From: "Jenny Stiles" <jstiles2@optusnet.com.au> > This notebook is of particular interest to me because Cranfield BECHER is > the half-brother of my direct ancestor John BECHER. Their father, another > John BECHER was the Mayor of Bristol in 1721 and was a merchant, trading in > many different ventures including slavery. I do regret that he was involved, > even though it was at the time considered quite acceptable and most of the > rich merchants at the time in Bristol were involved to some extent. Regret > however doesn't mean that I feel guilty or responsible, as they were his > choices, not mine. > I would love to be able to read this journal to glean any references to > other members of the family. I suspect the household accounts would be > especially interesting to me! > Cranfield BECHER died in 1799 and his wife Bridget lived to 101 [or as it > was put at the time, into her 102 year!]. > > Thank you Josephine for posting this article to the list. > > >From Jenny Stiles> A very sensible attitude, if I may say so Jenny. I hope you are able to get to read the whole journal because I am sure it will add to your researches. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

I haven't been following this thread closely today, but now I see that tempers are getting heated and perhaps people should walk away from this. We say things on the internet less tactfully than we would face to face; and because it's not face to face there is no Last Word to be had, and therefore no "winners." Also, it's not very nice to be around. -----Original Message----- From: bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: 06 February 2014 21:09 To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol'sslavetrade - Bristol Post From: <gilesoakley@tiscali.co.uk> > Well, Roy, I stand put in my place. I'm sorry you think I 'don't > really understand history', although I'd put it another way. I'm > afraid I simply don't share your cosy UKIP-style bluff Yorkshireman > saloon bar right wing views on these matters, where complex matters > are reduced to risible comparisons. However, I notice you use the term > word 'sins of the past' in relation to slavery, which to my untutored eye suggests there were 'sinners' > too. Once you concede that principal, it does suggest somewhere along > the line feelings of shame or guilt might be at the very least > comprehensible, if not obligatory. > > It's only natural, I would think, that some people take some vicarious > pride in their ancestors' achievements, however little personal credit > they can take from them. I've no doubt the descendants of Winston > Churchill are proud of the Old Man and likewise I'd be very chuffed if > I was related to Wilberforce, or to Martin Luther King, or any number > of fighters for justice. The reverse side of that impulse is for > people to feel bad when they discover they have perpetrators of evil > in their family tree. What's wrong with that? Why would it be > 'political correctness' ('gone mad'?) to feel empathetic guilt.> ...Rest snipped... It's utter twaddle to suggest that anyone alive today should feel guilt, vicarious or otherwise, over something one of their ancestors did, including an involvement in the slave trade. As it happens, I am a very distant kinsman of Sir Ernest Shackleton, the Antarctic explorer. We both descend from a marriage at Keighley, Yorkshire, in 1581, but I don't make a big thing about it. On another line, my research suggests that I may be very remotely connected via a marriage to a very wicked woman called Mary Bateman who was hanged at York in 1809 for murder. She was a poisoner and probably killed more people than she was hanged for. I have turned it into a lecture that I give to societies! BTW, could I respectfully suggest that you learn the difference between "principal" and "principle"? This would seem to be one of the more common errors in the English language today! Principal is defined as something or somone who is the head of something or in charge of it. Principle means a belief or tenet of faith. I think it was the latter you meant in your message. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7066 - Release Date: 02/05/14 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7066 - Release Date: 02/05/14

