On 7 Feb 2010 at 16:20, Charani wrote: > robert williams wrote: > > > The problem of "Identity Theft"was illustrated to great Effect in > > that Old Film...."The Day of the Jackal"with a young Edward FOX in > > the Title Roll. He simply visited a local Cemetary,and wrote the > > details of a tombstone of a young two year old who had died in 1936. > > He then went to the Registry Office and got the Young Boy's "Birth > > Certificate",and then used it as His own. This then Enabled him to > > Get a "Passport",which he then used Fraudently to Travel to Paris to > > try to Bump off President Charles De GAULLE. > > He didn't go into a register office. He went into Somerset House > which was where all the GRO indices were kept at the time before they > were moved to St Catherine's House then, later, to the FRC. > > He also handed in a completed form and was given the certificate in > return which has *never* been possible for ordinary citizens except > under very exceptional circumstances. > > John Stonehouse used the same ploy when he decided to do a "Reggie > Perrin". There's still a fake "Duke of Buckingham" wandering around > as well, I believe. > I hadn't started out in family history when the records were at Somerset House but, as far as I recall, it was never possible, as you say, at either St Catherine's House or the FRC to apply for a certificate and get one instantly. This is one of the things I reckon some of us find so annoying about Who Do You Think You Are? which sometimes gives the impression that it is! The only way you can speed up the process is to use the express service which today costs £23 against the standard £7 and even that is NOT a same-day service. I want to point out every time I see this debate on a list that the reason the records are publicly accessible, and have been ever since civil registration came in in 1837, is to guard against fraud by officials or customers. There were a number of cases in the 1840s of registrars or their assistants making up fictitious births and deaths because they were being paid on "piece rates", i.e. according to how many they registered. And I have always had the belief that there were considerably more bigamous marriages in Victorian times than has been generally thought because ordinary people just couldn't get a divorce. However, on the whole the system has worked for over 170 years and I see no reason to change it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Roy Stockdill wrote: > When the dear old Family Records Centre was still open (and how I > miss it still) I applied for and was given an RU number which > enabled me to bypass some of the restrictions. > > However, I have found since then that if you order a certificate on > the phone to Southport that is under 50 years old, they don't > bother with the full details that you are asked when applying > online. The only thing is, they charge £1.50 more for it. I was under the impression the 50 year rule had been dropped since the FRC had closed because I ordered 3 death certs online, all from the 1980s without needing to give any more information than I would for death certs from the 1880s. I don't have an RU number either. I miss the FRC too. I think it was a real backward step withdrawing access to the actual volumes. It was also handy if there were any queries on FMP index entries because they'd send someone round to have a look at the actual index. FMP can't do that now the indices are in Basingstoke. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hi Roy Yes I too have/had a RU too, and was in constant communication with the GRO once the FRC closed. They said at first that they would add the details to one's acount, so that one could order the same online, but in the meanwhile I could order by phone, email or fax, all of which cost £1.50 more... I gave up once they came under the wing of the IPA...:-( Like you I miss my trips to the FRC. Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Stockdill" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> To: <bristol_and_district@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [B&D] Certificates Online. On 7 Feb 2010 at 15:48, Polly Rubery wrote: > Hi Graham > > You are wrong about the certificates, what the Heir Hunter firsm have > is the GRO indexes on microfilm/microfiche, but it seems that they do > now use the online versions too...in fact findmy past started out as > one of these firms, digitising and indexing the indexes for their own > benefit, more so than ours - and how it has been to their > benefit...:-) > > As for the fraud documented in the "Day of the Jackal" this led to the > introduction of a 50 year limit on purchasing birth certificates, > other than those that you can supply the full details for (unless you > have a "Regular Users" number - which allows firms such as the Heir > Hunters