PETER SOLOMON <peter.solomon2@btinternet.com> wrote: I am trying to find what happened to the family of Alexander SOLOMON my g grandfather who was a furniture maker of 19 Austin Street, Bethnal Green, London in 1901. The family were descended from Dutch Ashkenazi who came to England around 1860. I lose track of them after 1901 and have no family history to fall back on. The family consisted of Clara (nee Brilleslyper) his wife, Saul b1884 ( my gdad died1917), Leah b 1885/6, Kate b 1886/7, Simon b1888/9, Millie b1889/90, David b1892/3, Annie b1893/4. Saul left home prior to 1901 and used the name James Welton. I have been told the family died out during and after WW1 but can find no record of this. Peter Solomon North Yorkshire, England

Debbie In the London Gazette 49 Hackney Road was owned by John Storey a timber merchants from at least 1887 until his death 1901. Phillip

Hi Debbie I note in the National Archives UK English Strand 2a that the Stamp Duty Certificate for ELIAS ISAACS 1911 shows he owned 39,43 and 45 Hackney Road as part of his estate. There is no reference to 49. Phillip

Being doing some research on Bankside, I feel so stupid, I went to CIPFA College in Borough for 3 years and used to walk along Bankside nearly everyweek without even knowing thats what it was called. We used to drink in the Anchor Pub nearby....small world. * I am very confused for the following reasons.* 1. According to Elizabeth Isaacs death certificate 1860 she died 45 Bankside, Moss Isaacs was living 1861 at 45 Bankside and in 1868. 2. The review on the Book on the House by the Thames says the family sold up to Moss Isaacs Scrap Merchant, but the House in question was 49 Bankside. 3. I have found notices that both Charles and Samuel Isaacs his brothers were tied to Bankside up to their deaths 1874 and 1889 respectively. Also Philip Isaacs, Samuel's son also was tied to Bankside until his death in 1891. 4. When Moss died he left the business to his son Henry but he was only 10. *Questions?* Do you know if Moss owned the whole stretch of Bankside and wether he leased Bankside Did Moss have his Iron works at Bankside in warehouses/wharfs In 1901 only 45 and 49 Bankside was standing some were demolished others were Wharfs. I wonder where you can get details of ownerships of buildings in the 1880s, found on line Moss Isaacs leasing building with his brother Elias in Hackney, going to Hackney Archives to see if I can find document. Its very interesting, have you read the book? Debs

Hi Rosemary, It depends entirely on the individual family how they treat people who "married out". Mine seemed to have been fairly understanding in this matter, but I also guess it may have something to do with them being dirt poor English Jews. They clung together like limpets, still do. My ggreat aunt Sophie Sloman married out in 1857, and living with her at the time of the 1861 census is her brother Moss Sloman, he is apprenticed to Sophie's gentile husband as a shoemaker. Cheers, Su in Armidale NSW On 23/02/2008, at 8:45 PM, Rosemary Rees wrote: > Dear All > > I have been following this thread with interest. > > My story is sad but , as far as I can tell, not comforting. <snip> > > I now understand that this was very unlikely as when > someone 'married out' the service of the dead would be read and from > that time onward they would be dead to their religion and to their > family. Whilst intellectually I can understand this, on an emotional > level I find it hard. Can anyone please tell me how common this was > in the 19th century? > > Best wishes > > Rosemary

