Bill, Thank you for responding about PA Dtuch Country. We have been to Lancaster County, but didn't think to check Bedford and Somerset Counties. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Thomas" <wbtst2@atlanticbb.net> To: "'BILL & CHRIS BURK'" <bburkiii@earthlink.net>; <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:07 PM Subject: RE: [BRE] Dunkard Church & Ulick BURK >I would include Bedford and Somerset County, PA in your search of PA Dutch > Country. Those were areas that mingled Scotch-Irish and German > immigrants, > who later moved onto Indiana. I also see that the Berkey name was spelled > Burkh in some old records. Burk may have originally been Berkey, which in > German was spelled Burcki. > > Bill Thomas > > -----Original Message----- > From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of BILL & CHRIS BURK > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:30 PM > To: brethren@rootsweb.com > Subject: [BRE] Dunkard Church & Ulick BURK > > My grandfather (1870-1957) wrote the following in his memoirs: > "We attended church occasionally at a Dundard church built upon land given > to them for church and burying ground by my grandfather Burk (Ulick), > however, so far as I know neither of my grandparents were members of any > religious denomination. These Dunkards were very fine citizens; loyal, > hard > working farmer men and women devoted to their religious customs. Men with > long beards and women always dressing in somber non-revealing costume with > ground touching skirts. The church seats were hard wooden benches and the > sermon serious and quite long. Joining church with them was in baptism by > total submersion, three times forward, in the name of the Father, Son, and > Holy Ghost. Many times I saw them break the ice on a nearby creek pool; > then preacher wading waist deep, led the new comminunicants." > > He continues, > "Grandfather Burk had the unusal given name of Ulick. He was of > Pennsylvania Dutch-Irish stock, who came from that state in the early > 1840's > to settle in Indiana, married my grandmother Sarah Nicholas, and died at > the > age of 39 (1849)." > > Ulick Burk's land was near Cottage Grove, Union County, Indiana. He and > his > family are buried in the Keffer Cemetery, which is just west of the Burk > property. > > My question is this: > I haven't been able to find any records of Ulick Burk in the Penssylvania > Dutch area of PA, nor have I been able to find much about him at all; so I > was wondering if he may have had some connection to the Brethern > (Dunkards) > in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I can pursue his > early records? > > Bill Burk > Albuquerque, NM > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 > 7:19 PM > > >

Dear Merle, Thank you so much for your prompt reply!! The information you sent was so helpful and now I have some more questions. We visited the area several years ago and obtained a copy of a map from the Liberty library that shows the location of the Burk property. Sarah Burk, nee Nicholas, married Joseph Swallow after Ulick died, so the name of Swallow on the adjacent lands is understandable. I will send the map in a separate email since attachments can not be added to list emails. I havc looked at your book online and was surprised to see the name Ulrey (Ulery). Quintilla Burk, nee Corbin, was descended from Phebe Ulrey (her mother) and Jacob Ulrey (her grandfather). I am beginning to see more and more connections. William H Burk was so devastated with death of Quintilla, that he left his son William E Burk (my grandfather) with Sarah Burk now married to Joseph Swallow and he grew up on the "ancestral farm". We visited the Keffer Cemetery and noticed the following names: Ulick Burk, so worn it can't be read. Quintilla Burk, 8 Nov 1852 - 8 Jun 1873 William H Burk, 29 Jul 1845 - 2 Feb 1904 Sarah Swallow, 30 Aug 1819 - 6 Dec 1886 There were (2) other stones - Leander and John Burk, b. Abt 1810 and d. close together (can't find my pictures of these grave markers). We have not been able to discover anything about these (2) boys and thought perhaps they were Ulick's brothers and he had moved their graves. Does this information connect any further with all you know? Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <cliff@rtkonline.com> To: "BILL & CHRIS BURK" <bburkiii@earthlink.net>; <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Dunkard Church & Ulick BURK > Thank you for the information. This is the area of the Four Mile Church > of the Brethren, the Keffer Cemetery is located on properties originally > owned by the early Brethren (Jacob Kingery Sr, and Thomas Huston Jr. - > nearby were Isaac Lawshe (toward College Corner) and Martin Kingery (north > by Cottage Grove), the cemetery is named after the family of George > Keffer, who lived across the road south of it, and as I remember, owned > the land) he had bought Jacob Kingery's land, after his death in 1811). > There was a later church building at Keffer Cemetery. That building is now > a barn about a half mile east of the site. > I do not recognize the name of Ulick Burk, although I do know Brethren > with the name of Burk (not here on the Four Mile). I will do some > checking. Cottage Grove is where the railroad crosses US27. Keffer > Cemetery is slightly more than a half mile south of US 27, on the road a > half mile east of Cottage Grove. The road going strait east from Cottage > Grove went to the Lower Four Mile Church - 2 miles away. > > Most of these Brethren (Dunker) families, here at the Four Mile, came from > Franklin County Virginia, but most of them, or their parents, had moved to > there from Pennsylvania (Franklin Co/Lancaster Co) and Maryland (Frederick > Co/Washington Co), starting about 1770. > > The Lower Four Mile Church building was some 2 1/2 miles east and north > of the Keffer Cemetery. Its building was built about 1845, but a major > migration to Iowa in 1855 eventually closed its doors, and the church at > Keffer Cemetery replaced it. The date we had on the building at Keffer > Cemetery was about 1870, and likely was the one attended by your > grandfather. > > You have given a much earlier date for the Church at Keffer Cemetery than > I had found (the cemetery was very early, but not the church building), > and I am beginning to wonder if the original Lower Four Mile Church > building might have been the one actually referred to for Ulick Burk, and > not the one here in Keffer Cemetery. Yes, many burials of the Lower Four > Mile people were here at Keffer Cemetery, many of the Lower Four Mile > families lived west of the church, north of the Keffer Cemetery. > I do not know who owned the land of the Lower Four Mile Church when it was > built. It was about 2 miles north of College Corner OH - and about 1/2 > mile inside Indiana, it was on the west bank of Little Four Mile Creek. > The creek comes west from the Huston Woods State Park in Ohio, going just > north of College Corner, then it turns north for some 8-10 miles, with > both the Lower and the Upper Four Mile Churches build on or close to it. > > Samuel Kingery lived just east of the creek. Martin Kingery lived north > of the church, and John Garver lived south of it. Elder Daniel Miller > lived just west of Martin. The original road south followed the west bank > of Little Four Mile Creek into College Corner. Several years after the > church was built, that road was closed, and the present "Nine Mile Road" > was placed at one mile from the state line (or about 1/2 mile west of the > church). If this is the case, your grandfather, being young, did not > catch the fact of the two different churches, especially since the earlier > one had closed. Yes, those benches were/are hard. > > There are considerable Quakers in the area also -one early church (Salem) > is about three mile or so from the Keffer Cemetery, just west of Cottage > Grove. > > One help to me would be if you knew the exact location of the farm of > Ulick Burk here in Union Co IN. > I've done a book on the Four Mile Church (named: The Virginia Settlement), > at the Union County Library site > - www.union-county.lib.in.us/GenwebVA4mile/Table%20of%20Contents%204M.htm > It includes maps and pictures. > I live here, at Boston IN, and my wife's grandfather, and great > grandfather were the Elders of the Four Mile Church, she is a > Miller/Lybrook/Kingery descendent. > > Merle C Rummel > > >> My grandfather (1870-1957) wrote the following in his memoirs: >> "We attended church occasionally at a Dundard church built upon land >> given to them for church and burying ground by my grandfather Burk >> (Ulick), however, so far as I know neither of my grandparents were >> members of any religious denomination. These Dunkards were very fine >> citizens; loyal, hard working farmer men and women devoted to their >> religious customs. Men with long beards and women always dressing in >> somber non-revealing costume with ground touching skirts. The church >> seats were hard wooden benches and the sermon serious and quite long. >> Joining church with them was in baptism by total submersion, three times >> forward, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Many times I >> saw them break the ice on a nearby creek pool; then preacher wading waist >> deep, led the new comminunicants." >> >> He continues, >> "Grandfather Burk had the unusal given name of Ulick. He was of >> Pennsylvania Dutch-Irish stock, who came from that state in the early >> 1840's to settle in Indiana, married my grandmother Sarah Nicholas, and >> died at the age of 39 (1849)." >> >> Ulick Burk's land was near Cottage Grove, Union County, Indiana. He and >> his family are buried in the Keffer Cemetery, which is just west of the >> Burk property. >> >> My question is this: >> I haven't been able to find any records of Ulick Burk in the Penssylvania >> Dutch area of PA, nor have I been able to find much about him at all; so >> I was wondering if he may have had some connection to the Brethern >> (Dunkards) in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I can >> pursue his early records? >> > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: > 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM > > >

Thank you for the information. This is the area of the Four Mile Church of the Brethren, the Keffer Cemetery is located on properties originally owned by the early Brethren (Jacob Kingery Sr, and Thomas Huston Jr. - nearby were Isaac Lawshe (toward College Corner) and Martin Kingery (north by Cottage Grove), the cemetery is named after the family of George Keffer, who lived across the road south of it, and as I remember, owned the land) he had bought Jacob Kingery's land, after his death in 1811). There was a later church building at Keffer Cemetery. That building is now a barn about a half mile east of the site. I do not recognize the name of Ulick Burk, although I do know Brethren with the name of Burk (not here on the Four Mile). I will do some checking. Cottage Grove is where the railroad crosses US27. Keffer Cemetery is slightly more than a half mile south of US 27, on the road a half mile east of Cottage Grove. The road going strait east from Cottage Grove went to the Lower Four Mile Church - 2 miles away. Most of these Brethren (Dunker) families, here at the Four Mile, came from Franklin County Virginia, but most of them, or their parents, had moved to there from Pennsylvania (Franklin Co/Lancaster Co) and Maryland (Frederick Co/Washington Co), starting about 1770. The Lower Four Mile Church building was some 2 1/2 miles east and north of the Keffer Cemetery. Its building was built about 1845, but a major migration to Iowa in 1855 eventually closed its doors, and the church at Keffer Cemetery replaced it. The date we had on the building at Keffer Cemetery was about 1870, and likely was the one attended by your grandfather. You have given a much earlier date for the Church at Keffer Cemetery than I had found (the cemetery was very early, but not the church building), and I am beginning to wonder if the original Lower Four Mile Church building might have been the one actually referred to for Ulick Burk, and not the one here in Keffer Cemetery. Yes, many burials of the Lower Four Mile people were here at Keffer Cemetery, many of the Lower Four Mile families lived west of the church, north of the Keffer Cemetery. I do not know who owned the land of the Lower Four Mile Church when it was built. It was about 2 miles north of College Corner OH - and about 1/2 mile inside Indiana, it was on the west bank of Little Four Mile Creek. The creek comes west from the Huston Woods State Park in Ohio, going just north of College Corner, then it turns north for some 8-10 miles, with both the Lower and the Upper Four Mile Churches build on or close to it. Samuel Kingery lived just east of the creek. Martin Kingery lived north of the church, and John Garver lived south of it. Elder Daniel Miller lived just west of Martin. The original road south followed the west bank of Little Four Mile Creek into College Corner. Several years after the church was built, that road was closed, and the present "Nine Mile Road" was placed at one mile from the state line (or about 1/2 mile west of the church). If this is the case, your grandfather, being young, did not catch the fact of the two different churches, especially since the earlier one had closed. Yes, those benches were/are hard. There are considerable Quakers in the area also -one early church (Salem) is about three mile or so from the Keffer Cemetery, just west of Cottage Grove. One help to me would be if you knew the exact location of the farm of Ulick Burk here in Union Co IN. I've done a book on the Four Mile Church (named: The Virginia Settlement), at the Union County Library site - www.union-county.lib.in.us/GenwebVA4mile/Table%20of%20Contents%204M.htm It includes maps and pictures. I live here, at Boston IN, and my wife's grandfather, and great grandfather were the Elders of the Four Mile Church, she is a Miller/Lybrook/Kingery descendent. Merle C Rummel > My grandfather (1870-1957) wrote the following in his memoirs: > "We attended church occasionally at a Dundard church built upon land given to them for church and burying ground by my grandfather Burk (Ulick), however, so far as I know neither of my grandparents were members of any religious denomination. These Dunkards were very fine citizens; loyal, hard working farmer men and women devoted to their religious customs. Men with long beards and women always dressing in somber non-revealing costume with ground touching skirts. The church seats were hard wooden benches and the sermon serious and quite long. Joining church with them was in baptism by total submersion, three times forward, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Many times I saw them break the ice on a nearby creek pool; then preacher wading waist deep, led the new comminunicants." > > He continues, > "Grandfather Burk had the unusal given name of Ulick. He was of Pennsylvania Dutch-Irish stock, who came from that state in the early 1840's to settle in Indiana, married my grandmother Sarah Nicholas, and died at the age of 39 (1849)." > > Ulick Burk's land was near Cottage Grove, Union County, Indiana. He and his family are buried in the Keffer Cemetery, which is just west of the Burk property. > > My question is this: > I haven't been able to find any records of Ulick Burk in the Penssylvania Dutch area of PA, nor have I been able to find much about him at all; so I was wondering if he may have had some connection to the Brethern (Dunkards) in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I can pursue his early records? >

I would include Bedford and Somerset County, PA in your search of PA Dutch Country. Those were areas that mingled Scotch-Irish and German immigrants, who later moved onto Indiana. I also see that the Berkey name was spelled Burkh in some old records. Burk may have originally been Berkey, which in German was spelled Burcki. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of BILL & CHRIS BURK Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:30 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRE] Dunkard Church & Ulick BURK My grandfather (1870-1957) wrote the following in his memoirs: "We attended church occasionally at a Dundard church built upon land given to them for church and burying ground by my grandfather Burk (Ulick), however, so far as I know neither of my grandparents were members of any religious denomination. These Dunkards were very fine citizens; loyal, hard working farmer men and women devoted to their religious customs. Men with long beards and women always dressing in somber non-revealing costume with ground touching skirts. The church seats were hard wooden benches and the sermon serious and quite long. Joining church with them was in baptism by total submersion, three times forward, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Many times I saw them break the ice on a nearby creek pool; then preacher wading waist deep, led the new comminunicants." He continues, "Grandfather Burk had the unusal given name of Ulick. He was of Pennsylvania Dutch-Irish stock, who came from that state in the early 1840's to settle in Indiana, married my grandmother Sarah Nicholas, and died at the age of 39 (1849)." Ulick Burk's land was near Cottage Grove, Union County, Indiana. He and his family are buried in the Keffer Cemetery, which is just west of the Burk property. My question is this: I haven't been able to find any records of Ulick Burk in the Penssylvania Dutch area of PA, nor have I been able to find much about him at all; so I was wondering if he may have had some connection to the Brethern (Dunkards) in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I can pursue his early records? Bill Burk Albuquerque, NM ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Catherine Miller Overholser's ancestry is at:   http://www.frontierfamilies.net/Family/Miller/C6/E2CKM.htm

My grandfather (1870-1957) wrote the following in his memoirs: "We attended church occasionally at a Dundard church built upon land given to them for church and burying ground by my grandfather Burk (Ulick), however, so far as I know neither of my grandparents were members of any religious denomination. These Dunkards were very fine citizens; loyal, hard working farmer men and women devoted to their religious customs. Men with long beards and women always dressing in somber non-revealing costume with ground touching skirts. The church seats were hard wooden benches and the sermon serious and quite long. Joining church with them was in baptism by total submersion, three times forward, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Many times I saw them break the ice on a nearby creek pool; then preacher wading waist deep, led the new comminunicants." He continues, "Grandfather Burk had the unusal given name of Ulick. He was of Pennsylvania Dutch-Irish stock, who came from that state in the early 1840's to settle in Indiana, married my grandmother Sarah Nicholas, and died at the age of 39 (1849)." Ulick Burk's land was near Cottage Grove, Union County, Indiana. He and his family are buried in the Keffer Cemetery, which is just west of the Burk property. My question is this: I haven't been able to find any records of Ulick Burk in the Penssylvania Dutch area of PA, nor have I been able to find much about him at all; so I was wondering if he may have had some connection to the Brethern (Dunkards) in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I can pursue his early records? Bill Burk Albuquerque, NM

Hello Everyone, I am trying to figure out an old note to myself which mentions the following Saken Primitive Baptist Church in the Trammel Creek area of Allen County, Kentucky time period about 1804 Has anyone heard of a Saken Primitive Baptist Church in the Trammel Creek area of Allen County, Kentucky? I am looking to confirm it existed, when it was created, and possibly were the congregation came from originally. Thank You, Debbie Freeman

One of the strengths (and sometimes weaknesses) of the Brethren is the balance or the lack of balance between Pietism and Anabaptism. The early Brethren borrowed from both systems of thought. They realized the necessity of a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. They also realized there was a need for structure in their religious lives. The Pietists emphasized the personal qualities of our relationship with God. The Anabaptist realized the need of community among believers. During the past 300 years there have been swings from one side to the other. In the early days there was a strong dose of Pietism, later Anabaptism became dominant. The Brethren have suffered when they lost their balance. When every man did what was right in his own eyes, the community suffered. When the community framed miiniscule rules the personal relationship was threatened. There were times that the Brethren inched towards legalism, but there were other times and places where the Brethren majored in the mystical and otherworldly. A wise balance between the two systems gave the Brethren the best of both. When unbalanced there were problems. Milton Cook ____________________________________________________________ Beauty Advice Just Got a Makeover Read reviews about the beauty products you have always wanted to try http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7Uzus8GjTaeWdHhBy5QJk3xuXrwAxkAgyOyBxkhOOwlY01y/

yes, Jane - you are basically right - and minister Thomas Miller, from the Four Mile (and the Ladoga Churches) was one! What I meant by that statement was that to be in the Brethren Church Denomination, at the time of the Civil War, was to accepted the Annual Meeting and its decisions, and Annual Meeting had taken a stand against much of the Pietist belief. Now this also depends on what was Pietism - in its practical, everyday application - and that we do not know much about. [I meant what I said about translating the Berleberg Bible - it has to be mostly Pietist Commentary.] I have been trying to find out what Pietism really meant, and what I am finding is that it was somewhat different than what the Brethren had become. I still have to go back to Dr Mallott's statement in class, "What happened to the Brethren, during the Revolution? They changed!" He did not give an answer. I think I have found an answer in these couple church conflicts of 1790s (Carolina) and 1820s (Kentucky) and their results - Annual Meeting kicked them out! I have to bring up one other aspect of the times - back then, the Brethren believed in what they called "Unanimity". This was a form of practice in the guidance.of the Holy Spirit. When a matter was brought to discussion of the Council (Annual Meeting, or local church), a vote could only be accepted if it was Unaniimous. The Holy Spirit would not give different answers to two different people. So a procedure evolved: After prayer and discussion, a vote was taken. If it was not unanimous, the body would go back to prayer, because someone, or more, did not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit (no discussion - except after experiencing Bro INH Beam, at Annual Meeting - I can understand some statements, that the prayer itself became a discussion or argument! "Lord, You Know that - "). The matter then would be voted on a second time. If a unanimous decision was not yet reached. the matter was sent back to the next council, with everyone encouraged to pray for the Lord's Guidance on the matter. In some cases, from church minutes (or even Annual Meeting), the unanimous decision was not reached for several years. In some cases, one vote was on the one side, and everyone else was on the other, but after several years, the unanimous decision was in favor of the original one vote. In other cases, the matter would drag on for several years, then it would no longer be brought up. One such, was the use of musical instruments in the church. It must have become so well accepted in most churches, that it was no longer brought for discussion. Sometimes, the answer was for each church to determine its own answer. In those early times, the Frontier Brethren were not abiding by the Unanimous Decision of Annual Meeting, and when they brought up opposition, it was too late (even though they were not present at the time of the discussion -being far away -down south, or out west), Annual Meeting had already made its Unanimous Decision. I do enjoy the "boy preacher" of the Lost River Church in Orange County Indiana (Joseph Hostetler). In 1821, he brought up to Annual Meeting (in Ohio), that those being baptized by single immersion were going to heaven, just as truly as those baptized by the Brethren "trine immersion". His point was that these were Christians, and could be Brethren Church members. Annual Meeting did agree, although they stipulated that the Brethren method was trine immersion. In 1826, the Elders (the Elders Body) brought a reversal to this decision at Annual Meeting. Membership could only be by trine immersion. This latter is about the time that the Elders acted against Elder Adam Hostetler (uncle of Joseph, living then at the Beech Creek Church, Shelby Co KY), and he was put on the Ban (with Elder Peter Han of the Hinkston Creek Church, Nicholas Co KY), essentially over the Revival in Kentucky. All the churches of the Kentucky/Indiana area were lost to the Brethren. After the ban, Elder Adam Hostetler moved up to Clark Co IN (maybe a dozen miles from Lost River) and is buried at the Olive Branch Cemetery (a Brethren Church that about this time went Disciples of Christ). No, we don't know much about the Pietists - except for their early history in Germany. And I have to observe, today the Methodists are more nearly the Pietism I think I have found in Kentucky, than are the Brethren. (As William Thomas points out - John Wesley spent a year at Herrnhut in Germany, among the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf, their leader, and went back to England with a "Method of Christianity" - Methodism.) Merle > > What I have found regarding the Brethren in Missouri during this period differs from your statement that all the Brethren of the Civil War period were Annual Meeting Brethren. The majority of the early Brethren in Missouri prior to 1865 were tied to the Far Western Brethren under the leadership of George Wolfe and the Mill Creek Brethren near Liberty, Adams County, Illinois. > > It is also true that there were Brethren in Missouri at this time from mostly the southern states of Virginia, the Carolinas, Kentucky and Tennessee. Other Brethren had arrived here from Pennsylvania, Maryland, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Thus, the Missouri Brethren were representative of many of the existing Brethren groups prior to the Civil War. > > The upheaval of war on the Western Front early in 1861 created a battleground involving all residents of Missouri whether they were Brethren or not. A number of Brethren left Missouri before the end of 1861 either because of death threats or loss of family members. Jane Davis. >

I have identified seven Mennonite ancestor's that served in the Civil War. They either never returned alive or left the church, with one possible exception. Curiously, one veteran had his funeral service at a Brethren meeting house, but led by Mennonite pastors who were relatives. His wife's family was Brethren. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 5:49 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Pacifists and non agression Dan, Your story reminded me of my gggrandfather George Garst (1800-1886) of Salem, Virginia. He was Brethren and had eight sons. Two died before the Civil War was started. Two I have no record of. Two fled to (and hid out) in Macoupin County, Illinois, while the war was being fought, returning to Virginia after the war was over. Two stayed back in Virginia and fought for the Confederacy. After the war was over, one of those who fought for the Confederacy, moved permanently to Sangamon County, Illinois. Only one stuck it out in Virginia. Based on published Garst family letters back and forth between the south and the north during the 1860s, not one of the brothers was judged by their father for their actions. Sixteen of these wartime letters were compiled into a commemorative book, "Some Old Letters," by Floyd and Kathryn Garst Mason, of Bridgewater, Virginia, in 2005. The letters are filled with family love transcending the events of the Civil War. Equally touching about the Garst family at the time of the Civil War are the letters published and illustrated in Geraldine Plunkett's children's book, "Nathan's Secret." Kathryn, Geraldine, and I are third-cousin gggrandchildren of George and Catharine Markey Garst. Dwayne Wrightsman ----- Original Message ----- From: <Cookerlp@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Pacifists and non agression > I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I do think this can be > discussed > from a genealogical point of view. I really doesn't matter what we think > is > right or wrong at this point, but the historical facts are important...at > least > to me. Where my ancestors drew the line dividing patriotism from church > doctrine without judging them has been and always will be important to me. > I will > not argue the point of what was right or wrong now or then. > Jacob Shutt in Sangamon Co., Illinois disowned his son Micajah when he > ran > away to join the Union forces during the civil war. I am descended from > Jacob's daughter Elizabeth Jane Shutt who married William Foster. > My Gr gr grandfather Samuel Riner (Brethren preacher) of Monroe Co., West > Virginia was listed in a militia, but moved his family to Indiana during > the > Civil War. At least 2 of his brothers were well known decorated > Confederate > soldiers. Still looking for who their ties were in Indiana and proof of > where they > went in Indiana. Some Riner descendants were excluded from service in WW1 > and > WWII and others served. > Later, > Dan Cook > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dan, Your story reminded me of my gggrandfather George Garst (1800-1886) of Salem, Virginia. He was Brethren and had eight sons. Two died before the Civil War was started. Two I have no record of. Two fled to (and hid out) in Macoupin County, Illinois, while the war was being fought, returning to Virginia after the war was over. Two stayed back in Virginia and fought for the Confederacy. After the war was over, one of those who fought for the Confederacy, moved permanently to Sangamon County, Illinois. Only one stuck it out in Virginia. Based on published Garst family letters back and forth between the south and the north during the 1860s, not one of the brothers was judged by their father for their actions. Sixteen of these wartime letters were compiled into a commemorative book, "Some Old Letters," by Floyd and Kathryn Garst Mason, of Bridgewater, Virginia, in 2005. The letters are filled with family love transcending the events of the Civil War. Equally touching about the Garst family at the time of the Civil War are the letters published and illustrated in Geraldine Plunkett's children's book, "Nathan's Secret." Kathryn, Geraldine, and I are third-cousin gggrandchildren of George and Catharine Markey Garst. Dwayne Wrightsman ----- Original Message ----- From: <Cookerlp@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Pacifists and non agression > I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I do think this can be > discussed > from a genealogical point of view. I really doesn't matter what we think > is > right or wrong at this point, but the historical facts are important...at > least > to me. Where my ancestors drew the line dividing patriotism from church > doctrine without judging them has been and always will be important to me. > I will > not argue the point of what was right or wrong now or then. > Jacob Shutt in Sangamon Co., Illinois disowned his son Micajah when he > ran > away to join the Union forces during the civil war. I am descended from > Jacob's daughter Elizabeth Jane Shutt who married William Foster. > My Gr gr grandfather Samuel Riner (Brethren preacher) of Monroe Co., West > Virginia was listed in a militia, but moved his family to Indiana during > the > Civil War. At least 2 of his brothers were well known decorated > Confederate > soldiers. Still looking for who their ties were in Indiana and proof of > where they > went in Indiana. Some Riner descendants were excluded from service in WW1 > and > WWII and others served. > Later, > Dan Cook > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wonderful! I'm off to google now. Beverly **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (www.tourtracker.com ?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I do think this can be discussed from a genealogical point of view. I really doesn't matter what we think is right or wrong at this point, but the historical facts are important...at least to me. Where my ancestors drew the line dividing patriotism from church doctrine without judging them has been and always will be important to me. I will not argue the point of what was right or wrong now or then. Jacob Shutt in Sangamon Co., Illinois disowned his son Micajah when he ran away to join the Union forces during the civil war. I am descended from Jacob's daughter Elizabeth Jane Shutt who married William Foster. My Gr gr grandfather Samuel Riner (Brethren preacher) of Monroe Co., West Virginia was listed in a militia, but moved his family to Indiana during the Civil War. At least 2 of his brothers were well known decorated Confederate soldiers. Still looking for who their ties were in Indiana and proof of where they went in Indiana. Some Riner descendants were excluded from service in WW1 and WWII and others served. Later, Dan Cook ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

A couple follow-up items on the subject discussion regarding Brethren pacifism and pietism. I went back and took a look at Durnbaugh's "Brethren in Colonial America". He talks about Brethren pacifism during the Revolutionary War, including Quaker, Mennonite and Moravian pacifism in general terms as opposed to personal specifics found in Sappington. I should note that Moravian's evolved out of pietism. He also has specifics in regard to the Annual Meeting dealing with the loyalty oath. He notes the petition by Mennonites and German Baptists to the Pennsylvania General Assembly in 1775 regarding their pacifist beliefs. He includes a draft law from North Carolina, dated 1778, that specifically dealt with the Moravians, Mennonites, Quakers and Dunkers. He also includes a letter written in 1784 by a John Frederick Reichel, a Moravian. Reichel said this: Pennsylvania is full of Quakers, also of various kinds of Baptists, and other denominations who hold that they dare not bear arms with a good conscience. All of these groups have remained true to their principles from the beginning until end. No Dunker, no Quaker took up arms." After the word Dunker Durnbaugh has in brackets "Taufer", which was the German word for an Anabaptist. This letter appears to be a translation (by Durnbuagh?) The letter specifically mentions the Mennonites, so the use of "Taufer" arguably applies to all the Anabaptists, which included the Amish and Brethren. The Moravian's, (a pietism denomination) were generally pacifist according to Durnbaugh, but there were exceptions. One other note. John Wesley who founded Methodism, another form of pietism, was greatly influenced by the Moravians. Wesley was not a pacifist and was both a loyal subject to King George III and supporter of the British cause. Bill Thomas

Dwayne, Right On!! Emmert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <dwayne55@comcast.net> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] DAR/Anabaptists >A couple of additional points: First, in Pennsylvania, each township had > one or more companies in the militia, each company organized by the > "neighborhood" where one lived. Second, one did not need to sign up for > the > militia as every adult male through age 53 was automatically listed in his > local militia. Being on the local militia list served as a census of the > neighborhood, much like the local tax list. There was no "signing up." > One > had no choice. If one didn't want to attend musters, he had the choice of > finding a substitute and/or paying fines. In the Pennsylvania Archives > are > pages and pages of militia men who paid fines instead of participating. > Many if not most of the Lancaster County Brethren were on these lists of > men > who paid fines for missing musters. These are men whom historically have > been granted patriot status by the DAR. I have cousins who are members of > the DAR whose "patriot" ancestors never attended a single muster, let > alone > fire a shot. They were Brethren farmers who paid their fines. > > Dwayne Wrightsman > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill & Lynn Sewell" <lbsewell@frontiernet.net> > To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [BRE] DAR/Anabaptists > > >>From a historical view point, many Brethren were in the militias not >>because > they supported the war, but to protect their land during the Am. > Revolution. > Also Pa had fines for those who did not sign up for the militias. Each > county had its own militia. Most Germans already had long rifles, which > were used for hunting game. They did not have uniforms which as pictured > in > so many books and many did not even fire a shot during the Rev. Lynn > Hilty > Sewell > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Beverly, Yes I am editor of a six volume series on the Unionist in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. You can pull this up by Googling, either my name or the Unionists ... Emmert ----- Original Message ----- From: <Bb43@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] church logo question > Thank you Emmert. > > Are you the author of Allegheny Passage? I periodically look for it on > used > book listings since it is out of print. Someday, maybe. People who > bought it > seem to be holding on to it. > > Have you written about the Civil War period? If so, could you give title > and > publication info? > > Beverly > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The name of the church "EdwardsE River", is of interest to me as I am researching the Edwards family that eventially settled in Morgan County. Any information you might have on the Edwards family and/or how the church got its name would be appreciated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Scism" <Jeff@ibssg.org> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Carolina Churches - becoming Predestinarian Baptists > Merle mentions Casper Miller and his son Adam. > > I am descended from a John Miller family of Washington District, NC, > later Carter Co. Tennessee. John and his many sons were combatants in > the Revolution. Members of Sevier's 'over the hill' contingent. They are > reported as blacksmiths at the 'shelving rock' on Little Doe River, at > Crab Orchard. This family was out of Pennsylvania. > > This family returned to Crab Orchard when hostilities ceased, but by > 1820 were Regular Baptists (AKA Primitive Baptists) and split between > Kentucky and Indiana. George Miller, a son of John took his family to > Indiana, and by 1820 most were in Montgomery county. The Sugar Creek > Congregation of Regular Baptists was theirs. Before 1834 the > congregation was ready to branch out, and settlements in Mercer County, > Illinois were available. The Millers and several other related families > were the first to settle in Millersburg, in Mercer County, forming the > Edwards River Congregation. > > > "EDWARDS RIVER > > The first record of The Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ, of > Edwards River, is the minutes of a meeting of the members, held at the > house of George Miller, on Edwards River, July 21, 1838, of which > meeting Jeremiah Swofford was chosen moderator, and Abraham Miller Jr., > clerk. This meeting was held within the present limits of Perryton > township. Meetings were held in the private houses of members until a > meeting held in the house of Gabriel M. Barkley, in Farlow's Grove (now > in Preemption township), December 22, 1838, the next regular meeting was > appointed at the school house in Sugar Grove (now Perryton township). > March 23, 1839, they voted to appeal to Henderson Church for letters of > dismission and help to constitute them into a separate church. Their > prayer was granted, and the Edwards River church was constituted June > 29, 1839, by Elders Joseph Jones, Charles Vandeveer, and Hiram Bowman. > The members at the constitution were: Joseph and Rebecca Jones; George, > Mary Ann, and Julia Ann Miller; Abraham Miller, Jr.; John and Sarah > Farlow; Roswell and Mehitable Stanard; Youngs Green; Michael Donahoo; > Gabriel M. and Hannah R. Barkley; Mary Miller; and Susannah Shelley. > Gabriel M. Barkley was chosen first deacon of the church, and Abraham > Miller Jr., first clerk. Elder Joseph Jones was the first moderator and > pastor. > > The records of New Hope Church for May 1839 show that a request was > received from the brethren of the arm of Henderson Church, delivered by > brethren Joseph Jones and John Farlow, and agreed to send brethren the > Saturday before the fifth Sunday in June, Charles Vandeveer, Peter > Butler, John Riggs, and James Kelsey. > > The Edwards River Church united with and remained a member of the Spoon > River Association during its existence. > > The first delegation from this church was Joseph Jones, Gabriel M. > Barkley, George Miller, John Farlow, and Abraham Miller Jr., who were > appointed to sit in council with and constitute a church at William > Denison's. It was agreed at this time (1839) to hold meetings one-half > the time at Sugar Grove and one-half the time at Farlow's Grove. > > The last regular meeting of this church was held October 9, 1847, when, > "after consultation and due deliberation being had the church and > council thought it expedient to letter each other out and so become > dissolved, inasmuch as the members are moving away out of the bounds of > this church." Most of these members shortly thereafter removed to Oregon > territory. > > source: > http://www.carthage.lib.il.us/community/churches/primbap/FamHist- > Mercer.html > > (History of Mercer County, E. H. Hill & Co., Publishers, Chicago, > Illinois, 1882) > Page 306" > > > > > > The area of Edwards River was built up and by 1847 the Congregation > was being dissolved, and the membership moved, via the Coon-Miller wagon > train, to Linn County, Oregon, whereas they joined the Little Bethel > Church of Regular Predestinarian Baptists, which was under Rev. Joseph > Warren Turnage, of Clay County, Missouri, the town was once again known > as Millersburg, being established on the land of George Miller, who > donated a portion of his land for the Little Bethel Church and > Cemetery, and is currently a part of Albany, Oregon. Abraham Miller, Jr. > a son of George Miller, married the widow of Rev. Turnage, Elizabeth > Crowley Dagley, and took over the Congregation. His previous wife, > Julia Ann Morgan, of Pennsylvania, died shortly after arriving in > Oregon. The last of the Millers to leave Illinois and move to Oregon was > Isaac Newton Miller, a brother of George Miller. He departed in 1851. > The people who had bought the land from the Edwards River > Congregational, were apparently very happy to see the "strange" people go. > > > SOURCE: Early Memories, Written by Irene Clark Davis for her > sister, Ada E. Brown > > "Now it is the spring of 1848 and Father moved to Sugar Grove. So does > Uncle Gibbs and Uncle Gabriel. At the Grove we find seven Miller > families. Father bought of a man by the name of Crull. Uncle Gibbs > bought Mr. Griswald's farm. Uncle Gabriel rented a place. Uncle Ransom > soon came to be followed by Lewis and Ware Long. The neighborhood > entirely changed in the space of two years. Not a Miller left. Four > Miller brothers had come to the Grove from some western part of the > state, many years before. Some of them had planted fruit trees that were > now bearing. In those days grafting and budding were not known and the > seedling is slow to bear, so I conclude they had been there 15 or 20 > years. Their several names were Abraham, Isaac, John, and George. All > good religious people. Had a mill for lumber, grist mill, a log house > for school and church. > > "In 1850 all the elderly ones except Isaac Miller and his family left > for Oregon. In 1851 Isaac left, leaving no one by the name of Miller. > The Grove now began to be a different place. People from eastern states > moved in. I heard Ma tell Pa that she liked the new neighbors better > than the old ones. They were so different, (more sociable, I suppose) > such as Ma had always associated with." > > Jeff Scism, IBSSG > > > > > Merle C Rummel wrote: >> Thanks much - >> >> This is a start on what needs to be done on these known Brethren in the >> Carolinas. I will save this in my files, with some of the previous >> information on these churches and families. I am using them to assist >> in the Kentucky Migration - but this is a lead on those Brethren >> families who remained in the Carolinas. I still want to know more about >> the Crane Creek Church (just found a Brethren Casper Miller, who lived >> at Salisbury, his son Adam moved to Washington Co IN, 1824). >> >> Roger Sappington presented what he could find out on the Carolina >> churches in his History of the Brethren in North Carolina. This is the >> next step, because there is more information like this out there. I'm >> finding in Kentucky that the main way to learn of these churches which >> have disappeared, is to trace the families. And that is what we are >> doing in our family genealogies. That is what I've been doing with >> these Kentucky families -where they came from. >> >> I've told myself I'm taking a break on the work on the Kentucky Book >> (some of these "new" families need more research), maybe I'll pull >> together a start on these Carolina churches (my daughter is not going to >> be happy). >> >> I do have another interest here, included in your answer. Who is this >> Christopher Guise? There is a major frontiersman of western >> Pennsylvania, Christopher Gist. This Christopher Gist had a >> "plantation" near Uniontown PA. He led General Braddock's army toward >> Fort Duquesne (1755). He was an early explorer into Ohio. He moved >> south, presumably to Georgia. He signed the petition from Fort >> Redstone, with the Brethren of Brothers Valley and Washington Co PA. I >> picked up a copy of his "Journals", at Fort Necessity last summer (and >> haven't ready it yet). Is there a connection of these two men? or are >> they the same man? Was Christopher Gist Brethren? >> >> The Brethren Encyclopedia was written what 30 years ago. I know I wrote >> on what I knew then, and some of that has since proven to be incorrect. >> I'm finding the same true about what others wrote. And there is a lot >> more The 4th Volume was to correct these, but I admit, I didn't send >> anything more in, partially because I'm still finding out new things. >> But it is like Jeff Bach just reminded me - at some point, we have to >> present what we know now. >> >> Merle C Rummel >> >> >>> There were three Brethren churches west of the Catawba River. The >>> earliest >>> church, Killians Meeting House, later became regular Baptist and was >>> located >>> in eastern Lincoln County. It began in the middle 1750's with >>> Christopher >>> Guise (variously spelled) and Abraham Earhard as ministers. Mountain >>> View >>> Baptist has an older cemetery which is the remnants of Lebanon Lutheran >>> Church. Lebanon was a later Lutheran church of Killians Meeting House. >>> Evidence suggests that Killians Meeting House was originally a union >>> church >>> of Lutheran, Reformed, and Brethren. Rev. Lemuel Saunders, apparently a >>> regular Baptist, came to minister to the remains of the Brethren at >>> Killians >>> Meeting House after the American Revolution. Many Brethren moved away >>> just >>> before, during and after the Revolution. Some were Tories and Neutrals >>> and >>> some just moved. >>> >>> Two other Brethren churches located in western Lincoln and western >>> Catawba >>> County were both named Thessalonica. Their ministers were Henry Rhodes >>> and >>> Lorentz Linhardt. I believe that members of the Thessalonica located >>> in >>> present western Lincoln County joined Mt. Zion Baptist Church near >>> present >>> Cherryville in present Gaston County. Many of the Catawba County >>> members of >>> Thessalonica, the Millers and Bakers, moved to Cape Girardeau Missouri >>> where >>> Peter Baker established a Brethren congregation around 1800, the >>> Whitewater >>> congregation. They intermingled with the Rowan and Uwarrhi (spelling) >>> Hendricks. The Catawba County Thessalonica Church also became regular >>> Baptist Church. >>> >>> The two Thessalonica Brethren churches were served by Henry Rhodes and >>> Lorentz Linhardt. Both died in early 1830's and apparently no other >>> Brethren ministers served these congregations. Members apparently then >>> joined regular Baptist churches. >>> >>> More research needs to be done on these churches. I have seen no >>> evidence >>> that the Brethren Church even recognizes Linhardt and Rhodes as >>> ministers. >>> I have primary documentation that they were Dunker/Tunker ministers. >>> >>> I am not at all certain about the Rowan and Stanley County, NC churches. >>> >>> Hope this helps, >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------ >> Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN >> ------------------------ >> Support Our Sponsoring Agency >> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >> For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com >> ------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > -- > > > Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG > ~~ > > "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than > I do, and none has greater confidence in its effect towards supporting > free and good government." > > -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Trustees for the Lottery of East Tennessee > College, 6 May 1810) > > Reference: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Washington, ed., vol. 5 (521) > > > > Visit http://ibssg.org/blacksheep/ > For the Intl. Blacksheep Society of Genealogists website > > Putnam County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inputnam/ > Montgomery County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/ > Fountain County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/infountain/ > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.2/1523 - Release Date: 6/28/2008 > 7:00 AM >

" .....would the Brethren have simply stood by and watched their family and friends be slaughtered? If you read the details of the famous Hochstetler Indian massacre in Berks County during the French & Indian War that is exactly what happened. Jacob would not fire his weapon, resulting in the death of two children and his wife as well as the capture of himself and two other children. Jacob and his family were Amish. Pacifism was also the standard for the Early Christian Church. That didn't change until the fourth Century, after Constantine's conversion. The Church's position on pacifism changed with the onslaught of barbarian invaders, who were pillaging the country and burning churches. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Snowden Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 12:43 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Pietists & Anabaptists I, too, have had some difficulty with the use of the terms Pietists and Anabaptists--and would enjoy a good explanation. Recently I spent some time with a Brethren couple in Indiana--whom Merle knows--and left with much confusion over his belief in pacifism. He, seeming like others responding on this forum, take a certain pride in being a pacifist and I wonder how they view the aggressors of the world. Yesterday we learned that Daniel Boone killed only three indians--but on the Ohio frontier would the Brethren have simply stood by and watched their family and friends be slaughtered? This is a serious question, not solicitous nor trying to provoke a response. Ron Snowden Orem, Utah ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I understand the point Merle is making, but to get technical, Pietism, Anabaptism, and pacifism are not necessarily connected. The original Anabaptists were far from being pacifists, with the Munster incident (16th century) an example. Munster was a town taken over by Anabaptists, resulting in a military siege. The Mennonite's and their offshoot the Amish instituted pacifism into the picture. The English Baptists were also influenced by Anabaptist theology, but they also were far not pacifists. Anyway, the lengthy list of Brethren names in the non-associator/non-enroller lists show that significant numbers of Brethren were pacifists during the Revolution. Many of the early Brethren were also Mennonite/Amish converts. I read that one reason the Northkill Berks County Amish settlement moved to Somerset County, was to get away from the Dunkard influence. That influx of Mennonite/Amish may also be one of the reasons for the demise of the pietism the Merle speaks of. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of winter dellenbach Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:58 AM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRE] Pietists & Anabaptists Merle - thank you for your info. re: Pietistism, Anabaptism," Annual Meeting Brethren" and the "Pietist/Far West Brethren". I saw the subject line, DAR and did not read some of the earlier emails thru lack of time. But now I read your interesting review of Church and war history. My family was involved with Ephrata and also around the Far West Brethren in Montgomery Co. OH, so I am interested in what you had to say - that some move to KY or OH before Annual meetings started was something I hadn't considered before. I would like to understand the difference between Anabaptism and Pietism. I have read explanations, but particularly with pietism, the explanations have been abstract and non-specific and I never really understood. Could you simply explain the specifc, broad points of each? I would really appreciate it. winter On Jul 2, 2008, at 4:52 AM, Merle C Rummel wrote: > >> >> First, I highly recommend you read the book "Brethren in the New >> Nation", by >> Sappington. Although this book does not deal with the >> Revolutionary War >> period, it does go into explicit detail regarding how the Brethren >> dealt >> with the draft during the Civil War. The attitudes toward pacifism >> shown in >> Sappington's book during the Civil War would also have been the >> same in the >> Revolutionary War. The non-enroller listings for Frederick County, >> MD, and >> the non-associator listings for Lancaster County, support this view. >> >> > > Let me complicate the picture - > > I took the Conscientious Objector stand during the Korean War, but my > son went into the Marines - so I have some sympathy with both sides - > > In this research I've been doing on the Early Brethren in Kentucky - > the > "Frontier Brethren" - one of the observations I am making was that > these > Brethren held strongly to the Pietist origin of our church - and there > were differences. Dr Dale Brown, who taught the Pietism Course at > Bethany Seminary, made the point strong that we Brethren today do not > know what Pietism was. What he taught was the history of the > beginnings > - and he admitted that there were no records, except for Ephrata (a > Radical Pietism), to show what it meant in the life of the individual > and the church. > > The Brethren Church of today comes out of the Brethren of eastern > Pennsylvania and Maryland (and slightly in Virginia, the Brethren had > only been in the Valley a couple years before the war started) who > survived the persecution of the Revolutionary period. Our stand was > based both on the Bible -the commandment - "Thou shalt not kill." (The > Hebrew word is "ratasch" - which means to kill a person -as opposed to > "sachat" -which means to kill an animal. - so to explain it as "no > murder" is incorrect!) and through our promise ("A Dunker's word is as > good as his bond!") of loyalty to the King. We appreciated the > opportunity the King gave, to permit us to live in this peaceful land, > after the devastations suffered in the Palatinate during the wars of > Europe. The Sons of Liberty, proponents of the Revolution, but not a > majority of the population, terrorized those who stood in opposition > to > them. The Brethren, and Mennonites and Amish (fellow Anabaptists), > were > persecuted - some severely. The church "withdrew" into community with > these others also suffering for their stand. Shall I say, we hid out > together. > > The early Brethren were nearly opposite. The Germantown Church (mother > church) was reported to pray and sing so loud, that it hurt your ears, > clear down the street (Durnbaugh). Many a Brethren home became a > center > of evangelism to their neighbors. Pietism was concerned with a revival > of the individual, to bring them to a closer relationship to Jesus. > Creeds and practices hardly mattered. The original pietism spread > through all the churches of Germany. There were only two denominations > to directly result out of the movement, and the Brethren are one - and > even his mentor, Hochmann von Hochenau, was upset about what Alexander > Mack had done. > > As such, Dr Floyd Mallot, professor of Church History at Bethany > Seminary, used to ask - "What happened to the Brethren during the > Revolution? They Changed!" The change was from Pietism to Anabaptism - > from an open freedom to a type of legalism. The church Elders met in > an > Annual Meeting, where they determined the direction of the Church, and > they enforced their decisions on the churches. > > This was not Pietism, this was Anabaptism - and the Brethren who had > migrated west (Brothers Valley, and Washington Co PA) and south (the > Carolinas), and some few who were in Kaintuck - were Pietist - they > had > left before Annual Meeting developed and before the emphasis on > Anabaptism. As one migrant coming to Ohio on the new National Road (US > 40) -about 1826 asked: "What do we do about these 'Strange Brethren'?" > There was considerable difference between the Brethren, who were > already > here, and these Annual Meeting Brethren who came later -and Annual > Meeting kicked all these early Brethren OUT (unless they changed -and > accepted the Annual Meeting decisions - see the records on the "Far > Western Brethren" and Elder George Wolfe Jr - George Wolfe accepted > the > Annual Meeting way, many others did not!) > > The Frontier Brethren do not seem to have had the strong stand for > Pacifism that was true of the Annual Meeting Brethren. They did defend > themselves against the British and Indian invasions. Some of them > killed, others reloaded the guns for the fighters or tended injured or > fought fires from the fire arrows. It was as Daniel Boone (Quaker > origin) said (speaking of being a waggoner for General Braddock, at > the > defeat at Pittsburg) -he killed the first of only three Indians that > he > killed in his life. Many of the early Brethren in Kentucky were youth > who had fought in the Revolution (Capt Henry Rhoads -of Brothers > Valley > - in Muhlenberg Co KY 1784). Some had even been expelled from their > family back home, because of the war, but they were still Brethren - > and > carried the Brethren faith with them (but Pietism -and not the > Anabaptism). > > Annual Meeting "expelled" (Frontier Brethren term) these early > Brethren > about 1826. Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hon were placed on > the > Ban (the Brethren Encyclopedia calls them "the Hostetler Brethren", > they > called themselves "the Brethren Association"). From what Historian > Abraham Cassel says, in numbers it may have been almost half the > denomination. The Brethren, in that time, practiced what they called: > "Unanimity" - we sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our > decisions, so there could be no decision until the whole body voted > unanimous. The Annual Meeting Brethren saw these Frontier Brethren as > not accepting the decisions of the Holy Spirit (but the Frontier > Brethren had not been present when the decisions were made, and seem > to > have not even known about the question or the decision!) So they had > to > change and accept the Annual Meeting decision - or leave. > > The Brethren of the Civil War period were All - Annual Meeting > Brethren, > the Brethren of the Revolution were not. > > Be sure - there were other differences between the Pietist faith and > Anabaptism - we don't really know them all (someone needs to translate > the commentary of the Pietist Berleberg Bible -I'm sure it would > tell us > things we don't know about Pietist beliefs - but it is HUGE - 8 > volumes, > over 1000 pages each - 18th Century German) > > Merle C Rummel > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams > mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merle--I would like to respond to your next to last paragraph regarding the Brethren during the Civil War period. What I have found regarding the Brethren in Missouri during this period differs from your statement that all the Brethren of the Civil War period were Annual Meeting Brethren. The majority of the early Brethren in Missouri prior to 1865 were tied to the Far Western Brethren under the leadership of George Wolfe and the Mill Creek Brethren near Liberty, Adams County, Illinois. It is also true that there were Brethren in Missouri at this time from mostly the southern states of Virginia, the Carolinas, Kentucky and Tennessee. Other Brethren had arrived here from Pennsylvania, Maryland, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Thus, the Missouri Brethren were representative of many of the existing Brethren groups prior to the Civil War. The upheaval of war on the Western Front early in 1861 created a battleground involving all residents of Missouri whether they were Brethren or not. A number of Brethren left Missouri before the end of 1861 either because of death threats or loss of family members. Jane Davis. > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:52:15 -0400> From: cliff@rtkonline.com> To: brethren@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [BRE] DAR/Anabaptists> > > >> > First, I highly recommend you read the book “Brethren in the New Nation”, by> > Sappington. Although this book does not deal with the Revolutionary War> > period, it does go into explicit detail regarding how the Brethren dealt> > with the draft during the Civil War. The attitudes toward pacifism shown in> > Sappington’s book during the Civil War would also have been the same in the> > Revolutionary War. The non-enroller listings for Frederick County, MD, and> > the non-associator listings for Lancaster County, support this view.> >> > > > Let me complicate the picture -> > I took the Conscientious Objector stand during the Korean War, but my > son went into the Marines - so I have some sympathy with both sides -> > In this research I've been doing on the Early Brethren in Kentucky - the > "Frontier Brethren" - one of the observations I am making was that these > Brethren held strongly to the Pietist origin of our church - and there > were differences. Dr Dale Brown, who taught the Pietism Course at > Bethany Seminary, made the point strong that we Brethren today do not > know what Pietism was. What he taught was the history of the beginnings > - and he admitted that there were no records, except for Ephrata (a > Radical Pietism), to show what it meant in the life of the individual > and the church.> > The Brethren Church of today comes out of the Brethren of eastern > Pennsylvania and Maryland (and slightly in Virginia, the Brethren had > only been in the Valley a couple years before the war started) who > survived the persecution of the Revolutionary period. Our stand was > based both on the Bible -the commandment - "Thou shalt not kill." (The > Hebrew word is "ratasch" - which means to kill a person -as opposed to > "sachat" -which means to kill an animal. - so to explain it as "no > murder" is incorrect!) and through our promise ("A Dunker's word is as > good as his bond!") of loyalty to the King. We appreciated the > opportunity the King gave, to permit us to live in this peaceful land, > after the devastations suffered in the Palatinate during the wars of > Europe. The Sons of Liberty, proponents of the Revolution, but not a > majority of the population, terrorized those who stood in opposition to > them. The Brethren, and Mennonites and Amish (fellow Anabaptists), were > persecuted - some severely. The church "withdrew" into community with > these others also suffering for their stand. Shall I say, we hid out > together.> > The early Brethren were nearly opposite. The Germantown Church (mother > church) was reported to pray and sing so loud, that it hurt your ears, > clear down the street (Durnbaugh). Many a Brethren home became a center > of evangelism to their neighbors. Pietism was concerned with a revival > of the individual, to bring them to a closer relationship to Jesus. > Creeds and practices hardly mattered. The original pietism spread > through all the churches of Germany. There were only two denominations > to directly result out of the movement, and the Brethren are one - and > even his mentor, Hochmann von Hochenau, was upset about what Alexander > Mack had done.> > As such, Dr Floyd Mallot, professor of Church History at Bethany > Seminary, used to ask - "What happened to the Brethren during the > Revolution? They Changed!" The change was from Pietism to Anabaptism - > from an open freedom to a type of legalism. The church Elders met in an > Annual Meeting, where they determined the direction of the Church, and > they enforced their decisions on the churches.> > This was not Pietism, this was Anabaptism - and the Brethren who had > migrated west (Brothers Valley, and Washington Co PA) and south (the > Carolinas), and some few who were in Kaintuck - were Pietist - they had > left before Annual Meeting developed and before the emphasis on > Anabaptism. As one migrant coming to Ohio on the new National Road (US > 40) -about 1826 asked: "What do we do about these 'Strange Brethren'?" > There was considerable difference between the Brethren, who were already > here, and these Annual Meeting Brethren who came later -and Annual > Meeting kicked all these early Brethren OUT (unless they changed -and > accepted the Annual Meeting decisions - see the records on the "Far > Western Brethren" and Elder George Wolfe Jr - George Wolfe accepted the > Annual Meeting way, many others did not!)> > The Frontier Brethren do not seem to have had the strong stand for > Pacifism that was true of the Annual Meeting Brethren. They did defend > themselves against the British and Indian invasions. Some of them > killed, others reloaded the guns for the fighters or tended injured or > fought fires from the fire arrows. It was as Daniel Boone (Quaker > origin) said (speaking of being a waggoner for General Braddock, at the > defeat at Pittsburg) -he killed the first of only three Indians that he > killed in his life. Many of the early Brethren in Kentucky were youth > who had fought in the Revolution (Capt Henry Rhoads -of Brothers Valley > - in Muhlenberg Co KY 1784). Some had even been expelled from their > family back home, because of the war, but they were still Brethren -and > carried the Brethren faith with them (but Pietism -and not the Anabaptism).> > Annual Meeting "expelled" (Frontier Brethren term) these early Brethren > about 1826. Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hon were placed on the > Ban (the Brethren Encyclopedia calls them "the Hostetler Brethren", they > called themselves "the Brethren Association"). From what Historian > Abraham Cassel says, in numbers it may have been almost half the > denomination. The Brethren, in that time, practiced what they called: > "Unanimity" - we sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our > decisions, so there could be no decision until the whole body voted > unanimous. The Annual Meeting Brethren saw these Frontier Brethren as > not accepting the decisions of the Holy Spirit (but the Frontier > Brethren had not been present when the decisions were made, and seem to > have not even known about the question or the decision!) So they had to > change and accept the Annual Meeting decision - or leave.> > The Brethren of the Civil War period were All - Annual Meeting Brethren, > the Brethren of the Revolution were not.> > Be sure - there were other differences between the Pietist faith and > Anabaptism - we don't really know them all (someone needs to translate > the commentary of the Pietist Berleberg Bible -I'm sure it would tell us > things we don't know about Pietist beliefs - but it is HUGE - 8 volumes, > over 1000 pages each - 18th Century German)> > Merle C Rummel> > ------------------------> Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN> ------------------------> Support Our Sponsoring Agency> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG)> For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com> ------------------------> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace