't a Jew then or his parents were travelers. Debbie - I have just been engaged in correspondence about a family of Camarthen Jews. Their name was LAZARUS. I don't know much about them as they don't belong to "my" tribe of Devon LAZARUS, but it illustrates that there were Jews there. And for sure plenty in other parts as well (I had school mates who were Welsh Jews). Eve Richardson in Toronto, where we just had another big winter storm