to purchase them. They obviously think that people over 50 > years old are not likely to go around trying to shoot heads of state, > or commit other forms of fraud (mainly of course benefit fraud). Kind > regards Polly > When the dear old Family Records Centre was still open (and how I miss it still) I applied for and was given an RU number which enabled me to bypass some of the restrictions. However, I have found since then that if you order a certificate on the phone to Southport that is under 50 years old, they don't bother with the full details that you are asked when applying online. The only thing is, they charge £1.50 more for it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 7 Feb 2010 at 15:48, Polly Rubery wrote: > Hi Graham > > You are wrong about the certificates, what the Heir Hunter firsm have > is the GRO indexes on microfilm/microfiche, but it seems that they do > now use the online versions too...in fact findmy past started out as > one of these firms, digitising and indexing the indexes for their own > benefit, more so than ours - and how it has been to their > benefit...:-) > > As for the fraud documented in the "Day of the Jackal" this led to the > introduction of a 50 year limit on purchasing birth certificates, > other than those that you can supply the full details for (unless you > have a "Regular Users" number - which allows firms such as the Heir > Hunters to purchase them. They obviously think that people over 50 > years old are not likely to go around trying to shoot heads of state, > or commit other forms of fraud (mainly of course benefit fraud). Kind > regards Polly > When the dear old Family Records Centre was still open (and how I miss it still) I applied for and was given an RU number which enabled me to bypass some of the restrictions. However, I have found since then that if you order a certificate on the phone to Southport that is under 50 years old, they don't bother with the full details that you are asked when applying online. The only thing is, they charge £1.50 more for it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 7 Feb 2010 at 15:29, robert williams wrote: > The programme The "Heir Hunters"have copies of the B.M.D;Records > themselves on Microfilm & Microfiche. If you watch their Detective > Work on that Programme ,you will notice they have the Machines > themselves to do the Looking. You will also notice them looking in > Drawers Full of Microfiche. The problem of "Identity Theft"was > illustrated to great Effect in that Old Film...."The Day of the > Jackal"with a young Edward FOX in the Title Roll. He simply visited a > local Cemetary,and wrote the details of a tombstone of a young two > year old who had died in 1936. He then went to the Registry Office and > got the Young Boy's "Birth Certificate",and then used it as His own. > This then Enabled him to Get a "Passport",which he then used > Fraudently to Travel to Paris to try to Bump off President Charles De > GAULLE. > > No doubt that Ruse has been used on many an occasion since that film > was first shown in 1975. > > Cheers Graham. > Since some time in the 1980s (I cannot recall the exact year) every birth, marriage and death certificate issued either by the GRO or the local register offices has carried the following statement in bold capital letters: "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY". So the myth of certificates being used to steal identities is just that - a MYTH! In any event, crooks wouldn't bother to go to the trouble of getting real certificates from the GRO or a register office, they would simply forge them. That banks and government depts like the Passport Office, etc, accept birth certificates as evidence of identity is their problem and not the fault of the system of public access to them, which has been in place ever since registration began in 1837 and absolutely MUST remain so, otherwise we may as well all give up family history and take up flower arranging or some other hobby! The heir hunter firms, as Polly says, do NOT have access to the certificates, they have copies of the GRO Indexes, just as FreeBMD, Ancestry and Findmypast do - and indeed as we all do, since they are all online. I get tired of seeing this nonsense about the Day of the Jackal and identity theft regularly dragged up. Family historians should be absolutely the last people to suggest restrictions on public access to BMD certificates. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

robert williams wrote: > The problem of "Identity Theft"was illustrated to great Effect in that Old > Film...."The Day of the Jackal"with a young Edward FOX in the Title Roll. > He simply visited a local Cemetary,and wrote the details of a tombstone of a > young two year old who had died in 1936. > He then went to the Registry Office and got the Young Boy's "Birth > Certificate",and then used it as His own. > This then Enabled him to Get a "Passport",which he then used Fraudently to > Travel to Paris to try to Bump off President Charles De GAULLE. He didn't go into a register office. He went into Somerset House which was where all the GRO indices were kept at the time before they were moved to St Catherine's House then, later, to the FRC. He also handed in a completed form and was given the certificate in return which has *never* been possible for ordinary citizens except under very exceptional circumstances. John Stonehouse used the same ploy when he decided to do a "Reggie Perrin". There's still a fake "Duke of Buckingham" wandering around as well, I believe. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hi Listers I've recently read about this migrant ship and concerns raised about her fate. The City of Adelaide is the oldest surviving clipper ship in the world, one of only a few to still exist, however her owners, the Scottish Maritime Museum, intend to demolish her as they are being evicted from the slipway where the City of Adelaide sits. There are lots of websites giving information about the clipper, eg http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article6953510.ece As many of our ancestors would have travelled aboard her to Australia, I thought it was worth bringing her to the list's attention. Neither Scottish nor UK Government seems prepared to step in. Two rival rescue bids — one from Adelaide, one from Sunderland, where she was built — are trying to save her. Both are desperately short of money and time. So for the sake of around half a million quid — a banker’s bonus in a bad year — this priceless maritime artefact is to be destroyed. Kind regards Joy

Hi Graham You are wrong about the certificates, what the Heir Hunter firsm have is the GRO indexes on microfilm/microfiche, but it seems that they do now use the online versions too...in fact findmy past started out as one of these firms, digitising and indexing the indexes for their own benefit, more so than ours - and how it has been to their benefit...:-) As for the fraud documented in the "Day of the Jackal" this led to the introduction of a 50 year limit on purchasing birth certificates, other than those that you can supply the full details for (unless you have a "Regular Users" number - which allows firms such as the Heir Hunters to purchase them. They obviously think that people over 50 years old are not likely to go around trying to shoot heads of state, or commit other forms of fraud (mainly of course benefit fraud). Kind regards Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert williams" <robert.williams94@googlemail.com> To: <bristol_and_district@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: [B&D] Certificates Online. The programme The "Heir Hunters"have copies of the B.M.D;Records themselves on Microfilm & Microfiche. If you watch their Detective Work on that Programme ,you will notice they have the Machines themselves to do the Looking. You will also notice them looking in Drawers Full of Microfiche. The problem of "Identity Theft"was illustrated to great Effect in that Old Film...."The Day of the Jackal"with a young Edward FOX in the Title Roll. He simply visited a local Cemetary,and wrote the details of a tombstone of a young two year old who had died in 1936. He then went to the Registry Office and got the Young Boy's "Birth Certificate",and then used it as His own. This then Enabled him to Get a "Passport",which he then used Fraudently to Travel to Paris to try to Bump off President Charles De GAULLE. No doubt that Ruse has been used on many an occasion since that film was first shown in 1975. Cheers Graham. -- Graham Williams.of Canton,Cardiff. Chairman,"Canton Historical Society". Glam;FHS;#551. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The programme The "Heir Hunters"have copies of the B.M.D;Records themselves on Microfilm & Microfiche. If you watch their Detective Work on that Programme ,you will notice they have the Machines themselves to do the Looking. You will also notice them looking in Drawers Full of Microfiche. The problem of "Identity Theft"was illustrated to great Effect in that Old Film...."The Day of the Jackal"with a young Edward FOX in the Title Roll. He simply visited a local Cemetary,and wrote the details of a tombstone of a young two year old who had died in 1936. He then went to the Registry Office and got the Young Boy's "Birth Certificate",and then used it as His own. This then Enabled him to Get a "Passport",which he then used Fraudently to Travel to Paris to try to Bump off President Charles De GAULLE. No doubt that Ruse has been used on many an occasion since that film was first shown in 1975. Cheers Graham. -- Graham Williams.of Canton,Cardiff. Chairman,"Canton Historical Society". Glam;FHS;#551.

I have a handwritten school notebook of my father's, which was used in about 1910. He came from a very blue-collar family, and it is clear that he was expected to become an Ag lab. Much of the subject-matter was apparently taught in those terms. For example, students calculated how much manure would be needed, in cubic feet, to cover a certain number of acres of land. They were taught how to properly "trench" the ground for the planting of potatoes. Etc. Now tell me, who would be better to teach these skills, a formally college-educated teacher, or a former Ag Lab with lots of experience and a bit of readin' and writin' skill whose arthritic hands and knees no longer allowed him to work outside? (Incidentally, my dad became a salesman, a Lt. Colonel in WWII, and then a successful business owner - but before all that he was at one time manager of a pig farm - prize-winning pigs, of course!) Happy hunting!   Diana Robinson (nee Gardner) Now in Rochester, NY, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:26:53 +0000 From: Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> Subject: Re: [B&D] Musician -v- Coppersmith (was William Henry HARRIS c1825 BRISTOL) To: "Bristol & District ML" <bristol_and_district@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <20100206172653.40ca572b@abydos.stargate.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:09:53 -0000 "Liz" <e.newbery@btinternet.com> wrote: Hello Liz, > Another which I still can't comprehend - an Ag Lab who became > a teacher!! Don't forget that the term Ag Lab is a catch all. Some of those jobs were quite skilled. Okay, it was still manual work, so still quite a leap. Unless he was teaching at agricultural college. :-)

Thanks to all those on the list who have commented on my Henry HARRIS and his occupations. If I ever solve the mystery, and prove Henry the Bristol Musician became Henry the London Coppersmith, I shall have to let you know. In the meantime, I'm keeping William Henry baptised 1825 Temple, son of Henry & Elizabeth HARRIS, on the backburner - not discounting him altogether as being "my" Wm Henry! All best and many thanks Chris, Sydney

Yes, I realised that but they lived in a small town and I feel sure everyone would have known everyone. The bride's father was a labourer which is really what the groom's father should have been! I've looked around in case the censuses were not right and there was another person with the same surname. All those with the same surname in the town were all either Ag Labs. or Labs. Promotion to School master in 1854 seems crazy as he was an Ag Lab or Lab in all censuses! I did wonder if he taught on Sundays and therefore the vicar wrote that he was a school master. The son, ie the groom was either a sailor or a tailor...difficult to read. However, as he appears to be missing in 1851, I think he was probably a sailor! He was an Ag Lab in 1861 and once the railway arrived at his town he joined the railway as a porter and he continued like that, moving around (as they often did) until his death in 1900. Liz www.btinternet.com/~e.newbery OPC for Street, Somerset ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charani" <familyhunter@family-hunter.co.uk> To: <bristol_and_district@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [B&D] Musician -v- Coppersmith (was William Henry HARRIS c1825 BRISTOL) > Liz wrote: >> Hi Brad...Yes, I am well aware that Ag Lab covers an extremely large area >> of >> skills BUT I've input all the people of that surname, in that town, on >> all >> the censuses and can find none of them described as anything near being >> a >> "School Master" which is what this man says at his son's wedding in 1854. >> I >> feel sure the vicar must have been "mut an jeff" and got it wrong on his >> son's Marriage Certificate. > > What was the bride's father's occupation? > > It's not unknown for a son (or daughter) to give their father a > "promotion" so he appears on a par with their future father in law. > Nor is it unknown for a father to be "promoted" above the future > father in law. > > -- > Charani (UK) > OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM > Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM > http://wsom-opc.org.uk > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

We have a person in our village who trained to make and repair brass musical instruments using similar if not the same skills as a coppersmith except he is working fashioning brass and not copper He is also a music teacher to supplement his income and plays regularly in bands and other musical groups Depending on which occupation is the dominant income provider or to whom he is talking would dictate how he desribes his main occupation Jeff Peacock

Liz wrote: > Hi Brad...Yes, I am well aware that Ag Lab covers an extremely large area of > skills BUT I've input all the people of that surname, in that town, on all > the censuses and can find none of them described as anything near being a > "School Master" which is what this man says at his son's wedding in 1854. I > feel sure the vicar must have been "mut an jeff" and got it wrong on his > son's Marriage Certificate. What was the bride's father's occupation? It's not unknown for a son (or daughter) to give their father a "promotion" so he appears on a par with their future father in law. Nor is it unknown for a father to be "promoted" above the future father in law. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hi Brad...Yes, I am well aware that Ag Lab covers an extremely large area of skills BUT I've input all the people of that surname, in that town, on all the censuses and can find none of them described as anything near being a "School Master" which is what this man says at his son's wedding in 1854. I feel sure the vicar must have been "mut an jeff" and got it wrong on his son's Marriage Certificate. Liz www.btinternet.com/~e.newbery OPC for Street, Somerset ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Rogers" <brad@fineby.me.uk> To: "Bristol & District ML" <bristol_and_district@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [B&D] Musician -v- Coppersmith (was William Henry HARRIS c1825 BRISTOL) > On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:09:53 -0000 > "Liz" <e.newbery@btinternet.com> wrote: > > Hello Liz, > >> Another which I still can't comprehend - an Ag Lab who became >> a teacher!! > > Don't forget that the term Ag Lab is a catch all. Some of those jobs > were quite skilled. Okay, it was still manual work, so still quite a > leap. > > Unless he was teaching at agricultural college. :-) > > -- > Regards _ > / ) "The blindingly obvious is > / _)rad never immediately apparent" > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks for your comments Charani. I realised while I was mulling all this over today, that on another line I'm researching (actually the line that married my HARRIS fellow) I have an ancestor who was at various points recorded as a Shoemaker 1841, a Stocking Trimmer 1844 and a Musician 1851, so I guess Henry HARRIS being a Musician and a Coppersmith is possible, though perhaps unlikely. I realise William may think he was born in Bristol for the reasons you've given. However, I think I've found his father Henry HARRIS in London (where William also moved to) in the 1851 and 1861. I can't locate the family at all in the 1841, even though in 51 and 61 Henry was at the same address in Lewisham Street, St Margaret Westminster. I've even trawled through the whole 1841 ED which contains Lewisham Street, but no sign of him. Perhaps some more trawling is required, if the family has been mistranscribed. Wildcard searches on Ancestry don't seem to have turned anything up. But on the 51 and 61, Henry gives his birth place as Bristol also - another reason to think William was born there. Thanks for explaining the Diocese to me. I have now ordered a birth cert for one of the children who appears with Henry in the 1851 census. Hopefully there may be more clues for me when I receive it. Many thanks again for your help Charani and I'll try the freereg site too, see if I have any luck. Best wishes Chris > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 01:47:57 +0000 > From: Charani <familyhunter@family-hunter.co.uk> > > It would depend if he was a full time musician or did it as a side > line or whoever completed the register may have made a mistake: but I > agree, on the face of it, it is a bit of a stretch. > >> What puzzles me is that my ancestor William Henry born c1825 maintains on >> the 1851 and 1861 censuses that he was born in Bristol. > > He could have been born somewhere just outside Bristol and that was > the nearest big place. Or he may have moved there as a small child > and not known it wasn't where he was born. Or he may have been born in > Bristol but christened elsewhere for some reason. > > A diocese is usually very much larger than the actual place whose name > it bears. Bristol Diocese would cover all the parishes in Bristol. > >> William Henry HARRIS x'd 1825 at Temple Bristol is apparently the only >> William Henry with a father Henry on the CD, per Tony's reply. So if the >> CD >> covers the whole of Bristol, where do I go from here........ > > The CD does cover the whole of Bristol. > > Have you tried www.freereg.org.uk in case he was baptised elsewhere? > It's unfortunate that HARRIS is quite a common name which is going to > make it that much harder. > ***************************************************

My father in law was a lorry driver for the docks ,joined the RAF them when demobbed went to college & became a teacher My youngest son was a computer engineer here in London but is now buying & selling horses in Wilts ! Ann Liz wrote: > Might he just have played the organ in the church and still have been a > coppersmith? I have a builder who was the church organist, a tinsmith who > wrote hymns. Another which I still can't comprehend - an Ag Lab who became > a teacher!! My great grandfather was an iron moulder who made grates and > became an inspector in the insurance business. His wife encouraged him to > better himself. Another of my ancestors was an organ builder in 1881 - > obviously working with his father and brother who were organ builders, by > 1891 he was a carpenter and joiner - not so different because you had a lot > of carpentry in creating a church organ but by 1901 he has followed another > of his brothers and was a "Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer". > > My daughter was in sales and marketing in 5 star hotels and airlines - she's > now a camel farmer so what could be more different! From smart uniform and > 3" heels to mucking out the animals, etc. She also has llamas, pigs, > rabbits, ducks, geese, hens, Pygmy goats and umpteen other critters. > Liz > www.btinternet.com/~e.newbery > OPC for Street, Somerset > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charani" <familyhunter@family-hunter.co.uk> > To: <bristol_and_district@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [B&D] William Henry HARRIS c1825 BRISTOL > > > >> Brad Rogers wrote: >> >> >>> Stranger things happen; My father always wanted to be a musician. He >>> managed it. >>> >>> "How?" I hear you ask. >>> >>> He joined the army. Whilst there he joined the band, and was taught to >>> play and read music. >>> >> Makes sense and it could have happened back then as well, that's why I >> added "on the face of it" :)) >> >> >>> Going the other way, from musician to (in this case) Coppersmith is, to >>> my mind, not a big jump. Especially if he was struggling to make money >>> as a musician. He'd have had to do something to earn money. >>> >> The only real problem I can see is that to be a coppersmith, he would >> have had to serve an apprenticeship. I don't think he'd have been >> allowed to be a musician during his apprenticeship. If he was already >> a musician and struggling financially, he'd have been quite a bit >> older than most when he started his apprenticeship. >> >> The only way I could see that working out was if he'd apprenticed and >> possibly qualified as a coppersmith, then became a musician but went >> back to being a coppersmith when/if being a musician didn't work out. >> That, though, begs the question: how did he keep his skills up >> during the musical period. >> >> -- >> Charani (UK) >> OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM >> Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM >> http://wsom-opc.org.uk >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Liz wrote: > Might he just have played the organ in the church and still have been a > coppersmith? It's possible. > I have a builder who was the church organist, a tinsmith who > wrote hymns. Another which I still can't comprehend - an Ag Lab who became > a teacher!! The problem with Ag Labs is it's such a catch-all term and many ag labs weren't totally illiterate. Clearly your ag lab had a degree of education, enjoyed the learning process and took it further. There's a man in Walton who's shown as an ag lab at the baptism of most of his children but for one in the middle, he's given as a turf merchant. He goes back to being an ag lab for the rest. He does show up as a turf dealer elsewhere. It made me wonder how many more of the alleged ag labs were actually something much more than their job title suggested. Then there are the farmers sons who are given as ag labs in censuses and when they marry. Clearly they were learning the trade, so to speak, and not ag labs like many of those in the village. > My great grandfather was an iron moulder who made grates and > became an inspector in the insurance business. His wife encouraged him to > better himself. Another of my ancestors was an organ builder in 1881 - > obviously working with his father and brother who were organ builders, by > 1891 he was a carpenter and joiner - not so different because you had a lot > of carpentry in creating a church organ but by 1901 he has followed another > of his brothers and was a "Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer". Perhaps an accident, ill health, lack of financial security or simply not enjoying the work could be responsible for the changes. Just as people today make radical career changes, as you illustrated, I think the same could have happened in the past. Somewhere along the line, a belief has arisen that whilst those in the past may have had hard lives, they were nevertheless perfect, didn't move from where they were born, did the same job all their lives, were well behaved God-fearing people who didn't digress from the straight and narrow. It only takes a few years of genealogical research to discover that the above was not true for all by ny means. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:09:53 -0000 "Liz" <e.newbery@btinternet.com> wrote: Hello Liz, > Another which I still can't comprehend - an Ag Lab who became > a teacher!! Don't forget that the term Ag Lab is a catch all. Some of those jobs were quite skilled. Okay, it was still manual work, so still quite a leap. Unless he was teaching at agricultural college. :-) -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent"

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:29:39 +0000 Charani <familyhunter@family-hunter.co.uk> wrote: Hello Charani, > Makes sense and it could have happened back then as well, that's why I > added "on the face of it" :)) Subtle. :-) > The only way I could see that working out was if he'd apprenticed and > possibly qualified as a coppersmith, then became a musician but went Agreed. Any type of smithing work copper, silver, etc. would require training. An interesting little puzzle, this. > That, though, begs the question: how did he keep his skills up > during the musical period. Doing the odd job here and there, maybe? -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent"