Winter and all, We welcome discussions on this list of how the Brethren lived and what they thought, with this caveat: such discussions should always be done with respect for and a sincere desire to understand our ancestors *as they were,* not as we see things today, nor as we *wish* they had been. The authors of the source documents we find often had biases which influenced the way they interpreted the facts (no doubt, in another generation or two, those who read our discussions will see that sometimes our statements are also fraught with biases). So, we should always be careful in asserting that any one author has everything just right. One of the Biblical aphorism often quoted by the Brethren is "in a multitude of counselors there is safety." These discussions can prove valuable to us all, if we keep these guidelines in mind. JS, for the moderators At 11:00 am -0700 7/2/08, winter dellenbach wrote: >Hi - I don't intend to debate theology here - anabaptism, pietism or >pacifism. My intention is to clarify beliefs when doing so can shed >light on our gen. research. Pacifism is grounded in our Brethren/ >Mennonite European history and persecution and is a big subject with >current application and relevance - but shouldn't that discussion done >elsewhere? >winter -- __________________________ James Shuman, Co-Moderator jshuman@telis.org __________________________

Hi - I don't intend to debate theology here - anabaptism, pietism or pacifism. My intention is to clarify beliefs when doing so can shed light on our gen. research. Pacifism is grounded in our Brethren/ Mennonite European history and persecution and is a big subject with current application and relevance - but shouldn't that discussion done elsewhere? winter

I, too, have had some difficulty with the use of the terms Pietists and Anabaptists--and would enjoy a good explanation. Recently I spent some time with a Brethren couple in Indiana--whom Merle knows--and left with much confusion over his belief in pacifism. He, seeming like others responding on this forum, take a certain pride in being a pacifist and I wonder how they view the aggressors of the world. Yesterday we learned that Daniel Boone killed only three indians--but on the Ohio frontier would the Brethren have simply stood by and watched their family and friends be slaughtered? This is a serious question, not solicitous nor trying to provoke a response. Ron Snowden Orem, Utah

A couple of additional points: First, in Pennsylvania, each township had one or more companies in the militia, each company organized by the "neighborhood" where one lived. Second, one did not need to sign up for the militia as every adult male through age 53 was automatically listed in his local militia. Being on the local militia list served as a census of the neighborhood, much like the local tax list. There was no "signing up." One had no choice. If one didn't want to attend musters, he had the choice of finding a substitute and/or paying fines. In the Pennsylvania Archives are pages and pages of militia men who paid fines instead of participating. Many if not most of the Lancaster County Brethren were on these lists of men who paid fines for missing musters. These are men whom historically have been granted patriot status by the DAR. I have cousins who are members of the DAR whose "patriot" ancestors never attended a single muster, let alone fire a shot. They were Brethren farmers who paid their fines. Dwayne Wrightsman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill & Lynn Sewell" <lbsewell@frontiernet.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] DAR/Anabaptists >From a historical view point, many Brethren were in the militias not >because they supported the war, but to protect their land during the Am. Revolution. Also Pa had fines for those who did not sign up for the militias. Each county had its own militia. Most Germans already had long rifles, which were used for hunting game. They did not have uniforms which as pictured in so many books and many did not even fire a shot during the Rev. Lynn Hilty Sewell

> > First, I highly recommend you read the book “Brethren in the New Nation”, by > Sappington. Although this book does not deal with the Revolutionary War > period, it does go into explicit detail regarding how the Brethren dealt > with the draft during the Civil War. The attitudes toward pacifism shown in > Sappington’s book during the Civil War would also have been the same in the > Revolutionary War. The non-enroller listings for Frederick County, MD, and > the non-associator listings for Lancaster County, support this view. > > Let me complicate the picture - I took the Conscientious Objector stand during the Korean War, but my son went into the Marines - so I have some sympathy with both sides - In this research I've been doing on the Early Brethren in Kentucky - the "Frontier Brethren" - one of the observations I am making was that these Brethren held strongly to the Pietist origin of our church - and there were differences. Dr Dale Brown, who taught the Pietism Course at Bethany Seminary, made the point strong that we Brethren today do not know what Pietism was. What he taught was the history of the beginnings - and he admitted that there were no records, except for Ephrata (a Radical Pietism), to show what it meant in the life of the individual and the church. The Brethren Church of today comes out of the Brethren of eastern Pennsylvania and Maryland (and slightly in Virginia, the Brethren had only been in the Valley a couple years before the war started) who survived the persecution of the Revolutionary period. Our stand was based both on the Bible -the commandment - "Thou shalt not kill." (The Hebrew word is "ratasch" - which means to kill a person -as opposed to "sachat" -which means to kill an animal. - so to explain it as "no murder" is incorrect!) and through our promise ("A Dunker's word is as good as his bond!") of loyalty to the King. We appreciated the opportunity the King gave, to permit us to live in this peaceful land, after the devastations suffered in the Palatinate during the wars of Europe. The Sons of Liberty, proponents of the Revolution, but not a majority of the population, terrorized those who stood in opposition to them. The Brethren, and Mennonites and Amish (fellow Anabaptists), were persecuted - some severely. The church "withdrew" into community with these others also suffering for their stand. Shall I say, we hid out together. The early Brethren were nearly opposite. The Germantown Church (mother church) was reported to pray and sing so loud, that it hurt your ears, clear down the street (Durnbaugh). Many a Brethren home became a center of evangelism to their neighbors. Pietism was concerned with a revival of the individual, to bring them to a closer relationship to Jesus. Creeds and practices hardly mattered. The original pietism spread through all the churches of Germany. There were only two denominations to directly result out of the movement, and the Brethren are one - and even his mentor, Hochmann von Hochenau, was upset about what Alexander Mack had done. As such, Dr Floyd Mallot, professor of Church History at Bethany Seminary, used to ask - "What happened to the Brethren during the Revolution? They Changed!" The change was from Pietism to Anabaptism - from an open freedom to a type of legalism. The church Elders met in an Annual Meeting, where they determined the direction of the Church, and they enforced their decisions on the churches. This was not Pietism, this was Anabaptism - and the Brethren who had migrated west (Brothers Valley, and Washington Co PA) and south (the Carolinas), and some few who were in Kaintuck - were Pietist - they had left before Annual Meeting developed and before the emphasis on Anabaptism. As one migrant coming to Ohio on the new National Road (US 40) -about 1826 asked: "What do we do about these 'Strange Brethren'?" There was considerable difference between the Brethren, who were already here, and these Annual Meeting Brethren who came later -and Annual Meeting kicked all these early Brethren OUT (unless they changed -and accepted the Annual Meeting decisions - see the records on the "Far Western Brethren" and Elder George Wolfe Jr - George Wolfe accepted the Annual Meeting way, many others did not!) The Frontier Brethren do not seem to have had the strong stand for Pacifism that was true of the Annual Meeting Brethren. They did defend themselves against the British and Indian invasions. Some of them killed, others reloaded the guns for the fighters or tended injured or fought fires from the fire arrows. It was as Daniel Boone (Quaker origin) said (speaking of being a waggoner for General Braddock, at the defeat at Pittsburg) -he killed the first of only three Indians that he killed in his life. Many of the early Brethren in Kentucky were youth who had fought in the Revolution (Capt Henry Rhoads -of Brothers Valley - in Muhlenberg Co KY 1784). Some had even been expelled from their family back home, because of the war, but they were still Brethren -and carried the Brethren faith with them (but Pietism -and not the Anabaptism). Annual Meeting "expelled" (Frontier Brethren term) these early Brethren about 1826. Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hon were placed on the Ban (the Brethren Encyclopedia calls them "the Hostetler Brethren", they called themselves "the Brethren Association"). From what Historian Abraham Cassel says, in numbers it may have been almost half the denomination. The Brethren, in that time, practiced what they called: "Unanimity" - we sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our decisions, so there could be no decision until the whole body voted unanimous. The Annual Meeting Brethren saw these Frontier Brethren as not accepting the decisions of the Holy Spirit (but the Frontier Brethren had not been present when the decisions were made, and seem to have not even known about the question or the decision!) So they had to change and accept the Annual Meeting decision - or leave. The Brethren of the Civil War period were All - Annual Meeting Brethren, the Brethren of the Revolution were not. Be sure - there were other differences between the Pietist faith and Anabaptism - we don't really know them all (someone needs to translate the commentary of the Pietist Berleberg Bible -I'm sure it would tell us things we don't know about Pietist beliefs - but it is HUGE - 8 volumes, over 1000 pages each - 18th Century German) Merle C Rummel

>From a historical view point, many Brethren were in the militias not because they supported the war, but to protect their land during the Am. Revolution. Also Pa had fines for those who did not sign up for the militias. Each county had its own militia. Most Germans already had long rifles, which were used for hunting game. They did not have uniforms which as pictured in so many books and many did not even fire a shot during the Rev. Lynn Hilty Sewell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <cliff@rtkonline.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] DAR/Anabaptists > > First, I highly recommend you read the book “Brethren in the New Nation”, > by > Sappington. Although this book does not deal with the Revolutionary War > period, it does go into explicit detail regarding how the Brethren dealt > with the draft during the Civil War. The attitudes toward pacifism shown > in > Sappington’s book during the Civil War would also have been the same in > the > Revolutionary War. The non-enroller listings for Frederick County, MD, > and > the non-associator listings for Lancaster County, support this view. > > Let me complicate the picture - I took the Conscientious Objector stand during the Korean War, but my son went into the Marines - so I have some sympathy with both sides - In this research I've been doing on the Early Brethren in Kentucky - the "Frontier Brethren" - one of the observations I am making was that these Brethren held strongly to the Pietist origin of our church - and there were differences. Dr Dale Brown, who taught the Pietism Course at Bethany Seminary, made the point strong that we Brethren today do not know what Pietism was. What he taught was the history of the beginnings - and he admitted that there were no records, except for Ephrata (a Radical Pietism), to show what it meant in the life of the individual and the church. The Brethren Church of today comes out of the Brethren of eastern Pennsylvania and Maryland (and slightly in Virginia, the Brethren had only been in the Valley a couple years before the war started) who survived the persecution of the Revolutionary period. Our stand was based both on the Bible -the commandment - "Thou shalt not kill." (The Hebrew word is "ratasch" - which means to kill a person -as opposed to "sachat" -which means to kill an animal. - so to explain it as "no murder" is incorrect!) and through our promise ("A Dunker's word is as good as his bond!") of loyalty to the King. We appreciated the opportunity the King gave, to permit us to live in this peaceful land, after the devastations suffered in the Palatinate during the wars of Europe. The Sons of Liberty, proponents of the Revolution, but not a majority of the population, terrorized those who stood in opposition to them. The Brethren, and Mennonites and Amish (fellow Anabaptists), were persecuted - some severely. The church "withdrew" into community with these others also suffering for their stand. Shall I say, we hid out together. The early Brethren were nearly opposite. The Germantown Church (mother church) was reported to pray and sing so loud, that it hurt your ears, clear down the street (Durnbaugh). Many a Brethren home became a center of evangelism to their neighbors. Pietism was concerned with a revival of the individual, to bring them to a closer relationship to Jesus. Creeds and practices hardly mattered. The original pietism spread through all the churches of Germany. There were only two denominations to directly result out of the movement, and the Brethren are one - and even his mentor, Hochmann von Hochenau, was upset about what Alexander Mack had done. As such, Dr Floyd Mallot, professor of Church History at Bethany Seminary, used to ask - "What happened to the Brethren during the Revolution? They Changed!" The change was from Pietism to Anabaptism - from an open freedom to a type of legalism. The church Elders met in an Annual Meeting, where they determined the direction of the Church, and they enforced their decisions on the churches. This was not Pietism, this was Anabaptism - and the Brethren who had migrated west (Brothers Valley, and Washington Co PA) and south (the Carolinas), and some few who were in Kaintuck - were Pietist - they had left before Annual Meeting developed and before the emphasis on Anabaptism. As one migrant coming to Ohio on the new National Road (US 40) -about 1826 asked: "What do we do about these 'Strange Brethren'?" There was considerable difference between the Brethren, who were already here, and these Annual Meeting Brethren who came later -and Annual Meeting kicked all these early Brethren OUT (unless they changed -and accepted the Annual Meeting decisions - see the records on the "Far Western Brethren" and Elder George Wolfe Jr - George Wolfe accepted the Annual Meeting way, many others did not!) The Frontier Brethren do not seem to have had the strong stand for Pacifism that was true of the Annual Meeting Brethren. They did defend themselves against the British and Indian invasions. Some of them killed, others reloaded the guns for the fighters or tended injured or fought fires from the fire arrows. It was as Daniel Boone (Quaker origin) said (speaking of being a waggoner for General Braddock, at the defeat at Pittsburg) -he killed the first of only three Indians that he killed in his life. Many of the early Brethren in Kentucky were youth who had fought in the Revolution (Capt Henry Rhoads -of Brothers Valley - in Muhlenberg Co KY 1784). Some had even been expelled from their family back home, because of the war, but they were still Brethren -and carried the Brethren faith with them (but Pietism -and not the Anabaptism). Annual Meeting "expelled" (Frontier Brethren term) these early Brethren about 1826. Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hon were placed on the Ban (the Brethren Encyclopedia calls them "the Hostetler Brethren", they called themselves "the Brethren Association"). From what Historian Abraham Cassel says, in numbers it may have been almost half the denomination. The Brethren, in that time, practiced what they called: "Unanimity" - we sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our decisions, so there could be no decision until the whole body voted unanimous. The Annual Meeting Brethren saw these Frontier Brethren as not accepting the decisions of the Holy Spirit (but the Frontier Brethren had not been present when the decisions were made, and seem to have not even known about the question or the decision!) So they had to change and accept the Annual Meeting decision - or leave. The Brethren of the Civil War period were All - Annual Meeting Brethren, the Brethren of the Revolution were not. Be sure - there were other differences between the Pietist faith and Anabaptism - we don't really know them all (someone needs to translate the commentary of the Pietist Berleberg Bible -I'm sure it would tell us things we don't know about Pietist beliefs - but it is HUGE - 8 volumes, over 1000 pages each - 18th Century German) Merle C Rummel ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merle - thank you for your info. re: Pietistism, Anabaptism," Annual Meeting Brethren" and the "Pietist/Far West Brethren". I saw the subject line, DAR and did not read some of the earlier emails thru lack of time. But now I read your interesting review of Church and war history. My family was involved with Ephrata and also around the Far West Brethren in Montgomery Co. OH, so I am interested in what you had to say - that some move to KY or OH before Annual meetings started was something I hadn't considered before. I would like to understand the difference between Anabaptism and Pietism. I have read explanations, but particularly with pietism, the explanations have been abstract and non-specific and I never really understood. Could you simply explain the specifc, broad points of each? I would really appreciate it. winter On Jul 2, 2008, at 4:52 AM, Merle C Rummel wrote: > >> >> First, I highly recommend you read the book “Brethren in the New >> Nation”, by >> Sappington. Although this book does not deal with the >> Revolutionary War >> period, it does go into explicit detail regarding how the Brethren >> dealt >> with the draft during the Civil War. The attitudes toward pacifism >> shown in >> Sappington’s book during the Civil War would also have been the >> same in the >> Revolutionary War. The non-enroller listings for Frederick County, >> MD, and >> the non-associator listings for Lancaster County, support this view. >> >> > > Let me complicate the picture - > > I took the Conscientious Objector stand during the Korean War, but my > son went into the Marines - so I have some sympathy with both sides - > > In this research I've been doing on the Early Brethren in Kentucky - > the > "Frontier Brethren" - one of the observations I am making was that > these > Brethren held strongly to the Pietist origin of our church - and there > were differences. Dr Dale Brown, who taught the Pietism Course at > Bethany Seminary, made the point strong that we Brethren today do not > know what Pietism was. What he taught was the history of the > beginnings > - and he admitted that there were no records, except for Ephrata (a > Radical Pietism), to show what it meant in the life of the individual > and the church. > > The Brethren Church of today comes out of the Brethren of eastern > Pennsylvania and Maryland (and slightly in Virginia, the Brethren had > only been in the Valley a couple years before the war started) who > survived the persecution of the Revolutionary period. Our stand was > based both on the Bible -the commandment - "Thou shalt not kill." (The > Hebrew word is "ratasch" - which means to kill a person -as opposed to > "sachat" -which means to kill an animal. - so to explain it as "no > murder" is incorrect!) and through our promise ("A Dunker's word is as > good as his bond!") of loyalty to the King. We appreciated the > opportunity the King gave, to permit us to live in this peaceful land, > after the devastations suffered in the Palatinate during the wars of > Europe. The Sons of Liberty, proponents of the Revolution, but not a > majority of the population, terrorized those who stood in opposition > to > them. The Brethren, and Mennonites and Amish (fellow Anabaptists), > were > persecuted - some severely. The church "withdrew" into community with > these others also suffering for their stand. Shall I say, we hid out > together. > > The early Brethren were nearly opposite. The Germantown Church (mother > church) was reported to pray and sing so loud, that it hurt your ears, > clear down the street (Durnbaugh). Many a Brethren home became a > center > of evangelism to their neighbors. Pietism was concerned with a revival > of the individual, to bring them to a closer relationship to Jesus. > Creeds and practices hardly mattered. The original pietism spread > through all the churches of Germany. There were only two denominations > to directly result out of the movement, and the Brethren are one - and > even his mentor, Hochmann von Hochenau, was upset about what Alexander > Mack had done. > > As such, Dr Floyd Mallot, professor of Church History at Bethany > Seminary, used to ask - "What happened to the Brethren during the > Revolution? They Changed!" The change was from Pietism to Anabaptism - > from an open freedom to a type of legalism. The church Elders met in > an > Annual Meeting, where they determined the direction of the Church, and > they enforced their decisions on the churches. > > This was not Pietism, this was Anabaptism - and the Brethren who had > migrated west (Brothers Valley, and Washington Co PA) and south (the > Carolinas), and some few who were in Kaintuck - were Pietist - they > had > left before Annual Meeting developed and before the emphasis on > Anabaptism. As one migrant coming to Ohio on the new National Road (US > 40) -about 1826 asked: "What do we do about these 'Strange Brethren'?" > There was considerable difference between the Brethren, who were > already > here, and these Annual Meeting Brethren who came later -and Annual > Meeting kicked all these early Brethren OUT (unless they changed -and > accepted the Annual Meeting decisions - see the records on the "Far > Western Brethren" and Elder George Wolfe Jr - George Wolfe accepted > the > Annual Meeting way, many others did not!) > > The Frontier Brethren do not seem to have had the strong stand for > Pacifism that was true of the Annual Meeting Brethren. They did defend > themselves against the British and Indian invasions. Some of them > killed, others reloaded the guns for the fighters or tended injured or > fought fires from the fire arrows. It was as Daniel Boone (Quaker > origin) said (speaking of being a waggoner for General Braddock, at > the > defeat at Pittsburg) -he killed the first of only three Indians that > he > killed in his life. Many of the early Brethren in Kentucky were youth > who had fought in the Revolution (Capt Henry Rhoads -of Brothers > Valley > - in Muhlenberg Co KY 1784). Some had even been expelled from their > family back home, because of the war, but they were still Brethren - > and > carried the Brethren faith with them (but Pietism -and not the > Anabaptism). > > Annual Meeting "expelled" (Frontier Brethren term) these early > Brethren > about 1826. Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hon were placed on > the > Ban (the Brethren Encyclopedia calls them "the Hostetler Brethren", > they > called themselves "the Brethren Association"). From what Historian > Abraham Cassel says, in numbers it may have been almost half the > denomination. The Brethren, in that time, practiced what they called: > "Unanimity" - we sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our > decisions, so there could be no decision until the whole body voted > unanimous. The Annual Meeting Brethren saw these Frontier Brethren as > not accepting the decisions of the Holy Spirit (but the Frontier > Brethren had not been present when the decisions were made, and seem > to > have not even known about the question or the decision!) So they had > to > change and accept the Annual Meeting decision - or leave. > > The Brethren of the Civil War period were All - Annual Meeting > Brethren, > the Brethren of the Revolution were not. > > Be sure - there were other differences between the Pietist faith and > Anabaptism - we don't really know them all (someone needs to translate > the commentary of the Pietist Berleberg Bible -I'm sure it would > tell us > things we don't know about Pietist beliefs - but it is HUGE - 8 > volumes, > over 1000 pages each - 18th Century German) > > Merle C Rummel > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams > mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Thank you Emmert. Are you the author of Allegheny Passage? I periodically look for it on used book listings since it is out of print. Someday, maybe. People who bought it seem to be holding on to it. Have you written about the Civil War period? If so, could you give title and publication info? Beverly **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Thank you so much. I will check the site. Marcia ----- Original Message ----- From: <Bb43@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] A start...Meyer (DAR) > Hi, Marcia. > > I just went to the _www.dar.org_ (http://www.dar.org) site. I believe I > went to the genealogy section, and asked them to do a serach for my > ancestor (all > online). That's when I got the ten hits about Michael Meyers. Then I > pulled > up the documentation submitted. > > I also asked about several other ancestors (not the same Meyers line), and > for the ones that didn't show up the researcher offered to help me with > the > documentation I need if I choose to go ahead. > > A very friendly site even for newcomers. > > Beverly > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Marcia. I just went to the _www.dar.org_ (http://www.dar.org) site. I believe I went to the genealogy section, and asked them to do a serach for my ancestor (all online). That's when I got the ten hits about Michael Meyers. Then I pulled up the documentation submitted. I also asked about several other ancestors (not the same Meyers line), and for the ones that didn't show up the researcher offered to help me with the documentation I need if I choose to go ahead. A very friendly site even for newcomers. Beverly **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Beverly: Michael's father Rudolph Meyer (II) died in 1783 and is buried in a Mennonite Cemetery in North Annville Township in what is now Lebanon County, which is also near where they lived. That is quite a distance from Philadelphia. Obviously, a member of the Philadelphia militia would be a resident of Philadelphia. Michael's grandfather Rudolph immigrated in 1717 with a large group of Mennonites. When you do research on the Meyer family, you also have to deal with the various spellings (Meyer, Meyers, Moyer, Mayer, Myer, etc.). It gets quite confusing. I'm not sure how you can tie any specific Meyer to a specific war veteran based on name, age and location. You really need more specific evidence. I have also found obituaries and newspaper articles of descendents to be unreliable, since they like to turn folk lore into fact. For example, an article on one of my great grandfathers had his grandfathers name wrong! Another obituary of a relative made a connection to a famous general, which turned out to be hogwash. The DAR lineage I have on Michael only lists the first generation, but includes Martin Meyer of Morrell Kansas. Emmert Bittinger's Meyer article in Mennonite Family History (January 2000, not mid-90's as I previously noted), notes that Martin was a minister of the Middle Creek Church, before moving to Carroll County, Illinois in 1863 and in 1882 to Kansas. It also notes that he was a surveyor and had 15 children. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bb43@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 4:10 AM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] A start...Meyer Hi, Bill. Couldn't sleep tonight, so I found my copy of the DAR application I got online. Ten people have become members based on the service of Michael Meyers - the lines run through his children Michael who married Elisabeth Lichty, Jacob who married Hannah Lichty, Barbara who married Jacob C. Lichty, and Martin who married Sally Witt. (This is my line.) E. M. Flickinger became a member in 2003, based on her documentation through Martin and Sally. I have much of the same documentation (as I listed in an earlier post.) But the documentation between Martin L. and Michael Meyers is stronger than mine.. But based on your previous post, I looked up his regiment listed on the DAR papers, and the list is from the City of Philadelphia Militia. At that time I don't believe his family lived in Philadelphia, so without seeing the specific reference in the Pennsylvania Archives, it seems rather unlikely this fifteen year old soldier was the same Michael Meyers that is my ancester. Thanks, Beverly **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Judy, Brothers Valley was in the OLD Bedford County. The old Bedford County was very large. I believe I've read that it held parts of 20 present day counties. Brothers Valley is located in present day Somerset County, and Somerset County was created in 1795 from the western part of Bedford County. To me, generally speaking, that area is southwestern PA - Greene and Fayette are the western most of the bottom tier of counties, but Somerset is next, just east of Fayette. I was just speaking in?general terms. The book has a surname index in the back. There are no entries for ANTHONY, LEHN, SEPTER or BAIL. There's one entry for LANE with a cross-reference: LANE, Adeline (Knepper, Peter) Entries for Baker and BECKER entries (some are cross-referenced in the index): BAKER BAKER,Abraham BAKER, Annie BAKER, Christine Louise (or Ronald) BAKER, David BAKER, Jonathan BAKER (Becker), John BAKER, Lewis BAKER, Mabel M. BAKER, Myra BAKER (Becker), Peter BAKER, Philip BAKER, Ronald (of David) BECKER (Baker), Peter BECKER, Ruth The general BAKER family reference is in the description of the formation of the Sipesville Church . . . "In 1790, about eight families moved into the area from the Friedens Church section, Shenandoah Valley, Virginia (near Harrisonburg). Among them were the Cupps, Bakers, . . ." The book does have specific birth and death dates on some individuals, it just varies. If you want me to check any of the above in more detail for you, just let me know. I've also been reading "The Stoner Brethren" by Richard R. Weber, and I recognize some of the surnames you've listed from that book also. Let me know if you're interested. Hope that helps! Cheryl Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 03:13:56 -0400 From: "Judy Florian" <cageycat@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [BRE] church logo question To: brethren@rootsweb.com Message-ID: ??? <e3afe72a0807010013i6350cfeblb94212a6ba18391b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Cheryl, Isn't Brothersvalley in Bedford Co?? If so, it's mid-central Pa in the mountains. Washington Co, Greene Co, and Fayette Co form SW Pa. If you have time, does the book mention surnames ANTHONY, LANE or LEHN, SEPTER?? I also have BAKER (Beckar) and BAIL but no exact dates except grown children by 1790. Judy On 6/30/08, wsiebrass@aol.com <wsiebrass@aol.com> wrote: > > Beverly, > ? > > I've been reading "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley Church of the Brethren 1762 1962" by H. Austin Cooper over the past week or so. Cooper specifically talks about the mustering of Brethren youth during the time of the Revolutionary War. He states that "Young Dunkers flocked to the Drill Grounds. . .", this despite "great wrath from the fathers of the Church and parents of many of the youth." According to Cooper, "The desire was so great amonth the young men of the settlement and the flame had been fanned so high by the Indian trepidations . . .that the Brothers Valley Militia leaped into existence." > > > > Cooper says, "At least nineteen sons of these staunch Brethren and Seventh Day Baptists in Stony Creek and Brotherton joined the Brothers Valley Militia in 1774." He states, "All of them followed General George Washington through his campaigns, and some of them stayed with him at Valley Forge. Several of them were promoted up through the ranks from privates to higher officers." > > > BrothersValley was in southwestern PA, while your ancestor was in southeastern PA, but I suspect the situation was similar.

