Dwayne and all, I find this discussion to be fascinating and yet very challenging. I am only offering my penny's worth. Dwayne is right. There has to be a reason for this family connection. My grandfather was a family of 2 brothers marrying 2 sisters. But both families attended the same church! I have 2 brothers also marrying 2 sisters in the post Revolutionary era. They were close neighbors and both ended up in the Lutheran Church. In your example so many of the same family marrying so many others is truly fascinating. Take away religion, neighbors, and that leaves only a few options. There is the possibility that both had known each other previously, either in Europe or in early America. Or as someone else has suggested, there may be a familial relationship heretofore unknown. While religion is taken out of the equation, it may not completely be. So many of our early pioneers sought religion in so many different ways. In North Carolina where I have done most of my research, language dictated many marriages among religous groups. Also here few Anabaptists were able to continue their unique religious practices into the 19th Century. I have noticed some amount of conformity between Anabaptist and Reformed belief systems. What a unique problem. Trying to isolate it without proper documentation is going to be very challenging. I wish you good luck, Robert Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Rogers" <rogers922@intrstar.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:56 PM Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > Tossing in my 2 cents worth here - > > Could it have been the 1st marriage was the catalyst for the others? > Let's say Ann and Mark meet at a Love Fest and then marry. Letters > home, > from Ann, would then no doubt describe the personalities of the others in > the home, causing a desire to meet. > Let's then say that Ann and Mark wish to build a home, and Ann's family > comes to help build, meeting Mark's family. Friendships, attractions and > bonds are made. Other letters are exchanged by Ann to her family with a > line > or two that reads, "Rebecca, Jacob finds your sense of humor attractive, > or > Johann, Mary was very impressed with your strength.." > There next comes another Love Fest, another marriage and down the line. > It is not inconceivable that these matches came about through letters > home and the functions of marriages and funerals as well as the church's > Love Fest. > A bad crop at one end of the county could have led to others in the > church helping that family in other ways or helping them to build a home, > barn, maybe purchase cattle or seed. Just because you are separated by a > great distance then, didn't mean there wasn't communication of some sort. > Was there some sort of cattle auction there that all farmers attended > to > acquire stock? How about the once a month or season trek to a main town to > gather supplies that couldn't be home grown, (coffee, sugar, cloth, oil > for > lanterns, fat or wax for candles). There is always family gossip at these > times. > Then there is always word of mouth. One neighbor dies and his funeral > is > attended. One of the mourners writes a letter home and the information is > passed to others. This could have been the same with letting eligible men > and women know who was available for marriage. > > Blessings > Janet > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Joyce, My mother has one line from Daniel Frantz & Anna Garst/Gerst, one line from Daniel's second marriage to Magdalena Garver/Garber, and two lines from Christian Frantz and Mary Garst/Gerst. http://tpettit.best.vwh.net/family/grisso8g.pdf On my mother's side I also have multiple lines from Grisso, Ohmart, Zug/Zook, and Philhower. Teri Pettit http://tpettit.best.vwh.net/ On 3/24/08 2:00 PM, "Joyce Underwood" <groovygrammy@insightbb.com> wrote: > I have a lady who is my 5th great grandmother 4 different ways due to > marriages. I have yet to figure out how my father and I are related besides > father and daughter. > Blessings, > Joyce > > (Frantz cousin marriages were common in my ancestry. For example, my mother > had three different lines going back to her third-great-grandparents, Daniel > Frantz of Cocalico and Anna Garst of Little Swatara. I don't know exactly > how many ways my mom was her own fourth-cousin.) > message

Tossing in my 2 cents worth here - Could it have been the 1st marriage was the catalyst for the others? Let's say Ann and Mark meet at a Love Fest and then marry. Letters home, from Ann, would then no doubt describe the personalities of the others in the home, causing a desire to meet. Let's then say that Ann and Mark wish to build a home, and Ann's family comes to help build, meeting Mark's family. Friendships, attractions and bonds are made. Other letters are exchanged by Ann to her family with a line or two that reads, "Rebecca, Jacob finds your sense of humor attractive, or Johann, Mary was very impressed with your strength.." There next comes another Love Fest, another marriage and down the line. It is not inconceivable that these matches came about through letters home and the functions of marriages and funerals as well as the church's Love Fest. A bad crop at one end of the county could have led to others in the church helping that family in other ways or helping them to build a home, barn, maybe purchase cattle or seed. Just because you are separated by a great distance then, didn't mean there wasn't communication of some sort. Was there some sort of cattle auction there that all farmers attended to acquire stock? How about the once a month or season trek to a main town to gather supplies that couldn't be home grown, (coffee, sugar, cloth, oil for lanterns, fat or wax for candles). There is always family gossip at these times. Then there is always word of mouth. One neighbor dies and his funeral is attended. One of the mourners writes a letter home and the information is passed to others. This could have been the same with letting eligible men and women know who was available for marriage. Blessings Janet

"Dwayne Wrightsman wrote: > I agree with many of the theories proposed. It doesn't seem that unusual to me as in developing a tree over the last 40 yrs I have encountered dozens is not hundreds of multiple members of a famiy with another family - most of them are only 2 or three but I have some fours. Let me posit another theory - that sometimes relationships developed because of the relative social standings of families relative to each other vs many of the rest of what were frequently transient commumities and somewhat incompetent and dis-satisfied farmers. As well as going to church perhaps they had other contacts, - - thru politics, shopping, sharing projects or work, etc.. Wayne Lucore

My ancestors three of one family married three of another family and the explaniton was in those days people seldom seen anyone except at church. They didn't travel like we do to day. The two families lived close together and they knew no one except at church. In my case they lived in Snake Spring , Bedfor Co Pa, one family lived in the valley the other family lived in the mountain and all attended the same church. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: <KTompk7744@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:47 AM Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > Well, these two families obviously met over and over at all those > Garst-Frantz weddings, > > Happy Monday. > > Jan > > > > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know nothing, alas, about either family. However, I'd be trying to check out possible relationships between the mothers. Might one of those women be somebody's sister? Cousin? Aunt? Might one of the younger generation be the link? Maybe one fellow bought a pig from the other guy's neighbor. Maybe you'll never know........ Happy hunting. Jan **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

let me throw another mix into these theroies. Maybe they had friends in common who introduced them. For example, Many of my Royer family ancestors lived in Lancastor Co. and attended meetings in the home of Hannas (John) Royer in 1790. This was the site of the annual meeting of the COB in 1820. This meeting house was built to accomodate overnight members when the weather was too bad to return home. It had large cabinets to hold belongings and very large doors hinged to open up to one large meeting room. By at least 1820, there were Royer relatives of John's living in Lebanon Co. as Maria Martin Royer (1787-1820) died there and is buried in the Tulpehochen Cemetery adjacent to what was known as Royer's Meeting House. John is the son of Emig, a first generation Brethren convert whose father was of the Reformed Church. He likely had other siblings who remained with that faith. There is also evidence that the Royer's had ties to the Michael Frantz family. It does not seem a stretch to imagine that friendships and marriages came about because of these common bonds and situations. Jan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doris Sink" <onalee19@sbcglobal.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > My ancestors three of one family married three of another family and the > explaniton was in those > days people seldom seen anyone except at church. They didn't travel like > we > do to day. The > two families lived close together and they knew no one except at church. > In > my case they lived in > Snake Spring , Bedfor Co Pa, one family lived in the valley the other > family > lived in the > mountain and all attended the same church. > Peggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <KTompk7744@aol.com> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:47 AM > Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > > >> Well, these two families obviously met over and over at all those >> Garst-Frantz weddings, >> >> Happy Monday. >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL >> Home. >> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) >> >> ------------------------ >> Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN >> ------------------------ >> Support Our Sponsoring Agency >> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >> For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com >> ------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1340 - Release Date: 3/23/2008 > 6:50 PM > >

Jan, Great point. The five marriages were indeed sequential, the first one (between Christian Frantz of Cocalico and Mary Garst of Little Swatara) was in 1782 or 1783, and the second one (between Daniel Frantz and Anna Garst) on July 25, 1784. The marriages between David Frantz and Elizabeth Garst, Peter Frantz and Catharine Garst, and Jacob Garst and Christina Frantz, came later. Do you think that the first marriage had to do with the "love feast" conjecture or with the possibility that they all may have been second cousins? One thing is sure, the families lived in distant corners of the Conestoga Congregation territory. And a Happy Monday to you too. Dwayne ----- Original Message ----- From: <KTompk7744@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:47 AM Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > Well, these two families obviously met over and over at all those > Garst-Frantz weddings, > > Happy Monday. > > Jan

Well, these two families obviously met over and over at all those Garst-Frantz weddings, Happy Monday. Jan **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

They probably all met at Grandmas.... Dwayne Wrightsman wrote: > Jan, > > Great point. The five marriages were indeed sequential, the first one > (between Christian Frantz of Cocalico and Mary Garst of Little Swatara) was > in 1782 or 1783, and the second one (between Daniel Frantz and Anna Garst) > on July 25, 1784. The marriages between David Frantz and Elizabeth Garst, > Peter Frantz and Catharine Garst, and Jacob Garst and Christina Frantz, came > later. Do you think that the first marriage had to do with the "love feast" > conjecture or with the possibility that they all may have been second > cousins? One thing is sure, the families lived in distant corners of the > Conestoga Congregation territory. > > And a Happy Monday to you too. > > Dwayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <KTompk7744@aol.com> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:47 AM > Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > > > >> Well, these two families obviously met over and over at all those >> Garst-Frantz weddings, >> >> Happy Monday. >> >> Jan >> > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~ "Proponents of each side are vying with determination to prove their ignorance is greater than the other." President Andrew Jackson, discussing a bill going through the US Congress. Visit http://ibssg.org/ For The Blacksheep website, Montgomery County, Putnam County, and Fountain County USGenWeb sites. MORE... Putnam County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ibssg.org/putnam/bios/ Montgomery County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ibssg.org/montgomery/bios/ Fountain County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ibssg.org/fountain/vitals/bios/

Mary Ann, The families involved in the Frantz-Garst five-marriages situation did not come over at the same time on the same ships. The Garsts were not Anabaptists. They were reformed. The families did not live in the same counties. They did not belong to the same church congregations. The "connections" that you mention do not apply in this case. But thanks for trying. Dwayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Ann Rhodes" <milrho@bellsouth.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > Dwayne. > When the Anabaptist fled Europe, they went to Rotterdam, were they were > housed by fellow Anabaptist until they could book passage on a ship. On > these long voyages by sea, they surly did get to know each other. Their > common bound would have been their beliefs. Mine were originally Amish and > Mennonite and in this country joined the "Tunkers or Dunkers.", becoming > Brethren who lived in congregations with each other. > Mary Ann R. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <dwayne55@comcast.net> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:09 PM > Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > > >> But wouldn't the families have to known each other? Wouldn't they have >> to >> share some common element of community or blood or something? Didn't >> most >> families who married families have prior connections? It is "connection" >> that I'm looking for to explain the Frantz-Garst marriages. >> >> > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dwayne. When the Anabaptist fled Europe, they went to Rotterdam, were they were housed by fellow Anabaptist until they could book passage on a ship. On these long voyages by sea, they surly did get to know each other. Their common bound would have been their beliefs. Mine were originally Amish and Mennonite and in this country joined the "Tunkers or Dunkers.", becoming Brethren who lived in congregations with each other. Mary Ann R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <dwayne55@comcast.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > But wouldn't the families have to known each other? Wouldn't they have to > share some common element of community or blood or something? Didn't most > families who married families have prior connections? It is "connection" > that I'm looking for to explain the Frantz-Garst marriages. > >

But wouldn't the families have to known each other? Wouldn't they have to share some common element of community or blood or something? Didn't most families who married families have prior connections? It is "connection" that I'm looking for to explain the Frantz-Garst marriages. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Ann Rhodes" <milrho@bellsouth.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > This may be my simple mind but; > I thought that as Brethren married Brethren or other Anabaptist, > and on the far west of PA settlements were on 150 to 400 acres in the late > 1700's to 1800's, > courting had to be difficult as most families had only one wagon and a > couple of horses. > They normally walked to the meeting houses. > Their homes were on farms, not lots with roads. > Seemed normal for families to marry families. > > Mary Ann R, > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Von Gunten" <stevevg@buckeye-express.com> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:58 PM > Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > > >> In cases when multiply marriages take place with two distinct families, >> the >> normal reason has been discovered that these were planned marriages by >> the >> parents of these two families. This common in the 1700's and into the >> 1900's.as well. >> >> SP. Von Gunten >> Toledo, OH >> stevevg@buckeye-express.com > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Merle, Thank you! The Encyclopedia has been priceless to me. It has taken me to places I had never heard of. Never would I have found the thousands of ancestors without it. I have spent many hours ordering and reading the books, etc. it references to. It took a few years to connect all of those Forney's in Volume 3, but I finally did it. When I looked at my e-mail, what a perfect word for those three volumes; Detective!!! Mary Ann Rhodes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <cliff@rtkonline.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:09 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Renner and the BE > >> Now, if I can find where the BE got it's information...hehe.. > > I wrote several of the articles for the Brethren Encyclopedia - in none > of them did I give sources for my information, I was asked (or in a > couple of the instances -volunteered - and they used them) to summarized > what I had done on these churches/individuals/families. Yes, what I > wrote was based on my research - but for too much of the materials they > were not directly source documents. > > My use of the Brethren Encyclopedia is that it is a directive to where > to look for information. > > Merle C Rummel > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1336 - Release Date: 3/20/2008 > 9:48 AM > >

This may be my simple mind but; I thought that as Brethren married Brethren or other Anabaptist, and on the far west of PA settlements were on 150 to 400 acres in the late 1700's to 1800's, courting had to be difficult as most families had only one wagon and a couple of horses. They normally walked to the meeting houses. Their homes were on farms, not lots with roads. Seemed normal for families to marry families. Mary Ann R, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Von Gunten" <stevevg@buckeye-express.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > In cases when multiply marriages take place with two distinct families, > the > normal reason has been discovered that these were planned marriages by the > parents of these two families. This common in the 1700's and into the > 1900's.as well. > > SP. Von Gunten > Toledo, OH > stevevg@buckeye-express.com

Short answer: No. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jeff@ibssg.org> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > Was there a central school that the kids would have attended? A central > place to get supplies? A "New" congregation that opened between the > various families?

Okay, maybe they didn't exactly fall in love, but that still begs the question. Let's assume that the marriages were "arranged" as you suggest. How and why would John Nicholas Garst of Lebanon County and Michael Frantz II of Lancaster County arrange these five marriages if there was no connection (neighbors, blood relations, etc.) between the two families? Do you think that the marriages were arranged at a Brethren love feast attended by the parents? My own grandmother and grandfather met at Annual Meeting and were married at the next, but their marriage in the 1800s was not arranged. They were in love. But neither had siblings that joined in. My query has to do with five marriages between two distant families. That's a lot! Dwayne Wrightsman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Von Gunten" <stevevg@buckeye-express.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > In cases when multiply marriages take place with two distinct families, > the > normal reason has been discovered that these were planned marriages by the > parents of these two families. This common in the 1700's and into the > 1900's.as well. > > SP. Von Gunten > Toledo, OH > stevevg@buckeye-express.com

In cases when multiply marriages take place with two distinct families, the normal reason has been discovered that these were planned marriages by the parents of these two families. This common in the 1700's and into the 1900's.as well. SP. Von Gunten Toledo, OH stevevg@buckeye-express.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <dwayne55@comcast.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > > Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages: > > Five children of Michael Frantz II (b.1725), son of early Conestoga > Brethren > elder, Michael Frantz I, married five children of John Nicholas Garst, son > of devout Reformed Church member, Theobald Gerst. John Nicholas Garst's > children were not baptized Reformed as John Nicholas was an early member > of > the Little Swatara Brethren in the Bethel-Tulpehocken area of northern > Lancaster County. John Nicholas Garst (b.1727) was the only one of his > siblings to leave the Reformed faith for the Brethren faith, suggesting > that > he may have married into a Brethren family after settling in Bethel > Township > about 1750. This Bethel Township is now located in Lebanon County, > Pennsylvania, next to the Bethel Township in Berks County. > > Michael Frantz II settled in Cocalico Township in Lancaster County and was > an early member in the Cocalico Society of the Conestoga Brethren > Congregation. Four of his sons and his only daughter married four of the > daughters and one of the sons of John Nicholas Garst. It is not common > for > five siblings from one family to marry five siblings from another family, > especially is they did not live close by when they were growing up. > Bethel > Township, Lebanon County, was not very close to Cocalico Township, > Lancaster > County. One wonders how it was possible that these Frantz-Garst marriages > happened. > > One possible explanation is that the Frantz siblings of Cocalico and the > Garst siblings of Little Swatara may have met at "love feasts." Both > Cocalico and Little Swatara were preaching points in the Conestoga > Congregation which covered an area that included Lancaster, Dauphin, > Lebanon, Berks, and one other county whose name I forget. Both families > were Brethren and would have had opportunities to participate in love > feasts > held by the entire (and very large) congregation. > > Another possible explanation is that the Frantz siblings and the Garst > siblings were blood related. Although there were no relatives of John > Nicholas Garst living in the Cocalico Creek area, there were a number of > first cousins of Michael Frantz II living in the Little Swatara Creek > area. > Michael Frantz (b.1726) of Bethel Township was a first cousin of Michael > Frantz II (b.1725), and he lived on Little Swatara Creek just two farms > upstream from John Nicholas Garst. Michael Frantz of Little Swatara Creek > had a younger sister, Elizabeth Frantz (b.1729), who was two years younger > than John Nicholas Garst. She would have been a prime candidate to have > been married to John Nicholas Garst. She could have been the reason why > John Nicholas Garst became Brethren. She would have been a first-cousin > blood link to Michael Frantz II of Cocalico, so that the children of both > families would have known one another as second cousins as well as being > Brethren. Could it be that five children of John Nicholas Garst married > five children of Michael Frantz II simply because they fell in love with > their second cousins? > > Choosing between the two explanations above, which one makes the most > sense? > If neither, what other possible explanations could there be? > > Please put on your thinking caps. > > Dwayne Wrightsman > Lee, NH > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages: Five children of Michael Frantz II (b.1725), son of early Conestoga Brethren elder, Michael Frantz I, married five children of John Nicholas Garst, son of devout Reformed Church member, Theobald Gerst. John Nicholas Garst's children were not baptized Reformed as John Nicholas was an early member of the Little Swatara Brethren in the Bethel-Tulpehocken area of northern Lancaster County. John Nicholas Garst (b.1727) was the only one of his siblings to leave the Reformed faith for the Brethren faith, suggesting that he may have married into a Brethren family after settling in Bethel Township about 1750. This Bethel Township is now located in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, next to the Bethel Township in Berks County. Michael Frantz II settled in Cocalico Township in Lancaster County and was an early member in the Cocalico Society of the Conestoga Brethren Congregation. Four of his sons and his only daughter married four of the daughters and one of the sons of John Nicholas Garst. It is not common for five siblings from one family to marry five siblings from another family, especially is they did not live close by when they were growing up. Bethel Township, Lebanon County, was not very close to Cocalico Township, Lancaster County. One wonders how it was possible that these Frantz-Garst marriages happened. One possible explanation is that the Frantz siblings of Cocalico and the Garst siblings of Little Swatara may have met at "love feasts." Both Cocalico and Little Swatara were preaching points in the Conestoga Congregation which covered an area that included Lancaster, Dauphin, Lebanon, Berks, and one other county whose name I forget. Both families were Brethren and would have had opportunities to participate in love feasts held by the entire (and very large) congregation. Another possible explanation is that the Frantz siblings and the Garst siblings were blood related. Although there were no relatives of John Nicholas Garst living in the Cocalico Creek area, there were a number of first cousins of Michael Frantz II living in the Little Swatara Creek area. Michael Frantz (b.1726) of Bethel Township was a first cousin of Michael Frantz II (b.1725), and he lived on Little Swatara Creek just two farms upstream from John Nicholas Garst. Michael Frantz of Little Swatara Creek had a younger sister, Elizabeth Frantz (b.1729), who was two years younger than John Nicholas Garst. She would have been a prime candidate to have been married to John Nicholas Garst. She could have been the reason why John Nicholas Garst became Brethren. She would have been a first-cousin blood link to Michael Frantz II of Cocalico, so that the children of both families would have known one another as second cousins as well as being Brethren. Could it be that five children of John Nicholas Garst married five children of Michael Frantz II simply because they fell in love with their second cousins? Choosing between the two explanations above, which one makes the most sense? If neither, what other possible explanations could there be? Please put on your thinking caps. Dwayne Wrightsman Lee, NH

Was there a central school that the kids would have attended? A central place to get supplies? A "New" congregation that opened between the various families? Jeff Dwayne Wrightsman wrote: > Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages: > > Five children of Michael Frantz II (b.1725), son of early Conestoga Brethren > elder, Michael Frantz I, married five children of John Nicholas Garst, son > of devout Reformed Church member, Theobald Gerst. John Nicholas Garst's > children were not baptized Reformed as John Nicholas was an early member of > the Little Swatara Brethren in the Bethel-Tulpehocken area of northern > Lancaster County. John Nicholas Garst (b.1727) was the only one of his > siblings to leave the Reformed faith for the Brethren faith, suggesting that > he may have married into a Brethren family after settling in Bethel Township > about 1750. This Bethel Township is now located in Lebanon County, > Pennsylvania, next to the Bethel Township in Berks County. > > Michael Frantz II settled in Cocalico Township in Lancaster County and was > an early member in the Cocalico Society of the Conestoga Brethren > Congregation. Four of his sons and his only daughter married four of the > daughters and one of the sons of John Nicholas Garst. It is not common for > five siblings from one family to marry five siblings from another family, > especially is they did not live close by when they were growing up. Bethel > Township, Lebanon County, was not very close to Cocalico Township, Lancaster > County. One wonders how it was possible that these Frantz-Garst marriages > happened. > > One possible explanation is that the Frantz siblings of Cocalico and the > Garst siblings of Little Swatara may have met at "love feasts." Both > Cocalico and Little Swatara were preaching points in the Conestoga > Congregation which covered an area that included Lancaster, Dauphin, > Lebanon, Berks, and one other county whose name I forget. Both families > were Brethren and would have had opportunities to participate in love feasts > held by the entire (and very large) congregation. > > Another possible explanation is that the Frantz siblings and the Garst > siblings were blood related. Although there were no relatives of John > Nicholas Garst living in the Cocalico Creek area, there were a number of > first cousins of Michael Frantz II living in the Little Swatara Creek area. > Michael Frantz (b.1726) of Bethel Township was a first cousin of Michael > Frantz II (b.1725), and he lived on Little Swatara Creek just two farms > upstream from John Nicholas Garst. Michael Frantz of Little Swatara Creek > had a younger sister, Elizabeth Frantz (b.1729), who was two years younger > than John Nicholas Garst. She would have been a prime candidate to have > been married to John Nicholas Garst. She could have been the reason why > John Nicholas Garst became Brethren. She would have been a first-cousin > blood link to Michael Frantz II of Cocalico, so that the children of both > families would have known one another as second cousins as well as being > Brethren. Could it be that five children of John Nicholas Garst married > five children of Michael Frantz II simply because they fell in love with > their second cousins? > > Choosing between the two explanations above, which one makes the most sense? > If neither, what other possible explanations could there be? > > Please put on your thinking caps. > > Dwayne Wrightsman > Lee, NH > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~ "Proponents of each side are vying with determination to prove their ignorance is greater than the other." President Andrew Jackson, discussing a bill going through the US Congress. Visit http://ibssg.org/ For The Blacksheep website, Montgomery County, Putnam County, and Fountain County USGenWeb sites. MORE... Putnam County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ibssg.org/putnam/bios/ Montgomery County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ibssg.org/montgomery/bios/ Fountain County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ibssg.org/fountain/vitals/bios/