I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman

Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is!                           Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733.  They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses.  Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756.  The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s.  All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War.  Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate.  (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene.  Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest.  Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel.  Why?  For various reasons.  John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own.  His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s.  If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller.  The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife.  Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above.  I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman                                ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN                                ------------------------                         Support Our Sponsoring Agency             The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected]                                ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think there are a LOT us waiting to exhale. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sparky Wride Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is! Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ellen, after spending much of the day yesterday mulling it over, I simply don't have enough evidence to go forward with the idea that Elder John Garber Sr. of PA, MD, and VA was married prior to his marriage to Barbara Miller. For three years I have been looking for the John Gerber/Garber who was married to Anna Kauffman (daughter of Henry Kauffman of Manheim Township, Lancaster County). Based on thinking about it yesterday and last night, I don't believe that the Elder John Garber who was married to Barbara Miller had a previous marriage with Anna Kauffman. I'm sorry for stirring up the pot. Incidentally, for those who are interested in the 1787 will of Elder John Garber, in which he names his ten children, presumably in birth order, it was recorded in Shenandoah County, Virginia, Will Book B, page 409. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sparky Wride Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 1:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is!                           Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733.  They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses.  Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756.  The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s.  All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War.  Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate.  (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene.  Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest.  Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel.  Why?  For various reasons.  John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own.  His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s.  If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller.  The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife.  Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above.  I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman

Dwayne, Your logic about the birth order of the sons is very sound, enough so that I am going to revise the estimated birthdates for Martin and John Jr. in my database, citing your logic. (John Garber Jr. is my 5G grandfather, through his daughter Magdalena who married Daniel Frantz 1763-1843.) Do you have other reasons besides the age difference between John Sr. and Barbara for suspecting that she was not his first wife? Even if they were married as early as 1750, a marriage between a 33 year old man and a 17 year old woman does not seem at all unusual for the time to me. My genealogy database contains over 320 couples (out of a total of about 24,000) where the bride's age at the time of marriage was 17 or under and the age difference between the spouses was 12 or more years. (The most extreme two such were a marriage between a 55 year old groom and a 14 year old bride, and one between a 63 year old groom and a 16 year old bride.) Admittedly, in both those extreme cases, it was a third marriage for the husband. However, 139 of them fit the search terms that they were first marriages for both parties, the groom was under 40, and the age difference was at least 15 years. So while it is certainly possible that his marriage to Barbara Miller was not the first marriage for John Garber Sr., it doesn't seem like their ages alone are enough to suggest so. ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 7:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dwyane: John Jr. was fined more than his brothers Martin and Samuel, but less than his father John. Not sure what that means, but it could imply he was older. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message