From: <gilesoakley@tiscali.co.uk> > Well, Roy, I stand put in my place. I'm sorry you think I 'don't really > understand history', although I'd put it another way. I'm afraid I simply > don't share your cosy UKIP-style bluff Yorkshireman saloon bar right wing > views on these matters, where complex matters are reduced to risible > comparisons. However, I notice you use the term word 'sins of the past' in > relation to slavery, which to my untutored eye suggests there were 'sinners' > too. Once you concede that principal, it does suggest somewhere along the > line feelings of shame or guilt might be at the very least comprehensible, > if not obligatory. > > It's only natural, I would think, that some people take some vicarious pride > in their ancestors' achievements, however little personal credit they can > take from them. I've no doubt the descendants of Winston Churchill are proud > of the Old Man and likewise I'd be very chuffed if I was related to > Wilberforce, or to Martin Luther King, or any number of fighters for > justice. The reverse side of that impulse is for people to feel bad when > they discover they have perpetrators of evil in their family tree. What's > wrong with that? Why would it be 'political correctness' ('gone mad'?) to > feel empathetic guilt.> ...Rest snipped... It's utter twaddle to suggest that anyone alive today should feel guilt, vicarious or otherwise, over something one of their ancestors did, including an involvement in the slave trade. As it happens, I am a very distant kinsman of Sir Ernest Shackleton, the Antarctic explorer. We both descend from a marriage at Keighley, Yorkshire, in 1581, but I don't make a big thing about it. On another line, my research suggests that I may be very remotely connected via a marriage to a very wicked woman called Mary Bateman who was hanged at York in 1809 for murder. She was a poisoner and probably killed more people than she was hanged for. I have turned it into a lecture that I give to societies! BTW, could I respectfully suggest that you learn the difference between "principal" and "principle"? This would seem to be one of the more common errors in the English language today! Principal is defined as something or somone who is the head of something or in charge of it. Principle means a belief or tenet of faith. I think it was the latter you meant in your message. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Well, Roy, I stand put in my place. I'm sorry you think I 'don't really understand history', although I'd put it another way. I'm afraid I simply don't share your cosy UKIP-style bluff Yorkshireman saloon bar right wing views on these matters, where complex matters are reduced to risible comparisons. However, I notice you use the term word 'sins of the past' in relation to slavery, which to my untutored eye suggests there were 'sinners' too. Once you concede that principal, it does suggest somewhere along the line feelings of shame or guilt might be at the very least comprehensible, if not obligatory. It's only natural, I would think, that some people take some vicarious pride in their ancestors' achievements, however little personal credit they can take from them. I've no doubt the descendants of Winston Churchill are proud of the Old Man and likewise I'd be very chuffed if I was related to Wilberforce, or to Martin Luther King, or any number of fighters for justice. The reverse side of that impulse is for people to feel bad when they discover they have perpetrators of evil in their family tree. What's wrong with that? Why would it be 'political correctness' ('gone mad'?) to feel empathetic guilt. We've all seen the subjects of Who Do You Think You Are? shedding tears over things that have happened, for good or ill, in their ancestral past, when some tragic circumstance is turned up by researchers. Is there something wrong with that, or is that somehow 'not understanding history'? I'd see these emotions as the natural human response of those blessed with feelings of empathy. As I've said, matters of compensation are extremely difficult, and it's true that it's hard to know how far back it would be reasonable to go. Certainly reparations for British atrocities in Kenya during the Mau-Mau conflict of the 1950s seem fully justified, given that there are living survivors and damaged victims. With slavery and the slave trade, which Britain did indeed have an honourable record in ending, it is far more difficult, but entirely worthwhile to enter debate over. I have filmed interviews with people whose grandparents were slaves in the USA, so in fact the links in ancestral chains are not so very long. For the British, the Afro-Caribbean population are mainly descendants of slaves (plus indentured workers from Asia) who were treated appallingly long after slavery was ended, as anyone with knowledge of the West Indies would know. I have no easy answers for any of these issues, but I do know they are worth dealing with in a more thoughtful way than some correspondents here have chosen to do. I think we should all be grateful to Josephine for putting up the link to that horrifying historical document from