Teri, Yes, I do have a related reason, which has to do with the age differences between the children. What follows is the list of the children in the order as their names were listed in the 1787 will, with specific dates of birth (which many compilers seem to agree upon) added after each name: (1) John Garber Jr. (2) Samuel Garber (3) Martin Garber (4) Anna Garber (5) Abraham Garber - 10 Nov. 1760 (6) Jacob Garber - 31 Dec. 1766 (7) Daniel - ?1769? (8) Catherine - 15 March 1771 (9) Joseph - 10 Aug. 1773 (10) Magdalene - 14 June 1774 Except for Daniel, the dates of birth are consistent with the order of the listing in the will. If the list in the will was truly in birth order it would mean that the first four children were born prior to 1760 (which fits John, Samuel, and Martin having to pay fines for non-enrollment in April 1776). My guess as to why the gaps between Abraham and Jacob have been filled in by compilers is to make for a good fit between births, but, as we know, that is not genealogy. The gaps between each of the first five births cannot be validated without birthdates for the first four children. The gaps between the last five births are quite normal. But the gap between Abraham and Jacob is six years, which is a fairly wide gap given what we know about the births of the younger children. Ergo, I suspect that a first wife died sometime after 1760 and that Elder John Garber Sr. married Barbara Miller sometime between 1760 and 1766. Also, we don't know when Barbara Miller was born. 1733 is just guesswork. She may have been born even later (or earlier and gone on strike between the first five births and the last five) Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Teri Pettit Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 3:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, Your logic about the birth order of the sons is very sound, enough so that I am going to revise the estimated birthdates for Martin and John Jr. in my database, citing your logic. (John Garber Jr. is my 5G grandfather, through his daughter Magdalena who married Daniel Frantz 1763-1843.) Do you have other reasons besides the age difference between John Sr. and Barbara for suspecting that she was not his first wife? Even if they were married as early as 1750, a marriage between a 33 year old man and a 17 year old woman does not seem at all unusual for the time to me. My genealogy database contains over 320 couples (out of a total of about 24,000) where the bride's age at the time of marriage was 17 or under and the age difference between the spouses was 12 or more years. (The most extreme two such were a marriage between a 55 year old groom and a 14 year old bride, and one between a 63 year old groom and a 16 year old bride.) Admittedly, in both those extreme cases, it was a third marriage for the husband. However, 139 of them fit the search terms that they were first marriages for both parties, the groom was under 40, and the age difference was at least 15 years. So while it is certainly possible that his marriage to Barbara Miller was not the first marriage for John Garber Sr., it doesn't seem like their ages alone are enough to suggest so. ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 7:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman