Dear Listers, thank you all so much , from all over the world, f or your help with my great great grandfather's naturalisation. I am applying to Kew for the Morris Gilberg from Russia, having checked that my great great grandfather was still living in 1899. He died a year later. The problem is that sometimes he is on record as a Gilberg or a Gelbberg or a Gelberg . (There have even been times when my eye caught by chance a Gelbart in the copper plated books that used to be heaved up from the Family Records Office. Then some censuses say he is from Austria, others from Poland and one from Russia. I suppose it depended on who won the plebiscite at the time. (Which reminds me of the woman living in Poland whose husband came back to say they were now Poland , to which she answered," thank goodness, I couldn't bear another Russian winter"). Once I find more of his background I might be able to find other siblings to compare with. With many thanks, Louise in London.

From: "Alfred and Louise" <alfredlouise@btinternet.com> Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] naturalisation To: <BRITISH-JEWRY-L@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001901c8cf4a$2d4957d0$0201a8c0@Desktop> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Dear Listers, I apologise if this has been discussed before, but i cant find it. I need to look up the naturalisataion of my great grandfather Morris Louis Gelbberg ( or Gilberg or Gelberg) some time between 1859 and 1900. Hello Alfred & Louise - Have sent you the link/search page direct as it doesn't come out in plain text and from that you can order the files direct, or request to see them at Kew. Below shows what is available for Gilberg and Gelberg. To search go to;- http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp HO 144/400/B22562 Nationality and Naturalisation: Gilberg, Barnett, from Russia. Resident in Manchester. Certificate A9454 issued 30 January 1897. 1897 HO 144/435/B28515 Nationality and Naturalisation: Gilberg, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A10728 issued 9 March 1899. 1899 HO 144/8901 Nationality and Naturalisation: Gilberg, Albert, from Russia. Resident in Bottisham Cambs. Certificate 16069 issued 31 May 1928. 1928 HO 144/11127 Nationality and Naturalisation: Gilberg, Samuel (or Samuel Goldberg), from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 17426 issued 19 August 1929. 1929 HO 405/18334 GILBERG, A; GILBERG, F aka GHELBERU Dates of birth 25.10.1872; 30.05.1888 1942 Jan 01 - 1955 Dec 31 HO 144/1502/370316 Nationality and Naturalisation: Gelberg, Theodor, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 3,767 issued 7 April 1919. 1919 HO 1/105/3818 Naturalisation Papers: Gelberg, Tesse, from Moldavia. Certificate 3818 issued 21 May 1862. 1862 Naomi Brisbane

I have found another porayer book for M. E. Mosely and inside it says Presented to Maurice Mosely on his confirmation by his Aunt and Uncle Silverston 18 September 1869. Does anyone recognise this? Best wishes, Louise

Thank you Susan and everyone for your help with the naturalization of my gg grandfather Gilberg or Gelbberg. I will try to find the details by applying to Kew. They had so many versions of their name. BEst wishes, Louise----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan McPhedran" <smcphedran@sympatico.ca> To> > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1503 - Release Date: 14/06/2008 > 18:02 > >

I have b een up a ladder sorting out some shelves of old Jewish prayers books etc and have found some that do not belong to my family. I wonder if anyone recognises their ancestors, in which case they are welcome to have them.# Pentateuch, Haphtorahs and Prayers for Sabbath Vol v. Deutoronomy 1867 Ex Libris label 585 M.E.Mosely Service for the Fest of Weeks. M. Mosely on ex libris. Festival Prayers. Written in cover Helen Montague 1886 or 1866 Festival Prayers, Tabernacles. Helen Montague Day of Atonement Prayer Book. Inside cover is written Benjamin Abraham Clerkenwell London On another page "This prayer book belonged to and was used by my dear father David Davis of Glasgow from December 1800 to 3rd June 1870 . He died at his residence 40 Kensington Gardens, Square, London W. Helen Montague 12th child of 6th daughter. What a wonderful piiece of genealogy! Another Atonemnt Day book with the inscription "Presented to my fieancee Helen Davis November 1866 M.Montague. There are two similar books with no inscriptions. I hope I can find teh family they belong to. I am tempted to leave my dusty books and go and look up som cencuses, BMDs etc. With best wishes, Louise

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ It looks as if the entry was indexed under Gilberg. A search at the above site produces the following entry. Home Office: Registered Papers, Supplementary HO 144/435/B28515 Nationality and Naturalisation: Gilberg, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A10728 issued 9 March 1899. . Nationality and Naturalisation: Gilberg, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A10728 issued 9 March 1899. Home Date: 1899. Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives Regards, Susan McPhedran Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Alfred and Louise [mailto:alfredlouise@btinternet.com] Sent: 15 June 2008 20:45 To: BRITISH-JEWRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] naturalisation Dear Listers, I apologise if this has been discussed before, but i cant find it. I need to look up the naturalisataion of my great grandfather Morris Louis Gelbberg ( or Gilberg or Gelberg) some time between 1859 and 1900. I did see it once but cant remember how and then I ned to know how to apply to Kew to see all the information. Can anyone suggest anything, thank you, Louise. Researching GILBERG or GELBERG, HART, ABENDANA, BENDHEIM, BENTHEIM,PRINCE.

Dear Listers, I apologise if this has been discussed before, but i cant find it. I need to look up the naturalisataion of my great grandfather Morris Louis Gelbberg ( or Gilberg or Gelberg) some time between 1859 and 1900. I did see it once but cant remember how and then I ned to know how to apply to Kew to see all the information. Can anyone suggest anything, thank you, Louise. Researching GILBERG or GELBERG, HART, ABENDANA, BENDHEIM, BENTHEIM,PRINCE.

Hello Listers Ludij asked a question regarding the origin of our BARNETT name. If you had asked this question 5 months ago Ludij I couldn't have given you an answer however I can proudly say now, after 42 years of wondering, that it originated from BERZYNSKI (Jacob) originally from Kovno, who emigrated to Leeds and changed it in 1872 to BARNETT. Sorry. Barnett was a good Anglo name chosen by many new arrivals in England. Not too many consonants! Regards Naomi Barnett Melbourne, Australia <<Did your Barnett name originate from Gabriel Barnett in the UK ?>>

No, Louise, This is CIVIL registration. Sorry! Sherry (in sunny Salford, LAN) On 15/06/2008, Alfred and Louise <alfredlouise@btinternet.com> wrote: > I am a bit confused about the Tower Hamlets BMD. Does it mean we will be > able to get records pre-1837.

I am a bit confused about the Tower Hamlets BMD. Does it mean we will be able to get records pre-1837. I am urgently looking for the marraige of my great great grandfather Aaron HART to Esther? about 1812 and the death of an Esther HART his wife between 1832 and 1837. I just miss out on the 1837 indexing. Can anyone suggest where I can find this information. Although a member of the Hambro synagogue where Aaron registered his many children (mostly all of them in 1814) his marraige is not thee nor can I find a record of his wife's death. thankyou, Louise in London researaching HART, ABENDANA, BENDHEIM, BENTHEIM, ISRAEL(Hamburg)COHEN (South Africa) GELBBERG, GILBERG ----- Original Message -----

To further clarify: Spouse matching and indexing of Jewish marriages already exists on many local BMD sites. The ones in the UKBMD "chain" are in the process of adding mother's maiden names to all births (from 1837 onwards). See www.ukbmd.org.uk Sherry (Salford, LAN) > > The DoVE project, which will enable spouse-matching for all marriages > registered at the GRO after 1837, may anyway be up and running before > TH have finished. > > http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/aboutus/lookingahead/Digitisation_of_Vital_Events.asp

To clarify, the registration districts covered by the Tower Hamlets Register Office at various periods (together with the constituent subdistricts) are set out here. http://www.thbmd.co.uk/history.php You won't find any Jewish marriages indexed on this site as yet and it will probably be a while before they appear. I'm told they are indexing all the Anglican churches first, then the nonconformist venues (including Jewish). It is an enormous repository of records and a massive undertaking. The DoVE project, which will enable spouse-matching for all marriages registered at the GRO after 1837, may anyway be up and running before TH have finished. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/aboutus/lookingahead/Digitisation_of_Vital_Events.asp Elly 2008/6/15 Jewish Admin <Jewish@slanda.fsnet.co.uk>: > Thanks for this link, Debbie. > > I haven't found my great-grandparents but it is a really useful site. > > I'll add it to our links page. > > Sherry (wide awake and busy in Salford, LAN) > > On 15/06/2008, Debbie Bozkurt <debbieinscotland@googlemail.com> wrote: > I found the following free index website. >> >> http://www.thbmd.co.uk/search.php >> >> Its the Tower Hamlets birth death and marriage site where they have >> indexed from their own copies and books.

Thanks for this link, Debbie. I haven't found my great-grandparents but it is a really useful site. I'll add it to our links page. Sherry (wide awake and busy in Salford, LAN) On 15/06/2008, Debbie Bozkurt <debbieinscotland@googlemail.com> wrote: I found the following free index website. > > http://www.thbmd.co.uk/search.php > > Its the Tower Hamlets birth death and marriage site where they have > indexed from their own copies and books.

Hi Naomi, Just new to this. Did your Barnett name originate from Gabriel Barnett in the UK ? He was my husband's 2 times great grandfather and I'm trying to find out more. Have found his marriage to Phoebe Jacobs and his death in London, and various census info but am trying to find his birth and parents. Any suggestions ?? Are there any other Barnetts out there ??? Thanks, Ludij Peden Cairns, Australia. -----Original Message----- From: british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:british-jewry-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Merv & Naomi Barnett Sent: Saturday, 14 June 2008 4:44 PM To: British Jewry Subject: [BRITISH-JEWRY] Birth certificate Fanny Eva SAMUEL/S Hello Listers Perhaps someone can help me solve a long-standing question. I am trying to verify a time of arrival in England for an ancestor Heinrich (aka Henry) SAMUEL/S. Heinrich was born around 1817 in Germany. He married (date of marriage not known) a Chanah (aka Hanna/Hannah)SCHELINSKI , born 1834. They emigrated to England but we don't know if it was before or after marriage. Their eldest child, Fanny Eva SAMUEL/S was born in 1852. I am trying to obtain a birth certificate for Fanny Eva. They went on to have 4 more children Louis (1854), Joseph (1861), Leah (1863) and Rachel (1867). We have all the information about the marriages etc of Fanny Eva and all her siblings but determining where and when Fanny Eva was born would be marvellous. Fanny Eva married Abraham Rose in the Hambro Synagogue in 1872 and we have the ketubah. Any suggestions? I wondered if the book recently published by Harold Pollins might have this birth registered. Many thanks Naomi Barnett Melbourne, Australia Our website is at www.british-jewry.org.uk We update regularly. Let us know if you have ideas to offer. British-Jewry-admin@rootsweb.com is the address to use for help. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRITISH-JEWRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In my quest for understanding how the registration of marriages works and thanks Sherry that explanation was spot on, its printed out and put at the front of my file, I found the following free index website. http://www.thbmd.co.uk/search.php Its the Tower Hamlets birth death and marriage site where they have indexed from their own copies and books. Its not complete and no never found granddad BUT one thing it does do is match the spouses which is the thing I find most annoying about other indices. It covers the areas WHITECHAPEL, PARTS OF ALDGATE, MILE END, BETHNAL GREEN, ST GEORGE IN SOUTH, POPLAR and some other areas. It tells you what it covers and I think you can contact, which I am going to over my granddad, well if you don't try you never know! I hope some of you may find this helpful who have relatives from around this area. Kind Regards and thanks again for the helpful advise Debbie Bozkurt dry Outer Hebrides

Marriages: a) Those at registry office: Certificates were signed and given to the couple and duplicates were entered straight into the book of the office b) Those in other venues: Original certificates were signed and given to the couple, a duplicate was made and left with the venue. At the end of each quarter the venues (b) made a complete copy of all their certificates from their book for that quarter and submitted them to the local registrar's office. The registrar's office made a copy of all the marriages which took place at the registry office (a) plus a further copy of the copies received from other venues (b). These were then submitted to what is now the ONS. Hence the copies we then get from ONS are by now, several times copied and with each successive copy the risk of errors increases. When books were complete (i.e. full of entries) a variety of things happened: sometimes they were returned to a central body such as a diocese; sometimes they were sent to an archive such as a county record office; sometimes they were lost/destroyed. The only books that should be in a venue are the current ones (i.e. the ones the venue is still using). There are several problems with the system, in addition to the copy of copy of copy issue. For disused Synagogues the books were often stored (badly) and then either lost or destroyed. During WW2 much of London was bombed and many registrars lost their books in those bombings so for London it is practically impossible, in some districts, to get a certificate as they just don't exist. Even if copies exist in the local registrars' office there are further complications: sometimes they don't have indexes so they can't easily find a marriage in an unknown venue (they may have 100 or more venues in their district). Any GRO index data does not match that of any local registrar's index so using a GRO index reference serves no purpose. The GRO index is flawed and as many as 25% of events are either not indexed or wrongly indexed. So, if you don't know where a marriage took place, and when you are very unlikely to find a certificate...I am still searching (it's been 9 years) for my great grandparents' marriage in London some time between 1872 and 1876. To further complicate things for Jews there were also clandestine marriages (stille chuppah) carried out by Rabbis who were not authorised persons (i.e. they were bona fide Rabbis but had not got the authority to marry people legally speaking in this country). They carried out religious marriages, which went unregistered. This was an option taken by some immigrants who could not get authorisations to marry from the Beth Din (usually because they could not prove their right to do so, because they didn't have the right documentation with them). Does this make sense? Sherry (Salford, LAN) Am I right in thinking the indexs you can search for Marriages were transcribed from the original books kept in the town hall perhaps or did the registrar send a transcription into a central collection place.

