Thank you Hilary for the suggestion of looking at the 'Mason Site' I will see if I can find it and check for John Manley Palmer. Havnt used Cyndi's list for a long time, so will check that out tomorrow. I did look for a PALMER MANLEY marriage, but couldnt find any candidates. Manley was a popular surname in Somerset and quite a lot in Bristol. John's father is named as Isaac PALMER decd, I tried looking for a death, and also tried to find him in the various Census returns, I got very excited with a family who's father was an Isaac PALMER and a son of the right age called John, Most of the family born in Calne, Wilts, where they were living, I traced them thru the census years, only to find the son John, was still a single man aged 30 in 1881, when the John I have was married in 1871, so still looking. I dont have the original Marriage Cert, that is with another PALMER/SUMMERS/HELLINGS researcher. I did look for the various name variations, but I agree with you, he has to be staring me in the face. I will keep searching, both Isaac and John have to be there somewhere. Pat