> I find it almost incomprehensible that poor hardworking pioneers would pull up stakes and move with great difficulty, over a minuscule question of the order of activities at their service. Or is this just one of many reasons they move? After "cutting off" what did they do, religiously, besides moving away? > Then in your later message you amaze me when you say that our ancestor Isham himself was cut off much later! Why? > I've just finished researching these Kentucky Churches of 1780-1820. I call my book: The Frontier Brethren. Isham Gibson called them - the Western Brethren (but I didn't have this letter when I wrote my book). There were some 20 settlements in Kentucky, 5 or 6 in far southern Indiana and two in Ohio. They often had more than one church area (usually limiting travel time to one hour - or about 2-3 miles by horse). Those were the days before we were the German Baptist Brethren - we were just the Baptist Brethren (Taufer Gemein). These included as ministers, two brothers of Daniel Boone: George Boone and Squire Boone Jr. Isham Gibson came from Tennessee to the most western of these congregations - to Muhlenberg Co KY - then moved on to Illinois. These Brethren mostly came from the Carolinas, but some came from Western Pennsylvania. They had moved to these areas in the 1750s and 1760s. Their worship and faith was still the original Pietism they brought over from Germany (1719, Peter Becker, and 1729, Alexander Mack). There had been a major earthquake at New Madrid MO (Christmas - 811), on the Mississippi River (about 8.9 on the Richter Scale - 3 major shocks, about a month apart - followed by 2 years of heavy aftershocks - about 7.0). This fueled the Great Revival, which had only previously started in Kentucky, and these Frontier Brethren were much involved and there were some Revival changes in these Frontier Brethren. During the American Revolution, the Brethren of Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland and the Valley of Virginia faced persecution because of their anti-war stance. They associated with local Mennonite groups (Anabaptist). Since we held to a little Anabaptist beliefs (our immersion baptism, and adult, believer's baptism) these Easter Brethren became more Anabaptist, and because of conflicts with the Radical Pietists at Ephrata Cloisters - they rejected much of their Pietism. I call them the Annual Meeting Brethren, because this was the time of the development of the Annual Meeting and the Elders Body - controlling organizations of leadership for the church. They made some changes to the original way some of the ordinances were practiced (the order of the communion service was one such). They called these: "The Ancient Traditions", and became very legalistic about their practice. The Frontier Brethren were gone long before most of the Annual Meeting changes began to occur, and they were distant enough, that it seems they knew little or nothing about what the Annual Meeting Elders were doing. As the National Road opened migration west (c1825) and migration from the east poured into the Miami Valley of Ohio (Dayton area especially), the differences between these two groups of Brethren stood out. The Annual Meeting group refused to allow Brethren to practice different from the Ancient Traditions. The leaders were put on the Ban - in the above letter situation - two Elders of the Frontier Brethren were especially noted - Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hahn - although we have found several others that received punishment. Teams of eastern Elders were sent out - 2 x 2 - seemingly to all, or most of these Frontier churches. I found 5 records, with indications of more. The Frontier Brethren formed a defense in what they called: "the Brethren Association" - to hold to their own traditions of early Pietism. The "Boy Preacher", Joseph Hostetler, went to Annual Meeting back east in 1821, and protested some about the differences. He raised one issue from the "Revival" - "Single Immersion - would go to heaven!" - and the conference agreed - but the Elders didn't like it (we believe in "trine immersion" - SINGLE Immersion - horrors). That seems to have immediately preceded the Ban on his uncle, Elder Adam Hostetler. Another concept has to be included - the Brethren believed in the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their deliberations. There could not be two opposing opinions, if all were asking the Holy Spirit for direction. There could only be a unanimous vote! But - These "Strange Brethren" did not practice the "Ancient Traditions". They must change - or be "cut off" The Brethren Association said that they were "expelled". This letter uses the term "cut off" I took Abraham Cassel's number of 1500 to mean 1500 families -which seems to be close to the numbers I followed. Many of these Frontier Brethren went along with the Revival. Alexander Campbell became a leading influence, and so many of the Brethren congregations became Disciples of Christ - and now are Church of Christ. Others held on to their Pietist traditions - and since the origin of the Methodists was from the Moravians (Pietists) - a number of the churches became Methodists. (Asbury University, Wilmore KY, had the local Brethren Congregation become Methodist, involved in its founding.) Some of the Carolina Brethren had already been "attacked" over their Pietist belief in "Eternal Restoration" - not quite Universalism - and became Universalists. Others liked being Baptists - and were founding members of local Primitive Baptist and General Baptist Churches. Still others were Brethren - stayed Brethren - and migrated on - moved on to Missouri, Illinois and Iowa - as the origins of the Far Western Brethren - of 1859 Illinois conference - George Wolfe Jr. Even there, the Annual Meeting Elders insisted on the "Ancient Traditions" and some agreed - and others refused - and many were "cut off". The 1881-2 division of the Brethren into Progressives, German Baptists and "Old Order" cam partially over the compromises reached with the Far Western Brethren. The churches of Kentucky and far southern Indiana all disappeared (as Brethren). The Obannon Church (just east of Cincinnati - my congregation) and the Brush Creek Churches (east in Highland and Adams Cos OH - were my father preached) were the only ones of the Frontier Brethren Churches that remained German Baptist - and they had their problems with Annual Meeting - and also with the Revival Elder Peter Hahn. - but they are still in existance - as Stonelick and Strait Creek Churches (meetinghouses of the original churches) So - yes - there were problems and results, just as this letter tells - and that is what my book is about. If you are interested - I can give you information about these people and churches. My book is on CD - and about 300 pages. It traced some 75 Brethren families to Kentucky - and some of their children or grandchildren on to Missouri and Illinois as Brethren - so they were certainly Brethren in Kentucky - and i was able to confirm the general locations of the churches. There were no records remaining, just some local stories and traditions. I did not trace Elder Isham Gibson as one of the 75 families, although he did marry into one of the "minor" families, which went from York Co PA to Rowan Co NC to Muhlenberg Co KY to Sangamon Co IL - Elizabeth, daughter of Michael Gates. Merle C Rummel
Mr. Rummel Are you interested in offering copies of your book on CD for sale? It sounds like extremely informative reading for those of us who are tracing our Church of the Brethern Roots. If you are interested in selling copies of your work, what would you chagre per CD. Thank you for all the work you have done. I look forward to reading your comments on different subjects dealing with the Brethern that are posted here. They are especially helpful to those of us who are not brethern but have a little information pasted down from our grandparents and parents. Thank you, Sherry George and Sherry IN GOD WE TRUST --- On Mon, 1/31/11, Merle C Rummel <[email protected]> wrote: From: Merle C Rummel <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" To: [email protected] Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 6:13 PM > I find it almost incomprehensible that poor hardworking pioneers would pull up stakes and move with great difficulty, over a minuscule question of the order of activities at their service. Or is this just one of many reasons they move? After "cutting off" what did they do, religiously, besides moving away? > Then in your later message you amaze me when you say that our ancestor Isham himself was cut off much later! Why? > I've just finished researching these Kentucky Churches of 1780-1820. I call my book: The Frontier Brethren. Isham Gibson called them - the Western Brethren (but I didn't have this letter when I wrote my book). There were some 20 settlements in Kentucky, 5 or 6 in far southern Indiana and two in Ohio. They often had more than one church area (usually limiting travel time to one hour - or about 2-3 miles by horse). Those were the days before we were the German Baptist Brethren - we were just the Baptist Brethren (Taufer Gemein). These included as ministers, two brothers of Daniel Boone: George Boone and Squire Boone Jr. Isham Gibson came from Tennessee to the most western of these congregations - to Muhlenberg Co KY - then moved on to Illinois. These Brethren mostly came from the Carolinas, but some came from Western Pennsylvania. They had moved to these areas in the 1750s and 1760s. Their worship and faith was still the original Pietism they brought over from Germany (1719, Peter Becker, and 1729, Alexander Mack). There had been a major earthquake at New Madrid MO (Christmas - 811), on the Mississippi River (about 8.9 on the Richter Scale - 3 major shocks, about a month apart - followed by 2 years of heavy aftershocks - about 7.0). This fueled the Great Revival, which had only previously started in Kentucky, and these Frontier Brethren were much involved and there were some Revival changes in these Frontier Brethren. During the American Revolution, the Brethren of Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland and the Valley of Virginia faced persecution because of their anti-war stance. They associated with local Mennonite groups (Anabaptist). Since we held to a little Anabaptist beliefs (our immersion baptism, and adult, believer's baptism) these Easter Brethren became more Anabaptist, and because of conflicts with the Radical Pietists at Ephrata Cloisters - they rejected much of their Pietism. I call them the Annual Meeting Brethren, because this was the time of the development of the Annual Meeting and the Elders Body - controlling organizations of leadership for the church. They made some changes to the original way some of the ordinances were practiced (the order of the communion service was one such). They called these: "The Ancient Traditions", and became very legalistic about their practice. The Frontier Brethren were gone long before most of the Annual Meeting changes began to occur, and they were distant enough, that it seems they knew little or nothing about what the Annual Meeting Elders were doing. As the National Road opened migration west (c1825) and migration from the east poured into the Miami Valley of Ohio (Dayton area especially), the differences between these two groups of Brethren stood out. The Annual Meeting group refused to allow Brethren to practice different from the Ancient Traditions. The leaders were put on the Ban - in the above letter situation - two Elders of the Frontier Brethren were especially noted - Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hahn - although we have found several others that received punishment. Teams of eastern Elders were sent out - 2 x 2 - seemingly to all, or most of these Frontier churches. I found 5 records, with indications of more. The Frontier Brethren formed a defense in what they called: "the Brethren Association" - to hold to their own traditions of early Pietism. The "Boy Preacher", Joseph Hostetler, went to Annual Meeting back east in 1821, and protested some about the differences. He raised one issue from the "Revival" - "Single Immersion - would go to heaven!" - and the conference agreed - but the Elders didn't like it (we believe in "trine immersion" - SINGLE Immersion - horrors). That seems to have immediately preceded the Ban on his uncle, Elder Adam Hostetler. Another concept has to be included - the Brethren believed in the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their deliberations. There could not be two opposing opinions, if all were asking the Holy Spirit for direction. There could only be a unanimous vote! But - These "Strange Brethren" did not practice the "Ancient Traditions". They must change - or be "cut off" The Brethren Association said that they were "expelled". This letter uses the term "cut off" I took Abraham Cassel's number of 1500 to mean 1500 families -which seems to be close to the numbers I followed. Many of these Frontier Brethren went along with the Revival. Alexander Campbell became a leading influence, and so many of the Brethren congregations became Disciples of Christ - and now are Church of Christ. Others held on to their Pietist traditions - and since the origin of the Methodists was from the Moravians (Pietists) - a number of the churches became Methodists. (Asbury University, Wilmore KY, had the local Brethren Congregation become Methodist, involved in its founding.) Some of the Carolina Brethren had already been "attacked" over their Pietist belief in "Eternal Restoration" - not quite Universalism - and became Universalists. Others liked being Baptists - and were founding members of local Primitive Baptist and General Baptist Churches. Still others were Brethren - stayed Brethren - and migrated on - moved on to Missouri, Illinois and Iowa - as the origins of the Far Western Brethren - of 1859 Illinois conference - George Wolfe Jr. Even there, the Annual Meeting Elders insisted on the "Ancient Traditions" and some agreed - and others refused - and many were "cut off". The 1881-2 division of the Brethren into Progressives, German Baptists and "Old Order" cam partially over the compromises reached with the Far Western Brethren. The churches of Kentucky and far southern Indiana all disappeared (as Brethren). The Obannon Church (just east of Cincinnati - my congregation) and the Brush Creek Churches (east in Highland and Adams Cos OH - were my father preached) were the only ones of the Frontier Brethren Churches that remained German Baptist - and they had their problems with Annual Meeting - and also with the Revival Elder Peter Hahn. - but they are still in existance - as Stonelick and Strait Creek Churches (meetinghouses of the original churches) So - yes - there were problems and results, just as this letter tells - and that is what my book is about. If you are interested - I can give you information about these people and churches. My book is on CD - and about 300 pages. It traced some 75 Brethren families to Kentucky - and some of their children or grandchildren on to Missouri and Illinois as Brethren - so they were certainly Brethren in Kentucky - and i was able to confirm the general locations of the churches. There were no records remaining, just some local stories and traditions. I did not trace Elder Isham Gibson as one of the 75 families, although he did marry into one of the "minor" families, which went from York Co PA to Rowan Co NC to Muhlenberg Co KY to Sangamon Co IL - Elizabeth, daughter of Michael Gates. Merle C Rummel ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> > Are you interested in offering copies of your book on CD for sale? It sounds like extremely informative reading for those of us who are tracing our Church of the Brethern Roots. > > If you are interested in selling copies of your work, what would you chagre per CD. > > Thank you for all the work you have done. I look forward to reading your comments on different subjects dealing with the Brethern that are posted here. They are especially helpful to those of us who are not brethern but have a little information pasted down from our grandparents and parents. > > Thank you, Sherry I have already sent out CD copies - I have not set any price on it - so far I've done it free - I suppose total costs (CD, case and postage) come to about $5.00 - For some of you who have contacts to the various libraries of the Kentucky/Ohio Valley area - If they are intereted, I would be glad to send them copies. But after some new information I've gotten from Dwayne - If I get much more, I may do some rewriting - basic research would not change, nor most of the conclusions - just total package Merle C Rummel