Hi Whilst trying to establish where my grandfather's first wife Alice Cousins,came from ,I noticed that the witnesses on the marriage certificate in 1881 were a Richard and Mary Swain . The address Alice was married from in Carmarthen Wales was the same as theirs but no mention of her in the 1881 census although Richard and Mary were there and Mary gave her place of birth as Bristol whilst Richard came form Ireland . I wonder if there's anyone researching Cousins from Bristol who've come across a Mary and/or Alice amongst their records . I'm hoping that there is a connection between Mary and Alice .I know it's a long shot but I'm trying everything . All I have on Alice is that her father was a Thomas and he was a gardener . Thanks , Buddug Hollett

I have been tracing Paul Bevan who joined the Glamorgan Militia in 1811. His daughter Mary Ann Bevan baptised Llangyfelach, Glam, 6th August 1813 said he was Militia living in Canterbury. His daughter Sarah baptised Llangyfelach Glam 1815 said he was a soldier. National Archives record he volunteered for the Sappers and Miners 1st April. 1814. No trace on their records which commenced 1815. In St.Nicholas Bristol 22nd April 1812 a Paul Bevan married Mary Harris. Now a Mary Harris was baptised in Llangyfelach 5th June 1792 daughter of Evan Harris making her a couple of weeks under 20 at her marriage. Did she travel from Llangyfelach to Bristol, quite easily done using the regular packet ships that traded Swansea to Bristol. The Glamorgan Militia: In March 1812, whilst still at Bristol, the Regiment was converted to Light Infantry. On 29 June the Regiment was ordered to the East Coast and marched via Bath, Wiltshire & Berkshire to Woodbridge Barracks, Yarmouth. They then went to Ramsgate, Kent in September.of the same year and Canterbury in 1813. So the militia were at Bristol from March 1812 to June 1812 and he could have married whilst he was there. Unfortunately Bristol Archives have temporarily ceased their research service. Anyone able to look at this entry in the St.Nicholas parish register ? Regards Bryan Richards www.swanseamariners.org.uk over 74,000 entries in searcheable index of mariners of all ranks who sailed on Swansea registered ships. 1862~1880 and 1890~1894 complete, 1835-1844 and other years underway . Large number of entries relating to Bristol and West Country mariners.

Hi Listers, My Australian correspondent, who is researching her JOSEPH, WOODBRIDGE, KANE and SMITH families in Bristol, has asked me to thank list members who have answered my list questions, this week, on her families. I know that she is is very pleased with all the information found. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah http://www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

It still is 42 days in England (I do not know about Scotland) and in France it was, and still is 3 days. My grandfather was born in Paris, to British parents. The birth was registered in both the British Consular registers and in the Parisian mairie of th arrondissement. My grandfather was away for a few days. His birthdate is correct for UK, but a day later for the French certificate! He always had to rememberwhich bureacracy he was dealing with! Incidentally, the French one is a long, handwritten document, detailing time of birth, people who learned about it ( the concierge in the building) as well as occupations etc which by then in UK was detailed in tabulated columns. Jean > To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:18:12 +0100 > From: jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com > Subject: [B&S] Penalty for neglect in registering a birth, 1911 (was FW: Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line) > > > On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:06:07 +0100, Lynne Charles > <lynnecharles7@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > I was lead to believe that all, children had to be baptized by LAW pre > > 1837. If they were not by a certain passage of time the parish church > > could fine them. > > I haven't heard of that, but I read today that in 1911 the penalty was £2 > if a birth wasn't registered within 42 days. > > Josephine > > -- > Josephine Jeremiah > www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:50:23 +0100, Polly Rubery <polly@rowberry.org> wrote: > Which goes a long way to explaining those instances where the child is > baptised before it is born - according to the date on the birth > registration. The latter was often "adjusted" to bring it back within > the 42 days! I know of someone whose birth didn't get registered within the 42 days so her birth date was changed to a month later. She discovered this when she needed her birth certificate on applying for her first job. Afterwards, she used the later birth date, instead of her real birth date, but lost a month's pension because of this. So in the end, she paid a penalty instead of her parents paying one for neglecting to register the birth. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

Hi Jean, > the baptismal certificate was almost the only proof of identity. That's a good point, and one which the Baptists discovered to their cost. Inheritance depended on showing that you were the person named in the will. Since the Baptists did not believe in infant baptisms, they found that they had a problem when it came to proving the identity of a minor. This, I understand, is how Dr William's Library came about, which involved the registering of the birth of an infant in a way that had a legal standing, as an alternative to baptism. Best wishes, Mike

Which goes a long way to explaining those instances where the child is baptised before it is born - according to the date on the birth registration. The latter was often "adjusted" to bring it back within the 42 days! Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> To: <bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:18 PM Subject: [B&S] Penalty for neglect in registering a birth, 1911 (was FW: Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line) On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:06:07 +0100, Lynne Charles <lynnecharles7@hotmail.com> wrote: > I was lead to believe that all, children had to be baptized by LAW pre > 1837. If they were not by a certain passage of time the parish church > could fine them. I haven't heard of that, but I read today that in 1911 the penalty was £2 if a birth wasn't registered within 42 days. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good job the price of the certificate hasn't risen in line with the cost of the marriage fees...:-)! Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josephine Jeremiah" <jojeremiah@dsl.pipex.com> To: <bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:31 PM Subject: [B&S] Cost of marriage at a Register Office, 1911 I've just refreshed my memory today on the cost of a marriage at Bristol Register Office in 1911. Altogether the cost was 7s., which was made up of 5s. to the Registrar and 2s. to the Superintendent Registrar. There was an additional 2s. 6d. for the certificate of marriage if it was required. The cost of the marriage must have been a heavy one if the bride and groom were poor. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've just refreshed my memory today on the cost of a marriage at Bristol Register Office in 1911. Altogether the cost was 7s., which was made up of 5s. to the Registrar and 2s. to the Superintendent Registrar. There was an additional 2s. 6d. for the certificate of marriage if it was required. The cost of the marriage must have been a heavy one if the bride and groom were poor. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:06:07 +0100, Lynne Charles <lynnecharles7@hotmail.com> wrote: > I was lead to believe that all, children had to be baptized by LAW pre > 1837. If they were not by a certain passage of time the parish church > could fine them. I haven't heard of that, but I read today that in 1911 the penalty was £2 if a birth wasn't registered within 42 days. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

> > > There is another point of course - the baptismal certificate was almost the only proof of identity. If people needed to prove their existence, poor law rules for example, proof of residence in a certain parish to claim relief - maybe a late baptism in order to get married. And various other possibilities. My mother, b. 1919 was not baptised because her father, having seen all sorts of horrors in the trenches - said she could make her own mind up about religion ( and incidentally, vaccination - she was jabbed as an emergency aged 3 and remembered being chased by a doctor with a large needle!) > > In 1940, about to marry, she could not provide proof of a baptism - it had not happened - so she was baptised in Dec, married in Jan 1941, and confirmed in March - Anglican. The rest of the family were Presbyterian some were Congregationalists. > > Jean > > > > From: mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk > > To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:04:42 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [B&S] Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line > > > > > > Hi Marjorie, > > > > I hadn't realised that it was actually against church rules to charge a fee > > for baptisms. Interesting. As you say, it was probably a case of the vicar > > bringing pressure to bear to get all the unbaptised children done. It would > > be interesting to look at the register and see whether the dates correspond > > to a new incumbent who is more strict about such things than his > > predecessor. Or perhaps even a new Bishop sending out instructions to his > > subordinates to "get their acts together" and get their flock baptised. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Art & > > Marjorie Keates > > Sent: 26 October 2010 12:41 > > To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [B&S] Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line > > > > Hi Mike > > > > I looked up Henry and his family to refresh my memory. > > > > 12 children in the family. > > First 5 were baptised, didn't find a baptism for the 6th. Henry, the 7th, > > baptised when he was 5, and at least 3 years before he entered the > > workhouse. > > Didn't find any baptisms for next 4, the 12th born in May 1845, baptised in > > July and buried in Jan...the same day as her father who died when 'cliff > > fell on him at the old works'. Ruth was 8 months and ' buried in the same > > coffin with her father.' > > Interesting little notes you find when reading the actual register. > > > > The mother was buried the day the 12th child, Ruth, was baptised. > > > > I expect that Henry and the now youngest child Nicholas entered the work > > house after their father's death. > > > > Using the TNA site you told us about I found a reference in a letter dated > > 18 Feb 1852 to Nicholas Latcham age 10 fit for employment. > > > > An unexpected mention of Nicholas > > > > Thank you again for mention of the TNA site. > > > > By the way there has been a lenghty discussion on another group re baptisms > > and fees. The vicar was not supposed to charge for a baptism. Perhaps some > > did but it was against church rules. > > Perhaps some families just didn't really care whether or not their children > > were baptised and every now and then would be prodded into taking them to > > church and having any unbaptised children 'done'. > > > > Best wishes > > Marjorie > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >

I was lead to believe that all, children had to be baptized by LAW pre 1837. If they were not by a certain passage of time the parish church could fine them. ---------------------------------------- > From: jeangrahame@live.fr > To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:52:26 +0200 > Subject: [B&S] FW: Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is another point of course - the baptismal certificate was almost the only proof of identity. If people needed to prove their existence, poor law rules for example, proof of residence in a certain parish to claim relief - maybe a late baptism in order to get married. And various other possibilities. My mother, b. 1919 was not baptised because her father, having seen all sorts of horrors in the trenches - said she could make her own mind up about religion ( and incidentally, vaccination - she was jabbed as an emergency aged 3 and remembered being chased by a doctor with a large needle!) > > > > In 1940, about to marry, she could not provide proof of a baptism - it had not happened - so she was baptised in Dec, married in Jan 1941, and confirmed in March - Anglican. The rest of the family were Presbyterian some were Congregationalists. > > > > Jean > > > > > > > From: mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk > > > To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:04:42 +0100 > > > Subject: Re: [B&S] Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line > > > > > > > > > Hi Marjorie, > > > > > > I hadn't realised that it was actually against church rules to charge a fee > > > for baptisms. Interesting. As you say, it was probably a case of the vicar > > > bringing pressure to bear to get all the unbaptised children done. It would > > > be interesting to look at the register and see whether the dates correspond > > > to a new incumbent who is more strict about such things than his > > > predecessor. Or perhaps even a new Bishop sending out instructions to his > > > subordinates to "get their acts together" and get their flock baptised. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > [mailto:bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Art & > > > Marjorie Keates > > > Sent: 26 October 2010 12:41 > > > To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [B&S] Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line > > > > > > Hi Mike > > > > > > I looked up Henry and his family to refresh my memory. > > > > > > 12 children in the family. > > > First 5 were baptised, didn't find a baptism for the 6th. Henry, the 7th, > > > baptised when he was 5, and at least 3 years before he entered the > > > workhouse. > > > Didn't find any baptisms for next 4, the 12th born in May 1845, baptised in > > > July and buried in Jan...the same day as her father who died when 'cliff > > > fell on him at the old works'. Ruth was 8 months and ' buried in the same > > > coffin with her father.' > > > Interesting little notes you find when reading the actual register. > > > > > > The mother was buried the day the 12th child, Ruth, was baptised. > > > > > > I expect that Henry and the now youngest child Nicholas entered the work > > > house after their father's death. > > > > > > Using the TNA site you told us about I found a reference in a letter dated > > > 18 Feb 1852 to Nicholas Latcham age 10 fit for employment. > > > > > > An unexpected mention of Nicholas > > > > > > Thank you again for mention of the TNA site. > > > > > > By the way there has been a lenghty discussion on another group re baptisms > > > and fees. The vicar was not supposed to charge for a baptism. Perhaps some > > > did but it was against church rules. > > > Perhaps some families just didn't really care whether or not their children > > > were baptised and every now and then would be prodded into taking them to > > > church and having any unbaptised children 'done'. > > > > > > Best wishes > > > Marjorie > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Marjorie, I hadn't realised that it was actually against church rules to charge a fee for baptisms. Interesting. As you say, it was probably a case of the vicar bringing pressure to bear to get all the unbaptised children done. It would be interesting to look at the register and see whether the dates correspond to a new incumbent who is more strict about such things than his predecessor. Or perhaps even a new Bishop sending out instructions to his subordinates to "get their acts together" and get their flock baptised. Best wishes, Mike -----Original Message----- From: bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:bristol_and_somerset-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Art & Marjorie Keates Sent: 26 October 2010 12:41 To: bristol_and_somerset@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B&S] Poor Law TNA Documents On-Line Hi Mike I looked up Henry and his family to refresh my memory. 12 children in the family. First 5 were baptised, didn't find a baptism for the 6th. Henry, the 7th, baptised when he was 5, and at least 3 years before he entered the workhouse. Didn't find any baptisms for next 4, the 12th born in May 1845, baptised in July and buried in Jan...the same day as her father who died when 'cliff fell on him at the old works'. Ruth was 8 months and ' buried in the same coffin with her father.' Interesting little notes you find when reading the actual register. The mother was buried the day the 12th child, Ruth, was baptised. I expect that Henry and the now youngest child Nicholas entered the work house after their father's death. Using the TNA site you told us about I found a reference in a letter dated 18 Feb 1852 to Nicholas Latcham age 10 fit for employment. An unexpected mention of Nicholas Thank you again for mention of the TNA site. By the way there has been a lenghty discussion on another group re baptisms and fees. The vicar was not supposed to charge for a baptism. Perhaps some did but it was against church rules. Perhaps some families just didn't really care whether or not their children were baptised and every now and then would be prodded into taking them to church and having any unbaptised children 'done'. Best wishes Marjorie

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:31:44 +0100, Tony Harrison <a.harrison@tesco.net> wrote: > Henry's father is shown as James Beard a gunsmith and Ann's father is > shown as Edward Nichols a Butcher. > An Edward Nichols is shown in Mathews Directory of 1799 as a butcher in > Redcliffe Street. Hi Tony, I've spotted reference to a will of 1829 for an Edward NICHOLS on this page on the Bristol Wills site: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/stream/asset/?asset_id=28905044 However, I don't know if it's a will for the butcher, Edward NICHOLS. There is a brief reference to the butcher, Edward NICHOLLS (sic) and Redcliffe Street on the following page: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=002-19835&cid=-1#-1 This concerns the lease of a tenement on 23rd. March 1793. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

I'm still on the track of the Bristol family of my Australian correspondent and have been looking at The marriage of William Thomas JOSEPH and Mary Ann DAVIS, which was registered in the June quarter of 1882 at Bristol. I've been told that they married at Bristol Register Office so I was wondering where this was in 1882. Wright's Bristol Directory of 1882 has given the answer, All Saints' Court. That was something that I didn't know. Some of my relatives married at Bristol Register Office in 1912. I see from Wright's Bristol Directory of 1911 that then the office was at Peter Street, behind St. Peter's Church. I've just had a look at the following site about Bristol Register Office and frequently asked questions, which some list members may find of interest: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/ccm/content/Community-Living/Marriages/register-office-frequently-asked-questions.en;jsessionid=4A552DDB69C9B7081C0E1DCDFF0EBBBF.tcwwwaplaws1 Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

Further to my recent post regarding the marriage of Henry Beard to Ann Shearman Nichols b abt 1813 Bristol I have now received the marriage certificate which shows they were both residing Redcliffe Street. Henry was shown as 50 on 1841 census so could be born between 1786 and 1791 on the 1851 census he is shown as 57 (b 1794) Somerset but he could have lost a few years when he married Ann Henry's father is shown as James Beard a gunsmith and Ann's father is shown as Edward Nichols a Butcher. An Edward Nichols is shown in Mathews Directory of 1799 as a butcher in Redcliffe Street. Can anyone help me find any information on any of these people. Tony

