----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Stockdill" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 1:23 PM Subject: [B&D] John HORWOOD hanged 1821 Bristol New Gaol 4) Were descendants of the girl murdered by John Horwood traced and asked for their views? Were there any? Caroline

Roy Stockdill wrote: > This story has just appeared on the GENBRIT list under the thread header "Nasty > shock for family historians". I noticed > I am well aware that some > will not agree with me - I find this somewhat bizarre for the following reasons.... This is one of the rare occasions when I completely agree with you. There are still a good many researchers who don't or won't accept that some ancestors weren't whiter than white. Our ancestors were human beings and as such were as fallible as we are today. > And when we take it upon ourselves to right the perceived wrongs of an earlier age, > almost two centuries ago, we are going down a very dangerous road of political > correctness indeed !!! Who knows what lawsuits and legal battles might overwhelm > our courts if we accepted the principle that descendants of people who were executed > long ago had the right to sue today? HM The Queen, for one, would NEVER be out of > the courts, considering the vast numbers executed by her ancestors ! HRH's representatives wouldn't be. As you say, the wrongs of yesterday can't be undone or corrected. They have to be accepted in the light of the times in which they occurred. > 4) Were descendants of the girl murdered by John Horwood traced and asked for > their views? Apparently not. If they were, they may well have thought it rather bizarre as well and declined to become a party to it all. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

My grandfather, Henry Thomas COX. Private, No 71853, 11th Battalion, Notts & Derbyshire Regiment of the Sherwood Foresters.  He was missing in action 7 June 1917, the first day of the Battle of Messines.   His name is inscribed on the Menin Gate, Ieper.  My uncle, Ronald COX.  Killed RAF Finningley, 19 August 1943. Both descendants of the COX family of Kilmersdon.Joy 

> From: Charani <[email protected]> > Subject: [B&D] John HORWOOD hanged 1821 Bristol New Gaol > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:37:40 +0000 > www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11711858 > This is an interesting piece, with a somewhat gruesome twist, about > John HORWOOD, the first man to be publically hangedin Bristol's New > Gaol, in 1821, goes to show what you might turn up during research. > The full story is here: > www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/3240914647/ < This story has just appeared on the GENBRIT list under the thread header "Nasty shock for family historians". Apparently, a collateral descendant (not a direct one) of John Horwood has won a court order releasing his skeleton for burial after it has been at Bristol University for almost 200 years. Personally - and I am well aware that some will not agree with me - I find this somewhat bizarre for the following reasons.... I find it difficult to believe that the descendant is a genuine family historian. No real family historian would surely get upset about something that happened almost 200 years ago and go to the somewhat bizarre lengths of claiming the bones of an ancestor and having them reburied. I find it hard to believe that the court acceeded to the claim, either. Here are a few points to bear in mind..... 1) In the early 19th century it was a very common occurrence indeed for people who were executed for murder to have their bodies given over to the doctors for medical science research. It was a ROUTINE event in those very different times. For the descendant to talk about, as she does, "barbaric" treatment in having the body dissected and his skin used to bind a book cover strongly suggests to me that she cannot be a real historian or she would surely have known this fact? She is making the usual mistake that so many beginners make of looking at things that happened in an earlier century through a mindset of modern values! Yes, of course it was barbaric to us today to think of someone being skinned and the skin sold as souvenirs. However, this is exactly what happened in another case from the same period with which I am very familiar, having researched and written about it and lectured on it. I refer to that of MARY BATEMAN, the notorious Yorkshire Witch, who was hanged at York in 1809 for murder by poisoning. Her body was transported from York to Leeds by cart, accompanied by a large multitude of people and greeted by thousands on arrival at Leeds. It was than put on public display and fashionable ladies and gentlemen paid threepence each to watch a distinguished surgeon carry out the post mortem and dissection of the Witch's body. Leeds Infirmary raised some £30 with this unusual form of fund-raising, plus her skin was tanned and sold as souvenirs. As I have explained, this was quite a common occurrence where the bodies of executed murderers were concerned. Much of the skeleton of Mary Bateman, minus legs and arms, still exists today in the Thackray Medical Museum in Leeds and is on display in a case. Presumably, any living descendants of Mary Bateman - and I happen to know of a girl in Leeds who claims to be one - could bring a similar claim to a court to have the remains of Mary Bateman released to them for reburial. This would be a travesty, since the Witch's skeleton is an important part of the museum's displays and, as such, surely belongs to the museum and also to the public who still pay money today to view it. 2) Nowhere can I see which court it was that made the decision to hand over the skeleton of the hanged man in Bristol, however I find it difficult to credit that a judge could have done so. If the dissection was part of the original sentence (and apparently it was), then the body ceased to be the property of the family and became the property of whatever hospital it was bequeathed to. According to the law as it existed at the time, the victim's family ceased to have any rights in it. And when we take it upon ourselves to right the perceived wrongs of an earlier age, almost two centuries ago, we are going down a very dangerous road of political correctness indeed !!! Who knows what lawsuits and legal battles might overwhelm our courts if we accepted the principle that descendants of people who were executed long ago had the right to sue today? HM The Queen, for one, would NEVER be out of the courts, considering the vast numbers executed by her ancestors ! 3) As I said, this woman is NOT apparently a direct descendant but a collateral one descended from a different line of the family. Has she shown she is the only descendant or nearest next of kin? 4) Were descendants of the girl murdered by John Horwood traced and asked for their views? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Harold Edward Thomas died 26 Aug 1918 in,,,France {aged 20} buried in plot3 row c grave 26,Peronne Rd Cemetery,Maricourt,France Mike in Droitwich

Bless these brave men and women: http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp Edna - Ottawa

Remembering all those of all nations who fell defending their country in all wars and those who served and survived Remembering especially: ANDOW, Ernest Wilfred R Private Gloucestershire Regiment 26 7/6/1917 WWI ANDOW, James Percy Motor Mechanic Royal Navy 20 2/2/1943 WWII AHERN, John 2nd Lt US Army Air Corps 379 Heavy Bomber Group O-926285 22 16/12/1944 WWII http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~aherns/ltjahern.htm COLLINGRIDGE, Elizabeth Civilian 64 14/11/1940 WWII COLLINGRIDGE, Eric Edward Petty Officer Royal Navy 50 19/12/1978 Suez COLLINGRIDGE, Horatio Montefiore Private Army 32 4 May 1913 Boer War COLLINGRIDGE, John Sergeant Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 1575031 20 28 Jan 1943 WWII CWGC http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1084736 COLLINGRIDGE, Russell Lewis Private Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regiment) 202192 16 8/10/1916 WWI CUNNINGHAM, Robert Alexander Sqn Ldr RAF 56144 81 6/2004 WWII - Remembered with affection JOYCE, Frank Rupert Private Royal Fusiliers SP/2615 19 31/7/1916 WWI CWGC http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=797226 PARKER, Clarence Conrad Private Army 51 10/11/1948 WWI PONSFORD Albert Edward Army (Gurkhas) 72 3/2/1982 WWII PYE John Thomas Private Army 83 1/5/1973 WWI -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Frank HOLLINGS 1895-1915, son of Isaac and Emily HOLLINGS (nee WALKER) of Sandal Magna West Yorkshire. Buried at Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery Poperinge Belgium. RIP Yvonne Scrivener Canberra ACT Australia

Arthur John "Jack" BENNETT c1894-1916, son of Henry and Alvenia Lydia BENNETT (nee WAREHAM), of Bristol. Buried at Lonsdale Cemetery Authuile France RIP Yvonne Scrivener Canberra ACT Australia