Bristol's slaving past, which has allowed a debate of this kind. Oh yes, Roy, you're right. London and Liverpool both have much to answer for in terms of their involvement in the slave trade, but that doesn't reduce Bristol's guilt. Giles Oakley -----Original Message----- From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 1:02 PM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol'sslavetrade - Bristol Post From: <gilesoakley@tiscali.co.uk> > My heart always sinks when someone bangs on about 'political correctness', > which is usually the prelude to some reactionary clap trap. While Roy > Stockdill's piece doesn't quite come into that category, I disagree with > much he says on what people should or should not feel regarding past > familial connections to slavery or the slave trade. To me it's perfectly > understandable to feel guilt and shame over the behaviour of our > ancestors, > especially over something so manifestly inhuman as slavery. It's all very > well saying you can only judge people by the values of the time, as though > everyone in the past happily accepted slavery, but there was always > opposition on moral and legal grounds and a growing movement for reform. > What began as a minority position gradually transformed public opinion, > leading to a widespread abhorrence of compulsory servitude. If I had any > ancestors who were part of the anti-slavery movement I would take great > pride in the fact, just as I am saddened to know that there were Oakleys > (who may or may not be related to me) who benefitted from the slave trade. > Of course part of the point of studying history is to find ways of > entering > the mind-set of people from different eras with very different attitudes, > but that does not have to mean blithely ignoring the deep-rooted and > long-term consequences for the descendants of slavery. Compensation is a > hugely difficult matter , with no easy answers, but please let's not just > dismiss the idea with absurd comparisons with the (no doubt tragic ) death > of a grandfather from anthrax in a wool mill. Anyone with any heart or > sensibility would acknowledge that the legacy of the slave trade lives on > in > Bristol. It's a great city, but its past will always be tainted with its > involvement in the slave trade. It's uncomfortable, I know, but there > really > is no escape from that.> Bristol is no more tainted by its past than London, Liverpool and probably half a dozen other ports that were involved in the slave trade. It happened over 200 years ago, for peter's sake, and it was we, the British, who abolished it - several decades before America, I might point out. In the early 19th century the British Navy, which still ruled the waves, sent warships out to intercept and board the slave ships. Another fact seemingly little known by those who think we ought to pay compensation is that it wasn't a one-way trade. Many tribal chiefs in Africa took part in it and were happy to sell their their own people or those captured from other tribes to the European slavers in return for trinkets. Why anyone thinks we should still be beatingn our breasts and wearing hair shirts over something that happened so long ago beats me! I wouldn't have the slightest twinge of conscience if I discovered through my researches that an ancestor of mine was involved in the slave trade. As it happened, I haven't found one but I wouldn't go around worrying myself and feeling guilty over it. History is history and, as I tried to explain, we cannot judge our ancestors' actions by today's values when they may as well have been living on a different planet in their time. William the Conqueror's infamous "Harrying of the North" in 1069, in which some of my Yorkshire ancestors may well have been slaughtered, was one of the greatest acts of genocide in history, but I'm not demanding compensation or an apology from the French government over it! The discovery of this diary is interesting from an historical point of view, but no more. The way the story was slanted does suggest to me a certain amount of political correctness at work. Surely academics and family historians should be the very first people to recognise that blaming our ancestors for the sins of the past is a futile exercise? I will forgive you your use of the term "clap trap" because it suggests to me that you don't really understand history either. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 14:04:10 -0000, liverpud <liverpud-49@rogers.com> wrote: > Thanks Josephine. Surely a nasty business to be in Hi Edna and Listers, Thanks for your response, Edna. Yes, it was a nasty business. The article has reminded me of Philippa Gregory's novel of the slave trade entitled A Respectable Trade, which is set in Bristol. Information about this novel is here: http://www.philippagregory.com/books/a-respectable-trade I remember watching the BBC drama, based on this novel, in 1998. List members may be interested in a Bristol walk, details of which are on the following web page. Philippa Gregory walk http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/articles/2006/08/31/philippa_gregory_walk_feature.shtml Josephine

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 14:49:13 -0000, <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote: > Please don't think I was criticising you in any way for posting the > information, Josephine! I read the whole article and found it > interesting - and yes, it would certainly be of interest to anyone > connected to that family. Hi Roy, I realize that there was no criticism as, in the past, we have spoken several times on the phone and corresponded. It's often difficult to decide whether to post links to local history articles as they may not be of interest to everyone, but this one has proved to be food for thought. Josephine

From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> > Hi Roy and Listers, > > My attention was caught by the Bristol Post article and by the BBC article > because, over the years, I've made reference to Cranfield BECHER, the > owner of the notebook, and other members of the BECHER family in my > rootsweb responses to queries about this family. > > So as there is at least one B & S member with BECHER interests, I thought > that the two articles would be of family interest as well as historical > interest. > > Just yesterday I noticed the 1741/2 marriage of Cranfield BECHER, merchant > of St. Augustine, in a transcription of of the Temple Marriages 1558-1753. > > This prompted me to have another look at information about Cranfield > BECHER on the following web page: > > John Becher of Co Cork, then Bristol > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~becher/john_becher_of_Cork%2 > 0then%20Bristol.htm > > Then, this morning two articles came up with reference to the 18th-century > merchant whom I had been looking at only yesterday. > > Incidentally, the page on the BECHER family does mention that the family > were involved in trading and slaving. > > Josephine < Please don't think I was criticising you in any way for posting the information, Josephine! I read the whole article and found it interesting - and yes, it would certainly be of interest to anyone connected to that family. I simply thought the tenor of the story and some of the comments were overtly politically correct and seemed to be suggesting that Bristolians today had something to be ashamed of. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 08:29:09 -0000, Josephine Jeremiah <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> wrote: > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detail/story.html On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 13:02:00 -0000, <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote: > The discovery of this diary is interesting from an historical point of > view, but no more. Hi Roy and Listers, My attention was caught by the Bristol Post article and by the BBC article because, over the years, I've made reference to Cranfield BECHER, the owner of the notebook, and other members of the BECHER family in my rootsweb responses to queries about this family. So as there is at least one B & S member with BECHER interests, I thought that the two articles would be of family interest as well as historical interest. Just yesterday I noticed the 1741/2 marriage of Cranfield BECHER, merchant of St. Augustine, in a transcription of of the Temple Marriages 1558-1753. This prompted me to have another look at information about Cranfield BECHER on the following web page: John Becher of Co Cork, then Bristol http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~becher/john_becher_of_Cork%20then%20Bristol.htm Then, this morning two articles came up with reference to the 18th-century merchant whom I had been looking at only yesterday. Incidentally, the page on the BECHER family does mention that the family were involved in trading and slaving. Josephine

I'm a leftish white liberal! Let's not get too stereotypifying. I think we should regret the behaviour of our ancestors who lived in morally different times, but we cannot be held responsbible for them. The queen, since she's been mentioned, responded in similar vein not so long ago about a massacre conducted by the British in India, stopping short of an apology but speaking with dignity and regret about the event. www.colinsalter.co.uk www.talltalesfromthetrees.blogspot.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: 06 February 2014 13:09 To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol'sslavetrade - Bristol Post From: "Tony Harrison" <a.harrison@tesco.net> > Whilst I would not use the phrase clap trap your reaction to Roy's > comments is not well reasoned. Whilst by present day standards the > slave trade was immoral most of us if we could trace our ancestors > back far enough would encounter serfdom a form of bondage or modified > slavery but if our ancestors were Lords of the manor and profited > from that should we feel guilt for their actions. History has modified > our views of what is acceptable and I am sure in the future some of > our present day actions will be considered immoral.> Thank you, Tony. Good point.I am sure most of us, if we dig deep enough, could find an ancestor who did something disreputable, but why should we feel guilt over it? It's a side issue, but I wonder if HM Elizabeth II ever feels a vestige of guilt over all the (sometimes innocent) people who were executed in earlier centuries by her ancestors? Just imagine if some of their descendants decided to sue for compensation, she'd never be out of the law courts! The problem with any rational discussion of slavery is that it is always dominated by leftish, white liberals expressing their guilt over something they weren't responsible for but fail to see it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7066 - Release Date: 02/05/14 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7066 - Release Date: 02/05/14

From: "Tony Harrison" <a.harrison@tesco.net> > Whilst I would not use the phrase clap trap your reaction to Roy's comments > is not well reasoned. Whilst by present day standards the slave trade was > immoral most of us if we could trace our ancestors back far enough would > encounter serfdom a form of bondage or modified slavery but if our > ancestors were Lords of the manor and profited from that should we feel > guilt for their actions. History has modified our views of what is > acceptable and I am sure in the future some of our present day actions will > be considered immoral.> Thank you, Tony. Good point.I am sure most of us, if we dig deep enough, could find an ancestor who did something disreputable, but why should we feel guilt over it? It's a side issue, but I wonder if HM Elizabeth II ever feels a vestige of guilt over all the (sometimes innocent) people who were executed in earlier centuries by her ancestors? Just imagine if some of their descendants decided to sue for compensation, she'd never be out of the law courts! The problem with any rational discussion of slavery is that it is always dominated by leftish, white liberals expressing their guilt over something they weren't responsible for but fail to see it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

From: <gilesoakley@tiscali.co.uk> > My heart always sinks when someone bangs on about 'political correctness', > which is usually the prelude to some reactionary clap trap. While Roy > Stockdill's piece doesn't quite come into that category, I disagree with > much he says on what people should or should not feel regarding past > familial connections to slavery or the slave trade. To me it's perfectly > understandable to feel guilt and shame over the behaviour of our ancestors, > especially over something so manifestly inhuman as slavery. It's all very > well saying you can only judge people by the values of the time, as though > everyone in the past happily accepted slavery, but there was always > opposition on moral and legal grounds and a growing movement for reform. > What began as a minority position gradually transformed public opinion, > leading to a widespread abhorrence of compulsory servitude. If I had any > ancestors who were part of the anti-slavery movement I would take great > pride in the fact, just as I am saddened to know that there were Oakleys > (who may or may not be related to me) who benefitted from the slave trade. > Of course part of the point of studying history is to find ways of entering > the mind-set of people from different eras with very different attitudes, > but that does not have to mean blithely ignoring the deep-rooted and > long-term consequences for the descendants of slavery. Compensation is a > hugely difficult matter , with no easy answers, but please let's not just > dismiss the idea with absurd comparisons with the (no doubt tragic ) death > of a grandfather from anthrax in a wool mill. Anyone with any heart or > sensibility would acknowledge that the legacy of the slave trade lives on in > Bristol. It's a great city, but its past will always be tainted with its > involvement in the slave trade. It's uncomfortable, I know, but there really > is no escape from that.> Bristol is no more tainted by its past than London, Liverpool and probably half a dozen other ports that were involved in the slave trade. It happened over 200 years ago, for peter's sake, and it was we, the British, who abolished it - several decades before America, I might point out. In the early 19th century the British Navy, which still ruled the waves, sent warships out to intercept and board the slave ships. Another fact seemingly little known by those who think we ought to pay compensation is that it wasn't a one-way trade. Many tribal chiefs in Africa took part in it and were happy to sell their their own people or those captured from other tribes to the European slavers in return for trinkets. Why anyone thinks we should still be beatingn our breasts and wearing hair shirts over something that happened so long ago beats me! I wouldn't have the slightest twinge of conscience if I discovered through my researches that an ancestor of mine was involved in the slave trade. As it happened, I haven't found one but I wouldn't go around worrying myself and feeling guilty over it. History is history and, as I tried to explain, we cannot judge our ancestors' actions by today's values when they may as well have been living on a different planet in their time. William the Conqueror's infamous "Harrying of the North" in 1069, in which some of my Yorkshire ancestors may well have been slaughtered, was one of the greatest acts of genocide in history, but I'm not demanding compensation or an apology from the French government over it! The discovery of this diary is interesting from an historical point of view, but no more. The way the story was slanted does suggest to me a certain amount of political correctness at work. Surely academics and family historians should be the very first people to recognise that blaming our ancestors for the sins of the past is a futile exercise? I will forgive you your use of the term "clap trap" because it suggests to me that you don't really understand history either. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Whilst I would not use the phrase clap trap your reaction to Roy's comments is not well reasoned. Whilst by present day standards the slave trade was immoral most of us if we could trace our ancestors back far enough would encounter serfdom a form of bondage or modified slavery but if our ancestors were Lords of the manor and profited from that should we feel guilt for their actions. History has modified our views of what is acceptable and I am sure in the future some of our present day actions will be considered immoral. -----Original Message----- From: gilesoakley@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 12:39 PM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol'sslavetrade - Bristol Post My heart always sinks when someone bangs on about 'political correctness', which is usually the prelude to some reactionary clap trap. While Roy Stockdill's piece doesn't quite come into that category, I disagree with much he says on what people should or should not feel regarding past familial connections to slavery or the slave trade. To me it's perfectly understandable to feel guilt and shame over the behaviour of our ancestors, especially over something so manifestly inhuman as slavery. It's all very well saying you can only judge people by the values of the time, as though everyone in the past happily accepted slavery, but there was always opposition on moral and legal grounds and a growing movement for reform. What began as a minority position gradually transformed public opinion, leading to a widespread abhorrence of compulsory servitude. If I had any ancestors who were part of the anti-slavery movement I would take great pride in the fact, just as I am saddened to know that there were Oakleys (who may or may not be related to me) who benefitted from the slave trade. Of course part of the point of studying history is to find ways of entering the mind-set of people from different eras with very different attitudes, but that does not have to mean blithely ignoring the deep-rooted and long-term consequences for the descendants of slavery. Compensation is a hugely difficult matter , with no easy answers, but please let's not just dismiss the idea with absurd comparisons with the (no doubt tragic ) death of a grandfather from anthrax in a wool mill. Anyone with any heart or sensibility would acknowledge that the legacy of the slave trade lives on in Bristol. It's a great city, but its past will always be tainted with its involvement in the slave trade. It's uncomfortable, I know, but there really is no escape from that. Giles Oakley -----Original Message----- From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:46 AM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slavetrade - Bristol Post From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> - Bristol Post Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Hi Listers, > > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > l/story.html> I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and politically correct comments about something that happened two or three centuries ago don't understand history at all. Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us - and it was ultimately abolished. I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

From: Reg Harris <rj.harris@ntlworld.com> > On 06/02/2014 11:46, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > > From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> > > - Bristol Post > > Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > > > >> Hi Listers, > >> > >> This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > >> > >> Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > >> > >> > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > >> l/story.html> > > I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened > long, > > long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely > ashamed. > > I blame all our troubles today on the Normans and would like the French > to pay me compensation. > > Reg Harris> Quite so, Reg! As a Yorkshireman, I think it likely that some of my ancestors were slaughtered in William's infamous "Harrying of the North" in 1069 when thousands of people and their animals were massacred and it was said that there was barely a village left unburnt between York and Durham. I too think the French government should pay me compensation - no, of course I don't! However, my point was a serious one. I get tired of these stories about slavery and the implication that we who are alive today should somehow be responsible for the actions of our ancestors and apologise for them. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

My heart always sinks when someone bangs on about 'political correctness', which is usually the prelude to some reactionary clap trap. While Roy Stockdill's piece doesn't quite come into that category, I disagree with much he says on what people should or should not feel regarding past familial connections to slavery or the slave trade. To me it's perfectly understandable to feel guilt and shame over the behaviour of our ancestors, especially over something so manifestly inhuman as slavery. It's all very well saying you can only judge people by the values of the time, as though everyone in the past happily accepted slavery, but there was always opposition on moral and legal grounds and a growing movement for reform. What began as a minority position gradually transformed public opinion, leading to a widespread abhorrence of compulsory servitude. If I had any ancestors who were part of the anti-slavery movement I would take great pride in the fact, just as I am saddened to know that there were Oakleys (who may or may not be related to me) who benefitted from the slave trade. Of course part of the point of studying history is to find ways of entering the mind-set of people from different eras with very different attitudes, but that does not have to mean blithely ignoring the deep-rooted and long-term consequences for the descendants of slavery. Compensation is a hugely difficult matter , with no easy answers, but please let's not just dismiss the idea with absurd comparisons with the (no doubt tragic ) death of a grandfather from anthrax in a wool mill. Anyone with any heart or sensibility would acknowledge that the legacy of the slave trade lives on in Bristol. It's a great city, but its past will always be tainted with its involvement in the slave trade. It's uncomfortable, I know, but there really is no escape from that. Giles Oakley -----Original Message----- From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:46 AM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slavetrade - Bristol Post From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> - Bristol Post Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Hi Listers, > > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > l/story.html> I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and politically correct comments about something that happened two or three centuries ago don't understand history at all. Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us - and it was ultimately abolished. I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 06/02/2014 11:46, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> > - Bristol Post > Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > >> Hi Listers, >> >> This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: >> >> Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade >> >> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai >> l/story.html> > I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, > long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. I blame all our troubles today on the Normans and would like the French to pay me compensation. Reg Harris > > Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot > judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it > simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed > at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. > > No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the > slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, > there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. > > History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be > wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social > reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is > how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and > politically correct comments about something that happened two or three > centuries ago don't understand history at all. > > Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered > acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical > thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's > involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us > - and it was ultimately abolished. > > I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to > the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my > paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a > Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue > them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? > > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7066 - Release Date: 02/05/14 > >

From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> - Bristol Post Send reply to: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Hi Listers, > > This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: > > Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade > > http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detai > l/story.html> I dislike these politically correct stories about things that happened long, long ago and about which none of us alive today should feel remotely ashamed. Family historians, of all people, should surely understand that you cannot judge historical events in the past by a mindset of 21st century values, it simply doesn't work! You can only ever judge them by the attitudes that existed at the time and within the social mores of the society in which they prevailed. No-one should feel guilty if they find an ancestor who was involved in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us. And, in any case, there was an era of history when it was was considered quite normal. History is constantly evolving and things that are perceived eventually to be wrong are corrected, usually by the work and determination of a few social reformers - like, in the case of the slave trade, William Wilberforce. That is how history works and it seems to me that those who make fatuous and politically correct comments about something that happened two or three centuries ago don't understand history at all. Condemning our ancestors for things that they in their own time considered acceptable is an absurd waste of time and illustrates a lack of logical thought. Nobody in Bristol should feel any sense of guilt over the city's involvement in the slave trade because it was nothing whatsoever to do with us - and it was ultimately abolished. I particularly object to the idea some have that we should pay compensation to the descendants of slaves as being particularly ludicrous. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died at only 45 after contracting anthrax in a Bradford wool mill. Should I try and find descendants of the mill owner and sue them over causing my grandfather's death? How daft would that be? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ Reach For The Stars blog: roystockdillgenealogy.com "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi Listers, In my previous message, I mentioned a Bristol Post article featuring a notebook concerning Bristol's slave trade. Information on the ledger belonging to merchant, Cranfield BECHER, is in this BBC article: Bristol 18th Century slave ledger unveiled http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-26046267 Josephine

Thanks Josephine. Surely a nasty business to be in and so many other European countries participated. Britons were slaves once, on a smaller scale. Nothing wrong in remembering these people. Edna - sunny and cold Ottawa -----Original Message----- From: Josephine Jeremiah Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:29 AM To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: [B&S] Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade - Bristol Post Hi Listers, This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detail/story.html Josephine

Hi Listers, This Bristol Post article has just caught my attention: Notebook reveals chilling insight into Bristol's slave trade http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/CHILLING-INSIGHT-SLAVE-TRADE/story-20569759-detail/story.html Josephine

Hi Listers, I've just spotted this in the Bristol Post: Morse code plans delayed as high winds force Cabot Tower closure http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Morse-code-plans-delayed-high-winds-force-Cabot/story-20566067-detail/story.html Josephine