O.K. This is starting to make a little more sense. Unfortunately I have not seen Maria Engle's last book, it was being mailed to my library, but the post office has lost it. Oh, well. Anyway. It is starting to look like a Jacob Rhoads from Frederick Co, MD, did marry a Rebecca Gilbert, but I doubt that Jacob was the son of Henry Rhoads and Catharina. I suspect he may have been a son of the other Henry Rhodes you've discussed before. The Jacob, living in Brothers Valley, married Rebecca Boyer, and he died in 1790 and appears to have had few surviving children, one of them being Abraham Rhoads, 1777-1866, who is buried in Wills Lutheran Church Cemetery, Somerset Twp, Somerset Co, PA (WPA transcript). Presumably it is his wife Susanna Wingard, 1788-1857, who is buried beside him. In the 1790 census for Bedford Co, PA, Rebecca Roads, household was recorded with 0-1-2. The male under 16, would be the Abraham mentioned in the Orphans Court record. A quick chronology for Jacob of Henry, Brothers Valley Twp: 1771 Jul 16, Bedford Co, PA, Court of Quarter Sessions, Docket 1. The King vs. Joseph Kelly. And now a jury to wit: John Miller, John Spurgeon, Samuel Moore, John Dodrige, Joseph Morrison, Robert Bradshaw, John Fleeharty, Peter Smith, Michael Huff, Jacob Rhoads, William Parker, and John Peters, upon their oaths do say that the said Joseph Kelly is not guilty of the felony whereof he stands indicated. 1771 Jul Term, Bedford Co, PA, Civil Court Docket. Jury selected for Oct. Term 1772: Henry Rhoads, Sr., Jacob Rhoads, Ezekiel Worley, William Sparks, John Miller, David Rynard, George Sills, James Wells, Richard Wells, Sr., Richard Wells, Jr., Charles Cessna and James Piper. 1771 Jul Term, Bedford Co, PA, Civil Court Docket. John Sherry vs. Jacob Roads, case #5, summons case. 7 Jan 1772. Referred to William McConnel, Esq., Abraham Keble, Esq. and Joseph Morrison. Find for plaintiff. 1773 Brothers Valley Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Tax List: Gabriel Rhoads, 200 acres, 10 cleared, Tax 3.9. Henry Rhoads, Jr, 400 acres, 10 cleared, Tax 2.9. Henry Rhoads, Sr., 200 acres, 21 acres cleared, Tax 5.9. Jacob Rhoads, 100 acres, 5 acres cleared, Tax 3.6. John Rhoads, 100 acres, 1 acre cleared, Tax 2.0. Single Freemen - no Rhoads (so the above are all married) (PAA 3:22:13; "The Somerset County Outline", Scottdale, PA: Mennonite Pub. House, 1932. p125) 1773 Dec 13, Bedford Co, PA, survey warrant no.30 to Jacob Roads, 200 acres in Brothersvalley Twp. 1774 May, survey (C163-243) for Jacob Rhoads, the "Buffalo Lick," tract containing 290 acres, situated on the forks of the Chestnut Ridge and Allegany Creek branches of the little Youghiogeni, adjoining Stony Ridge, Daniel Loutt, Michael Droyer, Phillip Byar. 1774 Nov 3, patent (AA14-746) by Henry Rhoads. (PA Arch., Land Office). Brothersvalley Twp Warrantee Map, Jacob Rhoads. Location is just west of Berlin Boro, and the warrantee map shows the land in the forks of Buffalo Run Creek and the North Branch of Buffalo Run Creek. 1774 Brothersvalley Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Tax List: Henry Rhoads, Sen'r, estate, Tax £4.7. Henry Rhoads, Jun'r, Tax £3.8. Jacob Rhoads, Tax £3.2. (PAA 3:22:78) Somerset Co, PA, Warrantee Map, Stoneycreek Twp, Jacob Rhoads lot. 1930. 236 acres, warr. 18 May 1775; surv. 18 May 1775. -- not found in PA Arch., Land Office Warrant Register (ser. 17.88). Location, just east of Shanksville Boro, adjacent to John Rhoads. "Muster Rolls and Papers Relating To The Associators and Militia of The County of Bedford" Captain Paxton's Company. (no date, ca. 1778-83). 2nd Class; John Swisher (sick). 3rd Class; Joseph Rhoads; Jacob Rhoads (sick). 5th Class; Fredrick Sever. 9th Class; Dan'l Rhoads. (PA Arch., Ser.5, Vol.5, pp116-7) 1st Bn Bedford Co, 4th Co, Captain Samuel Paxton (Ranging). Beginning and including all the inhabitants in Cumberland Valley Twp, on west side of Wills Creek Mountain (PA Arch., Ser.5, Vol.5, p83). 1779 Quemahoning Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Tax: Jacob Rhoads, 150 acres, 0 horses, 0 cattle, 0 sheep. -- so a land holder, but apparently not living here. (Listed together with John, Jacob and Joseph Rhoads - list is not alphabetized). (PA Arch., Ser.3, Vol.22, p197) 1780 Cumberland Valley Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Tax List (not in PA Archives). 