Hi Thank you for your input on Lawrence and Harmonous Sr. That was one year I have not found for the them. I did find 1782 for most of those you names. I understand there was a will for Harmonous in 1790 but I have not seen it. I get the impression it does not list Lawrence. Looking at dates I assume that if Lawrence is a child of Harmonous it would be with a different spouse then Ann Shobe. The children I find listed to them start with birth dates of 1745-1765 or 1770 (20 yr range) and from what I found Lawrence was born about 1733 (almost a 30 yr range for one woman to have children...possible but how likely). Also if the birth year of 1733 is accurate on Lawrence, Harmonous and wife Ann would have been about 15 yrs of age. Still interesting is some of Harmonous' children went to St Clair, IL and on to Crawford county same as Lawrence's family. This family is one reason I stay on the BRE email list. Every so often some branch of an ancetor pops up. Also I find many of the stories of days gone by of great interest. You are sure on top of your game (research). Best regards, Nancy "Emmert F. Bittinger" <ebitting@bridgewater.edu> wrote: Hello Nance, Herman and Lawrence Shook moved into western Virginia, now Hampshire County, West Virginia sometime around the 1780s purchasing land there. The Hampshire County census for 1788 names the following Shook people there: Harmon Sr., and Jr., Jacob, John, Jonas, Lawrence, Peter, William. Many people from Hampshire Co. moved to Ohio and westward. I am guessing that Hermon, Sr., was the father, but that is only a guess. These land records are at Romney, W. Va. Courthouse and are published in Early Records of Hampshire Co., Virginia (W.Va) by Sage and Jones. Hermanus witnessed the will of James Sears in 1782 (prob the following year), and this suggests perhaps he was the older. Emmert Bittinger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nance" To: Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Shook / Shouck family Frederick Co. Maryland >I am a descendant of Lawrence Shook but by no means an expert on the >family. From all that I have found it is still inconclusive where he was a >son, a relative or just someone with the same last name as Harmonious >(Herman) Shook. Would be pretty coincidental if they are not related to be >living in such close proximity. > I look forward to postings on this family.....Nancy > > Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Can anyone help me with the Shook family of Frederick Co. ( now > Washington Co. ) Maryland. Trying to determine if any of these > descendants ended up in Greene County, Ohio. > Lawrence Shook b. 1733 is said to have been associated with the German > Baptist Brethren. Shook spelling also Schock/Schuck. German Lutheran. > Herman Shook b. ca. 1718 is said to have been of German Lutheran faith. >>From Hardy County Virginia. > Any help on these two families would be greatly appreciated. Trying to > determine a possible connection between the two families. > Thank you, > Rebecca Houdeshell Stephens > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Nance, Herman and Lawrence Shook moved into western Virginia, now Hampshire County, West Virginia sometime around the 1780s purchasing land there. The Hampshire County census for 1788 names the following Shook people there: Harmon Sr., and Jr., Jacob, John, Jonas, Lawrence, Peter, William. Many people from Hampshire Co. moved to Ohio and westward. I am guessing that Hermon, Sr., was the father, but that is only a guess. These land records are at Romney, W. Va. Courthouse and are published in Early Records of Hampshire Co., Virginia (W.Va) by Sage and Jones. Hermanus witnessed the will of James Sears in 1782 (prob the following year), and this suggests perhaps he was the older. Emmert Bittinger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nance" <nance188@yahoo.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Shook / Shouck family Frederick Co. Maryland >I am a descendant of Lawrence Shook but by no means an expert on the >family. From all that I have found it is still inconclusive where he was a >son, a relative or just someone with the same last name as Harmonious >(Herman) Shook. Would be pretty coincidental if they are not related to be >living in such close proximity. > I look forward to postings on this family.....Nancy > > Rebecca Stephens <blhstair1@bright.net> wrote: > Can anyone help me with the Shook family of Frederick Co. ( now > Washington Co. ) Maryland. Trying to determine if any of these > descendants ended up in Greene County, Ohio. > Lawrence Shook b. 1733 is said to have been associated with the German > Baptist Brethren. Shook spelling also Schock/Schuck. German Lutheran. > Herman Shook b. ca. 1718 is said to have been of German Lutheran faith. >>From Hardy County Virginia. > Any help on these two families would be greatly appreciated. Trying to > determine a possible connection between the two families. > Thank you, > Rebecca Houdeshell Stephens > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You are correct. It is still the case in most Southern Baptist Churches today, although children are baptized at any age if they can show an understanding of baptism and faith in their saviour. A lot of the Southern Baptist members have COB roots. -- George and Sherry IN GOD WE TRUST -------------- Original message from "Judy Florian" <cageycat@gmail.com>: -------------- > >From my understanding of 1800s German Baptists, people (children, teens, > adults) attended church services, but were not put on the membership list > until they made the adult choice of baptism. Can someone tell me if I'm > mixed up on this? > > It would explain why so many names within families are missing on the church > roll I researched, and why children do not appear until teenagers or just > before / just after their marriages. I never saw little children on the > List. > > In GB Minutes, Committees did go out to "talk to" Bro somebody to discuss > letting his kids go to dances... or not educating the kids. > > In a First Christian church in the same county, I read Minutes from 1800s > that had people getting baptized several times. That always confused me-- > didn't the first time "take"? > > Judy > > > On 5/26/08, DESloan@aol.com wrote: > > > > In the 1700's and early 1800's when a member was baptized, does this mean > > that this is when they joined the church? Or, does it mean that his is when > > they > > joined this congregation, and may have been a member of the church prior to > > this baptism? > > > > Thanks, > > Dave Sloan > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Just a thought while reading re NASS - I have an ancestor Catherina Neff b. ca 1774 - as the German ff often looks like ss - I have come across spellings of Naess, Naeff, Ness, Neff, so it's not much of a stretch to think Nass could be another version of the name. Have you looked for your Anthony under other spellings? Regards, Jan In a message dated 5/26/2008 1:55:28 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, badrenn@embarqmail.com writes: Dave, When you find it, let me know. I'd be interested in that information, too. Nass also preached in Germany, according to the history in those links..... makes you wonder if he did indeed baptize Anthony, if it wasn't over in Germany. Also, be careful that it wasn't Anthony, Jr., that was baptized by Nass. That kind of information can be tricky. I've always assumed that Anthony joined the church in Germantown just after he came over (whenever that was!!), since there is no mention of Anthony before that. No one has found him in Germany before he immigrated, right? Also makes me wonder if the family changed their name when they came over. Why they would do that would be another story..... Beth Ann Deardorff ----- Original Message ----- From: <DESloan@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Baptism Question | | | In a message dated 5/26/2008 1:34:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, | badrenn@embarqmail.com writes: | | Where is it stated that Anthony was baptized by Nass? | | Beth Ann, | I need to look through my notes from my visit to Richmond, IN. I know | that it was in a book I looked at while researching in Earlham University. I | think it was a history of PA and NJ. There was no date given just a list of | names of those that John Naas baptized in Amwell. I might not have even made a | note of it. | | | Thanks, | Dave Sloan | | | | | | **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with | Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. | (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) | | ------------------------ | Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN | ------------------------ | Support Our Sponsoring Agency | The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) | For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com | ------------------------ | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message | ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Jeff Scism wrote: > > Merle, you mentioned Sarah Lybrook, in connection with the Miller family. > > You have anything on a Philip Lybrook? > > Anna MILLER b: September 28, 1765 in Pennsylvania or Maryland d: > September 14, 1833 in Union City, Indiana, USA > > ......... +Philip LYBROOK b: September 23, 1757 m: 1781 in Franklin, > Virginia, US > > Thanks, > > Jeff Scism > > > Yes, Anna Miller married Philip Lybrook. She was the mother of Sarah (Sally) Lybrook, gr grandmother of Mary Moss - and is my wife's ancestress (Mary's sister -Sarah -married Elder Carey Toney). Anna is buried beside Philip at the Lybrook Railsback Cemetery (found her stone buried underground). Lybrook Cemetery is in Union Co IN - south of Boston IN, a mile south of IN227/OH177, off the State Line Road (back in a field beside Four Mile Creek). This is on Elder Baltzar Lybrook's land, next south of Philip and Anna's place. Most of these houses are still standing. Pieces of original Lybrook furniture are scattered around among some of the families (cherry - huge boards! - we don't have any!). Information about them is in my Four Mile book (Virginia Settlement -or was it Virginia Colony?) at the Union County IN Library Web Page. L1 Philip LYBROOK....m. 1781..........Anna MILLER b. 23 Sep 1757 ?Montgomery Co VA...b. 28 Oct 1765 ?BrothersValley? PA d. 18 Feb 1842 Union Co IN.........d. 14 Sep 1833 Union Co IN bur: Lybrook Cemetery..............bur: Lybrook Cemetery f. Philip Leibrock.................f. Elder Jacob Miller ..................m. Franklin Co VA ch: ...Barbara....(1782-1856)..m. 1800, Jacob Kingery.......Union Co IN ...Catherine..(1783-1835)..m. 1818, Poindexter Toney....Preble Co OH ...Elizabeth..(1784-1831)..m. 1806, William Moss........Union Co IN ...John.......(1785-1846)..m. 1809, Fanny Toney.........Union Co IN ...Jacob......(1787-1869)..m. 1809, Elizabeth Crawford..Union Co IN ...Baltzer....(1789-1830)..m. 1813, Mary Eikenberry.....Union Co IN ...Philip.....(1790-1859)..m. 1818, Hannah Pentecost....Union Co IN ...Nancy......(1792-1858)..m. 1809, John Nelson.........Union Co IN ...Mary.......(1796-1854)..nm............(Polly)........Union Co IN ...Eve........(1797-1832)..m. 1818, Jesse Toney........?Union Co IN ...Phebe......(1799-1835)..m. 1821, Martin Kingery......Union Co IN ...Sally......(1803-1874)..m. 1820, James Toney.........Cass Co IN ...Susannah...(1806-1845)..nm....(raised Phebe's children) Philip - Indian Scout in VA - Shawnee War Path (WVa) 1806 - to Indiana Territory - left John/Jacob over winter -harvest corn 1807 - family to Indiana Terr - by wagon (Kanawha Way) ....properties adjacent Ohio State line..Jacob/John/Philip/Baltzar (N-S) .........most rest of children nearby ....Upper Four Mile Church Probate Book C p576 - Union Co IN William Moss and Baltzar Lybrook were early Four Mile Elders. Baltzer died in the 1832 Cholera Epidemic, so did William's wife, Elizabeth. William then married Baltzar's widow, Mary Eikenberry - and moved to Mexico IN. Bad cholera epidemic 1831-1833 -c1835? - "Everybody lost someone!" I have each of these families -and more. Madelaine is descended of both Barbara and Elizabeth. She is granddaughter of Elder Cornelius C Petry, and gr granddaughter of Elder Carey Toney (grandson of Barbara)(his wife was Sarah Moss, granddaughter of Elizabeth) - of Four Mile. Now I admit, there is an argument as to Philip Lybrook's parents - I had found a reference to him as Philip Jr, and a reference to a Philip Lybrook/Leibrock Sr at the Draper's Meadows Massacre. Other research refuses the Philip Lybrook Sr - and connects this Philip as son of a Baltzar Lybrook (will, et al - VA) I do not have proof, neither do they! There was a Henry Lybrook here (Preble Co side), who then moved on to Michigan. Henry IS a son of the Baltzar. (but Baltzar did not have a daughter: Barbara! -with no mention of Jacob Miller, of course -) I found two elderly ladies in the 1820 Census -in Philip Lybrook's house. I'm guessing one is the Barbara Lybrook, who seems to have married Elder Jacob Miller in 1802, coming to live with Philip, as younger brother (and Anna, as stepdaughter), after Elder Jacob died, and then dying in the 1821 Cholera Epidemic. There is a tradition that she brought Elder Jacob Miller's German Bible over here to the Four Mile with her. But during these 200 years I have no idea where such might have gone - even with one of the sons/grandsons to Iowa? My Brethren Roots article - of some years ago ("Who is Elder Jacob Miller?") summarizes all we know or suspect about him. We know 3 brothers for sure (Jacob-Tobias-Baltzar), and a sister (Catherine, from Baltzar Miller's will) - all in Franklin Co VA (and no, none of these are children of Michael Miller). We have leads about two more (Isaac and Daniel -in Franklin Co Census), and a possibility of at least one more (Martin -as possible deceased father of Col John Miller). Merle C Rummel

Dave, When you find it, let me know. I'd be interested in that information, too. Nass also preached in Germany, according to the history in those links..... makes you wonder if he did indeed baptize Anthony, if it wasn't over in Germany. Also, be careful that it wasn't Anthony, Jr., that was baptized by Nass. That kind of information can be tricky. I've always assumed that Anthony joined the church in Germantown just after he came over (whenever that was!!), since there is no mention of Anthony before that. No one has found him in Germany before he immigrated, right? Also makes me wonder if the family changed their name when they came over. Why they would do that would be another story..... Beth Ann Deardorff ----- Original Message ----- From: <DESloan@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Baptism Question | | | In a message dated 5/26/2008 1:34:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, | badrenn@embarqmail.com writes: | | Where is it stated that Anthony was baptized by Nass? | | Beth Ann, | I need to look through my notes from my visit to Richmond, IN. I know | that it was in a book I looked at while researching in Earlham University. I | think it was a history of PA and NJ. There was no date given just a list of | names of those that John Naas baptized in Amwell. I might not have even made a | note of it. | | | Thanks, | Dave Sloan | | | | | | **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with | Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. | (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) | | ------------------------ | Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN | ------------------------ | Support Our Sponsoring Agency | The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) | For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com | ------------------------ | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

In a message dated 5/26/2008 1:34:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, badrenn@embarqmail.com writes: Where is it stated that Anthony was baptized by Nass? Beth Ann, I need to look through my notes from my visit to Richmond, IN. I know that it was in a book I looked at while researching in Earlham University. I think it was a history of PA and NJ. There was no date given just a list of names of those that John Naas baptized in Amwell. I might not have even made a note of it. Thanks, Dave Sloan **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Dave, I know that (today) you can go to the Brethren Church without being baptized and be a part of the church (at least some of them today, you really can't lump them all together), but you can not become a member unless you've been baptized by immersion. Some will not accept the baptism by another church, and they will not accept infant baptism. Where is it stated that Anthony was baptized by Nass? I couldn't find it, and it might be my old eyes. I didn't see it in the links you provided. Is it in some other source? In your source is there a date? I would think that when Anthony was baptized that is when he joined the church. Beth Ann Deardorff ----- Original Message ----- From: <DESloan@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Baptism Question | Maybe I did not ask my original question very well. I have a 7th Great | Grandfather Anthony Dierdorff who was baptized at the Amwell, NJ church by John | Nass. | | "http://www.amwell.org/About/History/history.html | Amwell Church was organized in 1733. In the late fall of that year, when the | early German settlers in this area heard that John Naas had landed in | Philadelphia in mid-September, a delegation made up of Jacob Moore, Antony | Dierdorff, Rudolph Herli and John Peter Lausche waited on Naas and persuaded him to | return with them to Amwell as their first pastor" | | | _http://www.amwell.org/About/History/history.html_ | (http://www.amwell.org/About/History/history.html) | | "In Abraham Cassel's "Notices of the Bretheren's Early Churches, with | Biographical Sketches of Some of their First Ministers" there is the following | chapter: | | New Jersey - The first appearance of Brethren in New Jersey was 1733, when | the following 5 Brethren (who had come in with the last division of 30 families | from Holland, with Alexander Mack, in 1729), to wit Reverend Johann Naas, | Anthony Deerdorf, Jacob More, Rudolph Harley, and John Peter van Laushe, these | five with their families, crossed the Delaware in 1733, and settled at | Amwell, in Hunterdon County, about 40 miles NEE from Philadelphia." | | >From the above you would learn that Anthony Deerdorf came over with Mack and | Naas. The question