Hi List, I know its jumping the gun a bit but heres our list, will be in London on the 11th. Lest we forget on Remembrance Day and give thanks to all those who made the sacrifice. Brothers Charles William Whittemore - 7 Bedfordshire, later 4 Bedfordshire Died 27 Aug 1918 Frederick Arthur Whittemore MM and Bar - 7 Royal Sussex Died 26 Aug 1918 Frank Henry Oakley - 235099 Private 9 Suffolk Died 19 Jan 1918 buried at BEAUMETZ CROSS ROADS CEMETERY, BEAUMETZ-LES-CAMBRAI Wilfred Fisher Private G/12611. 8th Bn., The Buffs (East Kent Regiment). Killed in action Thursday 14 June 1917. Age 23. Commemorated on YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL, Ieper, Belgium. Panel 12 and 14 Arthur L Willingham 30685 Lance Corporal 4th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment died 30 October 1917. Remembered on Tyne Cot Memorial in the Ypres Salient Joseph French Private 14223, 1st Bn., Bedfordshire Regiment who died age 27 on 4 September 1916 Remembered with honour on the THIEPVAL MEMORIAL Alfred Thomas Brookman 8 Somerset Light Infantry died 2 July 1916 Peter Darrington Private 20317, "D" Company, 7th Battalion, Bedfordshire Regiment. Killed in action 1st July 1916 in France & Flanders. Commemorated on THIEPVAL MEMORIAL, Somme, France. Pier and Face 2 C. Mentioned in the National Roll of the Great War, Bedford/Northampton, page 66. RUTLAND Herbert George Private 27569, 1st Battalion, Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire Regiment). Died 16th November 1918. Formerly 38565, Rifle Brigade Edward Nicholson Wounded but survived WW1 And those who served Daniel Little - 15 DLI Harry Whittemore Joined Royal Marines about 1910 served as Gunner on HMS New Zealand Nelson and Warspite including the Battle of Jutland, with Warspite demobbed 1931 but called up from the Reserve for WWII Served as Anti-Aircraft Gunner on Merchant Ships in Convoys. William Eli Howell - 2/6 Glosters Henry Howell - 1st Glosters John Moffat Telford - MGC Robert Cecil Telford - RFC World War 2 Cyril William Watts 57 Sqn RAFVR died 2 March 1945 James Norman Dickinson Royal Artillery died 21 Jan 1942 El Alamein Gordon Morgan Palestine Police died 12 Jan 1947 buried at Haifa George Little 52 Light Anti-Aircraft Artillery later 51 Light Anti-Aircraft Artillery and 10th Royal Hussars (Prince of Wales Own) served in France, Dunkirk, North Africa (1st Army) and Italy. Gladys May Little worked making Churchill Tanks in Luton and all the other women who worked so hard during the war. Also the crew of C130 Hercules Callsign Hilton 22 in Jan 2005 and all those who have lost their lives. Remembering with pride and gratitude Pete & Vida Barker

On Armistice Day on Thursday, please post the names of the fallen, those who served as well as those who are serving in a thread I'll start tomorrow around midday UK time. As always these do NOT have to be list specific. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11711858 This is an interesting piece, with a somewhat gruesome twist, about John HORWOOD, the first man to be publically hangedin Bristol's New Gaol, in 1821, goes to show what you might turn up during research. The full story is here: www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/3240914647/ -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Google Books: Kellys directory of Somersetshire: with city of Bristol by Kellys (;-)) Edna - Ottawa

Ancestry are offering free access to their UK military records from 7 -14 Nov which might be useful for anyone without an Ancestry subscription. The records covered are: British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 British Army WWI Pension Records, 1914-1920 British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 Registration (free) will be required. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Edna, Can confirm that shop on Christmas Steps; used to visit it in the 50s and 60s, and buy stink bombs to take to school in Clifton! Peter On 11/6/10, liverpud <[email protected]> wrote: > PS: > > On google maps, I saw a Joke Shop on Colston Rd... > probably the one originally on the Christmas Steps. > > Edna - Ottawa > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is an edited version of the announcement. I've deleted the information we know already about the census :)) TheGenealogist is a subscription site. If anyone is intending to use this site to access the 1911 in due course, please read the T+Cs first. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: S&N Email News - 1911 Census Annoucement Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 19:40:50 GMT From: S&N Genealogy Supplies<[email protected]> TheGenealogist is proud to announce that the 1911 census will be available on our website. The project will start late 2010, with an anticipated completion date of summer 2011. <http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/1911>. The 1911 Census is a crucial step for many in finding their roots and we feel that this vital resource should be available to you. TheGenealogist.co.uk will transcribe the census records to create fully searchable records, using our unique search tools including the Keyword Master Search, Family Forename Search, and House and Street Search. -------- Original Message ends -------- -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Watched an excellent DVD the other evening WWII in Color, excellent film taken during the war. It's about 3-1/2 hours long but it can be viewed by chapter. You may be able to order it from your Library DVD 940.5344 C719 (;-)) Edna - Ottawa

http://www.francisfrith.com/bristol/photos/christmas-steps-c1935_b212193/ Edna - Ottawa

PS: On google maps, I saw a Joke Shop on Colston Rd... probably the one originally on the Christmas Steps. Edna - Ottawa

St. Paul's Church, Bedminster Bristol This stone was blessed by the Lord Bishop of Bristol after being laid by Canon W. Kingsley Martin Encumbent of this church when it was destroyed by enemy action on Good Friday 1941. (11 April 1941) --- I have a not-so-good photo of this stone but thought you might like to have the details. Edna ~ Ottawa