Hi Listers, This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detail/story.html Josephine
From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> - Bristol Post Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Hi Listers, > > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > l/story.html> I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and politically correct comments about something that happened two or three centuries ago don't understand history at all. Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us - and it was ultimately abolished. I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE
On 06/02/2014 11:46, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> > - Bristol Post > Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > >> Hi Listers, >> >> This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: >> >> Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade >> >> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai >> l/story.html> > I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, > long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. I blame all our troubles today on the Normans and would like the French to pay me compensation. Reg Harris > > Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot > judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it > simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed > at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. > > No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the > slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, > there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. > > History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be > wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social > reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is > how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and > politically correct comments about something that happened two or three > centuries ago don't understand history at all. > > Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered > acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical > thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's > involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us > - and it was ultimately abolished. > > I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to > the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my > paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a > Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue > them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? > > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7066 - Release Date: 02/05/14 > >
My heart always sinks when someone bangs on about 'political correctness', which is usually the prelude to some reactionary clap trap. While Roy Stockdill's piece doesn't quite come into that category, I disagree with much he says on what people should or should not feel regarding past familial connections to slavery or the slave trade. To me it's perfectly understandable to feel guilt and shame over the behaviour of our ancestors, especially over something so manifestly inhuman as slavery. It's all very well saying you can only judge people by the values of the time, as though everyone in the past happily accepted slavery, but there was always opposition on moral and legal grounds and a growing movement for reform. What began as a minority position gradually transformed public opinion, leading to a widespread abhorrence of compulsory servitude. If I had any ancestors who were part of the anti-slavery movement I would take great pride in the fact, just as I am saddened to know that there were Oakleys (who may or may not be related to me) who benefitted from the slave trade. Of course part of the point of studying history is to find ways of entering the mind-set of people from different eras with very different attitudes, but that does not have to mean blithely ignoring the deep-rooted and long-term consequences for the descendants of slavery. Compensation is a hugely difficult matter , with no easy answers, but please let's not just dismiss the idea with absurd comparisons with the (no doubt tragic ) death of a grandfather from anthrax in a wool mill. Anyone with any heart or sensibility would acknowledge that the legacy of the slave trade lives on in Bristol. It's a great city, but its past will always be tainted with its involvement in the slave trade. It's uncomfortable, I know, but there really is no escape from that. Giles Oakley -----Original Message----- From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:46 AM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slavetrade - Bristol Post From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> - Bristol Post Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Hi Listers, > > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > l/story.html> I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and politically correct comments about something that happened two or three centuries ago don't understand history at all. Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us - and it was ultimately abolished. I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Whilst I would not use the phrase clap trap your reaction to Roy's comments is not well reasoned. Whilst by present day standards the slave trade was immoral most of us if we could trace our ancestors back far enough would encounter serfdom a form of bondage or modified slavery but if our ancestors were Lords of the manor and profited from that should we feel guilt for their actions. History has modified our views of what is acceptable and I am sure in the future some of our present day actions will be considered immoral. -----Original Message----- From: gilesoakley@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 12:39 PM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol'sslavetrade - Bristol Post My heart always sinks when someone bangs on about 'political correctness', which is usually the prelude to some reactionary clap trap. While Roy Stockdill's piece doesn't quite come into that category, I disagree with much he says on what people should or should not feel regarding past familial connections to slavery or the slave trade. To me it's perfectly understandable to feel guilt and shame over the behaviour of our ancestors, especially over something so manifestly inhuman as slavery. It's all very well saying you can only judge people by the values of the time, as though everyone in the past happily accepted slavery, but there was always opposition on moral and legal grounds and a growing movement for reform. What began as a minority position gradually transformed public opinion, leading to a widespread abhorrence of compulsory servitude. If I had any ancestors who were part of the anti-slavery movement I would take great pride in the fact, just as I am saddened to know that there were Oakleys (who may or may not be related to me) who benefitted from the slave trade. Of course part of the point of studying history is to find ways of entering the mind-set of people from different eras with very different attitudes, but that does not have to mean blithely ignoring the deep-rooted and long-term consequences for the descendants of slavery. Compensation is a hugely difficult matter , with no easy answers, but please let's not just dismiss the idea with absurd comparisons with the (no doubt tragic ) death of a grandfather from anthrax in a wool mill. Anyone with any heart or sensibility would acknowledge that the legacy of the slave trade lives on in Bristol. It's a great city, but its past will always be tainted with its involvement in the slave trade. It's uncomfortable, I know, but there really is no escape from that. Giles Oakley -----Original Message----- From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:46 AM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slavetrade - Bristol Post From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> - Bristol Post Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Hi Listers, > > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > l/story.html> I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and politically correct comments about something that happened two or three centuries ago don't understand history at all. Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us - and it was ultimately abolished. I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
From: "Tony Harrison" <a.harrison@tesco.net> > Whilst I would not use the phrase clap trap your reaction to Roy's comments > is not well reasoned. Whilst by present day standards the slave trade was > immoral most of us if we could trace our ancestors back far enough would > encounter serfdom a form of bondage or modified slavery but if our > ancestors were Lords of the manor and profited from that should we feel > guilt for their actions. History has modified our views of what is > acceptable and I am sure in the future some of our present day actions will > be considered immoral.> Thank you, Tony. Good point.I am sure most of us, if we dig deep enough, could find an ancestor who did something disreputable, but why should we feel guilt over it? It's a side issue, but I wonder if HM Elizabeth II ever feels a vestige of guilt over all the (sometimes innocent) people who were executed in earlier centuries by her ancestors? Just imagine if some of their descendants decided to sue for compensation, she'd never be out of the law courts! The problem with any rational discussion of slavery is that it is always dominated by leftish, white liberals expressing their guilt over something they weren't responsible for but fail to see it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE