RE: "I have been MIS-understood. It is NOT theology that attracted my interest.... My interest lies in the HISTORY" These references are about the Brethren's reaction to Universalism in different areas of the country. It contains names and places. It is not a series of dissertations on Universal theology. If you want to understand the history on this subject, these references are the starting point. Cooper, Sappington and Durnbaugh are famous Brethren historians, not theologians. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John McLeod Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:41 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Frontier Brethren / Universalism / Pietism / Elders Miller & Martin (part 3 of 3) I appears that I have been MIS-understood. It is NOT theology that attracted my interest. My interest lies in the HISTORY of the transitions within congregations and conferences and the possibility that my ancestors might have been entangled in that. At 07:52 PM 7/7/08 -0400, you wrote: >RE: "I am finding this discussion of the beginnings of Universalism MOST >interesting." > >An over simplification of Universalism, is the belief that all mankind will >eventually be in Heaven. However, Brethren were not Unitarian, they had a >Trinitarian theology. > >On page 122 of Cooper's "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley Church of the >Brethren" is a reprint of an article in an 1864 issue of the "Gospel >Visitor" that summarizes some of the controversial theology of George Adam >Martin, which includes Universalism. > >Sappington's "The Brethren in the New Nation" dedicates most of a chapter on >Universalism in relation to the 19th Century Brethren. He also discusses >Universalism in various parts of his book. > >Durnbaugh's "The Brethren in Colonial America" also dedicates a chapter on >Universalism in relation to the 18th Century Brethren. Durnbaugh notes that >Universalism was a mark of radical Pietism. He also notes that documents >indicate Alexander Mack Sr. subscribed to some of the theology of >Universalism, but wasn't a proponent of it. > >Bill Thomas > > > > > ------------------------ >Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Andy, I bought my copy of the Cain Lackey biography on Ebay, maybe a year ago. Mine is not for sale but I will share from it. Milton Cook ____________________________________________________________ Stop foreclosure. Click here to stay in your home and rebuild credit. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3meXwkBBKc5catirLTidPTxhn3pR7UXL01u18PCtmlpPd3QE/

I appears that I have been MIS-understood. It is NOT theology that attracted my interest. My interest lies in the HISTORY of the transitions within congregations and conferences and the possibility that my ancestors might have been entangled in that. At 07:52 PM 7/7/08 -0400, you wrote: >RE: "I am finding this discussion of the beginnings of Universalism MOST >interesting." > >An over simplification of Universalism, is the belief that all mankind will >eventually be in Heaven. However, Brethren were not Unitarian, they had a >Trinitarian theology. > >On page 122 of Cooper's "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley Church of the >Brethren" is a reprint of an article in an 1864 issue of the "Gospel >Visitor" that summarizes some of the controversial theology of George Adam >Martin, which includes Universalism. > >Sappington's "The Brethren in the New Nation" dedicates most of a chapter on >Universalism in relation to the 19th Century Brethren. He also discusses >Universalism in various parts of his book. > >Durnbaugh's "The Brethren in Colonial America" also dedicates a chapter on >Universalism in relation to the 18th Century Brethren. Durnbaugh notes that >Universalism was a mark of radical Pietism. He also notes that documents >indicate Alexander Mack Sr. subscribed to some of the theology of >Universalism, but wasn't a proponent of it. > >Bill Thomas > > > > > ------------------------ >Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I may have mentioned before a book I was reading, but I am going to mention it again since I think it is so valuable for some of you. The book is: "The Church of the Singing Hills" by Ausin Cooper, 1988. It is "a source book on the early families, places, dates, land tracts, and events of Frederick, Carroll, and Washington Counties, Maryland". I got it thru an inter-library loan. I can't now remember where it was sent from - sorry - I sent it back. It says it concentrates on Linganore Creek chuch, Mt. Airy, & Bush Creek from 1760-1988, but it covers so much more. I got some good information about many other churches in this area, and many people, including my family. If you are interested in pre-revolutionary Brethren experience in MD, this is a great read. The persecution is written about in some specificity with some explanation so it really is able to be understood by reader in 2008. winter

I am looking for a copy of the Biography of Cain Lackey, if anyone knows where one of these would be for sale, please let me know. Andy Doss

Fellow researchers--I, too, have enjoyed this discussion. From where I stand, it seems this discussion is a very good example of what happened when the Brethren living in the eastern portions of our nation moved westward. Each of us carries with us a halo of our experiences and interpretations of life. And, we come in contact with those who disagree with us on one or more issues. Then, we either develop ways to resolve the issues together or we do not. Frontier accommodation in patterns of living, religious understandings, and cultural heritages faced all those who ventured from "home" to a new living environment. Brethren were not exempt from these issues. How they resolved their religious understandings, cultural and living patterns is one example among many other groups of peoples. History has recorded some of these experiences, but I doubt all the experiences, since all of us "see" the experience differently from others and will describe the same experience from their own standpoint. We have not all had the same teachers. Neither have our life's experiences been duplicated by all others. Each of us will interpret our experiences differently, just as those who recorded the history of the Brethren who have lived before us today. We can only interpret from the material we have researched, we can never say with certainty that we have the only answer. One early Brethren historian has described historians as beggars picking up the crumbs left from the meal. Whatever "crumbs" we have picked up allows us to interpret what we see. None of us can be completely correct, or completely wrong. There is some truth in all the interpretations. How the Brethren in Missouri who arrived while the area was still under Spanish, later French rule, then Americanized after 1804, accommodated to these changes will be different from those who arrived in other areas of the country earlier in our national or religious history. The Brethren who arrived in Missouri just prior to the Border Warfare of the 1850's and the Civil War beginning in 1861 will have different experiences from those arriving after the war. Many of those who came to Missouri had some previous experiences in Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and the Carolinas, as well as the more northern states and accommodations were again made. Change continues to happen, both within our own Brethren history and our nation's history. We do not remain static. Just think of the changes in our own lifetimes. Whoever our teachers were, they taught as they understood history. I ask the question, "Will we teach and write our history with openness?" We have a choice. Jane Davis. _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace

Hello: Thank you Wayne Webb for the opinions and history relayed in the three submissions titled "Frontier Brethren / Universalism / Pietism / Elders Miller & Martin (parts 1 through 3); I thoroughly enjoyed reading them. Can anyone provide more information on the paragraph below from Wayne's letter: 1. Who are "The unknown parents of the five Miller brothers..."? 2. Who are "...the five Miller brothers..."? 3. What are and can I see a copy of "...the other Millers listed in the same set of early records"? Wayne, you may have collected information from Miller researchers to put together the conclusions set forth here; is this information available? Did the authors allow you to share it? Thank you John L. Miller Elkhart County, IN Millers -Daniel Miller (1755, 1822) --David B. Miller (1781, ~1850) ---John D. Miller (1812, 1902) ----David Baker Miller (1838, 1922) ----- Samson Miller (1864, 1937) ------ (1903, 1972) ------- (1929, living) --------(many living) ---------(many more living) ----------(one on the way) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:41:03 -0400 From: "Wayne Webb" <SpiWebb@aol.com> Subject: [BRE] Frontier Brethren / Universalism / Pietism / Elders Miller & Martin (part 3 of 3) "... Elder Miller seems, possibly, to also have a portion of the views of Ephrata through the teachings of Elder Martin. Elder Miller is likely that Jacob Miller mentioned as being baptised in the Conestoga church listings which also lists his unnamed wife. The unknown parents of the five Miller brothers would, logically, be one of the other Millers listed in the same set of early records. .... Wayne Webb"

You might be interested in Benjamin Miller's letter (Nov.18,1841) to his brother-in-law, William Miller (living at South Bend IN - grandson of Elder Jacob Miller) in the Appendix I, 'The Miller Letters" - in my book at the Liberty IN Library website http://www.union-county.lib.in.us/GenwebVA4mile/Appendix%20Page.htm As Benjamin says -he is not yet a Universalist Preacher I find to my great consolation that God loves the world - and will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth - and has puposed to bring every knee to bow, and every tounge to confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, and to bless all the hundreds of the earth by turning away every one of them from their inquity. Is it unsafe to trust in such a foundation; Will this not "do for the next world?" Do you not trust in the mercy and goodness of God, or do you put your trust in your own peculiar feelings, in your formalities, prayers and church gowings. Merle C Rummel > > On page 122 of Cooper's "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley Church of the > Brethren" is a reprint of an article in an 1864 issue of the "Gospel > Visitor" that summarizes some of the controversial theology of George Adam > Martin, which includes Universalism. > > Sappington's "The Brethren in the New Nation" dedicates most of a chapter on > Universalism in relation to the 19th Century Brethren. He also discusses > Universalism in various parts of his book. > > Durnbaugh's "The Brethren in Colonial America" also dedicates a chapter on > Universalism in relation to the 18th Century Brethren. Durnbaugh notes that > Universalism was a mark of radical Pietism. He also notes that documents > indicate Alexander Mack Sr. subscribed to some of the theology of > Universalism, but wasn't a proponent of it. > > >

> One of the strengths (and sometimes weaknesses) of the Brethren is the balance or the lack of balance between Pietism and Anabaptism. The early Brethren borrowed from both systems of thought. They realized the necessity of a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. They also realized there was a need for structure in their religious lives. The Pietists emphasized the personal qualities of our relationship with God. The Anabaptist realized the need of community among believers. > During the past 300 years there have been swings from one side to the other. In the early days there was a strong dose of Pietism, later Anabaptism became dominant. The Brethren have suffered when they lost their balance. When every man did what was right in his own eyes, the community suffered. When the community framed miiniscule rules the personal relationship was threatened. There were times that the Brethren inched towards legalism, but there were other times and places where the Brethren majored in the mystical and otherworldly. > A wise balance between the two systems gave the Brethren the best of both. When unbalanced there were problems. > I've been debating how to answer this - because I cannot accept your statements - yes, we like to say that we are "Pietist Anabaptist", but that can only be truthfully said in reference to our origins. The Brethren are only one of two denominations that began in the Pietist movement of Germany. We were aberrations. The Pietist movement were Bible Study fellowships, who were attempting a return bring a to "First Century Christianity" or as it was called: "Primitive Christianity". They were reaching out to Christians in all the Churches. (There were very few in Western Europe in that time who were not members of one or another of the three legal Established Churches: Lutheran, Reformed or Catholic. You were baptized one as an infant, and what you did about that as you grew up, was your own affair.) The Pietists did not form churches, they worked within a church community (even though most were persecuted for it). The Pietist brethren sought to bring a change in the personal relationship of a person with Jesus. In so doing, they opposed many of the Established Church procedures, based on "works" (church attendance and tithing, and the resulting clergy), and that is where the problem arose. The only other church to form out of the Pietist brethren, was a remnant of John Hus followers who lived at Herrnhut, in Moravia, Eastern Germany. They became the Moravian Brethren, the "Unitas Fratrum", under the protection of Count Ludwig von Zinzendorf. When Alexander Mack baptized the 7 persons, his mentor: Hochman von Hochenau, was vehemently upset. Two hundred years before, at the time of the Lutheran Reformation, and the formation of the Reformed Churches of Zwingli and Calvin, there was a third group, who actually were an extension of the German Mystics of even earlier centuries. They were called the Anabaptists ('baptized again") because they did not accept infant baptism, saying that it did not fulfill the scripture: "Believe and be baptized!". They refused even the response to that, that the "Believe" was of the parents, who then had their baby Baptized. They promoted an "Adult Baptism", where the individual himself must personally believe in Jesus as Savior, in order to be baptized. Since everyone had already been baptized as an infant (so they would go to heaven if they died, and not to hell - and nearly half of the babies died within their first 5 years), this was being "baptized again!" The Catholic Priest (Menno Simons) recanted