I would like to add some historical points to the discussion on the DAR and those who joined based on ancestors who belonged to the Anabaptist denominations like the Brethren, Mennonites and Amish. First, I highly recommend you read the book “Brethren in the New Nation”, by Sappington. Although this book does not deal with the Revolutionary War period, it does go into explicit detail regarding how the Brethren dealt with the draft during the Civil War. The attitudes toward pacifism shown in Sappington’s book during the Civil War would also have been the same in the Revolutionary War. The non-enroller listings for Frederick County, MD, and the non-associator listings for Lancaster County, support this view. Militia lists are nothing more than name lists of those eligible for the militia. Most colonies had militia ordinances. For example Frederick County, VA had this ordinance in 1775. “Every Member of this County between sixteen & sixty years of Age, shall appear once every Month, at least, in the Field under Arms; & it is recommended to all to muster weekly for their Improvements”. There were exceptions, including clergy, and the ability to pay a substitute. The records from that period show that the militia was more like a rabble than an army. They fought well if you put them behind a stone wall or in the trees. But they typically cut and ran during the European style battles that typified those in the Revolutionary War. General James Wolfe of the French & Indian War called the militia “contemptible cowardly dogs”. John Hancock said, “To place any dependence upon Militia, is, resting upon a broken staff.” The Militia was typically a regional defense force. New England militia fought in the engagements in their area, southern militia in the south, etc. Their term of service was dictated by the farming cycle. The real fighting was done by the Continental Army. In regard to those that joined the Continental Army. Patriotism wasn’t always the driving motivation to join the army. Many signed up for the bonus due to economic hardship. As a French volunteer noted, “There is a hundred times more enthusiasm for this Revolution in any Paris café, than in all the colonies together.” Desertion was wide spread, and several mutinies occurred including one that required the disbanding of the 10th Pennsylvania regiment (the regiment of one of my supposed DAR ancestors!). In regard to Austin Cooper’s comments on Brethren in the militia. I believe Austin made the same assumption as many others in the DAR have made, and that is militia lists and militia members were one in the same. Just for the record, the engagements in the Brothersvalley area were Indian raids led by Simon Girty. In 1779, 250 militia were sent from York, Cumberland and Lancaster County to defend Bedford and Westmoreland County (Brothersvalley was part of Bedford County at that time). Girty and his Indians burned Hannastown in 1782. Bill Thomas

It struck me as odd when I was urged to join the DAR because my Metzler Mennonite ancestors in Pennsylvania at the time might have helped the cause. Perhaps the woman who asked me was equally surprised when I said I was not at all interested in joining... ................................ Valerie A. Metzler, M. A., C. A. Valerie Metzler Archivist/Historian 114 Ruskin Drive Altoona, Pennsylvania 16602 814 940 0493 fax 940 0493 vmah@keyconn.net On 01.07.2008, at 11:52, thomasflory@aol.com wrote: > > > It also strikes me as interesting that DAR?"Patriots" include not > only soldiers, statemen, etc but also individuals who paid a > substitute to take their place. I think that some might question > the patriotism of those who bought their way out of serving. >

Get's pretty confusing on PA counties.  According to "Handy Book for Genealogists" published by Everton Publishers, Bedford Co was formed in 1771, prior to that it was part of Cumberland Co.  Bedford Co at that time included the Somerset Co. area (until 1795), part of Cambria Co, Washington Co, etc. I prefer to show the present County designation where known as it seems to give the ordinary person a better clue of the geographical area where something happened.   Wayne Lucore --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Judy Florian <cageycat@gmail.com> wrote: From: Judy Florian <cageycat@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [BRE] church logo question To: brethren@rootsweb.com Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 1:13 AM Hi Cheryl, Isn't Brothersvalley in Bedford Co? If so, it's mid-central Pa in the mountains. Washington Co, Greene Co, and Fayette Co form SW Pa.

I concur with the comments about DAR being much pickier than they used to be, but IMHO sometimes they can?just be hard-headed. Several of my cousins got into DAR?on my 3GGF Jerg Zimmermann [aka Geoge Carpenter] but they are?rather irritated that?DAR would let them in only if they changed his wife from "Unknown First wife" to "Anna Schoettli" since DAR?"knows" that Anna was George's wife. We are all in agreement that Anna was George's wife, but not only does family oral history say that the two oldest sons were born in Europe to a first wife, we have the 1744 records where Jerg is emigrating from Switzerland with a wife and two children [unnamed], and also leaving from the same town the same year is Anna's step-father?with his wife, 5 children and 3 step-children [Anna had two sisters],?and further we have the probated will from one of George's?childless?sons leaving his estate to his "half-brother George" [jr], "half-brother John", and his full-brothers and full-sisters. Why?DAR refuses to accept "Unknown First wife" is beyond me. It also strikes me as interesting that DAR?"Patriots" include not only soldiers, statemen, etc but also individuals who paid a substitute to take their place. I think that some might question the patriotism of those who bought their way out of serving. George was German Reformed, and his granddaughter [myGGM] was baptized German Reformed as was her husband. These GGPs are buried at Beaver Creek Church of the Brethren, Rockingham Co, VA. They apparently became Brethren sometime after my GGF was shot through the eye as the CSA retreated from Gettysburg. He survived to marry and have three children. I suspect that getting shot in the head might have had something to do with his conversion to a peace church. ? Thom Flory -----Original Message----- From: Joyce Underwood <groovygrammy@insightbb.com> To: brethren@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:14 pm Subject: [BRE] DAR I just joined the DAR this year and yes they are very picky. I had to gather birth, marriage and death certificates, census, obits etc to get my application approved. I agree it's not easy to become a member. It took me a year!! Joyce in Indiana

I have been a member for about 7 years. I have enjoyed it, but it does take time. Though their website I have found several more patriots from Bedford Co,PA and Bucks Co,PA other than my George Steele. They are Sebastian Shoup and Phillip Ludwig Fluck. IF anyone on this list is looking for these names I will gladly help them. Their motto is God, Home and Country. Lynn Hilty Sewell

I am not surprised, Valerie. I, too, struggled with it but decided I would to preserve the lineage for the family. Diane Marie Kerchner -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Valerie A. Metzler Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:03 AM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] DAR It struck me as odd when I was urged to join the DAR because my Metzler Mennonite ancestors in Pennsylvania at the time might have helped the cause. Perhaps the woman who asked me was equally surprised when I said I was not at all interested in joining... ................................ Valerie A. Metzler, M. A., C. A. Valerie Metzler Archivist/Historian 114 Ruskin Drive Altoona, Pennsylvania 16602 814 940 0493 fax 940 0493 vmah@keyconn.net On 01.07.2008, at 11:52, thomasflory@aol.com wrote: > > > It also strikes me as interesting that DAR?"Patriots" include not > only soldiers, statemen, etc but also individuals who paid a > substitute to take their place. I think that some might question > the patriotism of those who bought their way out of serving. > ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Nat'l DAR website appears to be having server trouble today. Judy On 7/1/08, Terry Healy <tghealy@rocketmail.com> wrote: > If you are having trouble finding proof for a DAR line, each chapter and state has a Lineage Research Volunteer. If you need help finding a record in a specific county and can't travel there, the Lineage Research Volunteer in that community might be able to help. You can also ask assistance from the Chapter Registrar who can access information on people who have gone in on that same line through online resources as well as help you order copies of papers you need. On the National Website you can ask for them to look up a patriot. Hang in there and ask your local or state chapters for help. They love to work with anyone they can. > Terry Healy

Hello Judy, Brothers Valley is in Eastern Somerset County, on the eastern edge of the Allegheny Plateau, after you climb the Allegheny Mountain. Somerset County was taken out of Bedford County to which it formerly belonged. This happened, of course, nearly 200 years ago, but I no longer remember the date. Emmert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Florian" <cageycat@gmail.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] church logo question > Hi Cheryl, > > Isn't Brothersvalley in Bedford Co? If so, it's mid-central Pa in the > mountains. > > Washington Co, Greene Co, and Fayette Co form SW Pa. > > If you have time, does the book mention surnames ANTHONY, LANE or > LEHN, SEPTER? I also have BAKER (Beckar) and BAIL but no exact dates > except grown children by 1790. > > Judy > > On 6/30/08, wsiebrass@aol.com <wsiebrass@aol.com> wrote: >> >> Beverly, >> ? >> >> I've been reading "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley Church of the Brethren >> 1762 1962" by H. Austin Cooper over the past week or so. Cooper >> specifically talks about the mustering of Brethren youth during the time >> of the Revolutionary War. He states that "Young Dunkers flocked to the >> Drill Grounds. . .", this despite "great wrath from the fathers of the >> Church and parents of many of the youth." According to Cooper, "The >> desire was so great amonth the young men of the settlement and the flame >> had been fanned so high by the Indian trepidations . . .that the Brothers >> Valley Militia leaped into existence." >> >> >> >> Cooper says, "At least nineteen sons of these staunch Brethren and >> Seventh Day Baptists in Stony Creek and Brotherton joined the Brothers >> Valley Militia in 1774." He states, "All of them followed General George >> Washington through his campaigns, and some of them stayed with him at >> Valley Forge. Several of them were promoted up through the ranks from >> privates to higher officers." >> >> >> BrothersValley was in southwestern PA, while your ancestor was in >> southeastern PA, but I suspect the situation was similar. > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message