then is why do I find records that state that Naas | baptized Anthony at the Amwell church, since the above states that he already was | a Brethren? | | Later at the same web site I find: | | "A Brief History of the Amwell Church | Amwell Church was organized in 1733. In the late fall of that year, when the | early German settlers in this area heard that John Naas had landed in | Philadelphia in mid-September, a delegation made up of Jacob Moore, Antony | Dierdorff, Rudolph Herli and John Peter Lausche waited on Naas and persuaded him to | return with them to Amwell as their first pastor. " | | >From this it can be inferred that the delegation was already living at | Amwell when Naas arrived from Holland with Mack. I guess that the delegation may | or may not have been Brethren when they asked Naas to return with them to | Amwell. This means that either Anthony Dierdorff came over with Peter Becker in | 1719. Or at some time in between. Of course a check of all the ship lists from | the one that Becker came on in 1719 to the ship that carried Mack in 1729 | does NOT show any Dierdorff or variation of the name. So, maybe he was sick in | the hold when they made the list for the ship that he came over on. | | Thanks, | Dave Sloan | | | | | | | | | **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with | Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. | (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) | | ------------------------ | Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN | ------------------------ | Support Our Sponsoring Agency | The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) | For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com | ------------------------ | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

Maybe I did not ask my original question very well. I have a 7th Great Grandfather Anthony Dierdorff who was baptized at the Amwell, NJ church by John Nass. "http://www.amwell.org/About/History/history.html Amwell Church was organized in 1733. In the late fall of that year, when the early German settlers in this area heard that John Naas had landed in Philadelphia in mid-September, a delegation made up of Jacob Moore, Antony Dierdorff, Rudolph Herli and John Peter Lausche waited on Naas and persuaded him to return with them to Amwell as their first pastor" _http://www.amwell.org/About/History/history.html_ (http://www.amwell.org/About/History/history.html) "In Abraham Cassel's "Notices of the Bretheren's Early Churches, with Biographical Sketches of Some of their First Ministers" there is the following chapter: New Jersey - The first appearance of Brethren in New Jersey was 1733, when the following 5 Brethren (who had come in with the last division of 30 families from Holland, with Alexander Mack, in 1729), to wit Reverend Johann Naas, Anthony Deerdorf, Jacob More, Rudolph Harley, and John Peter van Laushe, these five with their families, crossed the Delaware in 1733, and settled at Amwell, in Hunterdon County, about 40 miles NEE from Philadelphia." >From the above you would learn that Anthony Deerdorf came over with Mack and Naas. The question then is why do I find records that state that Naas baptized Anthony at the Amwell church, since the above states that he already was a Brethren? Later at the same web site I find: "A Brief History of the Amwell Church Amwell Church was organized in 1733. In the late fall of that year, when the early German settlers in this area heard that John Naas had landed in Philadelphia in mid-September, a delegation made up of Jacob Moore, Antony Dierdorff, Rudolph Herli and John Peter Lausche waited on Naas and persuaded him to return with them to Amwell as their first pastor. " >From this it can be inferred that the delegation was already living at Amwell when Naas arrived from Holland with Mack. I guess that the delegation may or may not have been Brethren when they asked Naas to return with them to Amwell. This means that either Anthony Dierdorff came over with Peter Becker in 1719. Or at some time in between. Of course a check of all the ship lists from the one that Becker came on in 1719 to the ship that carried Mack in 1729 does NOT show any Dierdorff or variation of the name. So, maybe he was sick in the hold when they made the list for the ship that he came over on. Thanks, Dave Sloan **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Ratcliffe" <daleratcliffe@sbcglobal.net> To: <BRETHREN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:33 PM Subject: [BRE] Letters > Recently I received some meeting minutes from a COB church in Arizona. > The > minutes frequently referred to "letters." Could someone explain the use > of > letters? Were they used for transferring membership from one church to > another and as proof of church business? Here are some examples: > > > > Bro. Peter Forney was granted a traveling letter. > > Bro. Isaac Forney also asked for his letter again but it was refused > because > he was not leaving. > > Letters were granted to Sister Bertha Gillett and Bro. Ezra Fike > > Letters received as follows: Ruben Young (Deacon) and wife Clara. > > Bro. J.G. Rarick and wife was granted letter of membership > > The following letters were received. > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008 > 8:56 AM > >