in his Catholicism, and began the Anabaptist Mennonites. The Pietist Alexander Mack had read, and accepted this Anabaptist concept, and the baptism at the Eder River, at Schwartzenau Germany, in 1708 (300 years ago) was an immersion baptism, based around this Anabaptist belief. Where he directly got the concept from is unknown, although it was near this same time that Jacob Ammon, of Switzerland, brought a revival to the Mennonites which are known today as the Amish. As far as we can know, the early Brethren were Not Anabaptists, except in their Adult Baptism. They were accepted by the Mennonites in Friesland Holland, when persecution became too great for us to remain in the Palatinate, in Wittgenstein. The reason the Brethren decided to come to America was because they refused the Mennonite Anabaptism, especially as their youth were marrying into the Mennonite families there in Holland. Here in America, the early Brethren were Pietists, they were not considered Anabaptists. The records tell how at Germantown the Brethren prayed and sang so loud, that it hurt the ear, clear down the street (well, here in America, they did not have to hide their religion - they no longer met in a noisy waterwheel mill). The first baptism was observed by neighboring families. The Brethren held "open" services, and attracted new families into their faith, almost everywhere they lived. This especially seen among the Carolina Brethren migrants, and also among those who had moved on to Kaintuck. In Carolina, Elder David Martin, son of the Elder George Adam Martin, a leading, non-Ephrata Pietist, promoted the Pietist faith in "Eternal Restoration" (which developed into Universalism - that God loves his creation so much, that he will not leave them in Hell for eternity). Ephrata developed the Pietist relationship with Jesus into Celibacy - following St Paul's comment against marriage - that one's life can be more completely devoted to Jesus, if the demands of spouse and family are not present. Other early Brethren seem to have followed this belief, more or less. Alexander Mack Jr went to Ephrata, where he was Brother Timotheus, before he fled in disagreement to Conrad Beissel, the "Superintendent", fled with the Eckerlins to Mahanaim, below Roanoke VA -"four hundred miles toward the setting sun". Christopher Sower's wife left him and went to Ephrata, although she later left Ephrata and returned home. The Brethren minister, George Boone, brother of Daniel, is said to have lived as a "Solitary" in the Ohio River hills, after his wife died. Elder Jacob Miller, seems to have also lived as a Solitary, on the Great Miami River. An 1806 letter by the Harshbargers indicates that he "was living alone, with the English Preacher" (Samuel Boultin). His second wife, Barbara (Lybrook) Miller (married in Franklin Co Va in 1801), is found (by family tradition, and almost certainly in the census) here in Indiana Territory, with her brother, Philip, at the Four Mile. We do not know what early Pietism was like - especially as the Brethren believed and practiced it. (This is why I keep promoting, that someone translate the Berleberg Bible [so I can read it] - the 1740s Pietist Bible - which is mostly scriptural commentary -it is a Bible of 8 volumes, 1000 pages each - many pages are a single scripture, and a page of commentary on it.) Dr Dale Brown was a professor at Bethany Seminary, and had just written his book about Pietism. I took his Pietism class. Dale Brown said it very clearly. "The Brethren do not know what Pietism was!" His book is a study of the European History of Pietism, how it started, how it spread throughout Germany, some of the Radical expressions of Pietism, and how it was opposed by the existing churches. He said that he did not know what Pietism was like to the early Brethren. The Reason: We are no longer Pietists. We have not been Pietists since early in our History. Dr Floyd Mallott, professor of Church History, also at Bethany Seminary at that time, made a corresponding statement: "What happened to the Brethren during the Revolution? They Changed!" The Brethren after the American Revolution were much different from the Brethren as they were in the early days and up to near the time of the American Revolution. From what I have been saying, from what I found with the Brethren who went to Kentucky, the "Frontier Brethren" - they were of the Pietist tradition, there are different comments, that are so different from the Brethren are today. Then there was the rejection of them by the Annual Meeting Elders - first in North Carolina, in the 1790s - over "Universalism" - when Elder Jacob Stutzman (come to Uwharrie, Rowan Co NC from Pipe Creek in Maryland) wrote the famous letterback to his brother-in-law, to Elder Michael Pfautz at Pipe Creek, Frederick Co MD, which led Annual Meeting in 1798, to place "John H" on the Ban, which spoke against the Carolina Universalism. Elder John Hendricks (? "John H" ?) immediately disposed of his farms in North Carolina and moved to the Drakes Creek, in Warren Co KY (now Simpson Co). He promoted Eternal Restoration there, although I have found it in a number of families in other Brethren Churches of Kentucky and even among the children of Elder Jacob Miller, here at the Four Mile in Indiana. Then we find the rejection of these "Frontier Brethren" after the opening of the National Road (1826) to Richmond IN - when the rush of migration brought the eastern Brethren to western Ohio (the origin of the present churches of Montgomery Co, and vicinity). The Brethren coming from out east, found Brethren churches already here, churches that were different. They wrote back: "What do we do with these 'Strange' Brethren?" Annual Meeting advised: "Avoid them!' ("Avoidance" - the Ban) To answer Dr Floyd Mallott "What happened to the Brethren during the Revolution? They Changed!" Annual Meeting and the Elders faced the persecutions of the Revolution by withdrawing into the Anabaptist/Mennonite "Community". They dare not be the Brethren that attracted community attention any longer, it brought persecution. They chose an isolation from society about them. It was "closed" - only Brethren allowed! And - from the conflicts with the Radical Pietism at Ephrata - they closed it out. Essentially, Pietism was no longer permitted to be a part of the Brethren. They denied it, wherever they met it -and threw the "heretical" elders out of the church. They demanded adherence to the decisions of Annual Meeting -with all these new concepts (per Brethren Historian, Abraham Cassel). And the Frontier Brethren refused, and there were those of the later Far Western Brethren who refused - and they were no longer part of the Brethren. As Dr Dale Brown said - we Brethren no longer know what Pietism is. We are NOT Pietists. Yes, we hold concepts that the Pietists held - but the Anabaptists held these concepts long before the Pietists came. They both believed in the necessity of personal Bible Study, and in living the Bible as it taught what faith should mean. The term: "First Century Christianity" is common to both movements. They believed that the Established Church was a false church, following men, and not Christ. They believed in a soon return of Jesus Christ, in Judgement of Sinners: the End of the World. They believed that we would soon be facing the "Judgment" and we were to be ready. But we reject beliefs that both movements held. Both groups seem to have originally held - to the "Gifts of the Spirit", including "faith healing", and "speaking in tongues". Both Menno Simons and Alexander Mack use phrases that are remarkably similar to phrases used by the Pentecostal Movement and the more recent Charismatic movement. The same could be said of their predecessors - the German Mystics, and Peter Abelaird and the Cathari before them (each about 200 years apart - and, within limitations, it can be said of similar heresies clear back to 100 AD). It has long been accepted that some of these "heresies" proclaimed by "the church" over the centuries, often are nearly the same. (Does God try trying to bring about "His Church", and man constantly remakes it into what man is comfortable with?) No, there is no "balance" in the Brethren, between Pietism and Anabaptism, because there is no longer any real Pietism in the church, it was essentially removed from the denomination -back during the Revolution. We use the term today, but we do not know what Pietism was. Now, I admit, to Jane Davis - that many of these "Frontier Brethren" (after 1800), and remnants of the "Far Western Brethren" (about 1860) went to Missouri, and the early church there, likely, was much different. But many of these went to Missouri as Disciples of Christ, Methodists and even as Universalists, not as Brethren - already driven out of the Brethren denomination (their term was "ejected"). I still find it interesting, to have found the 1850s people of the Liberty Church (Disciples of Christ -originally the Lost River Brethren Church), Orleans, Orange Co IN - calling themselves "Dunker Christians". - because, they didn't know what to do, not belonging to the Brethren back east, any longer. This has become a "treatise" Merle C Rummel

I"interested in theBrower family- .They woulf have been from Virginia to the Carolinas one brother( his naneISSUM BROWERor ISHUM BROWER)he married a Cherokee indian by the name if ELVIRIA. Wll be interested in hearing from some oneTherewere 3 brothers who came from Germany with their dad....they were German Baptist Thanks Martha Brower Fenner 1 of 3) > Morning My Fellow List Members, > > Please be forewarned that this email is a lengthy one and therefore has > been split into three portions. The "story" is based upon observations > made by myself over a period of time and pertains to Elder Miller of the > Miami Valley of Ohio. It will discuss in a purely historical context the > possible roots of his theological training and from where they may have > originated. > > I wish to point out one interesting entry that most people may or may > not be aware of. And this is of interest to me, and some who wish to > remain silent, because of my interest in early history of Bedford county, > Pennsylvania and Montgomery county, Ohio. This also in a small part > impacts the history of the early church in both the Carolinas, Virginia > and western Pennsylvania. I am not the person to tell it, not coming from > a purely academic strata of society, but nonetheless it should be told. > > > > Many of us of the Miami Valley of Ohio are aware, as related in the > 1920 Southern District of Ohio book, that there was some problem relating > to the Brethren of that region. It is specific in the region covered, at > that time Montgomery county, but not as to the why. Those Brethren just > loved to say nothing! > > > > We are left enough of their words to discern that the "unrest and > dissent" was specifically between "namely Jacob Miller and David Ulrich > and Johannes Greib". It was agreed by all parties involved that a > committee of Elders from Virginia should be called for, likely thru a > letter to Annual Meeting, to assist in settling the matter. What was the > problem? We cannot say with any certainty what the problems are so we are > therefore left to speculate. > > > > It is my belief that Elder Jacob Miller was a Pietist of the style > most reminiscent of the earliest Brethren. This would in some camps be > referred to as Frontier Brethren but even later are more aptly named the > Far Western Brethren and can be termed as descendants in thought of the > Pietists. As has been pointed out, the Frontier and Far Western Brethren > primarily come from the Southern states and more on this later in my > diatribe. Meanwhile Elders Grieb and Ulrich were what we can term as > Annual Meeting Brethren and came from Bedford county, Pennsylvania. > > > > Where did Elder Miller possibly obtain his differing views on church > polity? If our summations are correct about Elder Miller he was raised > not in Franklin county, Pennsylvania but instead comes from that area of > Pennsylvania influenced by the activities of Elder George Adam Martin. > This assumption is based on Miller's brother, Tobias, being represented in > the lists of the Coventry church as well as being married to one of the > daughters of Christian Brower of the same church. Logically then Elder > Jacob Miller did, at some time in his life, live in that region of > Pennsylvania covered by the Coventry and Conestoga churches. And we > cannot forget either the impact of Ephrata into this equation. > > > > Let us assume that Cooper was correct when he related to Merle that he > had seen, written into an old church volume, that Elder Miller was raised > to the Eldership by Martin while at the Stony Creek church of Brothers > Valley. There is no proof as to the accuracy of this statement but in > light of the activities that can be documented about Elder Miller there is > the distinct possibility of this occurring. > > > > Remember, Elder Martin with many other Brethren from the Coventry and > Conestoga churches, moved into the Conococheague and Antietam > congregations in the mid-1740s. He, Elder Martin, then moved on into > Cumberland county, Pennsylvania, before eventually moving into what became > Bedford county and even later Somerset county. And those interested in > Pennsylvania history really should read and study the list of attendees at > the Redstone Meeting of 1768. This list of attendees impacts German > Baptist history. > > > > Wayne Webb > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

RE: "I am finding this discussion of the beginnings of Universalism MOST interesting." An over simplification of Universalism, is the belief that all mankind will eventually be in Heaven. However, Brethren were not Unitarian, they had a Trinitarian theology. On page 122 of Cooper's "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley Church of the Brethren" is a reprint of an article in an 1864 issue of the "Gospel Visitor" that summarizes some of the controversial theology of George Adam Martin, which includes Universalism. Sappington's "The Brethren in the New Nation" dedicates most of a chapter on Universalism in relation to the 19th Century Brethren. He also discusses Universalism in various parts of his book. Durnbaugh's "The Brethren in Colonial America" also dedicates a chapter on Universalism in relation to the 18th Century Brethren. Durnbaugh notes that Universalism was a mark of radical Pietism. He also notes that documents indicate Alexander Mack Sr. subscribed to some of the theology of Universalism, but wasn't a proponent of it. Bill Thomas

Is anyone on the list researching the possible Dunkard brothers, John and Jacob Crouse of Rowan Co, NC? They are on the 1778 Rowan tax list and apparently die between 1810-1820. Best regards, Diana **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

I would like the managers of this list to know that I am finding this discussion of the beginnings of Universalism MOST interesting. Please do NOT terminate this line anytime soon. This looks like it may lead to better understanding of my own family history. My father was born in Scotland and brought to America as a wee laddie. When he grew up, he rebelled against the Church of Scotland and became a Unitarian. Mother tagged along with this and I was raised Unitarian. Only later did I come to understand the differences in social attitudes separating Unitarians and Universalists. Then I realized that mother was really a Universalist. Her paternal ancestors left the Brethren Church about a generation after the events which Wayne is describing, when they were living in Champaign County, Ohio, only about 50 miles from his venue. I get to wonder if this squabble had anything to do with their departure. At 10:41 AM 7/7/08 -0400, Wayne Webb wrote: > In getting back to Samuel Bolton we discover that all of his children > were married by ministers of the New Light church. I believe that Merle > can comment on this far better than I but it is my understanding that > this is a Universalist church of English extraction. I also offer new > found insight into William Rose Smith who was a devotee of Elder Miller > while in Virginia but will let the readers of this writing discover this > on their own. > > > > In a nut shell we can now state with a certain accuracy that the > Virginia Conference of 1811 demonstrates an earlier ramification of the > same problems that would come to haunt the Far Western Brethren and which > has now become a portion of the history of the German Baptist church as a > whole. I believe we can state that Elder Miller was heavily influenced > by Elder Martin and his religious views. Elder Miller seems, possibly, > to also have a portion of the views of Ephrata through the teachings of > Elder Martin. Elder Miller is likely that Jacob Miller mentioned as > being baptised in the Conestoga church listings which also lists his > unnamed wife. The unknown parents of the five Miller brothers would, > logically, be one of the other Millers listed in the same set of early records. > > > > Elder Miller has as students Samuel Bolton and William Rose Smith, > both Englishers, who would figure into the early history of the church in > Indiana and Ohio. Samuel Bolton in the Miami Valley and Elder Smith in > Virginia and Indiana. One was removed from the church and the other > forgotten, either intentionally or by error. Elder Miller, because of > his Universalist and / or Pietist views differed in opinion from the > Annual Meeting Brethren in the guise of Elders Ulrich and Gripe thus > resulting in the dividing of the early churches in the Miami Valley of > Ohio via the Virginia Conference of Ohio. > > > > I apologize for the length of this email to my fellow members. I > also apologize for the poor writing skills. While this is a subject dear > to my heart the vocabulary of the writer is not quite up to the task. In > part this is because a portion of the material comes from documentation > and a portion from logic. There is a lot that is documented but there is > not a shred of documentation on the underpinnings of the reasons of the > Virginia Conference of 1811. Only the actions afterward taken. > > > > That being said if one was to read between the lines in the 1920 > Southern District of Ohio and compare it with those churches of Southern > Indiana that went either Disciples or Christian Church you will see a > similarity of surnames that is truly astounding. It is not common > knowledge but a near relative of Joseph Hochstetler (the boy preacher), > of whom Friend Merle has related interesting information, was Christian > Hochstetler. Christian moved from Shelby county, Kentucky into > Montgomery county, Ohio (likely in the northern portion) where he died in > 1814. A good sized portion of his family later moved into the Southern > Indiana region of which Merle has told us. > > > >Wayne Webb > > ------------------------ >Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bravo! Thank you so much for shedding light on this. Blessings, Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Webb" <SpiWebb@aol.com> To: "Brethren Mailing List" <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: [BRE] Frontier Brethren / Universalism / Pietism / Elders Miller &Martin (part 3 of 3) > In getting back to Samuel Bolton we discover that all of his children > were married by ministers of the New Light church. I believe that Merle > can comment on this far better than I but it is my understanding that this > is a Universalist church of English extraction. I also offer new found > insight into William Rose Smith who was a devotee of Elder Miller while in > Virginia but will let the readers of this writing discover this on their > own. > > > > In a nut shell we can now state with a certain accuracy that the > Virginia Conference of 1811 demonstrates an earlier ramification of the > same problems that would come to haunt the Far Western Brethren and which > has now become a portion of the history of the German Baptist church as a > whole. I believe we can state that Elder Miller was heavily influenced by > Elder Martin and his religious views. Elder Miller seems, possibly, to > also have a portion of the views of Ephrata through the teachings of Elder > Martin. Elder Miller is likely that Jacob Miller mentioned as being > baptised in the Conestoga church listings which also lists his unnamed > wife. The unknown parents of the five Miller brothers would, logically, > be one of the other Millers listed in the same set of early records. > > > > Elder Miller has as students Samuel Bolton and William Rose Smith, > both Englishers, who would figure into the early history of the church in > Indiana and Ohio. Samuel Bolton in the Miami Valley and Elder Smith in > Virginia and Indiana. One was removed from the church and the other > forgotten, either intentionally or by error. Elder Miller, because of his > Universalist and / or Pietist views differed in opinion from the Annual > Meeting Brethren in the guise of Elders Ulrich and Gripe thus resulting in > the dividing of the early churches in the Miami Valley of Ohio via the > Virginia Conference of Ohio. > > > > I apologize for the length of this email to my fellow members. I also > apologize for the poor writing skills. While this is a subject dear to my > heart the vocabulary of the writer is not quite up to the task. In part > this is because a portion of the material comes from documentation and a > portion from logic. There is a lot that is documented but there is not a > shred of documentation on the underpinnings of the reasons of the Virginia > Conference of 1811. Only the actions afterward taken. > > > > That being said if one was to read between the lines in the 1920 > Southern District of Ohio and compare it with those churches of Southern > Indiana that went either Disciples or Christian Church you will see a > similarity of surnames that is truly astounding. It is not common > knowledge but a near relative of Joseph Hochstetler (the boy preacher), of > whom Friend Merle has related interesting information, was Christian > Hochstetler. Christian moved from Shelby county, Kentucky into Montgomery > county, Ohio (likely in the northern portion) where he died in 1814. A > good sized portion of his family later moved into the Southern Indiana > region of which Merle has told us. > > > > Wayne Webb > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In getting back to Samuel Bolton we discover that all of his children were married by ministers of the New Light church. I believe that Merle can comment on this far better than I but it is my understanding that this is a Universalist church of English extraction. I also offer new found insight into William Rose Smith who was a devotee of Elder Miller while in Virginia but will let the readers of this writing discover this on their own. In a nut shell we can now state with a certain accuracy that the Virginia Conference of 1811 demonstrates an earlier ramification of the same problems that would come to haunt the Far Western Brethren and which has now become a portion of the history of the German Baptist church as a whole. I believe we can state that Elder Miller was heavily influenced by Elder Martin and his religious views. Elder Miller seems, possibly, to also have a portion of the views of Ephrata through the teachings of Elder Martin. Elder Miller is likely that Jacob Miller mentioned as being baptised in the Conestoga church listings which also lists his unnamed wife. The unknown parents of the five Miller brothers would, logically, be one of the other Millers listed in the same set of early records. Elder Miller has as students Samuel Bolton and William Rose Smith, both Englishers, who would figure into the early history of the church in Indiana and Ohio. Samuel Bolton in the Miami Valley and Elder Smith in Virginia and Indiana. One was removed from the church and the other forgotten, either intentionally or by error. Elder Miller, because of his Universalist and / or Pietist views differed in opinion from the Annual Meeting Brethren in the guise of Elders Ulrich and Gripe thus resulting in the dividing of the early churches in the Miami Valley of Ohio via the Virginia Conference of Ohio. I apologize for the length of this email to my fellow members. I also apologize for the poor writing skills. While this is a subject dear to my heart the vocabulary of the writer is not quite up to the task. In part this is because a portion of the material comes from documentation and a portion from logic. There is a lot that is documented but there is not a shred of documentation on the underpinnings of the reasons of the Virginia Conference of 1811. Only the actions afterward taken. That being said if one was to read between the lines in the 1920 Southern District of Ohio and compare it with those churches of Southern Indiana that went either Disciples or Christian Church you will see a similarity of surnames that is truly astounding. It is not common knowledge but a near relative of Joseph Hochstetler (the boy preacher), of whom Friend Merle has related interesting information, was Christian Hochstetler. Christian moved from Shelby county, Kentucky into Montgomery county, Ohio (likely in the northern portion) where he died in 1814. A good sized portion of his family later moved into the Southern Indiana region of which Merle has told us. Wayne Webb

There is more to establish the connection between Elders Martin and Miller that will not herein be discussed and chiefly deals with the purported activities of Elder Martin into Virginia and the Carolinas. And these activities also encompass others who were likely followers of Elder Martin. This would include those who were put on the bans in the Carolinas (Universalists) and those also influenced by Ephrata. We must understand that Elder Martin was somewhere between what we today call Annual Meeting Brethren and the Ephrata Brethren. There were disputes between Beissel and Martin that are recorded and which most likely was the cause of his not being the leader after Beissel's demise. We can not state for certain what the time spent in Virginia had on Elder Miller's insights into the leadership of the church. There was certainly a less stringent ruling body as his views were not perceived as being detrimental to the church in that place. We do understand that for whatever reason he left Virginia in 1800, as published in various volumes, for Montgomery county, Ohio. It is my belief, but conjecture at this time, that he may have spent a little time in Kentucky, less that a year, before making his way into Ohio. There is a report that indicates that, for whatever reason, Elder Miller was living alone with the "English preacher" while his wife and several of their children were living farther westward in Ohio and Indiana. Friend Merle can better clarify the region where those members of Elder Millers' family were living. Here is where the story gets interesting. We can place Elder Miller in Montgomery county, Ohio in 1800 by documentation. We can also, by documentation, place one Samuel Bolton, aka Samuel Boltin, as coming into the region slightly afterwards. This is important as this one individual is a bridge between the Brethren of Morrison's Cove of Bedford county, Pennsylvania and the Brethren of Elder Miller's ilk. I have been aware of for many years now of marriages purported to have taken place in Jefferson township, Montgomery county, Ohio where Elder Miller spent the remainder of his life. The people were mainly of the German Baptist church and from other sources can be shown to have been married in the aforementioned region. But the marriage records did not exist! They were not married by Elder Miller as those are recorded. Even if it could be stated that they were unrecorded marriages by Elder Miller this is not likely as some of these marriages took place well after his death. Who performed these marriages? Recorded in the Montgomery County, Ohio 1882 history is the brief biographical sketch of Samuel Bolton by his daughter Phoebe who states that her father was a Dunkard minister. Previous to my reading this passage, and being made aware of the unrecorded marriages, he was, apparently on purpose, written out of the Southern District of Ohio book. Whether by intent or by accident I leave others, more qualified to ascertain the reasoning. When I voiced my findings I was politely spoken to that I did not know that of which I spoke. I kept digging. It later came to be found that not only is Bolton mentioned in other county histories in other regions, but also in several Brethren publications. It is now understood that he in fact was a Brethren minister, of English descent, and from a Universalist background. I would also state that he, with Elders Miller and Hart, were the originating ministers of the Twin church in Preble county, Ohio. There is a case of this occurring in Indiana; these three men being the founding ministerial body. It is known that he comes from Philadelphia where he was likely heavily influenced by the 1790 Universalist meeting of that place. At some time he moved west with his father-in-law, Joseph Morrison, and settled in the Cove so named after that person. Either shortly before or after Joseph Morrison's passing he moved to Kentucky. I am of the opinion that he moved to that state with the children of Philip Jacob Miller. Then even later he, Samuel Bolton, moved into the O'Bannon church region before finally settling as a neighbor to Elder Jacob Miller. He eventually purchased that portion of Elder Miller's farm on which Elder Miller had established a cemetery and where Elder Miller passed the remainder of his days. And that Elder Miller died here, and not farther north, is based on the errors made in the Southern District book and by logic. Elder Miller did not die on section eleven as related in that volume. I believe that this error was made because this tract of land was the last of Elder Miller's land that he owned and thus that land sold after his death. An honest error considering the standards of documentation prevalent at the time of the writing of the 1920 book. The proof lies in the deed between Elder Miller and Samuel Bolton. Wayne Webb Wayne Webb

Morning My Fellow List Members, Please be forewarned that this email is a lengthy one and therefore has been split into three portions. The "story" is based upon observations made by myself over a period of time and pertains to Elder Miller of the Miami Valley of Ohio. It will discuss in a purely historical context the possible roots of his theological training and from where they may have originated. I wish to point out one interesting entry that most people may or may not be aware of. And this is of interest to me, and some who wish to remain silent, because of my interest in early history of Bedford county, Pennsylvania and Montgomery county, Ohio. This also in a small part impacts the history of the early church in both the Carolinas, Virginia and western Pennsylvania. I am not the person to tell it, not coming from a purely academic strata of society, but nonetheless it should be told. Many of us of the Miami Valley of Ohio are aware, as related in the 1920 Southern District of Ohio book, that there was some problem relating to the Brethren of that region. It is specific in the region covered, at that time Montgomery county, but not as to the why. Those Brethren just loved to say nothing! We are left enough of their words to discern that the "unrest and dissent" was specifically between "namely Jacob Miller and David Ulrich and Johannes Greib". It was agreed by all parties involved that a committee of Elders from Virginia should be called for, likely thru a letter to Annual Meeting, to assist in settling the matter. What was the problem? We cannot say with any certainty what the problems are so we are therefore left to speculate. It is my belief that Elder Jacob Miller was a Pietist of the style most reminiscent of the earliest Brethren. This would in some camps be referred to as Frontier Brethren but even later are more aptly named the Far Western Brethren and can be termed as descendants in thought of the Pietists. As has been pointed out, the Frontier and Far Western Brethren primarily come from the Southern states and more on this later in my diatribe. Meanwhile Elders Grieb and Ulrich were what we can term as Annual Meeting Brethren and came from Bedford county, Pennsylvania. Where did Elder Miller possibly obtain his differing views on church polity? If our summations are correct about Elder Miller he was raised not in Franklin county, Pennsylvania but instead comes from that area of Pennsylvania influenced by the activities of Elder George Adam Martin. This assumption is based on Miller's brother, Tobias, being represented in the lists of the Coventry church as well as being married to one of the daughters of Christian Brower of the same church. Logically then Elder Jacob Miller did, at some time in his life, live in that region of Pennsylvania covered by the Coventry and Conestoga churches. And we cannot forget either the impact of Ephrata into this equation. Let us assume that Cooper was correct when he related to Merle that he had seen, written into an old church volume, that Elder Miller was raised to the Eldership by Martin while at the Stony Creek church of Brothers Valley. There is no proof as to the accuracy of this statement but in light of the activities that can be documented about Elder Miller there is the distinct possibility of this occurring. Remember, Elder Martin with many other Brethren from the Coventry and Conestoga churches, moved into the Conococheague and Antietam congregations in the mid-1740s. He, Elder Martin, then moved on into Cumberland county, Pennsylvania, before eventually moving into what became Bedford county and even later Somerset county. And those interested in Pennsylvania history really should read and study the list of attendees at the Redstone Meeting of 1768. This list of attendees impacts German Baptist history. Wayne Webb

I've been researching my mother's Slawson ancestry, a side of the family which could, I guess, have a Brethren connection I don't know about. Still I was surprised to receive a copy of an article from the LeMars (IA) Sentinel dated January 9, 1914, entitled "Pioneer Days in Plymouth. C M Hilliker of Akron Gives Some Interesting Early Day History." I didn't find Ira Chase in the ministerial lists of Brethren Encyclopedia, so I'm slightly skeptical that the newspaper article got the right denomination. (On the other hand, this would have been the half-uncle of my grandma, Eleanor Slawson, who had some kind of Brethren connection, because she got her teacher training at McPherson College when there were many closer schools she could have attended.) Here's what the paper says: "The winter of 1873 and 1874 was not severely cold, with very little snow. IRA CHASE, a Brethren minister from South Dakota, came to our neighborhood and opened a revival meeting in the school house. The elder was one of the 'hollering' kind. No person could go from the meeting and say that they did not hear what the preacher said, for he usually could be heard for one-half mile. Elder Chase was a good man as well as a good speaker. His sermons began to take effect. People came for miles from every direction. The school house could not hold one-half of the crowd. A collection was taken up, teams were dispatched for lumber, one end of the school house was moved out and the sides were built in to double its former size. All of this was done and not a meeting missed. Something over 80 people were converted or went to the mourner's bench. During one of the elder's sermons he designated the locality as Pleasant Valley, which name it carries to the present time. "It was at one of these meetings that Frank Moore, who was pastor of the Akron ME church a few years ago, was converted. At that time Frank lived with his parents, eight or nine miles down the Perry Creek. "Elder Chase was one of the early settlers in Dakota, having homesteaded about eight miles west and one mile north of Akron, and like the Plymouth county folks, was in very poor circumstances. These meetings made him many friends and were the means of bringing him and his family many of the necessaries of this life. These meetings also brought the people together. Donation parties were held, where all came with their offering, be it great or small, and somewhat different from the custom of today, inasmuch as they did not wait until bedtime but all went early and did not go home until morning. Another thing at these gatherings, all were on the level. There were no select parties, but one was as good as another and all shared alike. Everybody was everybody's friend and all enjoyed themselves." The lady who sent the clipping says LaMars is in Plymouth County, IA, in the northwest part of the state, and somewhat close to Dakota Territory. In the 1870 census, Ira and his wife are found in Floyd County, IA, and he is identified as a clergyman, but it doesn't say what brand. Ira's mother was my ggg grandmother, Rachel Fuller Chase Slawson. What are the odds this guy was actually Brethren? Jan T **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Merle, I have just found my records of the (2) boys. They are John E Burk, d. 13 Aug 1811, age 3m, 9d, son of U & S and Leander C Burk, d. 22 Aug 1811, age 3m, 18d, son of U & S At first glance it would appear that they are the sons of Ulick and Sarah, but since the date of death was 1811, that would be impossible. My grandfather said that Ulick came from a long line of "Ulicks", so it would appaear that perhaps the U would stand for Ulick (father of my Ulick, John E and Leander). I assume that John E and Leander were twins. Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <cliff@rtkonline.com> To: "BILL & CHRIS BURK" <bburkiii@earthlink.net>; <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Dunkard Church & Ulick BURK > Thank you for the information. This is the area of the Four Mile Church > of the Brethren, the Keffer Cemetery is located on properties originally > owned by the early Brethren (Jacob Kingery Sr, and Thomas Huston Jr. - > nearby were Isaac Lawshe (toward College Corner) and Martin Kingery (north > by Cottage Grove), the cemetery is named after the family of George > Keffer, who lived across the road south of it, and as I remember, owned > the land) he had bought Jacob Kingery's land, after his death in 1811). > There was a later church building at Keffer Cemetery. That building is now > a barn about a half mile east of the site. > I do not recognize the name of Ulick Burk, although I do know Brethren > with the name of Burk (not here on the Four Mile). I will do some > checking. Cottage Grove is where the railroad crosses US27. Keffer > Cemetery is slightly more than a half mile south of US 27, on the road a > half mile east of Cottage Grove. The road going strait east from Cottage > Grove went to the Lower Four Mile Church - 2 miles away. > > Most of these Brethren (Dunker) families, here at the Four Mile, came from > Franklin County Virginia, but most of them, or their parents, had moved to > there from Pennsylvania (Franklin Co/Lancaster Co) and Maryland (Frederick > Co/Washington Co), starting about 1770. > > The Lower Four Mile Church building was some 2 1/2 miles east and north > of the Keffer Cemetery. Its building was built about 1845, but a major > migration to Iowa in 1855 eventually closed its doors, and the church at > Keffer Cemetery replaced it. The date we had on the building at Keffer > Cemetery was about 1870, and likely was the one attended by your > grandfather. > > You have given a much earlier date for the Church at Keffer Cemetery than > I had found (the cemetery was very early, but not the church building), > and I am beginning to wonder if the original Lower Four Mile Church > building might have been the one actually referred to for Ulick Burk, and > not the one here in Keffer Cemetery. Yes, many burials of the Lower Four > Mile people were here at Keffer Cemetery, many of the Lower Four Mile > families lived west of the church, north of the Keffer Cemetery. > I do not know who owned the land of the Lower Four Mile Church when it was > built. It was about 2 miles north of College Corner OH - and about 1/2 > mile inside Indiana, it was on the west bank of Little Four Mile Creek. > The creek comes west from the Huston Woods State Park in Ohio, going just > north of College Corner, then it turns north for some 8-10 miles, with > both the Lower and the Upper Four Mile Churches build on or close to it. > > Samuel Kingery lived just east of the creek. Martin Kingery lived north > of the church, and John Garver lived south of it. Elder Daniel Miller > lived just west of Martin. The original road south followed the west bank > of Little Four Mile Creek into College Corner. Several years after the > church was built, that road was closed, and the present "Nine Mile Road" > was placed at one mile from the state line (or about 1/2 mile west of the > church). If this is the case, your grandfather, being young, did not > catch the fact of the two different churches, especially since the earlier > one had closed. Yes, those benches were/are hard. > > There are considerable Quakers in the area also -one early church (Salem) > is about three mile or so from the Keffer Cemetery, just west of Cottage > Grove. > > One help to me would be if you knew the exact location of the farm of > Ulick Burk here in Union Co IN. > I've done a book on the Four Mile Church (named: The Virginia Settlement), > at the Union County Library site > - www.union-county.lib.in.us/GenwebVA4mile/Table%20of%20Contents%204M.htm > It includes maps and pictures. > I live here, at Boston IN, and my wife's grandfather, and great > grandfather were the Elders of the Four Mile Church, she is a > Miller/Lybrook/Kingery descendent. > > Merle C Rummel > > >> My grandfather (1870-1957) wrote the following in his memoirs: >> "We attended church occasionally at a Dundard church built upon land >> given to them for church and burying ground by my grandfather Burk >> (Ulick), however, so far as I know neither of my grandparents were >> members of any religious denomination. These Dunkards were very fine >> citizens; loyal, hard working farmer men and women devoted to their >> religious customs. Men with long beards and women always dressing in >> somber non-revealing costume with ground touching skirts. The church >> seats were hard wooden benches and the sermon serious and quite long. >> Joining church with them was in baptism by total submersion, three times >> forward, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Many times I >> saw them break the ice on a nearby creek pool; then preacher wading waist >> deep, led the new comminunicants." >> >> He continues, >> "Grandfather Burk had the unusal given name of Ulick. He was of >> Pennsylvania Dutch-Irish stock, who came from that state in the early >> 1840's to settle in Indiana, married my grandmother Sarah Nicholas, and >> died at the age of 39 (1849)." >> >> Ulick Burk's land was near Cottage Grove, Union County, Indiana. He and >> his family are buried in the Keffer Cemetery, which is just west of the >> Burk property. >> >> My question is this: >> I haven't been able to find any records of Ulick Burk in the Penssylvania >> Dutch area of PA, nor have I been able to find much about him at all; so >> I was wondering if he may have had some connection to the Brethern >> (Dunkards) in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I can >> pursue his early records? >> > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: > 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM > > >

We have just updated our online database bringing our online total to now over 560,000 names. Most of the names are Brethren and Mennonite in origin. To take a look, please see: http://www.linkhitlist.com/cgi/LHL_E.exe?G2L&LinkNo=1456853&ListNo=30907 Thanks! Don & Jeanine Hartman FamilyHart http://familyhart.info Rootsweb List Admins for: Pennsylvania, PADutchGenONLY, Penna-Dutch, PAAdams, PAYork, PA-York-Gen, MD-Fred-Gen, MDWashin, Burket, Dierdorff, Gotshall, Glattfelder, Hartman, Kohr, Kaufman, Shirk, Sturm USGENWEB CCs for: Adams Co., PA; York Co., PA; Franklin Co., PA; Frederick Co., MD; Washington Co., MD