Dwayne, Thanks for posting this. I was not aware of the second gravestone in Illinois, and knew only of the one in Virginia (from correspondence with Lowell Beachler.) I will add your information to my database. I would imagine that the Illinois gravesite is more likely to be where she was buried, simply out of common practice. It is very common for a spouse's stone to be put in place when the first of a couple dies, and the date of death added later, but it would be uncommon for children who lived far away to install another stone near them above an empty gravesite, and then send their mother's body back to the homestead for actual burial. But of course this is all just surmisal. (I am not related to either Salome or Henry, but they are in my database because four of their children married various cousins of mine, and both of the wives of Jacob Brubaker, son of Henry and his first wife Elizabeth Christina Flora, were also related to me.) http://tpettit.best.vwh.net/family/grisso/FG01/FG01_440.htm -----Original Message----- From: brethren-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Sat 7/19/2008 8:01 PM To: brubaker@rootsweb.com; brethren@rootsweb.com; G Frazier; roanoke@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRE] Where was Salome Eller Brubaker (1785-1882) REALLY buried??? Salome Eller Brubaker (1785-1882) was the second wife of Henry Brubaker (1775-1848) of Roanoke County, Virginia. In her old age she lived with her adult children in Virginia, but also with those of her children in Macoupin County, Illinois, who had moved north. She apparently sent and received letters to and from her children while in their absence. She was mother to eleven children, nine of whom survived her. Her name appeared in the 1880 census as living in both states (with son Isaac in Roanoke, VA, and with daughter Magdalena in Macoupin, IL). She died May 7, 1882, at the age of 96 while staying with her daughter Magdalena in Girard Township, Macoupin County, Illinois. She was buried....well....that's the problem: She has an old tombstone in the Brubaker Cemetery in Roanoke County, Virginia, located on the old Henry Brubaker Place near Hanging Rock and Peters Creek, and also an old tombstone in the Pleasant Hill Cemetery in Macoupin County, Illinois, located on the old Jacob Brubaker farm (now owned by my brothers and myself). But which gravesite was she really buried? Doubtful that she was actually buried twice. Of course, the Virginia Brubakers insist that she was transported "home" for a decent burial, while the Illinois Brubakers think she was buried with other Brubaker Brethren at Pleasant Hill, a mile or so from where she died. Fortunately, the Brubakers of both states are quite civilized and have never required proof. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This 800 page book was composed by Margaret Brubaker Eller and her brother Marwin Brubaker, now deceased.  I owe much to Margaret for her allowing me unfettered access to hundreds of genealogical files she developed in researching this book - we lived close by in San Marcos, CA for over 10 yrs.   Wayne Lucore --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Dwayne Wrightsman <dwayne55@comcast.net> wrote: For the genealogy of all of the Brubakers, including the siblings of Henry, see Brubaker and Eller, "Descendents of John and Anna Myers Brubaker, 1750-1995," Masthof, 1996. Dwayne

Robert, Henry Brubaker's first wife was Elizabeth Flora 1774-1809), daughter of Jacob Flora and Catherine Conrad of Franklin County, Virginia. Henry and Elizabeth Flora Brubaker had nine children that we know of. Henry married Salome/Saloma Eller in Franklin County in 1810 while he was still living in Franklin County. The Henry Brubaker family didn't truly settle into Botetourt/Roanoke County until 1817. In a sense, Franklin County was the home of Henry and his first wife Elizabeth Flora, and neighboring Botetourt/Roanoke County was the home of Henry and his second wife Saloma Eller. For the genealogy of all of the Brubakers, including the siblings of Henry, see Brubaker and Eller, "Descendents of John and Anna Myers Brubaker, 1750-1995," Masthof, 1996. Dwayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROBERT STUTSMAN" <peregrine1@rogers.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:04 AM Subject: [BRE] Henry Brubaker > Hi Dwayne, > Who was Henry's first wife and did they have any > children>? > > Robert

Hello John, To answer your question. I don't have a copy of a separate history of the Grossnickle Church, but I would suppose that the local leople do have such a history written up. However, the book by Prof. J. M. Henry, History of the Church of the Brethren in Maryland, (1930s) has a sizable history of the congregation, with a special emphasis on Daniel Leatherman, founder of the congregation. This book, of course, is now very rare and long out of print. I am wondering about your statement that "my ancestry came through there". McLeod, of course, is not a German name, and these people would have been German speaking. You may not have meant that they were Brethren at that time? Of course, the wife sometimes married out of the church. How did you mean that? I checked my J. M. Henry book, but no McLeod name is indexed there, but the index is quite inadequate, still unlikely that your ancesters on the MdCleod side were Brethren.? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McLeod" <jm6@hubwest.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Brethren history resources > Has anyone ever written a little history of the Grossnickle COB, > comparable > to the ones that Austin Cooper has done for four other churches???? > I am beginning to imagine that part of my ancestry came through there, as > well as the part which is known to have come through Broad Run. > > Thank you from John McLeod > > At 02:30 PM 7/17/08 -0400, "Emmert F. Bittinger" > <ebitting@bridgewater.edu> > wrote: >>An easy source for materials on Brethren History is the Brethren Press, >>1451 >>Dundee Ave., Elgin, Ill. 60120-1694. You could order an inexpensive paper >>back on Brethren History. Ask for "Heritage and Promise" a paperback, I >>think perhaps even less than $10.00, but I am not sure. Emmert Bittinger >> >> >> ------------------------ >>Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN >> ------------------------ >> Support Our Sponsoring Agency >> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >>For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com >> ------------------------ >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>--- >>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude] > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude] > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dwayne, Who was Henry's first wife and did they have any children>? Robert Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:01:44 -0400 From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <dwayne55@comcast.net> Subject: [BRE] Where was Salome Eller Brubaker (1785-1882) REALLY buried??? To: <brubaker@rootsweb.com>, <brethren@rootsweb.com>, "G Frazier" <macoupincounty@earthlink.net>, <roanoke@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <004d01c8ea14$f24f7c00$0b00a8c0@D1JH4121> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Salome Eller Brubaker (1785-1882) was the second wife of Henry Brubaker (1775-1848) of Roanoke County, Virginia. In her old age she lived with her adult children in Virginia, but also with those of her children in Macoupin County, Illinois, who had moved north. She apparently sent and received letters to and from her children while in their absence. She was mother to eleven children, nine of whom survived her. Her name appeared in the 1880 census as living in both states (with son Isaac in Roanoke, VA, and with daughter Magdalena in Macoupin, IL). She died May 7, 1882, at the age of 96 while staying with her daughter Magdalena in Girard Township, Macoupin County, Illinois. She was buried....well....that's the problem: She has an old tombstone in the Brubaker Cemetery in Roanoke County, Virginia, located on the old Henry Brubaker Place near Hanging Rock and Peters Creek, and also an old tombstone in the Pleasant Hill Cemetery in Macoupin County, Illinois, located on the old Jacob Brubaker farm (now owned by my brothers and myself). But which gravesite was she really buried? Doubtful that she was actually buried twice. Of course, the Virginia Brubakers insist that she was transported "home" for a decent burial, while the Illinois Brubakers think she was buried with other Brubaker Brethren at Pleasant Hill, a mile or so from where she died. Fortunately, the Brubakers of both states are quite civilized and have never required proof. Dwayne Wrightsman

Salome Eller Brubaker (1785-1882) was the second wife of Henry Brubaker (1775-1848) of Roanoke County, Virginia. In her old age she lived with her adult children in Virginia, but also with those of her children in Macoupin County, Illinois, who had moved north. She apparently sent and received letters to and from her children while in their absence. She was mother to eleven children, nine of whom survived her. Her name appeared in the 1880 census as living in both states (with son Isaac in Roanoke, VA, and with daughter Magdalena in Macoupin, IL). She died May 7, 1882, at the age of 96 while staying with her daughter Magdalena in Girard Township, Macoupin County, Illinois. She was buried....well....that's the problem: She has an old tombstone in the Brubaker Cemetery in Roanoke County, Virginia, located on the old Henry Brubaker Place near Hanging Rock and Peters Creek, and also an old tombstone in the Pleasant Hill Cemetery in Macoupin County, Illinois, located on the old Jacob Brubaker farm (now owned by my brothers and myself). But which gravesite was she really buried? Doubtful that she was actually buried twice. Of course, the Virginia Brubakers insist that she was transported "home" for a decent burial, while the Illinois Brubakers think she was buried with other Brubaker Brethren at Pleasant Hill, a mile or so from where she died. Fortunately, the Brubakers of both states are quite civilized and have never required proof. Dwayne Wrightsman

Has anyone ever written a little history of the Grossnickle COB, comparable to the ones that Austin Cooper has done for four other churches???? I am beginning to imagine that part of my ancestry came through there, as well as the part which is known to have come through Broad Run. Thank you from John McLeod At 02:30 PM 7/17/08 -0400, "Emmert F. Bittinger" <ebitting@bridgewater.edu> wrote: >An easy source for materials on Brethren History is the Brethren Press, 1451 >Dundee Ave., Elgin, Ill. 60120-1694. You could order an inexpensive paper >back on Brethren History. Ask for "Heritage and Promise" a paperback, I >think perhaps even less than $10.00, but I am not sure. Emmert Bittinger > > > ------------------------ >Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) >For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude]

Merle, Thank You I am someone, who finding what her great-grandfather was an elder of in 1995, has been on a long journey to find an amazing ancestry. The only explanation I have found for the Falls City, NE, 1881-1882 split was "order of the dress." Christian Forney organized the Brethren Church at Beaver City, NE, in 1884 after relocating to Burr Oak after leaving Falls City. Christian is listed in Burr Oak as one who joined the Progressive movement. The church in Falls City was built on Christian and Sabina's land. When they Falls City, they deeded the land to the trustees of the church. After many problems, is now a Brethren Church. Christian was for many years until his death, presiding elder and pastor at Beaver City. I did get from the archives in Elgin, both his retirement and obituary from the Brethren Evangelist. I assumed they were there as he had been an active German Baptist elder or that he was related to Elder John Forney, both of them. Christian and his father, Elder John Forney, Sr,. worked on relief committees, road to visit outlying members, together. They seemed to be very close. Christian's wife was the granddaughter of Elder Henry Meyers, one of the instigators of the split. His father followed the rules of the Annual conference until his death. Dress alone did not, to me, seem sufficient reason for Christian to follow Henry instead of his father. Was it just the congregational based church as the ruling body instead of the rulings of the Annual Conference? That does make more sense than dress. Are there other reasons in the Compromise that were real conflicts? Any insight for my dilemma would be more than appreciated. Mary Ann Rhodes . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <cliff@rtkonline.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] John H. of mention in the 1798 Annual Meeting > >> >> What intrigues me to no end is that modern German Baptist historians >> have chosen, or not been aware of, these various works. It could be that >> they chose not to read it because it was not "German Baptist" in origin. >> Or >> perhaps it was an ignorance of the not widely known aspect of >> Universalism >> and Pietism having an impact on early German Baptist history. >> >> >> Perhaps you might even say that Martin's Pietist impact lasted into >> to >> the 1880s. Could we term the Old Orders as Annual Meeting Brethren of >> Martin's day and the Progressive's as the Pietists of Martin's day? >> Martin >> seemingly espoused a congregational based ruling body (each church ruled >> itself) while the Annual Meeting Brethren of that era preferred a body of >> elders ruling the entire body of the church. An interesting concept! >> Perhaps I got the horse before the cart on that one. <grin> >> > > Floyd Mallott (Studies in Brethren History) and Donald Durnbaugh > (Brethren in Colonial America) -both reference Eddy. And you don't > include my own comments on the Pietism sequence: - that the conflict of > the Carolinas, and sequel in Kaintuck, didn't finish with the Far > Western Brethren and a Compromise, because the Compromise itself was not > acceptable to many. Annual Meeting, itself, took the stand that there > was really no compromise, that it was just an agreement to accept the > decisions of Annual Meeting - look at the record of what they did. > > There were many Brethren who moved west from Illinois into Missouri and > further, who refused the Compromise, and Annual Meeting, and are lost to > the Brethren. Then you, too, include the divisions of the church, in > 1881 and 1882, when the Old Order refused the Compromise, and returned > to the earlier decisions of Annual Meeting. I am not sure I would place > either the "Progressives" or the "Church of the Brethren" in the Pietist > camp - but they are certainly closer to the Compromise. > > Merle C Rummel > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> > What intrigues me to no end is that modern German Baptist historians > have chosen, or not been aware of, these various works. It could be that > they chose not to read it because it was not "German Baptist" in origin. Or > perhaps it was an ignorance of the not widely known aspect of Universalism > and Pietism having an impact on early German Baptist history. > > > Perhaps you might even say that Martin's Pietist impact lasted into to > the 1880s. Could we term the Old Orders as Annual Meeting Brethren of > Martin's day and the Progressive's as the Pietists of Martin's day? Martin > seemingly espoused a congregational based ruling body (each church ruled > itself) while the Annual Meeting Brethren of that era preferred a body of > elders ruling the entire body of the church. An interesting concept! > Perhaps I got the horse before the cart on that one. <grin> > Floyd Mallott (Studies in Brethren History) and Donald Durnbaugh (Brethren in Colonial America) -both reference Eddy. And you don't include my own comments on the Pietism sequence: - that the conflict of the Carolinas, and sequel in Kaintuck, didn't finish with the Far Western Brethren and a Compromise, because the Compromise itself was not acceptable to many. Annual Meeting, itself, took the stand that there was really no compromise, that it was just an agreement to accept the decisions of Annual Meeting - look at the record of what they did. There were many Brethren who moved west from Illinois into Missouri and further, who refused the Compromise, and Annual Meeting, and are lost to the Brethren. Then you, too, include the divisions of the church, in 1881 and 1882, when the Old Order refused the Compromise, and returned to the earlier decisions of Annual Meeting. I am not sure I would place either the "Progressives" or the "Church of the Brethren" in the Pietist camp - but they are certainly closer to the Compromise. Merle C Rummel

I greatly appreciate these discussions on this list! I am getting an education about the history of the Brethren that is not generally taught. Wayne Webb's comparison of the Old Orders as the Annual Meeting Brethren of Martin's day and the Progressives as the Pietists of Martin's day got my attention. This tension in the church is still going on today in regard to congregational autonomy as opposed to the rulings of Annual Conference. This is happening in relation to a number of issues including Biblical Authority and other issues that I won't name to prevent discussions that are too controversial for the list. It's interesting to see that we still have the same tensions today that the Brethren have experienced for many generations. John Shafer Oakton, VA> From: SpiWebb@aol.com> To: brethren@rootsweb.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:21:40 -0400> Subject: Re: [BRE] John H. of mention in the 1798 Annual Meeting> > Morning Steven,> > Thank you for pointing out the Universalism in America book. For people > who are seriously interested in reading about the differing views of > Pietism, at least as practiced in America in the colonial days, Eddy's book > is a well written primer. Yes, you do need to get past the Biblical and > theological references but as a general background source it is well > written.> > What intrigues me to no end is that modern German Baptist historians > have chosen, or not been aware of, these various works. It could be that > they chose not to read it because it was not "German Baptist" in origin. Or > perhaps it was an ignorance of the not widely known aspect of Universalism > and Pietism having an impact on early German Baptist history.> > I choose to take the moderate stand that it was because of a lack of > understanding of the impact. The longer I get in the tooth the more I > accept that this lack is because of self-imposed blinders to the > possibilities that other religious based concepts did have an impact. And > because the late 19th and early 20th Century German Baptist historians, sans > Cassel, did not write on the subject, writers of our time are not aware of > the larger impact.> > Perhaps if more was known of George Adam Martin, both from a literary > and historical standpoint, we today would have a better understanding of the > roots of the German Baptist church in Pietism. While many modern historians > are aware of his problems with the accepted ruling councils of his day, it > is only recently becoming understood that he was somewhere in between Annual > Meeting Brethren, Ephrata Brethren and Universalists.> > Just look at where he or his students in theology were and it soon > becomes apparent that our more moderate Annual Meeting Brethren were > constantly at odds with this Pietist based theology. We have the problems > in the Carolinas, which I believe also extended up into southern Virginia, > Kentucky, Missouri, Illinois and yes even into southern Ohio. And this "at > odds" relationship lasted long after Martin's demise. Read about the > Landisites, Eymanites (Oymanites) and any of the other short-lived sects and > stretch your imagination. Read between the lines!> > Perhaps you might even say that Martin's Pietist impact lasted into to > the 1880s. Could we term the Old Orders as Annual Meeting Brethren of > Martin's day and the Progressive's as the Pietists of Martin's day? Martin > seemingly espoused a congregational based ruling body (each church ruled > itself) while the Annual Meeting Brethren of that era preferred a body of > elders ruling the entire body of the church. An interesting concept! > Perhaps I got the horse before the cart on that one. <grin>> > Wayne Webb> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > Oddly enough, Ham was traditionally stated as being the John H by earlier> > historians.> > Mentioned without source in 1884 in Richard Eddy's UNIVERSALISM IN > > AMERICA,> > volume 1.> > H.K. Carroll stated this as well in a 1878 magazine article in SUNDAY> > AFTERNOON magazine.> >> > Going back further to 1848 is Dave Bennedict in the "General History of > > the> > Baptist Denomination in America...) claiming it was Ham. He puts these > > Dunker> > universalists in Green River County, Kentucky;> > southern Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa. I think Ive seen material from> > around this same time (1840s), but Im still working on putting my notes > > in order.> >> > steven rowe > > > ------------------------> Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN> ------------------------> Support Our Sponsoring Agency> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG)> For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com> ------------------------> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008

Morning Steven, Thank you for pointing out the Universalism in America book. For people who are seriously interested in reading about the differing views of Pietism, at least as practiced in America in the colonial days, Eddy's book is a well written primer. Yes, you do need to get past the Biblical and theological references but as a general background source it is well written. What intrigues me to no end is that modern German Baptist historians have chosen, or not been aware of, these various works. It could be that they chose not to read it because it was not "German Baptist" in origin. Or perhaps it was an ignorance of the not widely known aspect of Universalism and Pietism having an impact on early German Baptist history. I choose to take the moderate stand that it was because of a lack of understanding of the impact. The longer I get in the tooth the more I accept that this lack is because of self-imposed blinders to the possibilities that other religious based concepts did have an impact. And because the late 19th and early 20th Century German Baptist historians, sans Cassel, did not write on the subject, writers of our time are not aware of the larger impact. Perhaps if more was known of George Adam Martin, both from a literary and historical standpoint, we today would have a better understanding of the roots of the German Baptist church in Pietism. While many modern historians are aware of his problems with the accepted ruling councils of his day, it is only recently becoming understood that he was somewhere in between Annual Meeting Brethren, Ephrata Brethren and Universalists. Just look at where he or his students in theology were and it soon becomes apparent that our more moderate Annual Meeting Brethren were constantly at odds with this Pietist based theology. We have the problems in the Carolinas, which I believe also extended up into southern Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, Illinois and yes even into southern Ohio. And this "at odds" relationship lasted long after Martin's demise. Read about the Landisites, Eymanites (Oymanites) and any of the other short-lived sects and stretch your imagination. Read between the lines! Perhaps you might even say that Martin's Pietist impact lasted into to the 1880s. Could we term the Old Orders as Annual Meeting Brethren of Martin's day and the Progressive's as the Pietists of Martin's day? Martin seemingly espoused a congregational based ruling body (each church ruled itself) while the Annual Meeting Brethren of that era preferred a body of elders ruling the entire body of the church. An interesting concept! Perhaps I got the horse before the cart on that one. <grin> Wayne Webb ----- Original Message ----- > > Oddly enough, Ham was traditionally stated as being the John H by earlier > historians. > Mentioned without source in 1884 in Richard Eddy's UNIVERSALISM IN > AMERICA, > volume 1. > H.K. Carroll stated this as well in a 1878 magazine article in SUNDAY > AFTERNOON magazine. > > Going back further to 1848 is Dave Bennedict in the "General History of > the > Baptist Denomination in America...) claiming it was Ham. He puts these > Dunker > universalists in Green River County, Kentucky; > southern Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa. I think Ive seen material from > around this same time (1840s), but Im still working on putting my notes > in order. > > steven rowe

Dwayne, Point well taken. I was not aware that Kaskasia was, at various times, in both states. My apologies to the memory of John Wolfe. As you were kind enough to point out he was likely indicating a region instead of a town. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- > A geographical correction to your description of the Wolfe family in > Illinois and Missouri: You claim that John Wolfe made a mistake about > whether is was Illinois or Missouri where his grandpa died. Well I'm not > so > sure. One thing I do know is my Mississippi River geography. First off, > Ste. Genevieve and Kaskaskia are basically the same place; just look at > any > good atlas. Both have been on both the Illinois and the Missouri sides of > the Mississippi River at different points in time. The mighty Mississippi > has had more than one major course. Kaskaskia Island is now politically > in > Illinois but it is on the Missouri side of the river. Some time ago it > was > on the Illinois side of the river. Ste. Genevieve County is mostly in > Missouri and partly in Illinois. > > In fairness to John Wolfe, he was referring to an area in a time that had > no > real political divisions, states, county borders, organized towns, stable > river courses, so I cannot fault him one whit for what he said back then. > The Brethren Roots article to which you refer places events of two hundred > years ago in today's political realm. Hm..... > > Dwayne Wrightsman

Rev. John W. Hamm (1800-1872) is referred to in the Stark Co., OH, marriages as "German Presbyterian, VDM". Roger Rhoads In a message dated 7/17/2008 8:36:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, brethren-request@rootsweb.com writes: Message: 6 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:35:53 -0400 From: rricabee@aol.com Subject: [BRE] Was John Hamm the same as the one later in Stark Co. OH? To: brethren@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8CAB6855EE4627A-814-1B20@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Does anyone know if this John Hamm was the same as the one later in Stark Co. OH? He was associated with a German church group, which I think was Brethren there. This may have been in the 1820 to 1840 era. Richard B. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

Oddly enough, Ham was traditionally stated as being the John H by earlier historians. Mentioned without source in 1884 in Richard Eddy's UNIVERSALISM IN AMERICA, volume 1. H.K. Carroll stated this as well in a 1878 magazine article in SUNDAY AFTERNOON magazine. Going back further to 1848 is Dave Bennedict in the "General History of the Baptist Denomination in America...) claiming it was Ham. He puts these Dunker universalists in Green River County, Kentucky; southern Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa. I think Ive seen material from around this same time (1840s), but Im still working on putting my notes in order. steven rowe **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

> Does anyone know if this John Hamm was the same as the one later in > Stark Co. OH? He was associated with a German church group, which I > think was Brethren there. This may have been in the 1820 to 1840 era. > No - John Hamm died in North Carolina (Forks of the Yadkin, will written 12 Dec 1811, probated in Feb 1814 - that would be Rowan Co NC) Joseph Hamm, father of John, made out a will on 18 Oct 1794 (Forks of the Yadkin) - naming his wife, Seth, and five sons: Ezekiel, Daniel, Thomas, John and Jacob, and two daughters: Milly Holbrook and Rachel Watson. There is a Matthew Hamm in Simpson Co Kentucky (Drakes Creek area) but some indication that he was not Brethren, even though Drakes Creek was the church of that leading Brethren Universalist Elder, John Hendricks, who had hurriedly left Rowan Co (Forks of the Yadkin) in 1798 after the action of Annual Meeting, and moved to Kentucky. I have not tried to trace the descendants of John Hamm, or Joseph Hamm. I am sure there were a number of John Hamm grandchildren. Roger Sappington (The Brethren in the Carolinas, pp62-73) includes considerable information about him, probably the most that we have anywhere else. Both he and Don Durnbaugh (Brethren in Colonial America, pp327-332) include the Annual Meeting minutes, and the record of Universalist Historian, Richard Eddy, about John Hamm. Merle C Rummel

Does anyone know if this John Hamm was the same as the one later in Stark Co. OH? He was associated with a German church group, which I think was Brethren there. This may have been in the 1820 to 1840 era. Richard B. Message: 2 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:11:41 -0400 From: "Wayne Webb" <SpiWebb@aol.com> Subject: [BRE] John H. of mention in the 1798 Annual Meeting To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <006901c8e81f$6ad2f6e0$0760fea9@main> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Morning List, Friend Merle has brought up, once again, a topic that intrigues me. His seemingly innocuous statement about the John H. of Carolina mentioned in the 1798 Annual Meeting is one that has long puzzled me. While I have seen it often mentioned there is not one instance where I have seen the statement quantified by documented references. Many accepted historical writers, seemingly all good researchers, have gone along with the party line and made the statement: "This is probably Elder John Hendricks... he was Universalist..." I beg to differ. The majority of our history, seldom having been placed into the written word during the 18th Century, is from periodicals of the late 19th Century. A good-sized portion of it was the writings of Abraham Cassel, but there were others who were also writing from the memories of their forefathers and materials in their collections. One of these writers was Elder Isaac Price of Pennsylvania. While I do not have a collection of his stories and articles I do have a reply to one. And it most assuredly sheds new light on just who John H. may have been. I would give the odds better than average that John Hendricks was not the person of comment and that in his place we should consider John Hamm. The reason that I believe it was John Hamm is based upon two men, Elder Isaac Price of Pennsylvania and John Wolfe of Illinois, both from different regions of the country, stating that it was John Hamm. I will allow John Wolfe to speak in his own words from the 19th Century. "...You stated, that in an early day there were three churches or congregations organized in Kentucky and presided over by one "Ham," afterward the apostate Ham, that he became a heretic, that he practiced a great many things that were contrary to the usages and order of the general Brotherhood, and that Annual Meeting sent a committee to investigate the matter. Ham refused to hear the committee and the consequence was, he, with the most of his members, were expelled. But a few remained faithful, and in the process of time pulled up stakes and settled in the Missouri territory, and among the number that moved to Missouri was the late Eld. Geo. Wolfe. "All the above narrative is a mistake except the churches organized in Kentucky, and to rectify that mistake and try to give the case as often heard them related to my father, is my object in referring to your article. (When I use the word father, I mean the late Eld. Geo. Wolfe, as he was my earthly father.) In the first place the apostate Ham never lived in Kentucky, but resided in North Carolina. You gave a correct account, as I often heard father tell, he was not an eye witness to the transactions but got it from those that were present. "But to return to the Kentucky churches. They were presided over by three elders, namely Joseph Roland, Joseph Hostettler, and ----- Hawn. The Kentucky churches were organized somewhere between the years 1800 and 1808. In October 1808, my father moved from Logan Co., Kentucky, to what is now Union Co., Ill. He never lived in Missouri, but there were brethren who had settled in Missouri about the same time father moved to Illinois. Father joined the church in the year 1812 in Union Co., Ill., about forty miles north of the city of Cairo. It is situated at the mouth of the Ohio river. He and my mother with six other brethren and their wives, were baptized at the same time by old Elder John Henricks, of Kentucky, and among the number baptized at that was his brother Jacob Wolf, father of Eld. Geo. Wolf of California. That same season, father was elected to the ministry, and the next Spring they sent to Kentucky for Elders, and Hostettler and Rowland came, and father was ordained to the full ministry and eldership by Hostettler. At that time, 1813, Hostettler and Hawn were in good standing and in full fellowship with the churches. About the year 1815, they commenced practicing heresies in their churches, about as the apostate Ham did. "In the Spring 1816, there was a committee of elders sent to investigate the matter. They were Samuel and John Leatherman of Virginia, father from Illinois, and James Henricks from Missouri. The result was, Hostettler and Hawn were cut off. Roland's members plead so hard for him, and he making acknowledgement, was held in fellowship, though he was relieved from part of his office, for the time being, but afterwards it was restored back to him again. "I get this knowledge from a copy of the Minutes of that Council meeting, which father preserved as long as he lived, but in the last few years they have been destroyed or lost, I rather think the former, as they burned a great many of his old papers a few years ago." The remaining portion of this article from an 1882 issue of Brethren at Work goes into a brief account of the later years of Elder George Wolfe and mainly is a reply to statements made in the earlier article penned by Elder Isaac Price. Let us dissect portions of this article saving the Apostate Ham for the last. We know, from other statements made by John Wolfe, that he has some accounts of the early history of his family incorrect. It was from he that the statement that his grandfather George Wolfe Sr. died in Kaskaskia, Illinois originates. From the research of Judith Wilson and Penn Ann Wardrop (Brethren Roots Vol. 38, No. 4) we now know that Elder George Wolfe did not die in Illinois while on a preaching trip from Kentucky, but instead died in St. Genevieve, Missouri near the house of a daughter. This is one strike against John Wolfe. Other statements made by John do seem to bear witness with work that Friend Merle and others, has located over the years and which seem to agree with accepted Brethren history. However while the "historians" have been willing to accept John Hendricks as the expelled John H. of the 1798 meeting I have not seen documentation to back this up. Not having access to the writings of David Eller, but being aware of his documentary standards and reliance on assumptions, I believe that an injustice may have been done to the memory of Elder John Hendricks. Since we seem to have one literary account by John Wolfe in reply to another by Elder Price we should give account to their statements. I have not been able to discover much about John Hamm. Or for that matter just when or where he was born or died. I was able to ascertain that he was likely a member of the Hamm family from Rowan county, North Carolina that is intermarried with the Hendricks, Yontz(Yount?). John may, and that is a big maybe, been the son of Jacob and Maria Catherine Keim Hamm. I remember while working on the Wolfe article that it was extremely difficult to get the correct John as there were several that were possibilities. The main point is that in this Brethren at Work article we have an account, in response to another account, that differs greatly with what is now accepted Brethren history; "John Hendricks is John H. of 1798". Instead we have a contemporarily written history identifying this Man of Mystery as having been John Hamm. And it does seem that both Eld. Price and John Wolfe detested this man who by 1882 would have been just a memory. While the Brethren Encyclopedia has informative articles on both men both articles are written from the perspective of sitting on the fence making no statements other than that both men were possibly John H. It is likely that it was John Hendricks who formed the Cape Girardeau, Missouri and Union county, Illinois churches. However I believe that Elder George Wolfe had a hand in this. This would have been Elder George Wolfe, the father. Though Elder Wolfe died in Missouri in 1808 from experience I generally back up the formal date of the organization of a church by several years. Invariably I find an account in the published materials, newspapers, that supports this theory. Wayne Webb Past Editor: Brethren Roots

Beverly, There are others on this list far more capable of explaining this than I. However, the Schwarzenau Brethren arose out of the Pietist movement in Germany (google and read about Ernst Christoph Hochmann von Hochenau a friend of Alexander Mack and an early Pietist.) The Pietists came after the Anabaptist movement, but were certainly influenced by them. However, in the beginning they were quite separate, as in the Krefeld congregation of Brethren, a brother was expelled from the church for marrying a Mennonite woman. In America, though there was a lot more interaction/intermarriage. Certainly with the same language, similar appearance, and theology it was natural for the groups to mingle to an extent. Brethren today are fairly diverse with some congregations being very modern and some few attempting to retain plainness of dress, the prayer covering, etc. The history is fascinating, and I hope that you enjoy exploring this. As a lifelong member of the Church of the Brethren with most of my direct ancestors being Brethren, it has certainly been intriguing for me. The Amish and Mennonites went separate ways while still in Europe; I believe it was over the issue of "the ban" or shunning members who were not in the order of the church. John Shafer Oakton, VA> From: Bb43@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:01:29 -0400> To: brethren@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [BRE] Brethren history resources> > Thanks, Judy. I don't think I made myself clear in my post. My family is > intertwined with many in the Somerset region of Pennsylvania, with many Meyers, > Lichtys and Beeghleys in the line. When I read posts it's like one large > family in the late 1700s. They moved on to Illinois, then Kansas, but also Iowa > and California. Obviously information in these areas are of great interest to > me. And I do have specific questions I will be posting in the future.> > My main interest in this post, though, is a more general interest. I am > confused about the beginnings of Brethren - they are co-mingled with Anabaptists, > Mennonites and Amish in many catalogs and books. I can't semm to figure > whether they are splits form each other, or developed parallelly in the same region > of Switzerland/Germany. Their seem to be many of the same family names in > these groups. And I know some of them switched from one to another - due to > geogrqaphical reasoons? Or marital situations? > > And later in this country there were many splits, it seems, and I can't seems > to get a handle on the differences between the groups. I suppose theological > differences, but perhaps also how they presented themselves to the world? I > am also interested in how the Brethren practice today. I checked my state > (CA) and the closest church looks to be over a hundred miles away, so I really > can't even visit easily, certainly not regularly if I should be so inclined.> > I have a catalog from Masthof Press and there is a great selection. I don't > know what to order. I did purchase and read a book entitled "Old Brethren" > by Lehman. Interesting and quaint. I enjoyed it very much. And I bought Two > Centuries of Brothersvalley (not sure that's the exact title) by Cooper, and I > am reading that. But I don't think it addresses the general issues I am > interested in. Just thought someone might have a book they're reading now, or > have bought recently that they would like to recommend - a history of the church > through time, not necessarily ancestors.> > Beverly> > > > **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! > (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)> > ------------------------> Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN> ------------------------> Support Our Sponsoring Agency> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG)> For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com> ------------------------> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008

RE: Brethren Practice Today If you are looking to see the uniqueness of modern Brethren compared to other Protestant denominations, you won't notice much. I was Grace Brethren in my younger years, Church of the Brethren in my teenage years, and have been very active in the United Methodist Church ever since. I should note that my United Methodist church was originally Evangelical (German heritage Methodists) before the mergers. I also go to an occasional Brethren service when visiting my parents. As far as basic doctrine, what I learned in Sunday School as a child is the same as they teach in my United Methodist Church. Of course some of the rituals are different, but most of what you see and hear from the pew is the same. If you put a cover over the sign in front of the Church and covered the hymnal, you likely wouldn't even know you were in a Brethren Church. The Brethren of old had a life style similar to the Amish, and there are still Old Order Brethren who practice a similar life style but they are very few, and far between. Bill Thomas

Beverly: I grew up in Berne, IN which is a Swiss Mennonite community of about 4,000 residents which is 35 miles south of Ft. Wayne, IN. I was raised as a Mennonite by my parents and I went to Bluffton University (Bluffton, Ohio) which is a Mennonite institution that is about 60 miles south of Toledo, OH. I have many contacts and friends in Mennonite communities across Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. I myself have been a member of a Christian & Missionary Alliance church called Westgate Chapel here in Toledo. You are right, there are many divisions and spilts in the Annabaptist movement along with the Amish, Dunkkards, Brethern, Apostolic, and Mennonite groups. Most of these people came from Russia, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Austria, and France during the late 1700's through the early 1900's. Almost all of these families came to America because they were seeking religious freedom. One of the key elements of faith and doctrinal beliefs with these people was "believers baptism" as opposed to "infant baptism" that was taught and emphaised by the Catholic church. There were many families that were seperated over doctrinal issues and this caused much strife within the various denominations. When the industrial revolution came to the United States, with many modern inventions, electricity, gasoline powered engines, cars, farm equipment, etc. these changes also brought on additional divisions within the church. As you know, the Amish community has basically chosen to not be a part of the modern world. In some ways they may have made a wise decision as this group of folks have a strong committment to family, deep devotion to God, and have a passion to help others. However, the Amish are not alone in living Godly lives and a strong committment to family and community. I for one have come to the conclusion, that how we dress, what my beliefs are on modern day inventions, or wether we have church on Saturdays instead of Sundays, are not important issues. What is important today, as it always has been, is to love God with all of our heart, treat your fellowmen with respect, be honest in all of your dealings, and have compassion for a lost world that needs Jesus. Steve Von Gunten Toledo, OH + ----- Original Message ----- From: <Bb43@aol.com> To: <brethren@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] Brethren history resources > Thanks, Judy. I don't think I made myself clear in my post. My family is > intertwined with many in the Somerset region of Pennsylvania, with many > Meyers, > Lichtys and Beeghleys in the line. When I read posts it's like one large > family in the late 1700s. They moved on to Illinois, then Kansas, but > also Iowa > and California. Obviously information in these areas are of great > interest to > me. And I do have specific questions I will be posting in the future. > > My main interest in this post, though, is a more general interest. I am > confused about the beginnings of Brethren - they are co-mingled with > Anabaptists, > Mennonites and Amish in many catalogs and books. I can't semm to figure > whether they are splits form each other, or developed parallelly in the > same region > of Switzerland/Germany. Their seem to be many of the same family names in > these groups. And I know some of them switched from one to another - due > to > geogrqaphical reasoons? Or marital situations? > > And later in this country there were many splits, it seems, and I can't > seems > to get a handle on the differences between the groups. I suppose > theological > differences, but perhaps also how they presented themselves to the world? > I > am also interested in how the Brethren practice today. I checked my state > (CA) and the closest church looks to be over a hundred miles away, so I > really > can't even visit easily, certainly not regularly if I should be so > inclined. > > I have a catalog from Masthof Press and there is a great selection. I > don't > know what to order. I did purchase and read a book entitled "Old > Brethren" > by Lehman. Interesting and quaint. I enjoyed it very much. And I bought > Two > Centuries of Brothersvalley (not sure that's the exact title) by Cooper, > and I > am reading that. But I don't think it addresses the general issues I am > interested in. Just thought someone might have a book they're reading > now, or > have bought recently that they would like to recommend - a history of the > church > through time, not necessarily ancestors. > > Beverly > > > > **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live > music > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! > (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:McAdamsr@hotmail.com > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BRETHREN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

there are many - depending on what you want - Donald Durnbaugh wrote two major books - European Origins of the Brethren (1958), and The Brethren in Colonial America (1967) ...these are strong on translating documents, with the included history Floyd Mallott wrote a general book: Studies in Brethren History (1954) On line - www.cob-net.org - across the top hit "History", there are all kinds of information, Ron Gordon has gathered a good collection. I will take some exception to the following statement: The Pietists came after the Anabaptist movement, but were certainly influenced by them. The Pietist movement was a Bible-Study movement in Germany starting at the University of Halle in about 1680, which emphasized a personal revival/a renewed relation with Jesus - it centered on the New Testament accounts of the Early Church (First Century Christianity - or "Primitive Christianity") Anabaptism was 200 years before, being a radical movement at the time of Luther's Reformation. Alexander Mack included the Anabaptist concepts in his Bible Study group - in his mill. He read some Anabaptist writings, and realized that they were true of Primitive Christianity (which had also been a concept of the Anabaptist movement of about 1500). It seems he was about the only one, other Pietists seem to have done little with Anabaptism, and even for us Brethren, the Anabaptist emphasis really came during and following the American Revolution, among the Eastern Brethren, as we made "community" with the Mennonites in Pennsylvania, some 50 years after we came to the New World. Merle C Rummel > Thanks, Judy. I don't think I made myself clear in my post. My family is > intertwined with many in the Somerset region of Pennsylvania, with many Meyers, > Lichtys and Beeghleys in the line. When I read posts it's like one large > family in the late 1700s. They moved on to Illinois, then Kansas, but also Iowa > and California. Obviously information in these areas are of great interest to > me. And I do have specific questions I will be posting in the future. > > My main interest in this post, though, is a more general interest. I am > confused about the beginnings of Brethren - they are co-mingled with Anabaptists, > Mennonites and Amish in many catalogs and books.