Hi Debbie, just curious about something you have alluded to in the following... "but on electoral registers it has also been recorded as > Shaffer and Sheffer. "... "and like the rest of > that branch of the family did not get naturalised when arriving," I was always under the impression that one needed to be a citizen of the country in order to vote. Wouldn't that mean that if your missing Hannah was on an electoral roll she must have been naturalised?? Or am I wrong in assuming the electoral roll in the UK only lists those eligible to vote? Or have I misunderstood altogether, and she wasn't on the roll herself? (we recently found someone in Australia who was on an electoral roll, but was struck off as soon as it was clear he couldn't prove Australian citizenship! Made very interesting reading!!) Lesley Melbourne, Australia

Yes, you had to be "British" to vote. The electoral register contains people who can vote and those who can serve on juries (not necessarily the same people). So, either the person was born in UK (or a dependency) or they were naturalised (Usually it was the husband who naturalised and the wife and any dependent children-those under 21 were included). Women were not on the register until they gained the right to vote, so not having a wife show (before 1918 for women of "means" and over 30, 1928 for women aged 21+) is no indication that they were not living there. Around naturalisation there was a lot of confusion-people included children who were British by birth, for example, not realising. One of my GGF's non-dependent children assumed he was British when his father naturalised even though he was out of the country and over 21 at the time. I don't think anyone bothered to check the truth of his declaration "The son of a naturalised British citizen". HTH Sherry On 28/01/2008, david and lesley <bbqman@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > I was always under the impression that one needed to be a citizen of the > country in order to vote. Wouldn't that mean that if your missing Hannah was > on an electoral roll she must have been naturalised?? Or am I wrong in > assuming the electoral roll in the UK only lists those eligible to vote? Or > have I misunderstood altogether, and she wasn't on the roll herself?

The subject of "closed" hospital records has been discussed on this list before. Please note that it IS now possible to apply for access to your ancestor's hospital records that are less than 100 years old under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act. Strictly speaking, the records are not closed but subject to restricted access. Once an application is made, the depositor (normally the Health Authority) and the record office will liaise to make a decision as to whether or not access can be permitted. So, Myra, when you contact the LMA, ask them about their FOI procedure, as it varies from record office to record office. A useful outline is available on the Surrey History Centre web site at http://tinyurl.com/3a95ly Regards Jill Regarding the information on patient records, the records for Colney Hatch are held at the London Metropolitan Archive and whilst you would be able to see the admissions and discharge registers for 1916, actual patient records are sealed for 100 years under UK privacy laws. When I was researching my gt-gt grandmother I was able to read the original medical notes as she died in 1901 - and have copies made.

Thanks for your posts. What I mean is, when my family arrived in the UK, they did not naturalise immediately and therefore were not on any register of any kind for years since they first arrived in the UK. With regards to Hannah the relative, yes her name is on the electoral registers from 1937, but it is her previous UK details (address etc) I am hoping to find, but it is possible she was not naturalised until the mid 1930s. I hope that clarifies things! B. Shiel

Hi all, I have just located the Denization Papers for my ggggranduncle from 1811. Could anyone suggest what sort of information am I likely to get in it?? Thanks Lesley Melbourne, Australia

It wasn't me who said that, I just replied to Bea, but a good point. Was thinking somewhere down the lines of that myself. My Great Grandfather naturalized in 1912 and the reason he gave to be British, was he wanted to vote. Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides On Jan 28, 2008 8:28 PM, david and lesley <bbqman@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > Hi Debbie, > just curious about something you have alluded to in the following... > > "but on electoral registers it has also been recorded as > > Shaffer and Sheffer. "... > "and like the rest of > > that branch of the family did not get naturalised when arriving," >

Hi Naomi, re your reply to Myra the copies of the records I received from Colney Hatch were for a relative that died there in Aug 1917, so the 100 years rule was not applied. as I said previously I received details of treatment on a day by day basis, a medical history, details of relatives, and photos taken of him. I understand that photos were taken of all patients, those there over a long period of time had more that one set. best wishes Susan Jacobs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naomi Fellerman" <nfellerman@projectd2k.com> To: <british-jewry@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Colney Hatch > Regarding the information on patient records, the records for Colney Hatch > are held at the London Metropolitan Archive and whilst you would be able > to > see the admissions and discharge registers for 1916, actual patient > records > are sealed for 100 years under UK privacy laws. > If you can get there, > it is well worth the visit. >