There was also the anomaly that some people considered it " marrying out" if one came from a Sephardic (background) and the partner came from an Ashkenazi back ground even though both were Jewish. Louise who is a mixture of both.-----

rosemary wrote: <I now understand that this was very unlikely as when someone 'married out' the service of the dead would be read and from that time onward they would be dead to their religion and to their family.> As others have said, this would depend entirely on the family. In my family it seems to have been not unusual for someone to marry "out", and relationships appear to have been maintained even several generations ago. My gr grandparents were cousins, but after my gr grandmother died my gr grandpa took up with a woman who probably wasn't a Jew. My grandmother was also married to a cousin but left him for my non-Jewish grandfather and was still part of her Jewish family. I never heard of it being an issue. One of my gr grandpa's sisters was apparently something of a black sheep, but I suspect that wasn't so much because she married out, as that she married a man several years younger than herself, he barely out of the cradle. They appear in a census record living together before they were married. I suspect she got knocked up and married down, as she came from a "respectable" family of opticians and he was a butcher. A cousin of a generation earlier married out, but it is evident that he maintained close ties with his brother, an officer and briefly president of is synagogue. Eve Richardson (Who worked out that a gr gr aunt in another branch of her family was the black sheep because she married "out" - that is, she married a Catholic instead of C of E)

Hi, Thanks to you and Ely for replying. I will check with the DORMAN descendants and let you know. The information Ihave is kind of sketchy at the moment. Regards Angie Searching: RAYKH-ZELIGMAN/RICHMAN, Stakliskes, Lithuania/Leeds COHEN, Sakiai, Lithuania/Leeds MAGIDOWITZ, Jurbarkas, Lithuania/Leeds KASSIMOFF, Rezekne, Latvia/Leeds From: Sanderson Family sanderson_family@ntlworld.com I have a Jack Dorman on my tree, who would have been around the right age. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Dear All I have been following this thread with interest. My story is sad but , as far as I can tell, not comforting. My g grandfather, Joseph Woolf was a Jew and orphaned as a child of six. In 1865, when he was 21, he married Elizabeth Jane Holmes ( his landlady's daughter) at Marylebone Register Office. His grandmother, Alice Woolf, died in 1876 in her 101st year, by which time Joseph and Elizabeth had several children. Alice lived in Southwark, her two daughters Sophia and Maria who placed the notices of her death (thank you, Jewish Victorian and the correspondent who discovered this for me) lived in Sheffied St WC and Kennington Park Road SE. Joseph and his young family lived in Boston Place Islington. Idly speculating on whether Alice would have known her great grandchildren (they all lived in London and not too far apart), or Sophia and Maria would have known their great nephews and great nieces (amongst whom was my grandfather) I now understand that this was very unlikely as when someone 'married out' the service of the dead would be read and from that time onward they would be dead to their religion and to their family. Whilst intellectually I can understand this, on an emotional level I find it hard. Can anyone please tell me how common this was in the 19th century? Best wishes Rosemary (in grey and drizzly North Yorkshire) Researching WOOLF, JEWELL, MORDECAI > > > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk > We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. > > British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message Rosemary A Rees 3 College Fold Rathmell Settle North Yorkshire BD24 0LQ

Nothing is black and white. My aunt married "in" to a nasty Jewish man who gambled and abused and cheated on her. My grandparents told her if she married this man, she was dead to them and they sat shiva for her as if she were dead. A year later, she left the man, she was welcomed back into my grandparents' house with open arms. As an aside and maybe as atonement (smile), they continued living together for the next 35 years or so even after my aunt remarried and had a family. This was in the 20th century. Jackye in Carlsbad after a nice rain > Idly speculating on whether Alice would have known her great grandchildren > (they all > lived in London and not too far apart), or Sophia and Maria would > have known their great nephews and great nieces (amongst whom was my > grandfather) I now understand that this was very unlikely as when > someone 'married out' the service of the dead would be read and from > that time onward they would be dead to their religion and to their > family. > Best wishes > > Rosemary > > (in grey and drizzly North Yorkshire) > > Researching WOOLF, JEWELL, MORDECAI

I came across what looked like an interesting twist on these stories while doing my research. In going through Ontario births, I found a case where a non-Jewish farmer's daughter had a child out of wedlock. Judging by the name it appeared that the father of the child was a Jew. Later, going through the old records of Holy Blossom Temple, here in Toronto, I found a man who appears to have been that baby, called to aliyah in the synagogue. It interested me on a couple of counts, 1) that a relationship had been maintained between the father and child, and 2) that a child of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother was accepted at that time by the congregation. Eve Richardson (wishing it looked less like winter outside)

Dear Debbie, so many people researching their jewish families have found that their mother or grandmother married aout and the chldren and grandchildren were never recognised after that. Now people are beginning to seach for theirorigins. I was able to help someone to prove he was jewish going back four generations on the maternal line. His Jewish great grandmother had married a Protestant and so had his grandmother, and mother . He felt uncomfortable going to chapel but the priest told him he would grow out of it. He did. He returned to the religion of his great grandparents and is now jewish again and a happily observant one too. Louise ----- Original Message -----

Hello Debbie. I had two instances similar to your family. At least yours had a bitter sweet ending. My grandmother, Rebecca ISAACS [1879] became pregnant by a non-Jewish man, my grandfather, Edward TINGEY. Consequently she was banished by her father, Humphrey ISAACS [1851]. The 'twist' in my family is that Humphrey ISAACS himself married out, to a non-Jewish girl, Catherine HEARLEY [1842], a Catholic and they didn't get married until 1905, three years after my grandmother married. And he married in a Roman Catholic ceremony. According to my mother, and despite Humphrey's banishment, Rebecca's mother continued to love and welcome her daughter. Humphrey kept up the banishment until his death, even passing all his goods and jewellery over to the Jewish side of the family. I'd love to know the full story of this family of ISAACS. Kind regards. Barbara. Suffolk, England.

Remember that the child would have been considered Jewish because his mother was. So, it is not such a stretch for the grandmother to welcome him. Diane Jacobs Somerset, NJ -----Original Message----- From: british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Debbie Bozkurt Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:38 AM To: british-jewry@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Sad but somewhat Comforting story Had to share this short story with you. Was doing some research on my family of ISAACS and found one of the young teenagers had fallen pregnant in the late1870s, I think to a non-jewish local boy. I traced them through a number of census and found the young baby with a family, out of London, the 17 mother as a wet nurse and the lad still with his parents......isn't it always the way. I found the two 'sweethearts' had married once the boy had become of age, he was a couple of years younger than her in 1885. The husband now had a very poor paying job and the girl from a reasonable start in life seemed to have lost her mother and family, It seemed really sad. I then was searching the Jewish Chronicles for her mother and other siblings and there unfort. was a death notice for her Grandson age 18 the young baby born to her unmarried daughter. It was sad that he died but from the notice the Grandmother had welcomed him back into the fold, the young boy had gone to a Jewish School and was buried in a Jewish Cemetery. Now I know others might not share my opinion but in Victorian days it took a lot of forgiving for the Grandmother to welcome back the Grandchild and somewhat heartening that spiritually he was allowed back into the fold. Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides Our website is at www.british-jewry.org.uk We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Had to share this short story with you. Was doing some research on my family of ISAACS and found one of the young teenagers had fallen pregnant in the late1870s, I think to a non-jewish local boy. I traced them through a number of census and found the young baby with a family, out of London, the 17 mother as a wet nurse and the lad still with his parents......isn't it always the way. I found the two 'sweethearts' had married once the boy had become of age, he was a couple of years younger than her in 1885. The husband now had a very poor paying job and the girl from a reasonable start in life seemed to have lost her mother and family, It seemed really sad. I then was searching the Jewish Chronicles for her mother and other siblings and there unfort. was a death notice for her Grandson age 18 the young baby born to her unmarried daughter. It was sad that he died but from the notice the Grandmother had welcomed him back into the fold, the young boy had gone to a Jewish School and was buried in a Jewish Cemetery. Now I know others might not share my opinion but in Victorian days it took a lot of forgiving for the Grandmother to welcome back the Grandchild and somewhat heartening that spiritually he was allowed back into the fold. Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides

Angie, M would normally indicate Married, but the image clearly has S, for Single. 1901 census RG13-4220 folio 116 page 7 79 Templar Street, Leeds Harris BLOOM Head M 60 Tailor Russia (Russian Subject) Annie BLOOM Wife M 53 Russia (Russian Subject) Jack DORMAN Stepson S 25 Hawker in small ware Russia (Russian Subject) 1891 census RG12-3688 folio 112 page 19 8 Noble Street, Leeds Annie DORMAN Head Wid 40 Grocer Russia Flory DORMAN Daur S 18 Tailoress Russia Jacob DORMAN Son S 14 Tailor Russia [M = married, S = Single] Regards Elly On 21/02/2008, Angie Elfassi <aelfassi51@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi, > > An Australian cousin of mine is enquiring about the DORMAN name. > > I found on 1901 census - > > 1525 BLOOM ANNIE W F 53Z Russia Templar Street 79 > 1525 DORMAN JACK ST M 25 Hawker/Smallware Russia Templar Street 79 > 1525 BLOOM HARRIS H M 60 Tailor Russia Templar Street 79 > > all with the same address > > Would the notation ST M after Jack Dorman's name mean Stepson Male? > Also does anyone have any more DORMAN information.

On 2/21/08, british-jewry-request@rootsweb.com < british-jewry-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Harold Lewin's transcription of such records as do exist shows the > marriage you mention to be between Jacob Lazarus, son of Raphael (Yaakov b. > Raphael) and Sarah Lyons daighter of Yehuda Leib (Sara b. Yehuda Leib) but > no addresses are shown, and there is > no other information. Oops, sorry, obviously a silly question. I was very excited at finding this information of the marriage and really hoped I could find further details on the parents. I was unaware that the marriage registers/certificates held little or no information. Thank you Eve, for the direction on the archives. thank you Janis

I have a Jack Dorman on my tree, who would have been around the right age. This is an extract from my tree: Descendants of Samuel Dove 1 Samuel Dove b: 1861 in Vilnius d: 04 Feb 1902 in 58 Humbersland Road, Leicester .. +Rachel Thomas b: 1863 in Vilnius ........ 2 Jane Dove b: 1883 in Russia ............ +Jack Dorman m: 04 Sep 1906 in Leicester ........ 2 Joshua Dove b: 1885 in Russia ........ 2 Amelia Dove b: 1886 in Russia d: Jan 1925 in "The Hall", St Nicholas on Wade, Birchington ........ 2 Minnie Dove b: 1888 in Russia ........ 2 Maurice Dove b: 1892 in Leicester ----- Any connection? Danielle Sanderson Original Message ----- From: "Angie Elfassi" <aelfassi51@yahoo.com> To: "British Jewry" <british-jewry@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] DORMAN > Hi, > > An Australian cousin of mine is enquiring about the DORMAN name. > > I found on 1901 census - > > 1525 BLOOM ANNIE W F 53Z Russia > Templar Street 79 > 1525 DORMAN JACK ST M 25 Hawker/Smallware Russia Templar Street > 79 > 1525 BLOOM HARRIS H M 60 Tailor Russia > Templar Street 79 > > Also does anyone have any more DORMAN information.

<So I take it transcriptions were done prior to 1941 ?> Harold and Miriam Lewin completed their monumental work in 2004. They transcribed the GS records from the LDS microfilms - fortunately the records were not destroyed when the synagogue was bombed, although I do not know where they were stored prior to being filmed by the LDS (or indeed where the originals are now). Beverly Bergman Camberley UK

I have a couple of copies of the register which someone kindly sent me, she had got them of a third party so I don't know how they came about. I have a birth and a marriage 1832 and 1830. It doesn't give much detail as I suspect the microfilm is just a copy of the register, inf act would the copies have come from the micro film. I find the births were more useful as of yet there is no full transcription of the births of the GS, though I think Harold Lewin maybe working on that. Debs Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides > were not destroyed when the synagogue was bombed, although I do not know