Hello Debbie Search for marriage for Hannah Moss and look at June quarter 1843 possible spouse is Moses Philip. Mary > I wonder if anyone could help me, been stuck on this puzzle for a number of > years. > > My great great grandfather was Philip PHILLIPS also known on census as James > PHILLIPS, Philip J PHILLIPS and on two of his children's marriage Phineas > PHILLIPS. On his children's birth certificate mother's name is Ann MOSS or > Annie MOSS. Philip PHILLIPS (name on death certificate) died 1889 Mile End > Old Town, London age 45 (may be a few years too young). In 1901 Annie/Ann > reverted to the name Hannah PHILLIPS, I found her on the Jewish Hospital > Records as Hannah PHILLIPS. > > The interesting thing is that on the two census in which he was with his > 'wife' he is down as being born in Carmarthen Wales, as far as my research > as shown there were no settlement of Jews in Wales at that time, so he > either wasn't a Jew then or his parents were travelers. > > I have never been able to find a marriage for them and I have tried, I can > only assume they either didn't get married, or the names were spelt wrong so > I can't find them. I had an idea if I could find their burial I could then > maybe find out parents names etc. > > Three of the children married in the East London Synagogue, so they were > brought up Jewish. I found out that the East London Synagogue was a United > Synagogue so I searched cemetery by cemetery by Philip PHILLIPS and Phineas > PHILLIPS nothing. > > Can anyone advise me if they married around the Mile End, Whitechapel area > what synagogue would have been the likely place, prob. after 1861 but before > 1868. Do you know, if the family were affiliated to the East London > Synagogue where the cemetery would have been, the East London Synagogue > opened in 1889. > > Hannah PHILLIPS (Annie PHILLIPs on death certificate) died in 1915 Merchant > Street, Poplar, aged 71 (think that maybe a few years too young from earlier > census) > > I know its a lot to ask but every so often I try and see if something extra > turns up in the hope one day I can find my great great grandparents > ancestry. > > Thanks for reading > > Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides Snowing and Cold > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes. You are right the age was given as 23, but as they are not always that reliable I thought it worth a risk. However, the timeframe seems too late, as you say. I did wonder about a marriage in the Netherlands for Selina and Henry BUT I have no idea why that came into my mind. Inspiration or complete insanity? Sherry On 02/02/2008, Miriam Margolyes <75342.3217@compuserve.com> wrote: > I have to say I doubt it's the right one because apart from the > name being sustantially different, the age given on burial is 23: > Mrs. Mary FRIEND would have been 32 at the time of her death. > > Her last child with Henry was Rebecca, born Sep 1870. > The next wife (Selina FRANKEL) gave birth to Etty on > 31 Jan 1876. So presumably, the second marriage should have > taken place no later than c. May 1875.

< . .because the age gap between her and her brother/s was a good 20 years, and her father was at least 55 when she was born. Is this common, for children from the Russian Empire to have such old dads?> As a rule of thumb, I generally assume that the span of childbearing was 25 years in the 19th century. So a gap of 20 years between siblings would not be impossible. Nor would a father aged 55 - leaving aside the biological fact that men normally remain fertile into old age, as long as his wife was younger than he was, it is entirely possible. A quick glance at my family tree showed my gggf becoming a father again at the age of 52, at which time his wife was 42 and had been having children for 23 years. Family sizes and patterns seemed to change quite abruptly from the start of the 20th century, and the families of 10-12 children gave way to families of 2-3 - usually more closely spaced. Interestingly this change pre-dated the "popularisation" of family planning methods by about 20 years but one must assume that knowledge of how to limit family size was becoming widely known even before the pioneering work of people such as Marie Stopes. Beverly Bergman Camberley UK

Hi Miriam, Yesterday you asked about your "problem" of Henry FRIEND and his wives viz: Mary/Martha who is 28 in 1871 census and mother of Lipman (Jack), Rebecca & Etty (Henrietta) and Selina who is 28 in 1881 census and mother of 9 children starting with Dinah in Feb 1878. I said I would try searching my records for possible matches as you can't find either the death/burial of Mary/Martha or the marriage to Selina. On 7 July 1875 a Mary FRIEDENHAM was buried or died (as I never quite know if the date given is for the death or the burial). This comes from what is now UHC Gildersome records. Just wondering if this is worth further investigation. Best wishes Sherry (Salford LAN)

I don't know if this helps, but I have a Jane Phillips b. 1833 daughter of Pinchas Ha Levy and Elizabeth Hyam. She married Benjamin Benjamin 1852, and her first son Frederick Benjamin (1853) took the surname Phillips. I have not traced them forward. Ann Jensen, Australia

Oooh, what a mess I have here! I do hope you can comment on this messy post - please read on! With the help from British Jewry and eastern European archives, I have recently discovered, Hannah Swiedler, my 20 year old female relative (single) came to live in London in 1902. From what information I have her father (Moshe Yekutiel Svidler, aka Jekiel or Fekiel Swiedler according to her UK marriage cert in 1905) died in Russia before she came to live here. I think he was religious but not Hasidic. I don't have any information whatsoever about her mother from any archive in the UK or in eastern Europe, I guess it's possible her mother died in Russia too, and it is very hard for me to prove who her siblings were as my family moved from the Russian Empire all over the shot (including Uzbekistan!) also changing the way the family surname was spelt some even changing it completely, and were not listed in those early days in UK archives I've checked to date, they aren't even listed as living at a particular address which we in the family have always known was where descendents were later born & lived. But, I am hoping to receive her 1905 East London Shul Hebrew marriage cert shortly. What is confusing is, she had male siblings and I think I've now found out she had more than the family thought she had, but if I am right and I have tracked down 2 of her male siblings (who were NOT in the UK till 1911), then it's rather odd because the age gap between her and her brother/s was a good 20 years, and her father was at least 55 when she was born. Is this common, for children from the Russian Empire to have such old dads?!! And do you think it sounds like her mother was her father's second wife? What I am also wondering is do you think it was allowed or was likely that a 20 year old single Russian woman who could not speak English would travel all on her own to live in east London? I heard some time back, that a single man was not allowed to come to live here unless he was married or had family here already, so what were the rules about single women from the Russian Empire in 1902? If she had a brother who had come to live in London and who was already married either in London or in Russia before she arrived, would she have been allowed then to come to live here on those grounds? Or, do you think it was allowed/more likely that my 20 year old female relative came to live with aunts/uncles who perhaps were already here? And if so, why can't I find any information in the National Archives or in the Family Records Centre about them in 1902?!!!! Any comments would be most helpful! Thanks, B. Shiel

>>On 7 July 1875 a Mary FRIEDENHAM was buried or died (as I never quite know if the date given is for the death or the burial). This comes from what is now UHC Gildersome records. Just wondering if this is worth further investigation.>> Thank you Sherry. I will follow this up & get the death cert. I have to say I doubt it's the right one because apart from the name being sustantially different, the age given on burial is 23: Mrs. Mary FRIEND would have been 32 at the time of her death. Her last child with Henry was Rebecca, born Sep 1870. The next wife (Selina FRANKEL) gave birth to Etty on 31 Jan 1876. So presumably, the second marriage should have taken place no later than c. May 1875. Henry was also called Herman & Harris. The FRANKEL family have been called FRINKLE, FRENKEL & became FRANKLIN, where they exist in South Africa today. Thanks so much for looking for me. Miriam Margolyes New York

Thanks but Hannah Moss was born in about 1843, her first child Esther Mary PHILLIPS was born in 1867, I was looking between 1861 and 1867 as her marriage date. Thank you for looking Mary Debbie Bozkurt

Thank you Sherry, most helpful, as an aside my Great Grandfather was Morris and I spent a long time looking for him to discover on his marriage and birth certificate he was actually Moses too. Problem I and a lot of people have is my immediate family were poor so the chances of a head stone at least for my 2xG father is remote. I will keep on searching, I keep thinking both Annie and Philip must have had siblings and somewhere out in the world there is someone who is trying also to find their ancestors, we have yet just to find each other. Debbie Bozkurt, Stornoway about 6" of Snow nearly unheard of up here, getting dressed to play with Camera On Feb 2, 2008 7:22 AM, Sherry with Sky <SherryELanda@sky.com> wrote: > Good morning Debbie. > > I > of my Dad'c cousins was Morris on all the censuses but the birth > registration was for Moses.

Good morning Debbie. I will try to answer, at least in part. I am going to insert into your original message: Don't worry TOO much about the first names. As a general rule of thumb, what's on a birth certificate is often the closest thing to the "original" name. Censuses often record an anglicised version or an everyday name. For example she was Hannah but everyone called her Annie. For deaths it can be patchy depending on who informed. Children, may not even have known their parents "real" first names so they were registered the way the children had heard the family addressing them. This is true for all faiths but Jews do sometimes have the added complication of a Hebrew name and an English name. One of my Dad'c cousins was Morris on all the censuses but the birth registration was for Moses. My eldest aunt (non-Jewish) was known as Joan but actually registered as Murial Joan (if the surname hadn't been pretty rare and I hadn't got the precise DOB from my Mum I would not have found her in the index as Murial J). > > The interesting thing is that on the two census in which he was with his > 'wife' he is down as being born in Carmarthen Wales, as far as my research > as shown there were no settlement of Jews in Wales at that time, so he > either wasn't a Jew then or his parents were travelers. There have been Jews in Wales a LONG time! > > I have never been able to find a marriage for them and I have tried, I can > only assume they either didn't get married, or the names were spelt wrong so > I can't find them. I had an idea if I could find their burial I could then > maybe find out parents names etc. Well, they might have had a clandestine marriage (stille chuppah). Search our archives because this has been discussed a lot previously. Yes, a tombstone should give a patronymic, if there is a stone. A burial record doesn't usually give that information though (IME). > > Three of the children married in the East London Synagogue, so they were > brought up Jewish. I found out that the East London Synagogue was a United > Synagogue so I searched cemetery by cemetery by Philip PHILLIPS and Phineas > PHILLIPS nothing. That doesn't mean much though, I am afraid because the US cemetery search is not perfect and if you haven't got exactly the right name (as they have it) then you can fail to find. It took me forever to find one of my family and I know where they are buried! Try going directly to the United Synagogue Burial Society (contact details are on our website). > > Can anyone advise me if they married around the Mile End, Whitechapel area > what synagogue would have been the likely place, prob. after 1861 but before > 1868. Do you know, if the family were affiliated to the East London > Synagogue where the cemetery would have been, the East London Synagogue > opened in 1889. You're thinking too Christian :-) Geographical location has nothing to do with it. It's not like church marriages where you marry in the parish where you are resident (unless you get a license to marry elsehwere). You need to know where the groom was a member or attended services to know the most likely venue. Remember also that something like 10% of marriages failed to make it to the GRO Index. Having said that, for London, the chances of finding that missing set is reduced as many local registrars' lost records in WW2 and the GRO is the only existing copy of those marriage records. Not great news, I know, but try the USBS and see if they can find the graves and then you might be able to take it further. best wishes, Sherry (Salford, LAN-with a centimetre of snow on her car but almost none left on the road)

I wonder if anyone could help me, been stuck on this puzzle for a number of years. My great great grandfather was Philip PHILLIPS also known on census as James PHILLIPS, Philip J PHILLIPS and on two of his children's marriage Phineas PHILLIPS. On his children's birth certificate mother's name is Ann MOSS or Annie MOSS. Philip PHILLIPS (name on death certificate) died 1889 Mile End Old Town, London age 45 (may be a few years too young). In 1901 Annie/Ann reverted to the name Hannah PHILLIPS, I found her on the Jewish Hospital Records as Hannah PHILLIPS. The interesting thing is that on the two census in which he was with his 'wife' he is down as being born in Carmarthen Wales, as far as my research as shown there were no settlement of Jews in Wales at that time, so he either wasn't a Jew then or his parents were travelers. I have never been able to find a marriage for them and I have tried, I can only assume they either didn't get married, or the names were spelt wrong so I can't find them. I had an idea if I could find their burial I could then maybe find out parents names etc. Three of the children married in the East London Synagogue, so they were brought up Jewish. I found out that the East London Synagogue was a United Synagogue so I searched cemetery by cemetery by Philip PHILLIPS and Phineas PHILLIPS nothing. Can anyone advise me if they married around the Mile End, Whitechapel area what synagogue would have been the likely place, prob. after 1861 but before 1868. Do you know, if the family were affiliated to the East London Synagogue where the cemetery would have been, the East London Synagogue opened in 1889. Hannah PHILLIPS (Annie PHILLIPs on death certificate) died in 1915 Merchant Street, Poplar, aged 71 (think that maybe a few years too young from earlier census) I know its a lot to ask but every so often I try and see if something extra turns up in the hope one day I can find my great great grandparents ancestry. Thanks for reading Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides Snowing and Cold

Thanks muchly, Babs! Really appreciate your taking the time to look at the Returns! The site you suggested was VERY interesting, and has helped, not only with the general history of the Worms in Ceylon, but also how they link in to various family stories!! Thanks again Lesley Melbourne, Australia

Thanks for looking Ann, really appreciated!! Lesley Melbourne, Australia

Shalom Miriam, I have been following your letters and requests as I am in the middle of intensive Leeds research ! I did find (probably as you did) on the Leeds synagogue site, several chldren of Henry Friend whose name was also written as HARRIS. In the announcements the address is always Northfield Villas. 1. DINAH 2. HETTY (ETTY) 3.REBECCA 4. The lists incude grooms' families and addresses. On the burials list are Lena and Henry . http://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-UK/Leeds.htm Sincerely, Brenda Habshush, Kibbutz Sde Boker, Israel. -----Original Message----- From: british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Miriam Margolyes Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: British Jewry SIG Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] marriage FRIEND-FRANKEL aft 1870 Brick wall: can you help me leap over it? Henry FRIEND . born 1844 Gombin, Poland (sponge-maker, lived 2 Northfield Villas, Leeds, married Mary (Martha) SILVERBURG. In 1871, they were living in Leeds together. They had 3 children, Abraham, Lipman (Jack) & Rebecca, last born Sep 1870. Then he seems to have married again Selina (Lena) FRANKEL.. I know this from the birth certs of the children named below. They had 9 children -born between 1880 & 1897. Children were: Etty, Dinah, Jack, Isadore, Ethel, Cissie, Morris, Gertrude, Cyril. Selena died in 1919. Henry in 1908. But I cannot find either a death for Mary (1st wife) or a marriage for Selina. There is a Mary FRIEND who died in West Hartlepool aged 29 10a 103. That's not her (husband George, a stone mason.) Where can I search for the marriage: there's nothing in find my past.com If a synagogue marriage only, where would the Austhorizations be: in London, in Leeds? Help appreciated: Miriam Margolyes New Yorl Our website is at www.british-jewry.org.uk We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message . . Quality Bytes MailXpress Message: Spam? Click the link below http://192.168.240.2:16000/spam.php?spam=1&qid=00000000001b1e69 . -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date: 1/31/2008 8:30 PM . . DISCLAIMER: This mail message was scanned for malicious content by Quality Bytes Mail Security when leaving the gateway of Quality Bytes http://qb.q-bytes.com/qbms/?c=qb .

Hello, Miriam, Bear with me... Where has the name Mary/Martha SILVERBURG come from? Are you sure that Mary & Selina are not one and the same person? I know that the ages from 1871 Mary was 28, yet Selina in 1881 was 28. But, do you have anything else? Leeds in the 1870s can be a bit tricky regarding deaths/burials. For marriages it could be that a marriage authorisation exists at Beth Din. However, I think we need to narrow the search a bit or it'll cost a fortune for a search. Do you have a precise DOB for Rebecca (assuming her mother is Mary/Martha) and for Etty/Henrietta (I only have a 1875/1876 for her)? Let me know and I'll try searching the Leeds things I have again for "vague" matches, in case I have missed something somewhere. Best Sherry On 01/02/2008, Miriam Margolyes <75342.3217@compuserve.com> wrote: > Brick wall: can you help me leap over it? > > Henry FRIEND married Mary (Martha) SILVERBURG. They had 3 children, Abraham, Lipman (Jack) & Rebecca, > Then he seems to have married again Selina (Lena) FRANKEL.. I know this > from the birth certs of the children named below. > But I cannot find either a death for Mary (1st wife) or a marriage for > Selina. > Where can I search for the marriage: there's nothing in find my past.com > If a synagogue marriage only, where would the Austhorizations be: in > London, in Leeds?

Hi, At the time of my ancestor's marriage in the late 1800s, he had several older (unmarried) brothers, plus several younger unmarried half-brothers (his mother having re-married following his father's death). My question relates to the recording of brothers on a marriage authorisation certificate for the purpose of "yibum". Would younger half-brothers normally be recorded in such a situation? In Jewish law, is a half-brother considered the same as a full-blood brother? Thanks in advance. Simon (in Melbourne, AUS)

Brick wall: can you help me leap over it? Henry FRIEND . born 1844 Gombin, Poland (sponge-maker, lived 2 Northfield Villas, Leeds, married Mary (Martha) SILVERBURG. In 1871, they were living in Leeds together. They had 3 children, Abraham, Lipman (Jack) & Rebecca, last born Sep 1870. Then he seems to have married again Selina (Lena) FRANKEL.. I know this from the birth certs of the children named below. They had 9 children -born between 1880 & 1897. Children were: Etty, Dinah, Jack, Isadore, Ethel, Cissie, Morris, Gertrude, Cyril. Selena died in 1919. Henry in 1908. But I cannot find either a death for Mary (1st wife) or a marriage for Selina. There is a Mary FRIEND who died in West Hartlepool aged 29 10a 103. That's not her (husband George, a stone mason.) Where can I search for the marriage: there's nothing in find my past.com If a synagogue marriage only, where would the Austhorizations be: in London, in Leeds? Help appreciated: Miriam Margolyes New Yorl

< I am wondering if there is a kind person person could check the Consular Returns for any births or marriages in Ceylon for WORMS. In particular a suppoed birth there of a Samuel Lewis (or Lewis Samel) WORMS c 1837, a marriage for same c 1862 or birth of Worms children during 1863 - 1868.> Hi Lesley, Only had time for a very quick check for births c1837, searched 1835-40 without a hit for Samuel or Lewis Worms. May find time to search for the 1862 marriage and 1863-8 births later today, have to go out now. Cheers, Babs O'Connor Penrith, Australia

It's the first of the month. From time to time we post on the first of a month to remind people about our "rules". We're both really busy at the moment. As a result things have been slipping a bit, and we have not had as much time or patience as we would like and we feel we need to remind EVERYONE of our rules. We do NOT moderate this list. You are expected to moderate yourselves. This means sticking to the rules. If you can't we will moderate you as individuals. When we do this your messages get trapped and are only released when we allow them through, having vetted them. It's slow, it's tiresome, it takes our time and makes us grouchy, so stick to the rules and we can all be happy. Subject Lines: make them relevant, change them if you need to on a reply, DO NOT use DIGEST number blah as a subject line as this makes us really see red! If you reply to an email with ADMIN in the subject line-remove the word ADMIN as it is not for you to use. Signatures: Please sign your email and say where in the world you are. This helps people to answer you appropriately. A quick comment about the weather is fine but 20 lines on what you had for tea, how your neighbours garden is looking and what you are planning to wear to a Spring Ball is probably best left for personal replies. As a default the reply function defaults to list-so you are replying to everyone when you hit reply. Remembering this saves egg on your face :-) Snipping of previous emails is actively encouraged but please leave a line or two to remind us what the original poster said. Please CAPITALISE surnames, but not the whole name. Please also be specific about places, use Chapman codes for UK venues i.e. Leeds YKS or Liverpool LAN and if you are talking about places outside UK make sure it is obvious as there are sometimes several places with the same name around the world. The list remit is BRITISH Jewry. This includes dependencies, colonies, former colonies and member countries of the British Empire. However, be reasonable. We know the USA was once a colony but there are other lists dedicated to other areas and so they might be better places to post certain queries. Poland and Russia were never part of Britain. Emails about ancestors who came to Britain (in it's braodest sense) from there, or went there from Britain are fine. Emails about direct migration from one place outside of Britain to another are NOT within the remit of the list. We really don't want to be cranky with anyone so it would help us enormously if people could just stick to these rules and then we can put the headache tablets away and come out of our darkened rooms. Thanks for your understanding. Best wishes, Sherry & Jackye

Shalom Leslie, I came across a website about the Jews of Ceylon (Sri Lanca) and there is mention of archival material refering to the DE WORMS family. quote: "I have come across an interesting report on the Worms brothers activities in the Rothchilds estate in Ceylon:"(posted by Fiona Kumari Campbell) Write in "Google" "JEWS IN SRI LANCA" http://www.rothschildarchive.org/ib/articles/AR2004ceylon.pdf Brenda Habshush. -----Original Message----- From: british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kim and Barbara Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 11:54 PM To: british-jewry@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Consular Returns BDM Look Up Request < I am wondering if there is a kind person person could check the Consular Returns for any births or marriages in Ceylon for WORMS. In particular a suppoed birth there of a Samuel Lewis (or Lewis Samel) WORMS c 1837, a marriage for same c 1862 or birth of Worms children during 1863 - 1868.> Hi Lesley, Only had time for a very quick check for births c1837, searched 1835-40 without a hit for Samuel or Lewis Worms. May find time to search for the 1862 marriage and 1863-8 births later today, have to go out now. Cheers, Babs O'Connor Penrith, Australia Our website is at www.british-jewry.org.uk We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message . . Quality Bytes MailXpress Message: Spam? Click the link below http://192.168.240.2:16000/spam.php?spam=1&qid=00000000001b10c1 . -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.17/1252 - Release Date: 1/30/2008 8:51 PM . . DISCLAIMER: This mail message was scanned for malicious content by Quality Bytes Mail Security when leaving the gateway of Quality Bytes http://qb.q-bytes.com/qbms/?c=qb .