Dear Myra One of my gt-gt grandmother's also died in Colney Hatch and was buried in Edmonton Federation Cemetary. But it would depend on which synagogue or burial society your great-uncle belonged to. Regarding the information on patient records, the records for Colney Hatch are held at the London Metropolitan Archive and whilst you would be able to see the admissions and discharge registers for 1916, actual patient records are sealed for 100 years under UK privacy laws. When I was researching my gt-gt grandmother I was able to read the original medical notes as she died in 1901 - and have copies made. If you can get there, it is well worth the visit. However, it is worth contacting the enquiry team there for assistance on any information they hold. Kind regards Naomi Fellerman Edgware but currently at work in central London where it looks like rain again! Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:07:31 +1030 From: Myra & Peter Waddell <mpwaddell@aapt.net.au> Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Colney Hatch To: british-jewry@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <479C42CB.6090406@aapt.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi there you mostly cold, damp listers and readers, Here's my first posting to this digest from me - in sunny, warm (and warmer tomorrow) Adelaide, in South Australia. Talking of insanity - well Debbie (who's related to cousins of mine) and Phillip did mention their poor old ancestor who, as Eve says, probably just had some form of dementia - I received my great-uncle Leon Goldenberg's death certificate the other day and see that he died in Colney Hatch. I wondered whether anyone has any idea where he might have been buried in those days - 24th November, 1916, at age 40. I was hoping that there might be the name of one of his siblings or a parent on the certificate but, alas, the informant was the Medical Superintendent of Colney Hatch. Is there somewhere online where there might be lists of inmates or of those who died there? asks she hopefully. I was just hoping there might be more information I can get from somewhere. I look forward to a reply - or two. Myra.

Yes, Ann, that's the family. Isaac Schwersensky died Dec Quarter 1873, age 74, in Birkenhead, Cheshire. He married Hannah Isaacs on 23 Jan 1839. I've got 8 children, 2 born Canterbury - Philip and Elizabeth- and 6 born Liverpool - Nathaniel, Fanny (married Heilbut), Joshua, Marcus, Phoebe (married Somers), Marian. Joshua Schwersensky witnessed Nathaniel Isaacs' signature on the Codicil to Nathaniel's Will (Codicil dated 26 December 1870). I don't know of any connection of the Schwersensky name with South Africa, but Nathaniel Isaacs and his Solomon uncles certainly have a connection. Sigi McMahon Australia

Dear listers, Many thanks to all who took the trouble to reply to my query and I have emailed the London Metropolitan Archives to see whether they hold records specific to my great-uncle Leon Goldenberg. I've also looked up various records in Barnet - without finding any relevant information but much of interest just the same. I've tried looking for West Ham burials or Edmonton burials online (in case he was buried there but I don't even know whether the authorities knew he was Jewish - with a name like Goldenberg!!!!) but without success so I guess I'll just wait for the LMA to reply and take it from there. I'll let you all know how I get on. Thanks again. Myra in South Australia.

I had problems following Sigi's line but my Schwersensky's are Issac born 1799 Prussia, died 1873 (Liverpool I think) son Nat born 1844, and daughters were Phoebe (1856) Elizabeth (1842) and Fanny (1846), all Liverpool. A son Joshua took the surname Davis. Phoebe married George Somers which is the line I was interested in following. I would be interested to know if there is a South Africa connection. Ann Jensen Australia

Hi Sigi I'm very interested in people in the Cape with the name Solomon or Solomons. My main research is the Norden family. The three below are definitely in the Cape. 1 & 3 are of particular interest to me. 2 is simply one I've kept in case it ties in. However, there are also Solomon(s) who married into the extended family in England. In view of a chunk of the Norden family being in the Cape it has always seemed to me that some of the Solomon(s) in England could also be connected to the Solomon(s) in the Cape. If you want to pursue that one I will copy and paste their details. Additionally I'm aware of Henry Napthali Solomon, proprietor of a Jewish boys' boarding school at Edmonton. He later moved his school to Hammersmith. This happens to be where the parents of my Cape settler Nordens moved in the 1820's from the area around the Tower of London. Henry Solomon and previously been a headmaster of JFS. Please let me know whether or not you can see any connections. Details below. Best wishes Hazel Hazel Dakers, London UK www.hazeldakers.co.uk Researching: NORDEN (London & South Africa); HEIMANN (Luegde, Germany and South Africa); GOLD (Zgierz and Lodz, Poland), BIRNBAUM (Zgierz and Lodz, Poland) 1. Descendants of Fanny (Failke) Nussbaum 1 Fanny (Failke) Nussbaum b: Oct 1805 in Nieder Aula, Hessen Kassel, Cuhrhessen, Germany d: 23 Mar 1875 in Bethulie, S. Africa (My Gt Gt Gt Grandmother) .. +Jacob Heilbronn m: Abt. 1833 d: Abt. 1834 in Germany ...... 2 Marian Meintje Minka Heilbron (Bronen) b: 1834 in Germany d: May 1863 in Aliwal North .......... +Louis Norden b: Unknown m: 16 May 1850 in Bathurst Street, Grahams Town, Albany, S. Africa d: Unknown *2nd Husband of Fanny (Failke) Nussbaum: .. +Edward Solomon b: 1814 m: 08 Jun 1849 in Beaufort Street Grahamstown d: 02 Feb 1866 in Aliwal North ******************************* ...... 2 Sarah Solomon b: 1847 in Aliwal North d: 01 Feb 1941 in Cape Jewish Aged Home, Cape Town .......... +Bernhard Arnholz b: 1836 in Germany m: 22 Apr 1866 in Port Elizabeth d: 30 Aug 1908 in Port Elizabeth 2. Descendants of Benjamin Solomon 1 Benjamin Solomon .. +Harriet ...... 2 Richard Edward Solomon b: 24 Jun 1855 in Bedford, E. Cape South Africa 3. Descendants of E. Solomons 1 E. Solomons b: Unknown d: Unknown ...... 2 Saul Solomons b: Unknown d: Unknown .......... +Ester Norden b: Unknown m: 08 Jun 1853 in King Williamstown, British Kaffraria d: Bef. 1866 "Married at King Williamstown British Kaffraria on Wednesday 8th June 1853 by the Rev. F. Fleming, Mr. Saul Solomons, youngest son of E. Solomons Esq, Solomon's Row, Surrey, to Esther Norden, eldest daughter of Mark Norden Esq, late of Graham's Town." (Esther was sister to my Gt Gt Grandfather, Louis Norden as in 1, above) Message: 3 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:21:56 +1030 From: "Sigrid McMahon" <tesi@esc.net.au> Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Solomon London Jewry To: <BRITISH-JEWRY@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <007901c86137$37f35a90$5b29887b@ownerslobuqpci> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello all, I hope this makes it to the list! I'm trying to trace the numerous children of Nathaniel Solomon and Phoebe de Metz. I've confirmed Edward (1774-1855), married Rachel Joseph Saul (1776-1852) the St. Helena connection, married 3x on St. Helena Island Joseph (-1861) married Hannah Moss on St. Helena Island and in 1831 moved to Capetown Benjamin, married on St. Helena Island, and remarried in South Africa Lewis Gideon (abt 1789-1868, our ancestor, who dropped the Solomon surname) married Julia Magnus on St. Helena Island I'm now trying to confirm Lenie, who was Saul's favourite sister. Since most sources name Lenie as mother of the explorer/adventurer Nathaniel Isaacs (1808-1872), I obtained copy of his Will. In his Will Nathaniel refers to "my sister Hannah Scheversensky" (which should read Schwersensky). The BJ records give the parents of Hannah Schwersensky with Isaac Isaacs and Elizabeth Solomon. Since Hannah and Nathaniel were siblings, could Elizabeth equal Lenie? Regards, Sigi McMahon No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release Date: 2008/01/26 03:45 PM

The Jewish Chronicle (UK) has an amazing amount of colonial news in it. I had ancestors who were in Bendigo for a time and they were often mentioned. Just search for Bendigo or Melbourne or Sydney and you will be surprised how much communication there was. Good luck Dinah Harvey

>I have just located the Denization Papers for my ggggranduncle from 1811. Could anyone suggest what sort of information am I likely to get in it??< In my experience nothing of genealogical interest beyond the name of the person(s) and the date of Denization. Angela

Debbie thanks for your message and I'd be very interested to know what resources you may have. I am curious to learn if she married in the UK, then I could get the Hebrew marriage cert & the UK one, but suspect she married before she came here given her age. I am also curious to learn of her surname before she got married. The first name of the relative was Hannah, her surname at the time of her death was Schaffer, but on electoral registers it has also been recorded as Shaffer and Sheffer. She died in London in 1942 aged 60 and the only information the cemetery has is her last known address (in E3). Her stone does not name her father's surname only his Hebrew first names. Her husband's name at the time of his death was Lewis but it has been recorded on previous electoral registers as Louis. I do not know the names of their children but there was a son and more than one daughter. Not sure about the husband she married but I believe Hannah herself came from Belarus/Russian Empire. Hannah is not listed in the JC in any shape or form, and like the rest of that branch of the family did not get naturalised when arriving, and I have not yet checked the UK 1901 or 1891 censuses. The E3 address I found for her in the local archives only lists her as living there for after 1937. It is highly likely she lived in the east end before 1937, but where I do not know. So any clues that lead to her marriage, her original surname and her former address/es in London would be brilliant! Thank you for any help you could give, much appreciated, B.Shiel