Jan is fundamentally correct here. Our historical Brethren understanding, the understanding of the church through the 18th - 19th century and even beyond, is that baptism is "an outward sign of inward grace." Baptism, then, is an indication that the recipient is saved, that God has dealt graciously with that person, and their eternal life is assured. Membership within the church is something that followed, as a "natural" outcome of baptism as a sign of salvation. A saved follower of Christ is, quite sensibly, a member of Christ's church. But one was never baptized, in the Brethren community, in order to "join the church." One was baptized to acknowledge and receive the grace of God, through Christ, and then one ipso facto became a church member. Peace to all, Joe Custer Bethany congregation northern Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: <KTompk7744@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Baptism Question > Baptism meant/means that you have consciously accepted Jesus as Savior. > That's the primary intent. The stuff with church membership is > peripheral. > > Being baptized also means that you can officially become a voting member > of > the congregation (though I suppose you could request baptism and decline > church membership) because you couldn't become a member of the > congregation > without having been baptized SOMEWHERE. Hence the church letters that > allow you > to transfer your membership from one congregation to another. > > JanT > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Baptism meant/means that you have consciously accepted Jesus as Savior. That's the primary intent. The stuff with church membership is peripheral. Being baptized also means that you can officially become a voting member of the congregation (though I suppose you could request baptism and decline church membership) because you couldn't become a member of the congregation without having been baptized SOMEWHERE. Hence the church letters that allow you to transfer your membership from one congregation to another. JanT **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

You can see Merle's LYBROOK family information starting with Philip and Anna on the Union County, Indiana web site at: http://www.union-county.lib.in.us/GenwebVA4mile/lybrook.htm as part of his Virginia Settlement or Four Mile COB at http://www.union-county.lib.in.us/GenwebVA4mile/Table%20of%20Contents%204M.h tm I have also seen the LYBROOK family history in a book in the Allen County Indiana public library http://www.acpl.lib.in.us/ . I don't recall the title right now, perhaps Merle or someone else does? Stan Follis, Family Historian Genealogy web site: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~sfollis/ -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Scism Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:56 AM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Baptism Question Merle, you mentioned Sarah Lybrook, in connection with the Miller family. You have anything on a Philip Lybrook? Anna MILLER b: September 28, 1765 in Pennsylvania or Maryland d: September 14, 1833 in Union City, Indiana, USA ......... +Philip LYBROOK b: September 23, 1757 m: 1781 in Franklin, Virginia, US Thanks, Jeff Scism

Judy Florian wrote: > >From my understanding of 1800s German Baptists, people (children, teens, > adults) attended church services, but were not put on the membership list > until they made the adult choice of baptism. Can someone tell me if I'm > mixed up on this? > > It would explain why so many names within families are missing on the church > roll I researched, and why children do not appear until teenagers or just > before / just after their marriages. I never saw little children on the > List. > > In a First Christian church in the same county, I read Minutes from 1800s > that had people getting baptized several times. That always confused me-- > didn't the first time "take"? > > OK - I chuckled - Yes, some use a re-baptism as a re-dedication of life. It was an original practice (and still is a practice among some of the German Baptist Brethren) that baptism come as adults, after marriage. So in a way, it was a dedication of the family to the church. I just looked up the data on Elder William Smith Toney (because of the William SMITH name) - anyway - he married Mary Moss in 1861, and they were baptized in 1864 -already having 2 children! William Smith Toney's mother (Sarah Lybrook) was a granddaughter of Elder Jacob Miller, and the family lived just south of the Upper Four Mile Church - his father, James Toney, was a deacon at Upper Four Mile, and Mary Moss' grandfather (who raised her after the death of her mother) was also a deacon. Elder William Smith Toney became one of the leading Church of the Brethren Elders of Central Indiana (moving to Cass Co IN) - so don't tell me they were not active in the church. Merle C Rummel

Merle, you mentioned Sarah Lybrook, in connection with the Miller family. You have anything on a Philip Lybrook? Anna MILLER b: September 28, 1765 in Pennsylvania or Maryland d: September 14, 1833 in Union City, Indiana, USA ......... +Philip LYBROOK b: September 23, 1757 m: 1781 in Franklin, Virginia, US Thanks, Jeff Scism Merle C Rummel wrote: > > I just looked up the data on Elder William Smith Toney (because of the > William SMITH name) - anyway - he married Mary Moss in 1861, and they > were baptized in 1864 -already having 2 children! William Smith Toney's > mother (Sarah Lybrook) was a granddaughter of Elder Jacob Miller, and > the family lived just south of the Upper Four Mile Church - his father, > James Toney, was a deacon at Upper Four Mile, and Mary Moss' grandfather > (who raised her after the death of her mother) was also a deacon. Elder > William Smith Toney became one of the leading Church of the Brethren > Elders of Central Indiana (moving to Cass Co IN) - so don't tell me they > were not active in the church. > > Merle C Rummel > -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~ "Proponents of each side are vying with determination to prove their ignorance is greater than the other." President Andrew Jackson, discussing a bill going through the US Congress. Visit http://ibssg.org/ For The Blacksheep website, MORE... Putnam County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ingenweb.org/inputnam/bios/ Montgomery County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/ Fountain County Indiana Biographies and Obituaries http://ingenweb.org/infountain/vitals/bios/

>From my understanding of 1800s German Baptists, people (children, teens, adults) attended church services, but were not put on the membership list until they made the adult choice of baptism. Can someone tell me if I'm mixed up on this? It would explain why so many names within families are missing on the church roll I researched, and why children do not appear until teenagers or just before / just after their marriages. I never saw little children on the List. In GB Minutes, Committees did go out to "talk to" Bro somebody to discuss letting his kids go to dances... or not educating the kids. In a First Christian church in the same county, I read Minutes from 1800s that had people getting baptized several times. That always confused me-- didn't the first time "take"? Judy On 5/26/08, DESloan@aol.com <DESloan@aol.com> wrote: > > In the 1700's and early 1800's when a member was baptized, does this mean > that this is when they joined the church? Or, does it mean that his is when > they > joined this congregation, and may have been a member of the church prior to > this baptism? > > Thanks, > Dave Sloan >

In the 1700's and early 1800's when a member was baptized, does this mean that this is when they joined the church? Or, does it mean that his is when they joined this congregation, and may have been a member of the church prior to this baptism? Thanks, Dave Sloan **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

A few comments upon letters, and an example, from the history of the La Verne Church of the Brethren. 1) In the Annual Meeting of 1898 it was decided that when a member changed to a new church, the church clerk or secretary would fill out and issue a standard slip. It would be affixed to an “annexed certificate” and returned to the clerk of the church that issued the certificate, to complete the transfer. Such a form letter found in La Verne’s church records reads as follows: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Church Letter This certifies that Mr. & Mrs. A.W. Warner presented their certificate of membership and is under the watch-care of the Pomona church. Date: 11/16/47. Pastor, H.E. Thomas. No. 44 P.O. Pomona, State: Calif. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) New members, received by baptism or by letter, were officially introduced to the congregation in a Sunday morning service, often at Easter. Their names were mentioned in the church bulletin and read into the minutes of the next Quarterly Council. Rev. Galen Walker summed up eight years in 1937 by noting that “We received 179 souls by baptism...254 by church letter, and granted 180 church letters.” [Granting to members moving to other churches.] 3) In one very early case, a disgruntled member demanded his church letter, to be given to him. The church preferred to mail it to the church he would be joining. Finally, reluctantly, they gave him his church letter and he vanished from our history. 3) In 1939, the April Church Council considered the question of what should be done when a person wished to join the church but did not have a letter of transfer. It was agreed that such persons state their case to the Membership Committee, and “If a confession of sin appears necessary, it shall be made to the committee and their confession of faith shall in every case be given to the committee. It this presentation meets the approval of the committee, they shall recommend that membership be granted to the persons concerned, and shall present the recommendation to the Official Board. If the Official Board approves, they shall recommend that the Council grant the persons membership in the church. This recommendation shall be presented to the church for final action." 4) In January, 1940, the La Verne church considered whether outsiders from other denominations be accepted into the La Verne church with just a transfer of letters, and no re-baptism? The issue was initiated by a request for membership by a new dentist in town, Dr. Worth. The Board recommended that a category of “Associate” members be set up as Section B under Section I, Article III of the constitution. "A" would be "Regular Membership”: “B” would read “Members of other Evangelical Churches, who are in good standing, may become associate members of this church upon recommendation of the membership committee and the official board. The associate member has all the privileges of a layman except to represent the church at District or Annual conferences.” A motion for this passed. The Board soon approved the Worths as associate members. Galen **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Don't know if it is any help but I have a Sophia Shock (b. 11-17-1832) in Preble Co. OH who married an Israel Brubaker of the same county and died in 1982. Ray -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Nance <nance188@yahoo.com> > I am a descendant of Lawrence Shook but by no means an expert on the family. > From all that I have found it is still inconclusive where he was a son, a > relative or just someone with the same last name as Harmonious (Herman) Shook. > Would be pretty coincidental if they are not related to be living in such close > proximity. > I look forward to postings on this family.....Nancy > > Rebecca Stephens <blhstair1@bright.net> wrote: > Can anyone help me with the Shook family of Frederick Co. ( now > Washington Co. ) Maryland. Trying to determine if any of these > descendants ended up in Greene County, Ohio. > Lawrence Shook b. 1733 is said to have been associated with the German > Baptist Brethren. Shook spelling also Schock/Schuck. German Lutheran. > Herman Shook b. ca. 1718 is said to have been of German Lutheran faith. > >From Hardy County Virginia. > Any help on these two families would be greatly appreciated. Trying to > determine a possible connection between the two families. > Thank you, > Rebecca Houdeshell Stephens > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

I found the following information relating to the Ephrata Cloisters in Lancaster County. "Pennsylvania vital records: from the Pennsylvania genealogical magazine and the Pennsylvania magazine of history and biography," Vol. I (1983), page 166. Recorded deaths. 1741 -- 28. Johan Mack's Mother. I wonder if this isn't a transcription mistake, that the reference should be to Johann Mack's wife. As far as I know, the only Johann or Johannes Mack associated with the Brethren in America in 1741 was the Johannes Mack who was a son of Alexander Mack, Sr. Since it is known that Alexander's wife (Johannes' mother) died in Surhuisterveen in 1720, the woman who died in 1741 couldn't be her. Does anyone have access to a different version of this record, possibly one recorded in the original German? The original might use the term wife rather than mother. Thanks. David Myers