Re: Stump/Kimmel/Martin I should have stressed when I commented on Wayne's comment that I was making a general point about what Wayne said, and did not intend to question Merle's work in regard to the subject or any of his other work. Merle has been doing this for a long time, and knows how to do things the right way. He has been clear as to areas he had questions, and identifies his sources. I apologize for not being clear as to what I was commenting on. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Merle C Rummel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:20 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com; Mary Elizabeth Stump Subject: Re: [BRE] Stump, Kimmel, Martin, et al I was making a point about this Rachel Martin yes, she married Francis Stump, a Brethren Minister (possibly Elder) - and we do not know much about him - was he in Brothers Valley (where George Adam Martin lived)? - or in Westmoreland Co? - several of the sources on him stated his origin in "Cumberland Co PA (now Mifflin)." - yes, some say "Germantown" also - if she is the Rachel Martin, daughter of Eberhard Martin (died c1784 Cumberland Co PA -Mifflin) - then two of her sisters moved to Muhlenberg Co KY - one of them (Gilbert Vaught/Mary Martin) were with the first Brethren migraiton with Capt Henry Rhoads - in 1785 - the other (John Vaught/Elizabeth Martin) following, "a couple years later" Rachel Martin - and Francis Stump came to Muhlenberg Co probably in 1797 or 1798 (only son Frederick -murdered on Green River, 1799) Elizabeth Stump (e-mail 12 Nov 2007) stated that Francis Stump's will named Rachel as daughter of George Adam Martin - could someone verify this? she mentions a book by Julia Cook Guice: "Frederick Stump, The Best of the Story" - is this book possibly available? I find none of the identified children of George Adam Martin going to Kentucky, let alone, Muhlenberg Co KY about half of them go to South Carolina (Newberry Co [David and George Jr] and Ninety-Six District [James and John]) - or Georgia (Jones Co [Elijah]) - the only one who went west seems to be Maryem, who married Stephen Hill in 1784, and moved to Delaware Co OH so - for "community" - there is not a connection of Rachel to George Adam Martin - there IS a connection of Rachel to Eberhard Martin - and the various researchers give different parentage for each - so they are not brothers. the second point about this Rachel Martin/Francis Stump family - there seem to have been 4 children (not including the David Washabaugh Jr - who changed his name to Stump) - the only son - Frederick - was "brutally murdered" while fishing on the Green River - in 1799 -there were three daughters - and I will accept their names as Elizabeth (c1790), Mary (c1792) and Barbara (c1794) they are identified as (and had I accepted these marriages - until I began to check the Muhlenberg area data -on community and churches) Elizabeth marrying John Vought (note the letter difference - a/o in Vaught/Vought) Mary marrying Gilbert Vought Barbara marrying a Frampton but - John Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY in 1785, was married to Elizabeth Martin, dau of Eberhard Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son John - married Mary Hunsinger in 1818 - and went to Butler Co KS Gilbert did not have a son John and - Gilbert Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY possibly 1788, was married to Mary Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son Gilbert - married Mary Adams in 1839 (lived in Muhlenberg Co KY) John did not have a son Gilbert [John and Gilbert are identified as brothers - from Washington Co MD, possibly via Washington Co PA] and - in tracing back on Eberhard Martin - he did have a daughter Barbara - Anna Barbara - who in 1780 married a John Frampton John Frampton was in the Cumberland Co Militia, Rangers, Col Alexander Brown in the Revolution (Indian battles) and John and Anna Barbara went to Beaver Co PA - not to Muhlenberg Co KY (I found no Framptons in Muhlenberg Co KY) my question then becomes - what information do we have on the children of Rachel Martin and Francis Stump I think there is a mis-identificaiton of who they married - I think Rachel Martin is not the daughter of George Adam Martin (if he even had a daughter, Rachel -which is not certain) ALSO - these Kentucky families were not essentially Anabaptists - yes, the Anabaptists emphasized "Community" but most of these "Frontier Brethren" were Pietists, with only the "trine immersion" being of Anabaptist belief (and "trine immersion" was not a true Anabaptist belief- it was Brethren - the Anabaptists believed in "Adult Baptism" - not necessarily "immersion") there were family connections for migration - but one of the problems the Annual Meeting Elders had with these Frontier Brethren and their Pietism, was that they were "open" and Not "closed community" the Pietists (and the Kentucky "Frontier Brethren") did not "separate themselves from the world" ("closed community") - like the Brethren and Mennonites ("back east") did during and after the American Revolution Merle C Rummel > The likely hood of someone marrying a spouse who lived many days travel from > the other is small. The typical marriage in those days was between > neighbors or blood relatives who also lived near by. Many of my Anabaptist > ancestors were second and third cousins and centuries of intermarriage among > the Amish community has exposed them to health issues that most people don't > have to deal with. > > Anabaptist theology dictated that they live and socialize among like minded > Anabaptists. This resulted in the development of Anabaptist communities, > and when migrations occurred it was typically in groups, as opposed to > individuals. You see this in the ship Allen, but also in passages of Amish > and Mennonites. It is rare to find a lone Amish or Mennonite family > traveling alone. In addition, marrying outside the Anabaptist community was > not encouraged. ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message