On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:01:43 +0100, <Bernpeg@aol.com> wrote: > Although I also can't find Benjamin Joseph in the Gordon Beavington 1851 > census for Bristol, I note from familysearch.org that Benjamin Joseph > married Caroline Woodbridge at the church of St Thomas, Bristol on > 16.12.1848. > His father was quoted as John Joseph and her father was quoted as Thomas > Woodbridge. > I also note that the Woodbridges lived a couple of doors away from > Benjamin Joseph in the 1881 census at Bedminster Down. I'm not sure > whether you > already knew this about the families. Hi Bernice, I didn't know this until I looked more closely last night so thanks for pointing me in the direction of neighbours. Now I can see that this WOODBRIDGE family was related to Caroline, the wife of Benjamin JOSEPH. Henry WOODBRIDGE, son of Thomas and Sarah, was baptized on 10th. September 1826 at Bedminster. Abode was Bedminster Down and father's occupation was labourer. Caroline WOODBRIDGE was baptized on 24th. October 1830 at the same church. Abode was West Street and father's occupation was labourer. This would have been West Street in Bedminster and not the West Street near Old Market, which I was thinking of originally before I looked at the baptism. (My correspondent had already mentioned West Street as an address for Caroline.) Looking at the B & A FHS Baptism Index 1754-1813 and 1813-1837 (www.bafhs.org.uk), I see that Thomas and Sarah WOODBRIDGE had a number of other children baptized at St. John's Church, Bedminster -- Sarah, 1811, William, 1813, John, 1815,Thomas, 1817, Thomas, 1821, Uriah, 1823, Harriett, 1824 and Edward, 1828. Father's occupation was coal miner in 1813 and 1815 and hallier in 1821. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

Hi Marion Fantastic, Many many thanks. How would one proceed without your expertee,s Many many thanks again, Bless you. Tony On 25 October 2010 13:37, Marion <lowe.marion@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Tony > > BathBMD has the birth of Christiana SARGENT in 1838 in Lansdown > sub-district. Her mother's maiden name is given as MOLD. > > In the 1841 > On 25 October 2010 13:29, caple anthony <tony.caple@blueyonder.co.uk> > wrote: > > Hi All > > > > Have Christiana SARGEANT born Bath , circa 1839 > > > > Have her marriage BUT unable to find her parent,s or siblings. > > > > She married Robert GAMLIN in 1858. > > > > Any help most welcome. > > > > Regards > > > > Tony > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yesterday, I mentioned that I am looking into the family of an Australian lady whose ancestor was Benjamin JOSEPH, a coal miner in Bedminster in the 19th century. I noted that Benjamin Foord JOSEPH, son of John and Hannah, was baptized on 23rd. December 1827 at Bedminster. Abode was Bedminster Down and father's occupation was hawker. A possible match for the marriage of Benjamin's parents could be bachelor, John JOSEPH, and spinster, Hannah BRITTON, who were married, by banns, on 26th. March 1821 at Stapleton. A John JOSEPH, aged 55, was buried on 1st. December 1833 at St. John's Church, Bedminster. This could have been Benjamin's father, I haven't found a baptism for John JOSEPH. Perhaps he came from Wales, where the surname JOSEPH was more common than in Bristol. I've found a number of JOSEPH baptisms in Glamorgan and Monmouthshire on FreeReg, none of which fits exactly. So this may be as far as it goes for the JOSEPH family at the moment. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

In 1851 she is indexed on Ancestry as Christina SARGENT (the original image has very small writing and may actually read Christiana) and living in Walcot with mother Mary Ann, a widow, and sisters Mary Ann and Eunice (presumably this was Emma from the earlier census) Marion On 25 October 2010 13:39, Marion <lowe.marion@gmail.com> wrote: >  Hi Tony > > BathBMD has the birth of Christiana SARGENT in 1838 in Lansdown > sub-district. Her mother's maiden name is given as MOLD. > >  In the 1841 Census there is the following family > HO 107/970/13, page 23, folio 16 > High Street, Walcot > William SARGENT, 35, MS, not born in Somerset > Mary SARGENT, 35, not born in Somerset > Edwin "    , 11, born in Somerset > Mary   "    , 9, " > Emma  "   , 7,  " > Christiana " , 3,  " > > hope that helps > Marion > > >> On 25 October 2010 13:29, caple anthony <tony.caple@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>> Hi All >>> >>> Have Christiana SARGEANT born Bath , circa 1839 >>> >>> Have her marriage BUT unable to find her parent,s or siblings. >>> >>> She married Robert GAMLIN in 1858. >>> >>> Any help most welcome. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_SOMERSET-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >