Thank you Now where did I get that they were in Muhlenberg Co KY? Oh, from John Dick Jr, who was a Brethren minister (wife was Anna Mary Donner). I do not have a death date for John Dick Sr (wife Elizabeth Roland, who was mentioned as possibly a daughter of Gasper Rowland [no Roland info] - John Dick Sr filed for divorce, "abandonment'). John Dick Sr was from Maryland to Carolina. His children went on to Kentucky, Illinois and Missouri - I have that he moved to Warren Co TN about 1820. There were a Samuel Danner Sr (born 25 Jun 1756 Chester Co PA - I have no death date for him, but his family Bible - a Sauer Bible is there) and then his son Samuel Danner Jr (1784-1857), who was a Brethren minister in Muhlenberg Co KY. Samuel Sr is the son of Jacob Danner, and married Anna Stoner/Steiner - of Coventry (PA), and likely Pipe Creek/Beaver Dam (MD). [Elder Jacob Danner, son of Michael Danner, moved to Israel Creek, near Frederick MD, on the Monocacy, as an earliest minister in Maryland. I am sure that it was his presence there, that led Michael Danner to mark the Monocacy Road from the Susquehanna River (York Co PA) to Frederick MD - and the source of that earliest major German migration path southward.] The Donner family migration does follow a pattern of some of those Brethren families that we had at Short Shun Creek (near Wilmore, Jessamine Creek now) in Jessamine Co KY. (But they were a migration party who had come from Washington Co MD - the Antietam.) While a group of them (Rohrers, Housers, Hoovers, Brunners, Arnspagers, ) came on to southern Ohio - Bullskin Creek, off the Ohio River in Clermont and Brown Cos - a number of them go on to Indiana (some directly from Jessamine, some via Clermont) - mostly Decatur, Ripley and Bartholomew Cos (or same and slightly north of where you mentioned). By then, 1820s, they were no longer Brethren, but had gone with the Revival and were mostly Disciples of Christ (the Bullskin Church went with the Revival, after the death of its first Elders - Abraham Houser and Stephen Bolender). A few of those children moved on to Illinois and Missouri. We had one church near there (that I know of), the Seymour Church (where my uncle, Floyd Breneman, preached for a while). It is in northern Jackson Co IN -just south of Bartholomew Co. Merle C Rummel > Merle and all, I have added a link to my Donner records on World Connect. > You will see most of my information has proof or at the least good evidence. > Merle, I having been reading everything I can find on the Danner's in > Muhlenberg, Ky. and the more I read and compare to what I have researched and > mainly what I have proven regarding my Donner family I am more and more convinced > there may not be a direct connection between the two families. I note that > Samuel Danner was born in 1784 and George Donner, Sr. was born in 1752 - > pretty big age gap for them to be brothers. George's birth date comes from his > obit, published in the Sangamo Journal in Springfield, Sangamon County, > Illinois. By 1817 George Sr., had left Jessamine county, Ky. and is paying tax in > Jefferson County, Indiana, along with him are sons, John, Tobias, and Jacob. > Son George (Capt. of the Donner Party), daughters Elizabeth, Lydia and > Susannah are in Decatur County, Ind. I have found no George Danner/Donner in > Muhlenberg. The only one who I have ever found in Muhlenberg is Ann Mary who > md. John Dick, Jr. I have only one piece of evidence that Ann Mary is their > daughter and that comes from a county history, which we all know are not > always reliable. Bottom line is perhaps she isn't the daughter of George Sr., and > Mary Huff Donner after all. > Tobias does move on to Ripley county, Indiana where he marries Nancy Bettis > in 1820, so the father and sons were in Jefferson, Decatur and Ripley counties > in Indiana before they moved on to central Illinois. Elizabeth and her > husband William Walters are the only ones who stay in Indiana. Do you know if > there were Brethren settlements in the early 1800's in those Indiana counties? > I have a lot of evidence concerning the family in Rowan County, N. C. and > Jessamine County, Kentucky, but absolutely nothing prior to Rowan County that I > can prove. I do believe, from the Records of the Moravians in N. C., that > George Sr.'s father was a Jacob, but which one I have no idea. I can also > prove from a will that George Sr., had a brother named Jacob. > Jo Ann Schmidt > >

Photos have been sent. .jpg @ 800 dpi

( I know the Brethren Heritage Center does, but I am requesting now a online version picture) Does anybody that have access to a scanner, happen to have the book on the Southwestern Ohio Brethren History book that has the picture of Rev.  Tobias Kreider (1826-1902) and wife Lydia Welbaum (1827-1902)?  Also has picture in there of son Rev.  Lawrence Kreider (1871-1955).  I do not have Tobias's picture in my collection, because another going back has it  I do not have access to scanner, but somebody might.  I have other pictured from that book, but not Kreider's.  Thanks.   Please email off of List- hawkwind275@yahoo.com

Dwayne, You are so right! I was working from memory, which obviously isn't what it once was. There is a big age gap between Ann Mary and the next child, but that could mean there were others we don't know about or others who died. Thanks for reminding me. Jo Ann **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Jo Ann, There is more evidence that Mary [Donner] Dick was the daughter of George Donner Sr. As you know, the 1787 Rowan County tax records listed Valentine Huff, George Donner Sr, and John Dick Sr, one after the other, as neighbors on Bear Creek in the Forks of the Yadkin. Also, as you know, Mary [Donner] Dick lived in the 1830s and 1840s next to her sisters on farms on Sugar Creek in what is now Thayer Village, Auburn Township, Sangamon County, Illinois. Dwayne Wrightsman ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jschm21735@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:06 PM Subject: [BRE] Donner/Danner Family > Merle and all, I have added a link to my Donner records on World > Connect. > You will see most of my information has proof or at the least good > evidence. > Merle, I having been reading everything I can find on the Danner's in > Muhlenberg, Ky. and the more I read and compare to what I have researched > and > mainly what I have proven regarding my Donner family I am more and more > convinced > there may not be a direct connection between the two families. I note > that > Samuel Danner was born in 1784 and George Donner, Sr. was born in 1752 - > pretty big age gap for them to be brothers. George's birth date comes > from his > obit, published in the Sangamo Journal in Springfield, Sangamon County, > Illinois. By 1817 George Sr., had left Jessamine county, Ky. and is > paying tax in > Jefferson County, Indiana, along with him are sons, John, Tobias, and > Jacob. > Son George (Capt. of the Donner Party), daughters Elizabeth, Lydia and > Susannah are in Decatur County, Ind. I have found no George Danner/Donner > in > Muhlenberg. The only one who I have ever found in Muhlenberg is Ann > Mary who > md. John Dick, Jr. I have only one piece of evidence that Ann Mary is > their > daughter and that comes from a county history, which we all know are not > always reliable. Bottom line is perhaps she isn't the daughter of George > Sr., and > Mary Huff Donner after all. > Tobias does move on to Ripley county, Indiana where he marries Nancy > Bettis > in 1820, so the father and sons were in Jefferson, Decatur and Ripley > counties > in Indiana before they moved on to central Illinois. Elizabeth and her > husband William Walters are the only ones who stay in Indiana. Do you > know if > there were Brethren settlements in the early 1800's in those Indiana > counties? > I have a lot of evidence concerning the family in Rowan County, N. C. and > Jessamine County, Kentucky, but absolutely nothing prior to Rowan County > that I > can prove. I do believe, from the Records of the Moravians in N. C., that > George Sr.'s father was a Jacob, but which one I have no idea. I can also > prove from a will that George Sr., had a brother named Jacob. > Jo Ann Schmidt > > _RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Joe Ann Brant Family File_ > (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=joannbrandt&id=I1334)

Merle and all, I have added a link to my Donner records on World Connect. You will see most of my information has proof or at the least good evidence. Merle, I having been reading everything I can find on the Danner's in Muhlenberg, Ky. and the more I read and compare to what I have researched and mainly what I have proven regarding my Donner family I am more and more convinced there may not be a direct connection between the two families. I note that Samuel Danner was born in 1784 and George Donner, Sr. was born in 1752 - pretty big age gap for them to be brothers. George's birth date comes from his obit, published in the Sangamo Journal in Springfield, Sangamon County, Illinois. By 1817 George Sr., had left Jessamine county, Ky. and is paying tax in Jefferson County, Indiana, along with him are sons, John, Tobias, and Jacob. Son George (Capt. of the Donner Party), daughters Elizabeth, Lydia and Susannah are in Decatur County, Ind. I have found no George Danner/Donner in Muhlenberg. The only one who I have ever found in Muhlenberg is Ann Mary who md. John Dick, Jr. I have only one piece of evidence that Ann Mary is their daughter and that comes from a county history, which we all know are not always reliable. Bottom line is perhaps she isn't the daughter of George Sr., and Mary Huff Donner after all. Tobias does move on to Ripley county, Indiana where he marries Nancy Bettis in 1820, so the father and sons were in Jefferson, Decatur and Ripley counties in Indiana before they moved on to central Illinois. Elizabeth and her husband William Walters are the only ones who stay in Indiana. Do you know if there were Brethren settlements in the early 1800's in those Indiana counties? I have a lot of evidence concerning the family in Rowan County, N. C. and Jessamine County, Kentucky, but absolutely nothing prior to Rowan County that I can prove. I do believe, from the Records of the Moravians in N. C., that George Sr.'s father was a Jacob, but which one I have no idea. I can also prove from a will that George Sr., had a brother named Jacob. Jo Ann Schmidt _RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Joe Ann Brant Family File_ (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=joannbrandt&id=I1334) **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Thanks - I was not aware of the English complaint - I do think that David Martin is the son of George Adam Martin - - I would have real problems with David being of English origin my reasoning hinges a lot on the fact that he became such a leading Brethren Elder - seemingly early - at least by the time of the Revolution - - - 1754 to South Carolina (David - 17 years old) - 1759, minister of earliest church there (David - 22 years old) - - - 1770 ordained (by Nicholas Martin/Daniel Leatherman) - likely he knew and spoke German - even though much of the early church in the south is noted as having used considerable English - - most of the Brethren migration to the Carolinas (7th Day and 1st Day) was from Pennsylvania - German speaking, although capable in English - remember - this is only 40 some years after Alexander Mack brought the second shipload of Brethren to this Continent - - - - (well, migration to SC was c1750 - 20 years after Alexander Mack's shipload) - - so combine a move to the distant south - with a top leading position among those distant Brethren -almost requires someone of the early Brethren - - - I suspect that George Adam was involved in that earliest church in Newberry Co SC - and David being minister! - - and David's faith was that of the moderate Pietists - where George Adam was a major leader - - - David seems not to be a 7th Day Baptist, although he was seemingly much involved with the local Sabbatarians - David shows the same kind of capabilities as George Adam - broad acceptance/leadership among a number of church groups - then connecting the local names of George Jr/James/John/Elijah - presumed to also be sons of George Adam My problem still comes at the age of Mary (Knepper) Martin (b. c1725), and the birth of David (b. 1737) - Mary was about 12 years old!!! - and her parents were married c22 Feb 1723 - so her birth is approximately correct! could it be possible that George Adam Martin (b. 1712) had an earlier wife? per Floyd Mallott, Studies in Brethren History (includes - Ephrata Chronicle - George Adam Martin autobiography) George Adam Martin -was first minister at the Big Conewago Church - - - interest in religion - 1733 (21 years old) - - at Great Swamp Meeting -with Conrad Biessel - 1737 - - united as member at Conewago - 1735/- - ordained - 1739/- - elder - 1741 - - sent to Moravian Synod -as Brethren representative (by Elder Martin Urner) - 1742 (effort at union of German Churches - Count Zinzendorf -leader of Moravians) - - c1760 - Bermudian Church - York Co PA - - c1762 - Antietam Valley (vicinity of Snow Hill Cloisters) - - to Brothers Valley - 1763-4 nothing on date of deaconship - normally required before ordination customary - married before deaconship/certainly before ordination (I'm not sure of these customs back in those earliest days). David's birth date is OK - for records of George Adam Martin - I have a possible dozen children for George Adam (no good proof - few dates) Merle C Rummel >> - and as far as I know - we do not really have proof that David is a son >> of George Adam. >> > > I've given talks where I've mentioned David Martin, and when I do I say: > "the evidence points more toward David Martin being of English descent who > became associated with the Brethren; but the story that he was the son of > George Adam Martin is a much more compelling and interesting story - and since > the difference between the proof of the evidence is slight, I personally go > with the much more compelling story " (and then I go on to explain who GAM > was....) > > > the slight proof of his being English, is the complaint by some Brethren in > the circa 1770s (sorry for not including the actual complaint) of the > English taking over the Brethren in the western South Carolina; and a > non-documented listing of David Martin's parents (who wasn't GAM) in an early 20th century > Newberry book. > steven rowe >

Thanks so very much for this update. My Best, Iris On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 5:05 PM, James Shuman <jshuman@telis.org> wrote: > At 9:54 am -0500 7/12/08, Iris Wilde wrote: > >I tried to send some updated information in on the Ira D. Cripe family > >complete with his parents info as this seems so hard to come by. I don't > see > >it on here. I will resend if there is interest in this information. > Thanks, > >Iris Cripe-Wilde > > > > For Iris and all other gmail subscribers, please be aware that you > will need to check the archives to find out whether your message > "made it" to the List. The gmail service discards incoming messages > in which the sender and receiver are the same, meaning you will not > receive a copy of your postings to Rootsweb lists. > > That is one reason we include the link to the archives on all our messages: > > > ------------------------ > >Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > > ------------------------ > > We advise that you wait a few hours before making a second posting, > even if you don't see yours in the archives, as it sometimes takes a > little while to get things up to date. > > -- > > __________________________ > James Shuman, Co-Moderator > jshuman@telis.org > __________________________ > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 7/14/2008 8:48:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cliff@rtkonline.com writes: >- and as far as I know - we do not really have proof that David is a son >of George Adam. I've given talks where I've mentioned David Martin, and when I do I say: "the evidence points more toward David Martin being of English descent who became associated with the Brethren; but the story that he was the son of George Adam Martin is a much more compelling and interesting story - and since the difference between the proof of the evidence is slight, I personally go with the much more compelling story " (and then I go on to explain who GAM was....) the slight proof of his being English, is the complaint by some Brethren in the circa 1770s (sorry for not including the actual complaint) of the English taking over the Brethren in the western South Carolina; and a non-documented listing of David Martin's parents (who wasn't GAM) in an early 20th century Newberry book. Since my interest in the David Martin family is not Genealogy - but rather influence, tradition, and theology; I have good reasons not to try to solve that mystery. On the otherhand, I would like to know what religious views his children and grandchildren had, and what migration route they went on...... steven rowe **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

>From the June 19, 1903, McLouth (KS) Times (paragraphing added): "George W Teeters was born in Bradfort county, Pa., Feb. 7 1841. He went to Iowa when six years of age. In 1862 he married Phoebe C Winders. "In 1872 he moved to Kansas, and has resided in or near Onaga, until his death on June 3, 1903. "To Mr and Mrs Teeters were born eight children, all of whom have reached manhood and womanhood. These children are three sons, Francis, Samuel and George, and five daughters, Mrs Eliza Ehler, Mrs May Fields, Mrs Minnie Shanlep, Mrs Katie Brownlee and Miss Agnes Teeters. These children with their families and the devoted wife live to mourn the loss of father and husband. "Religiously, Mr Teeters and family are of the German faith known as Dunkards. Mr Teeters lived, as all will testify, an honest upright life, and was an exemplary husband and a wise and loving father. "Mr Teeters was one of twelve children, four of whom are still living, Mrs Brown Garrett of McLouth being one of the sisters, and Mrs Lib Alford, of Oklahoma, the other sister. Two brothers live near Onaga." A four-verse poem follows in the newspaper. Jan T **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Please ramble Merle.....when you do we learn! Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <cliff@rtkonline.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Martin > Thank you very much - no these are not proved - > and at this date, I do not remember where I found these leads, can't > even find an original recording for it - just a note I had passed on. > Somewhere I had a connection of David Martin, with brothers who had gone > south > - and as far as I know - we do not really have proof that David is a son > of George Adam. > > One thing I noticed on World Connect (thanks, again, to Gale for showing > me it) - and these are far from absolute dates - > The marriage of George Adam Martin and Mary Knepper is estimated as > About 1745 - > David is given birth as 1737 > Mary Knepper is given birth as About 1725 (George Adam is given birth > as 1712 -so considerably older). > > The dates bring problems - > Mary's birth date is approximately correct- > the Knepper family is prominent in Brethren history - her parents were > married in 1723 in Holland > a brother, Peter, married a sister, Elizabeth, of George Adam > a brother-in-law, John Horn (wife Catherine), assisted George Adam in > his ministry travels (lodging etc). > > Knepper Meeting House - family - on the Antietam in Franklin Co PA - has > to be very close to Snow Hill Cloisters > (been to Snow Hill, didn't know much then about the Kneppers) > and George Adam Martin has connections to Snow Hill > > better stop - I'm rambling > Merle > > > > > > > this means that the John from Abbeville county are the one believed > > (proved?) to be the son of George Adams Martin? and likely the James as well? > > > > steven rowe > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you very much - no these are not proved - and at this date, I do not remember where I found these leads, can't even find an original recording for it - just a note I had passed on. Somewhere I had a connection of David Martin, with brothers who had gone south - and as far as I know - we do not really have proof that David is a son of George Adam. One thing I noticed on World Connect (thanks, again, to Gale for showing me it) - and these are far from absolute dates - The marriage of George Adam Martin and Mary Knepper is estimated as About 1745 - David is given birth as 1737 Mary Knepper is given birth as About 1725 (George Adam is given birth as 1712 -so considerably older). The dates bring problems - Mary's birth date is approximately correct- the Knepper family is prominent in Brethren history - her parents were married in 1723 in Holland a brother, Peter, married a sister, Elizabeth, of George Adam a brother-in-law, John Horn (wife Catherine), assisted George Adam in his ministry travels (lodging etc). Knepper Meeting House - family - on the Antietam in Franklin Co PA - has to be very close to Snow Hill Cloisters (been to Snow Hill, didn't know much then about the Kneppers) and George Adam Martin has connections to Snow Hill better stop - I'm rambling Merle > > this means that the John from Abbeville county are the one believed > (proved?) to be the son of George Adams Martin? and likely the James as well? > > steven rowe > > >

>I find none of the identified children of George Adam Martin going to >Kentucky, let alone, Muhlenberg Co KY > about half of them go to South Carolina (Newberry Co [David and >George Jr] and Ninety-Six District [James and John]) > - or Georgia (Jones Co [Elijah]) > - the only one who went west seems to be Maryem, who married >Stephen Hill in 1784, and moved to Delaware Co OH there are 7 James Martin in the SC 1790 census - two in what was the 96 district (one in Edgefield county and one in Abbeville county). there were 13 John Martins in SC - the 96 district Johns would be Captain John in Edgefield county, one in Abbeville county, two in Laurens, One of the John Martins in Laurens County is the son of Daniel Martin (and moved away in the early 1800s) one of the James and one of the Johns is generally considered to be sons of Abraham Martin (a scots-irish family). Those are the ones from Edgefield county. . this means that the John from Abbeville county are the one believed (proved?) to be the son of George Adams Martin? and likely the James as well? steven rowe **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Re: Stump/Kimmel/Martin I should have stressed when I commented on Wayne's comment that I was making a general point about what Wayne said, and did not intend to question Merle's work in regard to the subject or any of his other work. Merle has been doing this for a long time, and knows how to do things the right way. He has been clear as to areas he had questions, and identifies his sources. I apologize for not being clear as to what I was commenting on. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Merle C Rummel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:20 PM To: brethren@rootsweb.com; Mary Elizabeth Stump Subject: Re: [BRE] Stump, Kimmel, Martin, et al I was making a point about this Rachel Martin yes, she married Francis Stump, a Brethren Minister (possibly Elder) - and we do not know much about him - was he in Brothers Valley (where George Adam Martin lived)? - or in Westmoreland Co? - several of the sources on him stated his origin in "Cumberland Co PA (now Mifflin)." - yes, some say "Germantown" also - if she is the Rachel Martin, daughter of Eberhard Martin (died c1784 Cumberland Co PA -Mifflin) - then two of her sisters moved to Muhlenberg Co KY - one of them (Gilbert Vaught/Mary Martin) were with the first Brethren migraiton with Capt Henry Rhoads - in 1785 - the other (John Vaught/Elizabeth Martin) following, "a couple years later" Rachel Martin - and Francis Stump came to Muhlenberg Co probably in 1797 or 1798 (only son Frederick -murdered on Green River, 1799) Elizabeth Stump (e-mail 12 Nov 2007) stated that Francis Stump's will named Rachel as daughter of George Adam Martin - could someone verify this? she mentions a book by Julia Cook Guice: "Frederick Stump, The Best of the Story" - is this book possibly available? I find none of the identified children of George Adam Martin going to Kentucky, let alone, Muhlenberg Co KY about half of them go to South Carolina (Newberry Co [David and George Jr] and Ninety-Six District [James and John]) - or Georgia (Jones Co [Elijah]) - the only one who went west seems to be Maryem, who married Stephen Hill in 1784, and moved to Delaware Co OH so - for "community" - there is not a connection of Rachel to George Adam Martin - there IS a connection of Rachel to Eberhard Martin - and the various researchers give different parentage for each - so they are not brothers. the second point about this Rachel Martin/Francis Stump family - there seem to have been 4 children (not including the David Washabaugh Jr - who changed his name to Stump) - the only son - Frederick - was "brutally murdered" while fishing on the Green River - in 1799 -there were three daughters - and I will accept their names as Elizabeth (c1790), Mary (c1792) and Barbara (c1794) they are identified as (and had I accepted these marriages - until I began to check the Muhlenberg area data -on community and churches) Elizabeth marrying John Vought (note the letter difference - a/o in Vaught/Vought) Mary marrying Gilbert Vought Barbara marrying a Frampton but - John Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY in 1785, was married to Elizabeth Martin, dau of Eberhard Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son John - married Mary Hunsinger in 1818 - and went to Butler Co KS Gilbert did not have a son John and - Gilbert Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY possibly 1788, was married to Mary Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son Gilbert - married Mary Adams in 1839 (lived in Muhlenberg Co KY) John did not have a son Gilbert [John and Gilbert are identified as brothers - from Washington Co MD, possibly via Washington Co PA] and - in tracing back on Eberhard Martin - he did have a daughter Barbara - Anna Barbara - who in 1780 married a John Frampton John Frampton was in the Cumberland Co Militia, Rangers, Col Alexander Brown in the Revolution (Indian battles) and John and Anna Barbara went to Beaver Co PA - not to Muhlenberg Co KY (I found no Framptons in Muhlenberg Co KY) my question then becomes - what information do we have on the children of Rachel Martin and Francis Stump I think there is a mis-identificaiton of who they married - I think Rachel Martin is not the daughter of George Adam Martin (if he even had a daughter, Rachel -which is not certain) ALSO - these Kentucky families were not essentially Anabaptists - yes, the Anabaptists emphasized "Community" but most of these "Frontier Brethren" were Pietists, with only the "trine immersion" being of Anabaptist belief (and "trine immersion" was not a true Anabaptist belief- it was Brethren - the Anabaptists believed in "Adult Baptism" - not necessarily "immersion") there were family connections for migration - but one of the problems the Annual Meeting Elders had with these Frontier Brethren and their Pietism, was that they were "open" and Not "closed community" the Pietists (and the Kentucky "Frontier Brethren") did not "separate themselves from the world" ("closed community") - like the Brethren and Mennonites ("back east") did during and after the American Revolution Merle C Rummel > The likely hood of someone marrying a spouse who lived many days travel from > the other is small. The typical marriage in those days was between > neighbors or blood relatives who also lived near by. Many of my Anabaptist > ancestors were second and third cousins and centuries of intermarriage among > the Amish community has exposed them to health issues that most people don't > have to deal with. > > Anabaptist theology dictated that they live and socialize among like minded > Anabaptists. This resulted in the development of Anabaptist communities, > and when migrations occurred it was typically in groups, as opposed to > individuals. You see this in the ship Allen, but also in passages of Amish > and Mennonites. It is rare to find a lone Amish or Mennonite family > traveling alone. In addition, marrying outside the Anabaptist community was > not encouraged. ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was making a point about this Rachel Martin yes, she married Francis Stump, a Brethren Minister (possibly Elder) - and we do not know much about him - was he in Brothers Valley (where George Adam Martin lived)? - or in Westmoreland Co? - several of the sources on him stated his origin in "Cumberland Co PA (now Mifflin)." - yes, some say "Germantown" also - if she is the Rachel Martin, daughter of Eberhard Martin (died c1784 Cumberland Co PA -Mifflin) - then two of her sisters moved to Muhlenberg Co KY - one of them (Gilbert Vaught/Mary Martin) were with the first Brethren migraiton with Capt Henry Rhoads - in 1785 - the other (John Vaught/Elizabeth Martin) following, "a couple years later" Rachel Martin - and Francis Stump came to Muhlenberg Co probably in 1797 or 1798 (only son Frederick -murdered on Green River, 1799) Elizabeth Stump (e-mail 12 Nov 2007) stated that Francis Stump's will named Rachel as daughter of George Adam Martin - could someone verify this? she mentions a book by Julia Cook Guice: "Frederick Stump, The Best of the Story" - is this book possibly available? I find none of the identified children of George Adam Martin going to Kentucky, let alone, Muhlenberg Co KY about half of them go to South Carolina (Newberry Co [David and George Jr] and Ninety-Six District [James and John]) - or Georgia (Jones Co [Elijah]) - the only one who went west seems to be Maryem, who married Stephen Hill in 1784, and moved to Delaware Co OH so - for "community" - there is not a connection of Rachel to George Adam Martin - there IS a connection of Rachel to Eberhard Martin - and the various researchers give different parentage for each - so they are not brothers. the second point about this Rachel Martin/Francis Stump family - there seem to have been 4 children (not including the David Washabaugh Jr - who changed his name to Stump) - the only son - Frederick - was "brutally murdered" while fishing on the Green River - in 1799 -there were three daughters - and I will accept their names as Elizabeth (c1790), Mary (c1792) and Barbara (c1794) they are identified as (and had I accepted these marriages - until I began to check the Muhlenberg area data -on community and churches) Elizabeth marrying John Vought (note the letter difference - a/o in Vaught/Vought) Mary marrying Gilbert Vought Barbara marrying a Frampton but - John Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY in 1785, was married to Elizabeth Martin, dau of Eberhard Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son John - married Mary Hunsinger in 1818 - and went to Butler Co KS Gilbert did not have a son John and - Gilbert Vaught, who went to Muhlenberg Co KY possibly 1788, was married to Mary Martin, sister of Rachel Martin their son Gilbert - married Mary Adams in 1839 (lived in Muhlenberg Co KY) John did not have a son Gilbert [John and Gilbert are identified as brothers - from Washington Co MD, possibly via Washington Co PA] and - in tracing back on Eberhard Martin - he did have a daughter Barbara - Anna Barbara - who in 1780 married a John Frampton John Frampton was in the Cumberland Co Militia, Rangers, Col Alexander Brown in the Revolution (Indian battles) and John and Anna Barbara went to Beaver Co PA - not to Muhlenberg Co KY (I found no Framptons in Muhlenberg Co KY) my question then becomes - what information do we have on the children of Rachel Martin and Francis Stump I think there is a mis-identificaiton of who they married - I think Rachel Martin is not the daughter of George Adam Martin (if he even had a daughter, Rachel -which is not certain) ALSO - these Kentucky families were not essentially Anabaptists - yes, the Anabaptists emphasized "Community" but most of these "Frontier Brethren" were Pietists, with only the "trine immersion" being of Anabaptist belief (and "trine immersion" was not a true Anabaptist belief- it was Brethren - the Anabaptists believed in "Adult Baptism" - not necessarily "immersion") there were family connections for migration - but one of the problems the Annual Meeting Elders had with these Frontier Brethren and their Pietism, was that they were "open" and Not "closed community" the Pietists (and the Kentucky "Frontier Brethren") did not "separate themselves from the world" ("closed community") - like the Brethren and Mennonites ("back east") did during and after the American Revolution Merle C Rummel > The likely hood of someone marrying a spouse who lived many days travel from > the other is small. The typical marriage in those days was between > neighbors or blood relatives who also lived near by. Many of my Anabaptist > ancestors were second and third cousins and centuries of intermarriage among > the Amish community has exposed them to health issues that most people don't > have to deal with. > > Anabaptist theology dictated that they live and socialize among like minded > Anabaptists. This resulted in the development of Anabaptist communities, > and when migrations occurred it was typically in groups, as opposed to > individuals. You see this in the ship Allen, but also in passages of Amish > and Mennonites. It is rare to find a lone Amish or Mennonite family > traveling alone. In addition, marrying outside the Anabaptist community was > not encouraged.

At 9:54 am -0500 7/12/08, Iris Wilde wrote: >I tried to send some updated information in on the Ira D. Cripe family >complete with his parents info as this seems so hard to come by. I don't see >it on here. I will resend if there is interest in this information. Thanks, >Iris Cripe-Wilde > For Iris and all other gmail subscribers, please be aware that you will need to check the archives to find out whether your message "made it" to the List. The gmail service discards incoming messages in which the sender and receiver are the same, meaning you will not receive a copy of your postings to Rootsweb lists. That is one reason we include the link to the archives on all our messages: > ------------------------ >Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ We advise that you wait a few hours before making a second posting, even if you don't see yours in the archives, as it sometimes takes a little while to get things up to date. -- __________________________ James Shuman, Co-Moderator jshuman@telis.org __________________________

Wayne and others who may be interested, I enjoyed reading your three part article and basically understand what your are writing about. I have not found any of my own ancestors as Brethren. Some of those ancestors whose religious affiliation I have been able to document are Reformed Lutheran. But, I am very curious because they and others follow the same migratory path, during the same decades, through Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio as the Brethren. And through family oral history and cultural aspects, i.e., general belief system, cooking, other folkways, the lifestyle is very similar to lifestyle of the Brethren. I have a suspicion that there may have been marriages between documented RL and Brethren individuals. Can you speak to that? One of the problems I have, since I am not steeped in Brethren history, is with placement of churches/congregations, since they are referred to by place names - but no counties or states. Is there a map anywhere of the states with an overlay of Brethren congregations? Thanks to you Wayne, Merle, and others for your dedication and for providing interesting reading and information. Regards, Jan Researching: WEAVER/WEBER - OSWALT - TREASTER - HERSHEY - YOUNG - STOVER and more. **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Wayne makes important points regarding geography and community. The likely hood of someone marrying a spouse who lived many days travel from the other is small. The typical marriage in those days was between neighbors or blood relatives who also lived near by. Many of my Anabaptist ancestors were second and third cousins and centuries of intermarriage among the Amish community has exposed them to health issues that most people don't have to deal with. Anabaptist theology dictated that they live and socialize among like minded Anabaptists. This resulted in the development of Anabaptist communities, and when migrations occurred it was typically in groups, as opposed to individuals. You see this in the ship Allen, but also in passages of Amish and Mennonites. It is rare to find a lone Amish or Mennonite family traveling alone. In addition, marrying outside the Anabaptist community was not encouraged. You still see that community philosophy today with the Amish. In the last ten years or so, an Amish community moved into the area I live in, purchasing a number of farms so a group of families could migrate to together. When you see claims on genealogies that go outside the norm that should bring out the yellow caution flag. Of course you need to study up to understand what the norm was to recognize deviations. When you see deviations from the norm, you need to start digging into the records and find out the real truth. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of foot work, and is not something you can do sitting at a computer screen. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Webb Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:19 AM To: Brethren Mailing List Subject: [BRE] Stump, Kimmel, Martin, et al Morning List, I wish to add my two cent's worth on the topic Merle began while speaking of the Kentucky Brethren. I do not research in that region, not having original documentation from which to draw, but some observations can be made. There seems to be a point of contention as to who Rachel Martin was the daughter of. I believe this can be easily solved. Look on a map and locate Mifflin county, Pennsylvania. Then locate Somerset county. They are not close to each other. Now in your mind ask yourself this question. Would, in the late 1700's, a young girl have become associated with a man from a distant county? Likely not. Neither if logic prevails would she and her husband (Francis Stump) have been settling in Kentucky around others from another county in Pennsylvania. They would have settled among those they knew. Agreeably this is not proof either way or another, but it is all that we have without actual documentation from Kentucky or Pennsylvania. I wish also to point out that George Adam Martin, an interesting man by all accounts, is not an easy man to document. I have yet to discover any individual who has original documentation. A lot of people have references to those records or stories from World Connect, but no one has that documentation. I do have somewhere in this disaster area a copy of the Ephrata Christ... Biblio... but don't ask me where it is. I think I published it, or intended to do so, but do not recall if I ever did so. That being said I have looked in both Somerset and Bedford county to no avail. I find his nephew John, also a minister, but nothing for George Adam himself. Whether or not there is anything in Westmoreland county I cannot say but it would be interesting to know of any documentation in that county. We can place him there by records other than Cooper's writings, Redstone Meeting, but as to any official records I have heard no mention. I do wish to point out something to the general populace. If you want some background information on the Stump, Kimmel and Martin families, admittedly from a German Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) church aspect I would recommend locating a copy of the Adams County 18th Century Church Records book. There are names listed in it that will be of interest to those interested in Brethren and general history of both Bedford and Somerset counties. In closing I will state that though Cooper leaves a lot to be disired in all of his writings we must at least use it as a starting point, presuming it has some merit in truth, and make a strident effort to document his statements. Ans there is a connection between George Adam Martin's son David, through David's wife, back to the Allen of 1729. Wayne Webb ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Re: Montgomery County Stumps This group of Stumps appears to have generated from George Stump, which the one biography notes emigrated from Georgia prior to Kentucky, before the family ended up in Montgomery County. If that is correct, that doesn't mesh well with the Francis Stump line, which came from Pennsylvania. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Scism Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:45 AM To: brethren@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRE] Stump, Kimmel, Martin, et al Just working on the Montgomery County, Indiana Site this morning, and did a couple of Stump obits. (George Stump Family out of Kentucky) So If anyone is looking to trace this family some information will be shortly uploaded at http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/s/ Scroll down for the surnames of your needs...:) Thanks Wayne, Dwight and Merle for all you folks post here, it is all very interesting and useful. Jeff Scism Wayne Webb wrote: > Morning List, > > I wish to add my two cent's worth on the topic Merle began while speaking of the Kentucky Brethren. I do not research in that region, not having original documentation from which to draw, but some observations can be made. > > There seems to be a point of contention as to who Rachel Martin was the daughter of. I believe this can be easily solved. Look on a map and locate Mifflin county, Pennsylvania. Then locate Somerset county. They are not close to each other. Now in your mind ask yourself this question. Would, in the late 1700's, a young girl have become associated with a man from a distant county? Likely not. > > Neither if logic prevails would she and her husband (Francis Stump) have been settling in Kentucky around others from another county in Pennsylvania. They would have settled among those they knew. Agreeably this is not proof either way or another, but it is all that we have without actual documentation from Kentucky or Pennsylvania. > > I wish also to point out that George Adam Martin, an interesting man by all accounts, is not an easy man to document. I have yet to discover any individual who has original documentation. A lot of people have references to those records or stories from World Connect, but no one has that documentation. I do have somewhere in this disaster area a copy of the Ephrata Christ... Biblio... but don't ask me where it is. I think I published it, or intended to do so, but do not recall if I ever did so. > > That being said I have looked in both Somerset and Bedford county to no avail. I find his nephew John, also a minister, but nothing for George Adam himself. Whether or not there is anything in Westmoreland county I cannot say but it would be interesting to know of any documentation in that county. We can place him there by records other than Cooper's writings, Redstone Meeting, but as to any official records I have heard no mention. > > I do wish to point out something to the general populace. If you want some background information on the Stump, Kimmel and Martin families, admittedly from a German Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) church aspect I would recommend locating a copy of the Adams County 18th Century Church Records book. There are names listed in it that will be of interest to those interested in Brethren and general history of both Bedford and Somerset counties. > > In closing I will state that though Cooper leaves a lot to be disired in all of his writings we must at least use it as a starting point, presuming it has some merit in truth, and make a strident effort to document his statements. Ans there is a connection between George Adam Martin's son David, through David's wife, back to the Allen of 1729. > > Wayne Webb > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1546 - Release Date: 7/11/2008 6:47 AM > > > > -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~ "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in its effect towards supporting free and good government." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Trustees for the Lottery of East Tennessee College, 6 May 1810) Reference: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Washington, ed., vol. 5 (521) Visit http://ibssg.org/blacksheep/ For the Intl. Blacksheep Society of Genealogists website Putnam County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inputnam/ Montgomery County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/ Fountain County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/infountain/ ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Morning List, I wish to add my two cent's worth on the topic Merle began while speaking of the Kentucky Brethren. I do not research in that region, not having original documentation from which to draw, but some observations can be made. There seems to be a point of contention as to who Rachel Martin was the daughter of. I believe this can be easily solved. Look on a map and locate Mifflin county, Pennsylvania. Then locate Somerset county. They are not close to each other. Now in your mind ask yourself this question. Would, in the late 1700's, a young girl have become associated with a man from a distant county? Likely not. Neither if logic prevails would she and her husband (Francis Stump) have been settling in Kentucky around others from another county in Pennsylvania. They would have settled among those they knew. Agreeably this is not proof either way or another, but it is all that we have without actual documentation from Kentucky or Pennsylvania. I wish also to point out that George Adam Martin, an interesting man by all accounts, is not an easy man to document. I have yet to discover any individual who has original documentation. A lot of people have references to those records or stories from World Connect, but no one has that documentation. I do have somewhere in this disaster area a copy of the Ephrata Christ... Biblio... but don't ask me where it is. I think I published it, or intended to do so, but do not recall if I ever did so. That being said I have looked in both Somerset and Bedford county to no avail. I find his nephew John, also a minister, but nothing for George Adam himself. Whether or not there is anything in Westmoreland county I cannot say but it would be interesting to know of any documentation in that county. We can place him there by records other than Cooper's writings, Redstone Meeting, but as to any official records I have heard no mention. I do wish to point out something to the general populace. If you want some background information on the Stump, Kimmel and Martin families, admittedly from a German Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) church aspect I would recommend locating a copy of the Adams County 18th Century Church Records book. There are names listed in it that will be of interest to those interested in Brethren and general history of both Bedford and Somerset counties. In closing I will state that though Cooper leaves a lot to be disired in all of his writings we must at least use it as a starting point, presuming it has some merit in truth, and make a strident effort to document his statements. Ans there is a connection between George Adam Martin's son David, through David's wife, back to the Allen of 1729. Wayne Webb