The doyen of S A research, Dr Saul Issroff, kindly pointed out a couple of mistakes I made in my recent posting about S A research. 1) Jewishgen host SA SIG but they certainly do not 'run' it! Dr Issroff oversees it, with help of Roy Ogus, Mike Getz and Bramie Lenhoff who is the moderator, and Roger Harris is the webmaster. 2) Susbcriptions are only need to get the printed copy of the newsletter. Not to sign up to the SIG. I consider it well worth £20 annually to receive a priinted copy of the Newsletter. There will doubtless be an apportunity at the forthcoming Chicago Conference to attend a SA SIG meeting. I apologise for these errors. Miriam Margolyes New York

Debbie from the Hebrides and I have a mutual problem and need some help about Hebrew names.We are trying to find out if two of our ancestors were brothers. My ancestor is Michael BENJAMIN of Gravel Lane - Menachem Menke ben Simcha Her ancestor is Abraham BENJAMIN of the Minories - Abraham ben Simcha There is also an 1818 marriage for an Esther bat Mr. Jacob ben Simcha to a Joseph ben Tsebi Hirsh NA Getz (Yates?) so Mr. Jacob could be another brother. We are trying to find out if they were brothers. They were close enough in age to be older and younger brothers. They were both members of the New Synagogue where Michael married in 1793 and when the children of both were born and there are similarities in family names. I have been through the marriages and births for the New Synagogue and found men referred to as Simcha (Michael and Abraham and this Jacob are the only three referred to as ben Simcha), Mr. Simcha, Simcha HaLevi, Simcha Cohen and Simcha Lazer Somewhere in the back of my mind I think someone told me that sometimes names were given so there would be no confusion. Sometimes the extra name referred to origins, address or occupation (I have a Behr Hatter in my BARNETT family and he was a Hatter). Can anyone out there give us a lesson on this subject? Could these men be brothers? Hope you can help as I have a similar problem with Naphtali Hirsh and Mr. Napthtali Hirsh. Keira Lockyer country Victoria

Quite a few Listers are enquiring about South Africa (RSA). Jewishgen runs an excellent Discussion Group with newsletter, email: safrica@lyris.jewishgen.org It costs £20 annually to belong to the Society: I strongly recommned joining if you do have rellies there. A great many of my rellies from Sunderland & Newcastle & Liverpool went to RSA in the 1880s. It's not an easy place to research (I can recomend a terrific researcher if you write to me privately) but one excellent source is the online National Archives of RSA. http://www.national.archives.gov.za/ On the Left of the screen you see Search National Automated Archival Information Retrieval System (NAIRS) click that & you're taken to a regional List. Click on a region & the search screen allows you to use several keywords. TAB covers the Jo'burg area (as was) now Gauteng; it is worth checking all of them. Once you have the File Info, you need a local researcher to actually get the info & photocopy. It's getting much harder as new rules have been imposed, but it can be done. South Africa's Jewish community is dwindling: many of emigrated to Australia, Canada & New Zealand. The search continues. Best-Miriam Margolyes New York

Hi Myra According to the Hospital Records Database at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/search.asp, Colney Hatch patient admission and discharge registers, 1851-1985, are held at the London Metropolitan Archives. Jill Staines, Middx Is there somewhere online where there might be lists of inmates or of those who died there? asks she hopefully. I was just hoping there might be more information I can get from somewhere.

Hello all, I hope this makes it to the list! I'm trying to trace the numerous children of Nathaniel Solomon and Phoebe de Metz. I've confirmed Edward (1774-1855), married Rachel Joseph Saul (1776-1852) the St. Helena connection, married 3x on St. Helena Island Joseph (-1861) married Hannah Moss on St. Helena Island and in 1831 moved to Capetown Benjamin, married on St. Helena Island, and remarried in South Africa Lewis Gideon (abt 1789-1868, our ancestor, who dropped the Solomon surname) married Julia Magnus on St. Helena Island I'm now trying to confirm Lenie, who was Saul's favourite sister. Since most sources name Lenie as mother of the explorer/adventurer Nathaniel Isaacs (1808-1872), I obtained copy of his Will. In his Will Nathaniel refers to "my sister Hannah Scheversensky" (which should read Schwersensky). The BJ records give the parents of Hannah Schwersensky with Isaac Isaacs and Elizabeth Solomon. Since Hannah and Nathaniel were siblings, could Elizabeth equal Lenie? Regards, Sigi McMahon