1783 Cumberland Valley Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Federal Supply Tax: Jacob Rhoads, 100 acres, 2 horses, 2 cattle, 0 sheep, Tax 1.12.8. Joseph Rhoads, 40 acres, 2 horses, 2 cattle, 4 sheep, Tax 1.3.6. (PA Arch., Ser.3, Vol.22, p264) 1784 Cumberland Valley Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Return of Land and Inhabitants: Jacob Rhoads, 0 acres, 1 dwelling, 6 whites, 0 blacks. Joseph Rhoads, 0 acres, 1 dwelling, 3 whites, 0 blacks. John Switzer, 0 acres, 1 dwellings, 2 whites, 0 blacks. Frederick Sever, 0 acres, 1 dwelling, 8 whites, 0 blacks. (PA Arch., Ser.3, Vol.22, p322). 1786 Apr 3, Bedford Co, PA, warrant no.168, to Jacob Rhoads for 80 acres in Londonderry Twp. 1793 Apr 29, survey (C195-221) for Jacob Rhoads, 130 acres, located on the waters of Gladins Run in Londonderry Twp adjoining Joseph Boyer, William (Maitz?), Andw Emmerick and Peter Buzzard, including his improvement in Londonberry Twp. Price: £10 per 100 acres, with interest to commence from 01 Mar 1783. Patent (H73-385) 1876 to Jonathan Emerick. (Early Land Applications, Warrant Book II, p277, Bedford Co, PA; PA Arch. 17.88) -- apparently surveyed for Jacob's widow. Peter Buzzard was administrator on the estate of Jacob. 1790, Jacob's place of death was Londonderry, based on census, and neighbor, Peter Nemire. 1790 Jun 21, Bedford Co, PA. Letters of Administration issued to Peter Buzzard on estate of Jacob Rhoads. His widow was Rebecca Rhoads. Bonds: Sol Lunn and Felix Mellin. 1792 Aug 30, Bedford Co, PA, Orphans Court, George Woods, James Martin and Hugh Barclay, Esquires. Came into court Peter Buzzard, administrator of Jacob Rhoad, deceased, and reported a balance in his hands which is approved by the court. 1793 Dec 17, Bedford Co, PA, Orphans Court. Came into court Abraham Road, grandson of Michael Boyer, above the age of 14 years and chose the said Michael Boyers as his guardian. Glen Swartz ----------------------- 3/24/2008 9:45:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, UrAhne1@aol.com (Marcy Isenhart) writes: 7. Jacob Rhoads married Rebecca Gilbert daughter of Thomas Gilbert of Frederick Co. Maryland. This information can be found in Equity Bk.1, p164, Frederick Co., Md.. Thomas Gilbert's will is in Bk GM3, p20. Frederick Co. Md. Marie and I do not agree on her assessment of Abraham Rhoads of Jacob. I have found a court record at the archives in Annapolis of a request for administration papers for the estate of Abraham Rhoads, deceased 1830, filed by Zipporah Gilbert and her son Isaac. There is also a record granting these papers. Zipporah was the wife of Rebecca's brother Jeremiah. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

the Rev Mr Johann Waldschmidt was a Reformed minister in churches at Cocalico, Reyers, Muddy Creek,and Zeltenreich (1752-1786). He was a Pietist. His son, Christian Waldschmidt, married Catherine Bolender, sister of the Brethren minister, Stephen Bolender, and as far as we can determine, a Brethren. This family moved north up the Susquehannah River and Penns Creek, to Penn and Brush Valleys (Center Co PA now) - as part of a Brethren community. The families they connect with were some from the Tulpehocken, and Swatara, as well as the Cocalico. These families came to Clermont Co OH about 1800. What I am saying is: that many Reformed were Pietists, and their preachers were - and had Brethren connections - this type of thing might be a consideration for why the families intermarried. I might add - my aunt was the youngest of 6 children - and the other 5 all married brothers and sisters - she refused to marry the youngest brother of the other family - and this was about 1930. As I understand - the eldest got married, and the next younger fell in love next - and then the family associations brought a sequence of connections. Merle C Rummel > The families involved in the Frantz-Garst five-marriages situation did not > come over at the same time on the same ships. The Garsts were not > Anabaptists. They were reformed. The families did not live in the same > counties. They did not belong to the same church congregations. The > "connections" that you mention do not apply in this case. But thanks for > trying. >

Hi all, I know that the book "The History of the Church of the Brethren in the Middle District of Pennsylvania" is scheduled to be re-published in the next year or so, and I plan on purchasing a copy, but I'm wondering if I should pick up Kaylor's "Out of the Wilderness". Does it have any additional information? I'm particularly interested in the Clover Creek congregation. Thanks, Ken _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008

Marcy is replying to an email I sent. Date: 3/21/2008 3:21:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time Subject: Henry Rhoads, ca. 1712-1774 - update Where I wrote: 7. Jacob Rhoads, b. abt. 1750, Frederick Co, MD; d. 1790, Londonderry Twp, Bedford Co, PA; m. abt. 1776 Rebecca Boyer, Bedford Co, PA; b. 31 Jan 1757, Frederick Co, MD, d/o Michael Boyer; d. 29 Aug 1805, PA. I believe Jacob married Rebecca Boyer based on court records for Jacob: 1793 Dec 17, Bedford Co, PA, Orphans Court. "Came into court Abraham Road, grandson of Michael Boyer, above the age of 14 years and chose the said Michael Boyers as his guardian." Since Jacob is the son of Henry Rhoads, Michael Boyer must be the father of Rebecca married to Jacob Rhoads. In 1771 Jacob Rhoads was living in Brothers Valley Twp, and a survey (C163-243) in 1774 shows Jacob living next to Michael Boyer (Droyer). Since Rhoads and Boyer were next door neighbors, it would seem to make more sense for him to marry a woman living beside him, rather than a woman from Frederick Co, MD. And in the 1790 census Rebecka is living next door to Joseph Boyer (possible son of Michael). A similar conclusion was reached by Alvin L. Rhods, and mentioned on p6, in "Genealogies of Rhoads-Scott and Related Families," Decorah, IA: Anundsen Pub Co, 1987. [8] Jacob Rhoads, b. abt. 1750, d. abt. 1790, m. 1776 to Rebecca Boyer. Marcy, would you kindly proved further details on the Equity Bk.1, p164 and the will of Thomas Gilbert. I have not seen those documents, so can't comment on them. Glen Swartz -------------------------------------- 3/24/2008 9:45:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, UrAhne1@aol.com (Marcy Isenhart) writes: 7. Jacob Rhoads married Rebecca Gilbert daughter of Thomas Gilbert of Frederick Co. Maryland. This information can be found in Equity Bk.1, p164, Frederick Co., Md.. Thomas Gilbert's will is in Bk GM3, p20. Frederick Co. Md. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Re: Frederick Sever/Sipe Just for the record, the 1790 Bedford County census has a Peter Sipe and a Frederick Sever. This of course is from a transcripted listing. Both have known Somerset County names around them in the listing (which isn't categorized by township). The Sipe name is listed closer to the Rhoads name than Sever is for what that is worth. A 1776 tax transcript for Brothersvalley Township has a Frederick Sape. The 1774 tax transcript has a Frederick Sciof, listed next to Charles Scripes. The 1772 tax list has a Frederick Sheaf. These are most likely the same Frederick. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of GlSwartz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:56 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Henry Roth/Rhoads This is a reply to an email from me, dated: 3/25/2008 2:14:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time subj: Re: [BRE] Henry Roth/Rhoads-re update. - Severs Thank you, Marcy. And yet, "Another document was attached to the above Will of Henry Rhoads, Date of Will January 28, 1774. This document is 'LEGACIES and NAMES' and is the record of the settlement of the estate giving the date, the name and the amount received by each: ... June 10, 1776 Frederick Severs 51 pounds 15 shillings 6 pence... " So now we have two different documents, recorded at different times for the same event. One is a receipt by a "Frederick Severs," for exactly 51 pounds from the estate of Henry. The another, an accounting of the estate of Henry Roth, where a "Frederick Sife", received exactly 51 pounds. The only way I can reconcile the two documents is to "assume," this is the same man, and consider the receipt to probably be the "correct," spelling. I guess you could argue there are in fact two different Fredericks, each married to Catherine, each receiving the same amount from Henry's estate, if we assume the receipts failed to record a payment to Frederick Sife and the final account failed record a payment to Frederick Severs. Of course this raises problems with the tax and militia rosters I can't explain So, while I can't prove with 100% certainty that Frederick Severs and Frederick Sife are the same person, I believe the evidence supports my conclusion, and assumption that the different spellings are simply variations on the same last name. I have another line that is far, far worse in its variations, where Boyer is found as Dreyer, Droyer, Fryer, Tryar, Tryer. I'm still not positive what would be called the correct spelling, as I haven't found any documents signed by him. Glen Swartz ------------------------- 3/25/2008 12:43:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, UrAhne1@aol.com writes: Marcy does not mean the quit claim deed. I have in front of me a copy of the "Account of Michael Sell and Abraham Cable Executors of the Last Will and Testament of Henry Rhoads late of the Township of Brothers Valley in the County of Bedford Yeoman. Deceased a will of all and singular the Goods & Chattles Herewith of the said Deceased come to the Hands of the Accountants as of their Payments & Disbursments of the Same. Item #4. Paid to Frederick Sife married to one of the Testators Daughters (next could be "as of Rect") 51 pounds 15 shillings 3 pence. Exhibited into the Registers Office at Bedford the 8th Day of September 1778 by Michael Sell ) Abaraham Cable) affirmed **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001) ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think this is the most likely explanation for the second through fifth marriages. My sister's second husband was the brother of my brother's second wife, and Patti and Allen first met at Jeff and Desi's wedding. Before they started dating they also occasionally saw each other as in-laws at other events where both our family and Desi's family attended, such as when we were all visiting after the birth of Jeff and Desi's first child. And there was no church or community connection. Jeff, Desi and Allen lived in Farmington, NM, while Patti and the rest of our family lived near Santa Fe, NM. That's nearly a four hour drive. Desi and Allen are Mormons; our family was raised Disciples of Christ. As far as how the first meeting between Christian Frantz and Mary Garst came about, I'm reluctant to speculate. It could be either of the reasons you hypothesize, or something else altogether. We may never know. On 3/24/08 7:09 AM, "Dwayne Wrightsman" <dwayne55@comcast.net> wrote: > Jan, > > Great point. The five marriages were indeed sequential, the first one > (between Christian Frantz of Cocalico and Mary Garst of Little Swatara) was > in 1782 or 1783, and the second one (between Daniel Frantz and Anna Garst) > on July 25, 1784. The marriages between David Frantz and Elizabeth Garst, > Peter Frantz and Catharine Garst, and Jacob Garst and Christina Frantz, came > later. Do you think that the first marriage had to do with the "love feast" > conjecture or with the possibility that they all may have been second > cousins? One thing is sure, the families lived in distant corners of the > Conestoga Congregation territory. > > And a Happy Monday to you too. > > Dwayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <KTompk7744@aol.com> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:47 AM > Subject: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > > >> Well, these two families obviously met over and over at all those >> Garst-Frantz weddings, >> >> Happy Monday. >> >> Jan

This is a reply to an email from me, dated: 3/25/2008 2:14:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time subj: Re: [BRE] Henry Roth/Rhoads-re update. - Severs Thank you, Marcy. And yet, "Another document was attached to the above Will of Henry Rhoads, Date of Will January 28, 1774. This document is 'LEGACIES and NAMES' and is the record of the settlement of the estate giving the date, the name and the amount received by each: ... June 10, 1776 Frederick Severs 51 pounds 15 shillings 6 pence... " So now we have two different documents, recorded at different times for the same event. One is a receipt by a "Frederick Severs," for exactly 51 pounds from the estate of Henry. The another, an accounting of the estate of Henry Roth, where a "Frederick Sife", received exactly 51 pounds. The only way I can reconcile the two documents is to "assume," this is the same man, and consider the receipt to probably be the "correct," spelling. I guess you could argue there are in fact two different Fredericks, each married to Catherine, each receiving the same amount from Henry's estate, if we assume the receipts failed to record a payment to Frederick Sife and the final account failed record a payment to Frederick Severs. Of course this raises problems with the tax and militia rosters I can't explain So, while I can't prove with 100% certainty that Frederick Severs and Frederick Sife are the same person, I believe the evidence supports my conclusion, and assumption that the different spellings are simply variations on the same last name. I have another line that is far, far worse in its variations, where Boyer is found as Dreyer, Droyer, Fryer, Tryar, Tryer. I'm still not positive what would be called the correct spelling, as I haven't found any documents signed by him. Glen Swartz ------------------------- 3/25/2008 12:43:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, UrAhne1@aol.com writes: Marcy does not mean the quit claim deed. I have in front of me a copy of the "Account of Michael Sell and Abraham Cable Executors of the Last Will and Testament of Henry Rhoads late of the Township of Brothers Valley in the County of Bedford Yeoman. Deceased a will of all and singular the Goods & Chattles Herewith of the said Deceased come to the Hands of the Accountants as of their Payments & Disbursments of the Same. Item #4. Paid to Frederick Sife married to one of the Testators Daughters (next could be "as of Rect") 51 pounds 15 shillings 3 pence. Exhibited into the Registers Office at Bedford the 8th Day of September 1778 by Michael Sell ) Abaraham Cable) affirmed **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

I am seeking information of Jonathan Garber b. 9-10-1814 md. Sarah Rife Looking for their b. & d date plus data on the 17 children & their spouses. Thanks, Jim Denlinger **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Marcy does not mean the quit claim deed. I have in front of me a copy of the "Account of Michael Sell and Abraham Cable Executors of the Last Will and Testament of Henry Rhoads late of the Township of Brothers Valley in the County of Bedford Yeoman. Deceased a will of all and singular the Goods & Chattles Herewith of the said Deceased come to the Hands of the Accountants as of their Payments & Disbursments of the Same. Item #4. Paid to Frederick Sife married to one of the Testators Daughters (next could be "as of Rect") 51 pounds 15 shillings 3 pence. Exhibited into the Registers Office at Bedford the 8th Day of September 1778 by Michael Sell ) Abaraham Cable) affirmed Marcy _urahne1@aol.com_ (mailto:urahne1@aol.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

I don't think she could be. The reference to her grandfather marrying again suggests that Janet really meant that her mother is also her stepgrandmother. I haven't figured out how the sister part fits in, but she probably really means either stepsister or sister-in-law. On 3/25/08 5:04 AM, "J. M. Freed" <jmfreed@midohio.net> wrote: > Janet, > > Please explain how your biological mother is also your biological > grandmother and your biological sister as well without any incest > involved. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janet Rogers" <rogers922@intrstar.net> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:19 AM > Subject: Re: [BRE] Multiple Lines > > >> >> If my grandfather had married one more time - it is possible I could >> be my >> own grandmother. At present my mother is my grandmother and my >> sister...and >> it is all perfectly legal - LOL... >> >> Blessings >> Janet

My 4GGPs Jacob FEICK/FIKE & Eve MOYER had SIX of their 11 [known to me] children marry THOMASes. Four of the THOMASes were siblings, and the other two were first cousins of the afore mentioned four. Jacob & Eve actually had TWO sons-in-law named Jacob THOMAS. I don't actually know how far apart these families lived, but I would suspect near to each other, and with population density and transportation being what it was, one came into contact with far fewer people than one does today, and one tends to marry someone they know Thom Flory -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Lucore <welucore@yahoo.com> To: brethren@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages "Dwayne Wrightsman wrote: > I agree with many of the theories proposed. It doesn't seem that unusual to me as in developing a tree over the last 40 yrs I have encountered dozens is not hundreds of multiple members of a famiy with another family - most of them are only 2 or three but I have some fours. Let me posit another theory - that sometimes relationships developed because of the relative social standings of families relative to each other vs many of the rest of what were frequently transient commumities and somewhat incompetent and dis-satisfied farmers. As well as going to church perhaps they had other contacts, - - thru politics, shopping, sharing projects or work, etc.. Wayne Lucore ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Janet, Please explain how your biological mother is also your biological grandmother and your biological sister as well without any incest involved. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Rogers" <rogers922@intrstar.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Multiple Lines > > If my grandfather had married one more time - it is possible I could > be my > own grandmother. At present my mother is my grandmother and my > sister...and > it is all perfectly legal - LOL... > > Blessings > Janet

In case you haven't heard this song, it's pretty fun. Here are the lyrics to "I'm my own grandpa": http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/I2MMYOWN.HTM -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J. M. Freed Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:04 AM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Multiple Lines Janet, Please explain how your biological mother is also your biological grandmother and your biological sister as well without any incest involved. Jim

If my grandfather had married one more time - it is possible I could be my own grandmother. At present my mother is my grandmother and my sister...and it is all perfectly legal - LOL... Blessings Janet >I have a lady who is my 5th great grandmother 4 different ways due to > marriages. I have yet to figure out how my father and I are related > besides > father and daughter. > Blessings, > Joyce > > (Frantz cousin marriages were common in my ancestry. For example, my > mother > had three different lines going back to her third-great-grandparents, > Daniel > Frantz of Cocalico and Anna Garst of Little Swatara. I don't know exactly > how many ways my mom was her own fourth-cousin.) > message > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.0/1341 - Release Date: 3/24/2008 > 3:03 PM > >

I need to take this a bit at a time. First the easy one. I wrote: 3. Catherine Rhoads, b. abt. 1743, PA; d. abt. 1782, Bedford Co, PA; m. abt. 1770, Bedford Co, PA, to Frederick Severs b. abt. 1740 (bef. 1752), MD; d. 1804, Pond Creek, Muhlenberg Co, KY. 6 children. Frederick Severs, m.(2) ca. 1783-90 unk. 3 children. m.(3) 1796 Catherine Botts, b. 1780 Bedford Co, PA, d. Oct 1898, near Horeb, Muhlenberg Co, KY. No children by this marriage. [note, I have adjusted Catherine's birth date to about 1741] Marcy writes this could not be, because the final report [actually she means a quit claim, deed, dated 24 Feb 1775] on the estate of Henry Roads, spells the name as "Frederick Sipe." Here Marcy provided part of the evidence proving Frederick Sipe and Frederick Sever are the same person if you look at the original documents. The first point is, it's really not important how an Englishman spelled the name of an illiterate, German speaking person. And I don't mean that in any derogatory manner, it is simply a state of fact that needs to be considered. In the quit claim, "Frederick Sipe," signed by mark "Q." If we scroll forward a few years we find the will of "Frederick Sevier," in Muhlenberg Co, KY, who also signed by his mark "Q". That is hardly conclusive, but if spelling is the issue then we look at the document "Legacies and Names," attached to Henry's will, and here we find on June 10, 1776 Frederick Severs, signed for 51 pounds 15 shillings 6 pence. (I don't have a photocopy of the legacies). While that might seem reasonable evidence, I don't believe so. So, I also looked for associations, and there I find: Muster Rolls for the Militia of Bedford Co, Captain Paxton's Company. Joseph Rhoads; Jacob Rhoads; and Fredrick Sever. (PA Arch., Ser.5, Vol.5, pp116-7) Here we have two of Henry's sons, serving along side Frederick Sever. Of course one would ask are there any other records which seem to put Frederick Sever in the same location at the same time, and so I looked at the tax records and I find: 1784 Cumberland Valley Twp, Bedford Co, PA - Return of Land and Inhabitants: Jacob Rhoads, Joseph Rhoads, and Frederick Sever. (PA Arch., Ser.3, Vol.22, p322). Regards, Glen Swartz, P.S. I've posted additional notes and details on the "Internet." ------------------------ 3/24/2008 9:45:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, UrAhne1@aol.com writes: .... 3. Cathareine Rhoads was not the wife of Frederick Sever. The final report on the estate of Henry Rhoads by Abraham Cable (Gebel) and Michael Sells/Sills gives Frederick Sipe as Catharine's husband. Since we disagree on this, it might be well to couch our words with "could be". Marcy Isenhart **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Rev. Cooper tells us of Henry marrying Catharine Reinhardt, daughter of Ulrich Reinhardt. Ulrich Reinhardt came over on the Ship Hope, 26 Aug. 1733, and was 29 years old at the time. Also on the ship was Barbara Reinhardt. According to Elma Henning in her book "The Ulrich Rinehart Family and Descerndants 1704- 1985 published 1986, Barbara was Ulrich's wife, he lived in Chester County, was married 3 times as recorded in the Coventry Church records and had nine sons. Given the age of 29 in 1733 it is doubtful he had a daughter old enough to marry Henry Rhoads and Elma lists none. 1. A bible attributed to Capt. Henry gives his birth as 1739 in PA. 3. Cathareine Rhoads was not the wife of Frederick Sever. The final report on the estate of Henry Rhoads by Abraham Cable (Gebel) and Michael Sells/Sills gives Frederick Sipe as Catharine's husband. Since we disagree on this, it might be well to couch our words with "could be". 7. Jacob Rhoads married Rebecca Gilbert daughter of Thomas Gilbert of Frederick Co. Maryland. This information can be found in Equity Bk. 1, p 164, Frederick Co., Md.. Thomas Gilbert's will is in Bk GM3, p20. Frederick Co. Md. Glenn, you referenced Maria Engle's book on Henry. We corresponded and talked on the phone and she takes me to task in her book for saying that our Jacob Isenhart married Susanna Rhoads, daughter of Daniel. I was incorrect because I accepted information from a relative who does gene. research for a fee. Our Jacob Isenhart married Susanna, daughter of Jacob Rhoads and Rebecca Gilbert. Marie and I do not agree on her assessment of Abraham Rhoads of Jacob. I have found a court record at the archives in Annapolis of a request for administration papers for the estate of Abraham Rhoads, deceased 1830, filed by Zipporah Gilbert and her son Isaac. There is also a record granting these papers. Zipporah was the wife of Rebecca's brother Jeremiah. 9. We gathered quite a bit of information on Daniel Rhoads when we mistakenly believed him to be an ancestor but have passed it on to someone who is. However, Henry Jr and Daniel established Rhoadsville later New Vienna in Ky. He owned land in Muhlenberg Co. and farmed, eventually settling in Greenville Ky. and then moved on to Vigo Co, IN where he owned land. From there he moved to the area around Paris, Ill and is buried in Ogden Cem., Symmes Twp, Edgar Co. Ill., just south of Paris. His estate papers are filed in Paris. Il. Marcy Isenhart _urahne1@aol.com_ (mailto:urahne1@aol.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Jan spoke of interdenominational marriages whose roots are the passage to America, one of which was between a Reformed minister and a Brethren woman. Unless you are talking about the ship Allen of 1729, that Brethren woman would not have been Brethren on the boat. Only a handful of Brethren were Brethren when they immigrated, and that was the Allen and an earlier unknown vessel about a decade earlier. Most Brethren became converted once they were in America. However, your general point is correct, that there were plenty of interdenominational marriages that have connections that begin on the boat to America. There are numerous cases of marriages between Reformed and Mennonite members. Bill Thomas

This has been an interesting discussion. Reminded me of my broken heart when, as a 7 year old, I learned would never be allowed to marry my 12 year old cousin, whom I adored, and still do. Another penny's worth. There seemed to be a dismissal of those of different denominations meeting on the ship crossing the pond. I have several lines from marriages of different denominations early on and often wondered how they could have met. Just within the past month I found on a passenger list, one forbear, who became one of the earliest Reformed ministers and who had married a Brethren woman. I found him at age 21 with his family, and the young lady at age 16 with her family on the same ship's passenger list. Most passengers on the list were escaping the prejudice and horror created by edicts of the latest pogrom by the state religion. My point is; not every passenger on a ship would be of the same denomination. Regards, Jan J. L. Strange, BA, CCHT, RMT Ask me about hypnotherapy or Reiki for pain relief, energy healing, spiritual emergency, past life regression. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

I have a lady who is my 5th great grandmother 4 different ways due to marriages. I have yet to figure out how my father and I are related besides father and daughter. Blessings, Joyce (Frantz cousin marriages were common in my ancestry. For example, my mother had three different lines going back to her third-great-grandparents, Daniel Frantz of Cocalico and Anna Garst of Little Swatara. I don't know exactly how many ways my mom was her own fourth-cousin.) message

Robert, Your response is right on target. I have struggled for about ten years over these five Frantz-Garst marriages involving two families who were neither neighbors nor did they attend the same weekly church meetings. They lived about twenty miles apart, and that was back in the mid-1700s. My intuition tells me that the two families were blood relatives. The father of the Frantz children, Michael Frantz II (b1725) had first cousins who lived on Little Swatara Creek, some twenty miles to the north, where lived the father of the Garst children, John Nicholas Garst (b1727). I suspect that John Nicholas Garst married his Little Swatara neighbor, Elizabeth Frantz (b1729), who was a first cousin of Michael Frantz II of Cocalico, thereby conjoining the Garst family and the Frantz family by marriage and by blood. If I am correct, the five marriages were between second cousins. (Frantz cousin marriages were common in my ancestry. For example, my mother had three different lines going back to her third-great-grandparents, Daniel Frantz of Cocalico and Anna Garst of Little Swatara. I don't know exactly how many ways my mom was her own fourth-cousin.) One more thing: Marriage entries for Johan Nicolaus Gerst and Mary Elizabeth Frantz can be found in IGI family files, films, etc. in Salt Lake City and accessed electronically on FamilySearch. These submissions have not been documented, but they do square with my intuition. Perhaps this is the best I can do. Dwayne Wrightsman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Carpenter" <rcarpenter2@charter.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Explaining the Frantz-Garst Marriages > Dwayne and all, > > I find this discussion to be fascinating and yet very challenging. I am > only offering my penny's worth. > > Dwayne is right. There has to be a reason for this family connection. My > grandfather was a family of 2 brothers marrying 2 sisters. But both > families attended the same church! I have 2 brothers also marrying 2 > sisters in the post Revolutionary era. They were close neighbors and both > ended up in the Lutheran Church. > > In your example so many of the same family marrying so many others is > truly > fascinating. Take away religion, neighbors, and that leaves only a few > options. > > There is the possibility that both had known each other previously, either > in Europe or in early America. Or as someone else has suggested, there > may > be a familial relationship heretofore unknown. > > While religion is taken out of the equation, it may not completely be. So > many of our early pioneers sought religion in so many different ways. In > North Carolina where I have done most of my research, language dictated > many > marriages among religous groups. Also here few Anabaptists were able to > continue their unique religious practices into the 19th Century. I have > noticed some amount of conformity between Anabaptist and Reformed belief > systems. > > What a unique problem. Trying to isolate it without proper documentation > is > going to be very challenging. > > I wish you good luck, > > Robert Carpenter