Dear All Since posting yesterday, I now have information from the Naturalisation Files for Joe(b.1878) and Nat(1889-1944) RUBINSTEIN. Thanks Miriam - I was looking at how to order the files on-line and then a contact of mine in London was coincidentally visiting Kew! It's frustrating, I used to live near there in Richmond. I'm still stuck on my gf's details though - Jack TISMAN/TISHMAN(1904-1998) - his cert no begins within an AZ and I've heard that if this is the case, a file is no longer. There were no details at Kew and they said to contact Seacole House for O-Z surnames(1934-1948) - which I've already done and keep chasing up every few weeks. The place of birth for Joe and Nat is Chamichly - province of Minsk - Chmitchin was crossed out. I've searched for this place name and haven't found anything similar. Does this name sound familiar to anyone? I know that their sister who also lived in London, Rosie MULLISH(1894-1954) was born in Babruysk. Thanks Naomi Ogin Brisbane Searching: BENDEL, BIRK, BRESNARK, BRILLIANT, COVERMAN, DAVIDOVITCH, DECORVICK, FELDMAN, GLASS, GREENBERG, GOLD, GROSSMAN, KATZ, KRAMER, KOSSANSKY, LEBIS, LISEYZNSKI, MANN, MELNICK, NATHAN, OGIN, POLIAKOFF, RABIN/OVITCH, RANDALL, RUBE/INSTEIN, STEIN/STONE, TISMAN/TISHMAN/TIESMAN/TESMAN, WILSON/WOOLFSON

Hello Listers Perhaps someone can help me solve a long-standing question. I am trying to verify a time of arrival in England for an ancestor Heinrich (aka Henry) SAMUEL/S. Heinrich was born around 1817 in Germany. He married (date of marriage not known) a Chanah (aka Hanna/Hannah)SCHELINSKI , born 1834. They emigrated to England but we don't know if it was before or after marriage. Their eldest child, Fanny Eva SAMUEL/S was born in 1852. I am trying to obtain a birth certificate for Fanny Eva. They went on to have 4 more children Louis (1854), Joseph (1861), Leah (1863) and Rachel (1867). We have all the information about the marriages etc of Fanny Eva and all her siblings but determining where and when Fanny Eva was born would be marvellous. Fanny Eva married Abraham Rose in the Hambro Synagogue in 1872 and we have the ketubah. Any suggestions? I wondered if the book recently published by Harold Pollins might have this birth registered. Many thanks Naomi Barnett Melbourne, Australia

The trouble is even if I bought the certificates I could not prove one of them was mine as I don't have the wedding certificate to isolate the father. I think I traced the PHILLIPS mentioned through the census but I may try again as its a long time since I did it and I have much more experience than when I first started on this quest! Something I never tried before was the parish records it would take out the non Jewish ones from my research. I spoke to a Rabbi Cousin of mine and she told me it would be unlikely that Philip Phillips family could have married in the synagogue (and all the children did) if Philip wasn't Jewish or converted. How he was born in Wales is a mystery to me then. Thanks for looking Debbie

Naomi, Is the secret to your lack of birth certificate the fact that on the 1871 census it says she was born in Prussia? If this census is accurate then the family must have arrived between 1852 and 1855. I am not sure that it is possible to narrow it any further, unless Henry was naturalised, then you might find a better date. Best Sherry I am trying to verify a time of arrival in England for an ancestor Heinrich (aka Henry) SAMUEL/S. Their eldest child, Fanny Eva SAMUEL/S was born in 1852. I am trying to obtain a birth certificate for Fanny Eva.

Naomi If you look at the 1861 census, a very badly transcribed Fanny Samuels says, Deu Natur BS, which leads me to believe she may have been born in Germany. Louis Samuels was born in Middlesex so perhaps the family came to London between the two birth dates. If you would like any further information from the 1861 census please contact me off line. Thanks Debbie Debbie Bozkurt Outer Hebrides

Dear Naomi, Your can order Naturalisation certificates to be downloaded from the National Archives in Kew - I recently did it and found it was a wonderful service - I literally had the whole certificates and parts sent to my computer - an excellent way of dealing with the tyranny of distance (Brisbane is a long way from London). Yes .. I know that it is an expensive service, but well worth the money. Good luck with your Rubinstein search. Kind regards, Miriam Pollak ex Sydney, now Cambridge, UK

>I am trying to verify a time of arrival in England for an ancestor Heinrich (aka Henry) SAMUEL/S. Heinrich was born around 1817 in Germany. He married (date of marriage not known) a Chanah (aka Hanna/Hannah)SCHELINSKI , born 1834.< The birth is not listed in Lewin, but..... Per 1871 census, Fanny was born in Germany c. 1853 and Lewis was born in England in 1856 ergo family arrived between those two dates.. Angela

Dear All I have found details of 'open' Naturalisation files for my gt uncles which are held at Kew. If anybody is planning to visit Kew and would be able to summarise the information on my behalf I would be very grateful. I am hoping that the details provide information about where they originally came from, full names of parents etc etc. According to the UK Archives site, these files can be requested for viewing at Kew and this can be actioned on-line. HO 144/1321/253415 Nationality and Naturalisation: Rubinstein, Joseph, from Russia. Resident in London. Certficate 25759 issued 31 December 1914. 1914 HO 144/1321/253416 Nationality and Naturalisation: Rubinstein, Nathan, from Russia. Resident in London. Certficate 25758 issued 31 December 1914. 1914 If you are able to assist, please contact me on a1steve@bigpond.com Thanks Naomi Ogin Brisbane Searching: BENDEL, BIRK, BRESNARK, BRILLIANT, COVERMAN, DAVIDOVITCH, DECORVICK, FELDMAN, GLASS, GREENBERG, GOLD, GROSSMAN, KATZ, KRAMER, KOSSANSKY, LEBIS, LISEYZNSKI, MANN, MELNICK, NATHAN, OGIN, POLIAKOFF, RABIN/OVITCH, RANDALL, RUBE/INSTEIN, STEIN/STONE, TISMAN/TISHMAN/TIESMAN/TESMAN, WILSON/WOOLFSON

At least three and possibly four of my great grandparents came from Suwalki Gubernia, which was in Poland until 1918 when part of it was ceded to Lithuania (the part round Mariampole, Kalvaria and Vistytis).  Names do indeed change and up to 1866 this Gubernia was called Augustow gubernia. Suwalki and Augustow were the two main towns in the area, and remained in Poland after 1918. British census and naturalisation records record use of both Suwalki and Augustow (three out of four great grandparents came over in the 1860’s and the 4th in the 1870’s), whilst records obtained from Suwalki records office showed one branch of the family came from Dalny Las on Lake Serwy near Augustow (shown in 1881 census as Augustow, and naturalisation record as Suwalki). Because Suwalki area was so close to Konigsberg (New East Prussia) and the Baltic, this afforded an easier escape route and many people from the area came to UK and US relatively early (pre 1880 rush). This is all rather similar to me telling people I live in Sutton/Surrey/England/UK (take your pick) when I go abroad. Jill Whitehead, Surrey (On editorial cttee of Landsman, the journal of the Suwalki Lomza interest group).

Thanks Terry - As usual you are very helpful. I have learnt not to assume anything hence the reason for my questions. The burial references are for the two sons of Benjamin JOSEPH. For Alfred JOSEPH it said Avraham ben Binyamin and for Henry it said Zvi ben Binyamin Yosef. Hence my suspicions. Keira Lockyer, Australia From: "Terry Newman" <tnewman@wix.com.au> You mentioned that Benjamin Joseph, your ancestor, at the time of burial, had the Hebrew name of Benyamin Yosef. It was very common for the Hebrew names for the first name and surname to be used when the person who made the burial arrangement didn't know the deceased's father's name. The usual format is first name son of father's first name.

Sorry, I typed 1972 instead of 1872, for the date of death of Sarah Yates, mother of Leopold Yates. Terry Newman Sydney, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Newman" <tnewman@wix.com.au> To: <british-jewry@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Leopold Yates

Keira You mentioned that Benjamin Joseph, your ancestor, at the time of burial, had the Hebrew name of Benyamin Yosef. It was very common for the Hebrew names for the first name and surname to be used when the person who made the burial arrangement didn't know the deceased's father's name. The usual format is first name son of father's first name. I always suggest that people don't assume that people's Hebrew names, in documents, are correct. I think, sometimes, they were made up, when the names were not known. I hope that is of help. Terry Newman Sydney, Australia

Hi Dinah Just a little bit of information about the Yates family. The family descend from Rabbi Benjamin Yates, son of Eliyakim Goetz of Strelitz The family became Yates in Liverpool. Leopold Yates' ancestor was Liverpool's first Rabbi (or High Priest). Information about the family is in the Liverpool Record Office, including family trees, etc, as well as in various web sites on the internet. Leopold Yates and his wife Deborah Moses (daughter of Charles Moses and Elizabeth Alexander) had around 15 children, some of them born in Australia. Leopold's father was Saul Yates, a solicitor, who married Sarah Isaacs, of London. Saul Died in 1867 in Goulburn, in country NSW, and his tombstone is in the Jewish cemetery there. His wife, Sarah, died in Auckland in 1972. I will send you more details off line. Regards Terry Newman Sydney, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dinah Harvey" <dandrh@bigpond.net.au> To: <BRITISH-JEWRY@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Leopold Yates

I'm excited too. Have just found the Hebrew names of my ALEXANDER great grandparents. Also found the Hebrew name of my ggg grandfather Benjamin JOSEPH - it was Binyamin Yosef. Now I am wondering if it really was. Can one of you experts tell me if it was common to have a Hebrew version of your whole "English" name. Keira Lockyer in Victoria, Australia.

The Australian Jewish Historical Society Victoria is pleased to announce that they have placed on-line the AJHS material on Jewish burials at all cemeteries within Australasia and Oceania, including Australian War Graves and some graves of Australian interest overseas. This massive resource is known as The BD-BD. It has resulted from the remarkable work of Beverley Davis OAM, who over some 28 years visited cemeteries with the support of AJHS and its members. Over 48,000 headstones were transcribed from Hebrew and English and these results have been digitised and are now available to users on-line www.bd-bd.info As this is still a work-in-progress, the user is advised that although it is wide-ranging, this resource is not complete. A number of burials are missing and some may be inaccurate, but we are working to correct this by supplementing it from other resources. Placing the Beverley Davis compilation online is a milestone for the Australian Jewish Historical Society Vic. Inc. We hope that with the support of the user community we will be able to further develop the search tools available, plug gaps in the database, and provide access to other records and databases. Dr. Harvey Cohen Webmaster AJHS Vic. Inc. Digital Archivist

Phillip We know about this here, but I don't think it is to become public knowledge until next week. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "phillip KIRBY" <phillip.kirby@ntlworld.com> To: <british-jewry@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] BEVERLEY DAVIS COMPILATION OF AUSTRALIAN JEWISHBURIALS > Dear Listers > My distant cousin Pat Coppel in Australia has just notified me that the > Beverley Davis Compilation of Australian Jewish Burials is now online. > There are some 48000 entries containing names, other data including age at > death and burial plot references. The site is maintained through the > Australian Jewish Historical Society. I have not put the website > information without approval from Sherry. > Numbers of my own lines are recorded and it is a very useful and important > site. > Regards > Dr Phillip Kirby > Norfolk England > Our website is at > www.british-jewry.org.uk >

Any free to view sites can be posted without any worries. It's only those which require a subscription or payment that you need to ask about first (yes, I know it's a daft rule considering who now owns Rootsweb, but I don't actually make the rules)! Please post the URL I am almost insane with excitement (well that's the excuse I am using for this bout of insanity). Sherry On 12/06/2008, phillip KIRBY <phillip.kirby@ntlworld.com> wrote: I have not put the website information without approval from Sherry.

While searching for Leopold Yates I came across the family in the 1841 census and was surprised to see a lady called Saraphis Wipe living with the family. Actually it is a transcription error from Sarah his wife. I thought it a most imaginative name and worth a chuckle. Actually considering the volume of the databases a few mistakes should be expected. Unfortunately no one seems to know of this family. >From Dinah Harvey Sydney

Dear Listers My distant cousin Pat Coppel in Australia has just notified me that the Beverley Davis Compilation of Australian Jewish Burials is now online. There are some 48000 entries containing names, other data including age at death and burial plot references. The site is maintained through the Australian Jewish Historical Society. I have not put the website information without approval from Sherry. Numbers of my own lines are recorded and it is a very useful and important site. Regards Dr Phillip Kirby Norfolk England

Dear All I am searching for TISMAN/TISHMAN and it appears that the majority who were in the East End at some stage are related to my family. I have searched BMD and have come across the following but I'm not sure who they are;- Esther D (b.1912) and Yetta KATZ (b.1913) - St Geo.East - mother was a TISMAN/TISSMAN Hetty NATHAN (b.1913) - Stepney - mother was a TISHMAN Barnett/Davis DECORVICK (b.1912 d.1916) - mother was a TISHMAN Marks MELNICK m Sarah TISHMAN - Mile End, 1914 Marx COVERMAN or Joe Barnett LISCYZNSKI m Anna TISHMAN- Mile End, 1904 - it is not clear which one Anna married If any of these surnames look familiar it would be good to hear from you. Thanks Naomi Ogin a1steve@bigpond.com Brisbane (ex London)