> It's true; a collection of BMD's, even photos of gravestones, is a very > incomplete, sketchy framework that doesn't really reveal peoples' lives. > But, it seems that is where one must start; and even if it's where one > must end, it is better than nothing. For me, anyway, given that I never > even met or saw a letter from my paternal grandparents or aunt, and have > almost no information about their or their parents' lives, it does > provide something of a feeling of family! Martha, I agree with you absolutely; I did not intend in any way to belittle the accomplishment and satisfaction of discovering ANY information about one's family. When I started on my Jewish ancestry, all I knew was that my grandmother - an only child - was Jewish and that the family name had originally been Lazarus. My father had grown up in Bermuda, so had had little connection with his mother's family back in England and knew nothing about them, though he could remember visiting his grandfather as a child. This being the case, being able to trace my Jewish ancestry back several generations earlier than my grandmother was a major accomplishment, and as you found the collection of BMD's and photos of gravestones did create a sense of family in the portion of my background where none had existed before. I'm just thrilled that I'm able to discover even more material and can begin to flesh out the bones a bit, and get some picture of what people's lives were like. Martha, the details you have gave you family; I hope you'll uncover more about them in the future. I've been working on the Lazarus tribe for 15+ years and am still turning over stones . . . Eve

Russian Poland refers to parts of Poland that were in the Pale of Settlement controlled by the Russians in the 19th century. The Times Atlas of European History is an excellent reference for this. There were three partitions of Poland in the 18th century when Poland was carved up between Russia, Austria and Prussia (1772 to 1795). Then Napoleon appeared on the scene and created the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, which sought to recreate Poland again, from out of some of the dismembered parts (though it was much smaller then before). After Napoleon's defeat in 1815 at the Battle of Waterloo, the Congress Kingdom of Poland was created which came under the loose influence of Russia (constitutionally it was in union with Russia rather than run by it). Gradually Russia increased its grip resulting in a Polish rebellion in 1831. There was still a Polish parliament of sorts and Polish was still the official language. However, this all changed with an even stronger grip by the Tsar, resulting in the 1863 Polish uprising in which Jews were involved. This combined with a severe famine in the Baltic area in late 1860's and early 1870's, led to a total takeover by the Russians and removal of past freedoms. In c 1866-7 Russian eclipsed Polish as the new official language, the Parliament was dissolved (and new administrative areas agreed - the Gubernias) and Jewish boys were conscripted into the army as young as 12 years old, for a 25 year period. All four sets of my great grandparents left between 1865 and 1875 to escape the famine, conscription and post-uprising clamp down. Jill Whitehead, Surrey

I have just checked out Trove and found 3 photos of family members taken as part of a project to do with immigration to Australia! The search was free. Thanks very much for the links Sheila Brodie Glasgow -----Original Message----- From: british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Naomi Sent: 27 May 2013 22:11 To: BRITISH-JEWRY@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Newspapers - Australia & New Zealand There are two sites which are free and have lots of British & local bmd notices and news articles. Always worth checking even if your relative didn't leave the UK. A lot of British and foreign news was copied as were shipping arrivals & departures, functions, transportation, all sorts. I've also come across info that was passed on direct by families and not always recorded in the JC for example. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast and http://trove.nla.gov.au/ <Trove was free> Naomi Ogin Brisbane Our website is at www.british-jewry.org.uk We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3343 / Virus Database: 3184/6361 - Release Date: 05/27/13

Actually, if you were made bankrupt you were almost certainly published in multiple newspapers and the gazette – as my 3xgreat grandfather was. Cynthia (New Zealand)

My gt grandfather is listed as born in Russia Poland. I assumed this was the part of Poland annexed by the Russians in the late 18th century. His wife is listed as Poland Prussia. Prussia also annexed a different part of Poland at the same time. The third part was annexed by Austria. Jean in Nova Scotia Jean Sent from my iPhone On 2013-05-27, at 8:58 PM, "Jackye Sullins" <jsullins@roadrunner.com> wrote: > David, > > Since Harris is a common name, it would help if you listed the names and > ages as you found them in 1901 and 1911. Which ones are Fineberg? What was > the head of household's occupation? This will also help. > > Also, don't get bogged down between Poland and Russia. Many of our > ancestors lived in places that changed control over the years. My > grandmother listed her original country once as Russia/Poland. > > Jackye Sullins > Admin in Westchester, CA > >> Thanks but I'm not sure that's correct. His first 3 children were reg as > Russian >> subject but the fourth born in London. Would that mean that they arrived >> here after the third child Elizah who was reg at Jewish Free School in > 1895. >> Are you looking at correct Harris ? I'm a novice so please persevere with > me >> ;0) >> >> Dave Pearce > > > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lately on that site we can't mention probate and official death records are showing up. One grandfather is listed as a milkman in his wife's probate. Jean Jean Sent from my iPhone On 2013-05-27, at 6:24 PM, "Martha Jackson" <mjackson@zipcon.com> wrote: > It's true; a collection of BMD's, even photos of gravestones, is a very > incomplete, sketchy framework that doesn't really reveal peoples' lives. > But, it seems that is where one must start; and even if it's where one > must end, it is better than nothing. For me, anyway, given that I never > even met or saw a letter from my paternal grandparents or aunt, and have > almost no information about their or their parents' lives, it does > provide something of a feeling of family! > > Martha > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Rosemary, Thanks but I'm not sure that's correct. His first 3 children were reg as Russian subject but the fourth born in London. Would that mean that they arrived here after the third child Elizah who was reg at Jewish Free School in 1895. Are you looking at correct Harris ? I'm a novice so please persevere with me ;0) Dave Pearce On 27 May 2013, at 19:15, "Rosemary Rees" <rosemary.rees1@btinternet.com> wrote: > Dave > Working backwards, the 1901 census has him born in Poland. > The 1891 census has him born in Poland, too, but gives the town as something that looks like Zasomp. > Hope this helps. > Happy hunting! > Rosemary > > Settle, North Yorkshire, where its wet and cold, researching Woolf(e) and Jewell when she has the time! > > On 27 May 2013, at 18:54, david pearce <david.r.pearce@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >> Hoping someone can offer some help. I'm looking to trace the above and family. They appear on 1901 census in Bethnal Green as Russian subjects living at 52, Fuller St. I lose them after the 1911 census. I am desperate to find out their country of origin. Help please. >> >> Dave Pearce >> Our website is at >> www.british-jewry.org.uk >> We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. >> >> British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Genners, A friend has kindly pointed out a date slip I made in a recent posting in which I mentioned an article I found online from the Liverpool Echo. It was from 8 January 2013, not 3013! Alas I don't posses a special "app" which permits me to see into the future! -- Jeremy G Frankel ex-London, England now Folsom, CA Searching for: FRANKEL: Plock, Poland; London, England GOLDRATH/GOLD: Praszka, Poland; London, England KOENIGSBERG: Vilkaviskis, Lithuania; London, England; NY, USA LEVY (later LEADER): Kalisz, Poland; London, England Pinkus, Poland; London, England PRINCZ/PRINCE: Krakow, Poland; London, England; NY, USA

Dave Working backwards, the 1901 census has him born in Poland. The 1891 census has him born in Poland, too, but gives the town as something that looks like Zasomp. Hope this helps. Happy hunting! Rosemary Settle, North Yorkshire, where its wet and cold, researching Woolf(e) and Jewell when she has the time! On 27 May 2013, at 18:54, david pearce <david.r.pearce@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > Hoping someone can offer some help. I'm looking to trace the above and family. They appear on 1901 census in Bethnal Green as Russian subjects living at 52, Fuller St. I lose them after the 1911 census. I am desperate to find out their country of origin. Help please. > > Dave Pearce > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hoping someone can offer some help. I'm looking to trace the above and family. They appear on 1901 census in Bethnal Green as Russian subjects living at 52, Fuller St. I lose them after the 1911 census. I am desperate to find out their country of origin. Help please. Dave Pearce

Thanks for the information, Jill. I think we all now understand the possibilities and the historical perspective so consider the Russia/Poland thread closed. We can continue to help David with the UK portion of his problem. Jackye Sullins In her new place in Westchester, CA > Russian Poland refers to parts of Poland that were in the Pale of Settlement > controlled by the Russians in the 19th century. The Times Atlas of European > History is an excellent reference for this. > > > Jill Whitehead, Surrey

Dear David, Many folks could be somewhat "fast and loose" with many specifics of their lives - where and when they were born even their names. Following a family and recognizing their path through history means gaining an understanding from all the documents and forming an "aggregate" opinion. Do the parents and children appear to be the same unit "flowing" through history? In researching the HAFT family, the obituary of a wealthy man who died in New York, it was stated he was born in England. Actually he was born in Europe, brought to England as a very young boy and so this was his earliest memory - living in London, England. Hence the story passed down through time. I'm not sure I can agree with Rosemary's assertion that he might have come from "Zasump?" because there is no ditto mark against his name. Only the wife and daughter of the head of household were from there. The two lodgers, Jacob Cohen and Harris (indexed as "Harrie") Fineberg were from "Russia. What is interesting is that Harris is listed as married, so it might mean he is following the usual pattern of coming first to earn a living then send back either the money for tickets or the tickets themselves. In the 1901 Census, the last four children are claimed to have been born in Bethnal Green, London; Aby (born abt 1891), Hyman (1894), Hanna (1897) and Samuel (1899). Reviewing FreeBMD, one could surmise that the Annie born in Bethnal Green in 1897 (1Q) could be Hanna, and the Samuel born in 1899 (1Q) also in Bethnal Green could be him. There are no matches for an Aby/Abraham or Hyman - at least not in Bethnal Green. In the 1911 Census, the family can be found though the wife Hanna is listed as Emma, and the oldest son Aby is now Louis, otherwise all the other children match with their names and ages. That said, the 1891 entry might be a red herring as the first two sons may well have been born abroad and the family emigrated to England around 1895-6 in time for Annie/Hanna to be born in London in 1897. Just one of several scenarios you may have to posit. There are also a number of Harris Fineberg entries in the London Gazette which may be worth following up. Sincerely,

At least two of my gr gr grandparents were born in Poland while it was under Russian power (which it often was, through the years), so they were Russian subjects, but the family always called themselves Polish. Martha

Dear Genners, I have to generally agree with what Sherry has written. Although I've basically stopped looking, I have over 550 "announcements" or notices from all the various families I am researching who are all part of my all-embracing mishpocheh. As a rule of thumb on my father's side the Frankels and Koenigsbergs, who were business owners, were always placing family notices, or there were events which mentioned them. On the other hand my mother's families, the Gold(raths) and Levys were in the schmatter trade and generally somewhat poor. The only item of interest was when my great aunt Dora Levy was one of 134 people who drowned when an overnight mail ship sunk off the Netherlands coast . Whilst there were many international and national newspaper reports, it was only the Jewish Chronicle which published the sad story of her demise and the family she left behind, which I might add was chock-full of genealogical information. -- Jeremy G Frankel ex-London, England now Folsom, CA Searching for: FRANKEL: Plock, Poland; London, England GOLDRATH/GOLD: Praszka, Poland; London, England KOENIGSBERG: Vilkaviskis, Lithuania; London, England; NY, USA LEVY (later LEADER): Kalisz, Poland; London, England Pinkus, Poland; London, England PRINCZ/PRINCE: Krakow, Poland; London, England; NY, USA

David, Since Harris is a common name, it would help if you listed the names and ages as you found them in 1901 and 1911. Which ones are Fineberg? What was the head of household's occupation? This will also help. Also, don't get bogged down between Poland and Russia. Many of our ancestors lived in places that changed control over the years. My grandmother listed her original country once as Russia/Poland. Jackye Sullins Admin in Westchester, CA > Thanks but I'm not sure that's correct. His first 3 children were reg as Russian > subject but the fourth born in London. Would that mean that they arrived > here after the third child Elizah who was reg at Jewish Free School in 1895. > Are you looking at correct Harris ? I'm a novice so please persevere with me > ;0) > > Dave Pearce

>From having studied the Jewish Chronicle for all sorts of reasons, it is clear from the personal notices that the wealthy could afford, while the poor could not. Even my great-great-grandfather has a tiny notice, while I am sure that the family saved for a long time to pay for his tombstone which is still in good nick after over 100 years. Miriam Pollak Melbourne, Australia Still working on Plashet Cemetery > > Actually, if you were made bankrupt you were almost certainly published in multiple newspapers and the gazette – as my 3xgreat grandfather was. > > Cynthia > > (New Zealand) > > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> > I've been saying (and writing) for some time now that newspapers are > the next "big thing." Dear Jeremy, You're absolutely right. It's having them online and searchable that's making all the difference. I've often wondered what having a collection of BMDs really means - they tell us nothing about a person's life. For me, much of the value of the articles I've stumbled on hasn't been the the addition to those, but the welter of events that contribute to the picture of their daily lives: one family member (or his daughter and son) was frequently called to court, either because he was the victim of theft, or because petty thieves tried to flog him their stolen goods; my 3xgr grpa's place of business burned down; my other 3xgr grpa was brought to court for abusive behaviour of his wife (his second, not y ancestor), who was so afraid of him that she wouldn't come to schul on a holy day (she was living apart from him), and the whole of his threatening letter was published; Benjamin Disraeli was claimed to have come from Exeter and the brother of my two Lazarus 3xgr grpas was quoted as saying he could remember Disraeli's father, who was a general dealer. As for more mysteries - yes, those turn up, too! And some are solved. Eve

Oops! I thought Trove was free - I thought it was the site I'd used before for Aussie papers for which I had not paid. Eve > Hi Eve and others > > In addition to Trove, those with ancestors in Australia/ New Zealand might like to try the totally FREE Papers Past site. Often references to Australia as it was all just part of the British colonies, as well as news from ‘home’ (UK). >

> Actually, if you were made bankrupt you were almost certainly published in multiple newspapers and the gazette – as my 3xgreat grandfather was. Bankrupts were published, presumably, as a legal necessity, to notify creditors etc. I've found notices of bankruptcy for many members of my Lazarus family; both my Lazarus 3x gr grandfathers (brothers) were bankrupts, one at least twice and imprisoned the first time. Bankruptcy was so common in that quarter of my genealogy - even some who had done well went bankrupt -that I've modified my genealogy program so that I can "flag" it. I've wondered if bankruptcy was more common then than now - an accepted business strategy when it was harder to get loans at decent rates to tide one over difficult times, perhaps? Many other newspaper items that I turned up were court cases involving family members (not the same ones who went bankrupt!) who were creditors - that is, money lenders - to insolvents. Eve > > Cynthia > > (New Zealand) > > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Eve and others In addition to Trove, those with ancestors in Australia/ New Zealand might like to try the totally FREE Papers Past site. Often references to Australia as it was all just part of the British colonies, as well as news from ‘home’ (UK). Like you, I too have just recently learnt about the UK Newspapers site. New viewers of this site can get three free downloads, and then the subs are quite reasonable. After registering on the site you can save and organise various searches for future download: I have just bookmarked about 100 pages and then paid a modest sub for two days access. The download is for the entire page PDF on which your find is, which gives a bonus of background ‘news’ for those interested in the historical context. Only issues I had were with subscribing, the website rejected my details with my credit card which was rather odd, I needed to use another web browser. cheers Cynthia (New Zealand)