Morning List, I wish to add my two cent's worth on the topic Merle began while speaking of the Kentucky Brethren. I do not research in that region, not having original documentation from which to draw, but some observations can be made. There seems to be a point of contention as to who Rachel Martin was the daughter of. I believe this can be easily solved. Look on a map and locate Mifflin county, Pennsylvania. Then locate Somerset county. They are not close to each other. Now in your mind ask yourself this question. Would, in the late 1700's, a young girl have become associated with a man from a distant county? Likely not. Neither if logic prevails would she and her husband (Francis Stump) have been settling in Kentucky around others from another county in Pennsylvania. They would have settled among those they knew. Agreeably this is not proof either way or another, but it is all that we have without actual documentation from Kentucky or Pennsylvania. I wish also to point out that George Adam Martin, an interesting man by all accounts, is not an easy man to document. I have yet to discover any individual who has original documentation. A lot of people have references to those records or stories from World Connect, but no one has that documentation. I do have somewhere in this disaster area a copy of the Ephrata Christ... Biblio... but don't ask me where it is. I think I published it, or intended to do so, but do not recall if I ever did so. That being said I have looked in both Somerset and Bedford county to no avail. I find his nephew John, also a minister, but nothing for George Adam himself. Whether or not there is anything in Westmoreland county I cannot say but it would be interesting to know of any documentation in that county. We can place him there by records other than Cooper's writings, Redstone Meeting, but as to any official records I have heard no mention. I do wish to point out something to the general populace. If you want some background information on the Stump, Kimmel and Martin families, admittedly from a German Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) church aspect I would recommend locating a copy of the Adams County 18th Century Church Records book. There are names listed in it that will be of interest to those interested in Brethren and general history of both Bedford and Somerset counties. In closing I will state that though Cooper leaves a lot to be disired in all of his writings we must at least use it as a starting point, presuming it has some merit in truth, and make a strident effort to document his statements. Ans there is a connection between George Adam Martin's son David, through David's wife, back to the Allen of 1729. Wayne Webb

Just working on the Montgomery County, Indiana Site this morning, and did a couple of Stump obits. (George Stump Family out of Kentucky) So If anyone is looking to trace this family some information will be shortly uploaded at http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/s/ Scroll down for the surnames of your needs...:) Thanks Wayne, Dwight and Merle for all you folks post here, it is all very interesting and useful. Jeff Scism Wayne Webb wrote: > Morning List, > > I wish to add my two cent's worth on the topic Merle began while speaking of the Kentucky Brethren. I do not research in that region, not having original documentation from which to draw, but some observations can be made. > > There seems to be a point of contention as to who Rachel Martin was the daughter of. I believe this can be easily solved. Look on a map and locate Mifflin county, Pennsylvania. Then locate Somerset county. They are not close to each other. Now in your mind ask yourself this question. Would, in the late 1700's, a young girl have become associated with a man from a distant county? Likely not. > > Neither if logic prevails would she and her husband (Francis Stump) have been settling in Kentucky around others from another county in Pennsylvania. They would have settled among those they knew. Agreeably this is not proof either way or another, but it is all that we have without actual documentation from Kentucky or Pennsylvania. > > I wish also to point out that George Adam Martin, an interesting man by all accounts, is not an easy man to document. I have yet to discover any individual who has original documentation. A lot of people have references to those records or stories from World Connect, but no one has that documentation. I do have somewhere in this disaster area a copy of the Ephrata Christ... Biblio... but don't ask me where it is. I think I published it, or intended to do so, but do not recall if I ever did so. > > That being said I have looked in both Somerset and Bedford county to no avail. I find his nephew John, also a minister, but nothing for George Adam himself. Whether or not there is anything in Westmoreland county I cannot say but it would be interesting to know of any documentation in that county. We can place him there by records other than Cooper's writings, Redstone Meeting, but as to any official records I have heard no mention. > > I do wish to point out something to the general populace. If you want some background information on the Stump, Kimmel and Martin families, admittedly from a German Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) church aspect I would recommend locating a copy of the Adams County 18th Century Church Records book. There are names listed in it that will be of interest to those interested in Brethren and general history of both Bedford and Somerset counties. > > In closing I will state that though Cooper leaves a lot to be disired in all of his writings we must at least use it as a starting point, presuming it has some merit in truth, and make a strident effort to document his statements. Ans there is a connection between George Adam Martin's son David, through David's wife, back to the Allen of 1729. > > Wayne Webb > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1546 - Release Date: 7/11/2008 6:47 AM > > > > -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~ "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in its effect towards supporting free and good government." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Trustees for the Lottery of East Tennessee College, 6 May 1810) Reference: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Washington, ed., vol. 5 (521) Visit http://ibssg.org/blacksheep/ For the Intl. Blacksheep Society of Genealogists website Putnam County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inputnam/ Montgomery County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/ Fountain County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/infountain/

Wayne makes important points regarding geography and community. The likely hood of someone marrying a spouse who lived many days travel from the other is small. The typical marriage in those days was between neighbors or blood relatives who also lived near by. Many of my Anabaptist ancestors were second and third cousins and centuries of intermarriage among the Amish community has exposed them to health issues that most people don't have to deal with. Anabaptist theology dictated that they live and socialize among like minded Anabaptists. This resulted in the development of Anabaptist communities, and when migrations occurred it was typically in groups, as opposed to individuals. You see this in the ship Allen, but also in passages of Amish and Mennonites. It is rare to find a lone Amish or Mennonite family traveling alone. In addition, marrying outside the Anabaptist community was not encouraged. You still see that community philosophy today with the Amish. In the last ten years or so, an Amish community moved into the area I live in, purchasing a number of farms so a group of families could migrate to together. When you see claims on genealogies that go outside the norm that should bring out the yellow caution flag. Of course you need to study up to understand what the norm was to recognize deviations. When you see deviations from the norm, you need to start digging into the records and find out the real truth. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of foot work, and is not something you can do sitting at a computer screen. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Webb Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:19 AM To: Brethren Mailing List Subject: [BRE] Stump, Kimmel, Martin, et al Morning List, I wish to add my two cent's worth on the topic Merle began while speaking of the Kentucky Brethren. I do not research in that region, not having original documentation from which to draw, but some observations can be made. There seems to be a point of contention as to who Rachel Martin was the daughter of. I believe this can be easily solved. Look on a map and locate Mifflin county, Pennsylvania. Then locate Somerset county. They are not close to each other. Now in your mind ask yourself this question. Would, in the late 1700's, a young girl have become associated with a man from a distant county? Likely not. Neither if logic prevails would she and her husband (Francis Stump) have been settling in Kentucky around others from another county in Pennsylvania. They would have settled among those they knew. Agreeably this is not proof either way or another, but it is all that we have without actual documentation from Kentucky or Pennsylvania. I wish also to point out that George Adam Martin, an interesting man by all accounts, is not an easy man to document. I have yet to discover any individual who has original documentation. A lot of people have references to those records or stories from World Connect, but no one has that documentation. I do have somewhere in this disaster area a copy of the Ephrata Christ... Biblio... but don't ask me where it is. I think I published it, or intended to do so, but do not recall if I ever did so. That being said I have looked in both Somerset and Bedford county to no avail. I find his nephew John, also a minister, but nothing for George Adam himself. Whether or not there is anything in Westmoreland county I cannot say but it would be interesting to know of any documentation in that county. We can place him there by records other than Cooper's writings, Redstone Meeting, but as to any official records I have heard no mention. I do wish to point out something to the general populace. If you want some background information on the Stump, Kimmel and Martin families, admittedly from a German Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) church aspect I would recommend locating a copy of the Adams County 18th Century Church Records book. There are names listed in it that will be of interest to those interested in Brethren and general history of both Bedford and Somerset counties. In closing I will state that though Cooper leaves a lot to be disired in all of his writings we must at least use it as a starting point, presuming it has some merit in truth, and make a strident effort to document his statements. Ans there is a connection between George Adam Martin's son David, through David's wife, back to the Allen of 1729. Wayne Webb ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was making a point about this Rachel Martin yes, she married Francis Stump, a Brethren Minister (possibly Elder) - and we do not know much about him - was he in Brothers Valley (where George Adam Martin lived)? - or in Westmoreland Co? - several of the sources on him stated his origin in "Cumberland Co PA (now Mifflin)." - yes, some say "Germantown" also - if she is the Rachel Martin, daughter of Eberhard Martin (died c1784 Cumberland Co PA -Mifflin) - then two of her sisters moved to Muhlenberg Co KY - one of them (Gilbert Vaught/Mary Martin) were with the first Brethren migraiton with Capt Henry Rhoads - in 1785 - the other (John Vaught/Elizabeth Martin) following, "a couple years later" Rachel Martin - and Francis Stump came to Muhlenberg Co probably in 1797 or 1798 (only son Frederick -murdered on Green River, 1799) Elizabeth Stump (e-mail 12 Nov 2007) stated that Francis Stump's will named Rachel as daughter of George Adam Martin - could someone verify this? she mentions a book by Julia Cook Guice: "Frederick Stump, The Best of the Story" - is this book possibly available? I find none of the identified children of George Adam Martin going to Kentucky, let alone, Muhlenberg Co KY about half of them go to South Carolina (Newberry Co [David and George Jr] and Ninety-Six District [James and John]) - or Georgia (Jones Co [Elijah]) - the only one who went west seems to be Maryem, who married Stephen Hill in 1784, and moved to Delaware Co OH so - for "community" - there is not a connection of Rachel to George Adam Martin - there IS a connection of Rachel to Eberhard Martin - and the various researchers give different parentage for each - so they are not brothers. the second point about this Rachel Martin/Francis Stump family - there seem to have been 4 children (not including the David Washabaugh Jr - who changed his name to Stump) - the only son - Frederick - was "brutally murdered" while fishing on the Green River - in 1799 -there were three daughters - and I will accept their names as Elizabeth (c1790), Mary (c1792) and Barbara (c1794) they are identified as (and had I accepted these marriages - until I began to check the Muhlenberg area data -on community and churches) Elizabeth marrying John Vought (note the letter difference - a/o in Vaught/Vought) Mary marrying Gilbert Vought Barbara marrying a Frampton but - John Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY in 1785, was married to Elizabeth Martin, dau of Eberhard Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son John - married Mary Hunsinger in 1818 - and went to Butler Co KS Gilbert did not have a son John and - Gilbert Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY possibly 1788, was married to Mary Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son Gilbert - married Mary Adams in 1839 (lived in Muhlenberg Co KY) John did not have a son Gilbert [John and Gilbert are identified as brothers - from Washington Co MD, possibly via Washington Co PA] and - in tracing back on Eberhard Martin - he did have a daughter Barbara - Anna Barbara - who in 1780 married a John Frampton John Frampton was in the Cumberland Co Militia, Rangers, Col Alexander Brown in the Revolution (Indian battles) and John and Anna Barbara went to Beaver Co PA - not to Muhlenberg Co KY (I found no Framptons in Muhlenberg Co KY) my question then becomes - what information do we have on the children of Rachel Martin and Francis Stump I think there is a mis-identificaiton of who they married - I think Rachel Martin is not the daughter of George Adam Martin (if he even had a daughter, Rachel -which is not certain) ALSO - these Kentucky families were not essentially Anabaptists - yes, the Anabaptists emphasized "Community" but most of these "Frontier Brethren" were Pietists, with only the "trine immersion" being of Anabaptist belief (and "trine immersion" was not a true Anabaptist belief- it was Brethren - the Anabaptists believed in "Adult Baptism" - not necessarily "immersion") there were family connections for migration - but one of the problems the Annual Meeting Elders had with these Frontier Brethren and their Pietism, was that they were "open" and Not "closed community" the Pietists (and the Kentucky "Frontier Brethren") did not "separate themselves from the world" ("closed community") - like the Brethren and Mennonites ("back east") did during and after the American Revolution Merle C Rummel > The likely hood of someone marrying a spouse who lived many days travel from > the other is small. The typical marriage in those days was between > neighbors or blood relatives who also lived near by. Many of my Anabaptist > ancestors were second and third cousins and centuries of intermarriage among > the Amish community has exposed them to health issues that most people don't > have to deal with. > > Anabaptist theology dictated that they live and socialize among like minded > Anabaptists. This resulted in the development of Anabaptist communities, > and when migrations occurred it was typically in groups, as opposed to > individuals. You see this in the ship Allen, but also in passages of Amish > and Mennonites. It is rare to find a lone Amish or Mennonite family > traveling alone. In addition, marrying outside the Anabaptist community was > not encouraged.