>From the time Registration started in 1837 the Suprintendent registrar for each registration district would send in copies of all the Births Marriages and deaths that were registered in the previous quarter. As I remember it from when I got married in the Register Office there were two books for us to sign The one certificate was given to me as the wife and the other was kept by the registrar. It is the information on this second book that is sent on the quarterly returns. If we had married in a church then there would have been a third book which is kept by the church. With the Jewish faith it was the Rabbi that was licenced to perform marriages not the place so many marriages were done in private homes but were registered at one or other of the Synagogues depending on which Rabbi performed the ceremony and filled in the books. To find a record of a marriage it is easier to search the GRO indexes than to go to the local Register Office because each separate church or chapel or Rabbi had their own separate book. However, The GRO index is known to be incomplete. The Books "A Comedy of Errors, The marriage Records of England and Wales 1837-1899. and A Comedy of Errors, Act 2" by Michael Whitfield Foster, show that about 10% of marriages registered in England and Wales between the start of registration and 1899 do NOT appear on the GRO index or are mistranscribed. If they married after 1837 they would have had to register the event, whether it reached the Index is quite another matter. The only way to find out, if they are not on the GRO index is to make a list of all the places they might have married and then contact the local Register Office, cross your fingers for a friendly registrar and see if you can get them to agree a price for searching all the places on your list. Ann Macey in Rainy Newport South Wales ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Bozkurt" <debbieinscotland@googlemail.com> > > Am I right in thinking the indexs you can search for Marriages were > transcribed from the original books kept in the town hall perhaps or > did the registrar send a transcription into a central collection > place.

Hi Debbie, just a suggestion, and probably a track you have already travelled, but between 1840 and 1845 looking just at the surname Philips born county of Carmarthen, there were only 4 male births registered. One was for a Philip PHILIPS reg June quarter 1844 at Llandilofawr Vol 26 page 571. Looking under PHILLIPS there were numerous entries but only 1 Philip PHILLIPS birth registered March quarter 1843 at Llanelly Vol 26 page 333. Could your Philip be one of these two?? Regards Lesley Melbourne, Australia

Please could some one advice me? Am I right in thinking the indexs you can search for Marriages were transcribed from the original books kept in the town hall perhaps or did the registrar send a transcription into a central collection place. I am searching for my 2 Great Grandparents marriage which hasn't been transcribed into the index and I am wondering if there would be the original registers somewhere. I am not sure if they married in a Synagogue or not but either way would they not have had to register there marriage ( I very much doubt they married in church as the offspring married in a synagogue). Their first child was born in Mile End, London and my 2 x grandmother states spitalfields as her birth place. Does anyone know where I would find these records or have I got it totally wrong! I don't mind being told I've got it wrong I am finding it quite difficult to get the facts straight. Thanks very much Debbie Bozkurt (Outer Hebrides)

Hi Naomi, I am thinking that you are aware of the 1881 census record that gives Fanny's place of birth as Germany?. Hannah her mother is listed as being born Germany and Henry as Dobginski Poland. As it has the other children (Lewis, Joseph, Leah and Rachel) all born London, I would think this highly suggestive of the marriage taking place outside England (most probably Germany) and that the emigration occurring sometime between 1855 - 1861. If you are aware of this information, sorry for restating it !! Regards Lesley Melbourne