Dwayne, I am really confused about our ancestor Isham's letter.  At the 1820 meeting, it was decided to wash feet between supper and communion. But then one guy said if he produced evidence that feet were washed before supper, would they not then comply,to which they agreed. Then they sent testimony which settled the question.  !!??? So, first they decided to wash feet between. Then Roland asked his question, and they agreed. But it did not say that he did produce evidence, and I cannot imagine what it could have been.But it sounds like he did, and they agreed, which means to me that they changed their minds and went for washing before supper and communion. Is this the case? Does the testimony they sent then say they agreed to the before-supper idea? It settled the question, for whom?  Then between 1820 and 26, the big cutoff! Was it Because of their answer? If their "testimony" settled the question, then why were they cut off?    I find it almost incomprehensible that poor hardworking pioneers would pull up stakes and move with great difficulty, over a  minuscule question of the order of activities at their service. Or is this just one of many reasons they move?  After "cutting off" what did they do, religiously, besides moving away? Then in your later message you amaze me when you say that our ancestor Isham himself was cut off much later! Why? for what terrible horrible earthshaking heresy? And what followed that excommunication? This is the first I had heard of my grandfather's grandfather's letter, most curious indeed. Hal Gibson

Merle, Brumbaugh called them Far Western Brethren in 1899 in his final chapter. I presume he got the term from Cassell, who, in turn, apparently borrowed the term from Isham Gibson's letters. Cassell accepted Gibson's count of 1,500 Brethren and sisters being cut off. (I can send you copies of the two Gibson letters I have for your reference. I got them from Michael Hodson.) Like you, I wonder if Gibson used the term Western Brethren to stand for those in western Kentucky, and then when they were kicked out of the fellowship, might he have extended the term to Far Western to indicate those who moved further west into Missouri and Illinois. As for your use of the term Frontier Brethren, for me it differentiates between the Kentucky Brethren east of the Green River who assimilated into the Association in Kentucky and Indiana around issues such as universal restoration and mode of baptism, whereas, as I understand the Far Western situation, as written by Gibson, the issue was more about the mode of Communion. Gibson was cut off (expelled) in 1869 for his views about Communion. In his letter he said that 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Ky were cut off. I assume that he was counting up both the husbands and the wives, but maybe not the children since they would not have been baptized. He may have exaggerated. I can tell you that my grandma Wrightsman, who was Isham Gibsons granddaughter, was more Gibson than Wrightsman as her side of the family told some pretty tall tales at the annual Gibson reunions in Morgan County, IL. She was convinced that her grandpa baptized Abraham Lincoln, either that, or she relished telling a tall tale with a straight face. I spent a lot of time with her as my brother and I ate lunch every school day in her kitchen. Her food was good, and her stories were even better. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Merle C Rummel Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > The western Brethren > claimed that feet should be washed between supper and Bread of Communion and > they, the western Brethren, claimed the victory over the Virginia Brethren. > Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was > cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky. This left only a > small remnant of Far western Brethren, the old ones having died. George > Wolfe in Union County, ILL, myself in Rutherford Co., Middle Tennessee, > having never seen each other, met in Morgan County, Illinois in 1834......" In this letter you've raised two points to me - The first is that Isham GIbson names them first as "Western Brethren" - then identifies those who have moved on to Illinois as "Far Western Brethren". I wonder if this is a distinction in terms? I've called these "Western Brethren" the "Frontier Brethren" (wish I had had this letter - maybe I would have identified them a little different. Or should I maybe rename, and reword the whole book? - since it is still only in .pdf? David Eller called all of them "Far Western Brethren". I disagree with this term, on several basis - which I have tried to identify. The second is that I read the number of Brethren who were cut off (the Brethren Association - in Indiana said: "expelled") as 1500 families (which means to me a husband and wife, and their children) - quite a number, as I was discovering. This could possibly be read either way. David Eller stated it: "1500 Brethren" meaning a total of 1500 people. The original of Abraham Cassel's history on the Far Western Brethren has disappeared. I tried to find it. It is no longer at Juniata College, but it seems David Eller did see it. I suspect Abraham Cassel got his number from Isham's letter. Merle C Rummel ------------------------

> The western Brethren > claimed that feet should be washed between supper and Bread of Communion and > they, the western Brethren, claimed the victory over the Virginia Brethren. > Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was > cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky. This left only a > small remnant of Far western Brethren, the old ones having died. George > Wolfe in Union County, ILL, myself in Rutherford Co., Middle Tennessee, > having never seen each other, met in Morgan County, Illinois in 1834......" In this letter you've raised two points to me - The first is that Isham GIbson names them first as "Western Brethren" - then identifies those who have moved on to Illinois as "Far Western Brethren". I wonder if this is a distinction in terms? I've called these "Western Brethren" the "Frontier Brethren" (wish I had had this letter - maybe I would have identified them a little different. Or should I maybe rename, and reword the whole book? - since it is still only in .pdf? David Eller called all of them "Far Western Brethren". I disagree with this term, on several basis - which I have tried to identify. The second is that I read the number of Brethren who were cut off (the Brethren Association - in Indiana said: "expelled") as 1500 families (which means to me a husband and wife, and their children) - quite a number, as I was discovering. This could possibly be read either way. David Eller stated it: "1500 Brethren" meaning a total of 1500 people. The original of Abraham Cassel's history on the Far Western Brethren has disappeared. I tried to find it. It is no longer at Juniata College, but it seems David Eller did see it. I suspect Abraham Cassel got his number from Isham's letter. Merle C Rummel

Gale, I agree those letters are puzzling. I wish I could see the originals. I wonder if Michael Etter, as minister, might have wrirtten the letter on behalf of Elizabeth Grubb, if she was not literate. I don't know if there was any family connection between them. I have seen suggestions that Eve Reep Etter may have been previously married to a Grubb, but I am unsure that is so. Since reading your thoughtful reply, I've been going back over records I have found connecting these families. And, like the letters, these seem to raise as many questions as they might answer. The 1810 census shows two Grubb families in Hopewell Township, Huntingdon, PA (with male household heads listed with first initials G and E, which is puzzling because Abraham is listed there in 1800). Names above and below them in 1810 are Garner (also connected by marriage to my Grubb line) and Bower. On the same page is a Teeter (Deeter?) family and below that two Etter families. In 1820 in Newton, Miami, OH, Andrew Grubb is listed right below Michael Etter. I do not know where his mother was living in that year, but in 1830, there was a female age 60-69 in the household of John Souder in Newberry, Miami, OH, and I suspect that was his mother-in-law, Elizabeth Grubb. Bauers/Bowers is my strongest lead for Elizabeth's maiden name, but still unproven. Pages 358-9 of the Brumbaugh history describes the settlement of Isaac Bauer "Bowers amongst his chiildren, with an Abraham Krob listed along with three Brumbaughs and four Ba. However, the settlement was 1820, and the elder Abraham Krob/Grubb died 1814. That Elizabeth (Fretz) Grub/Grob and her husband, Abraham, went to Ontario, Canada, looks pretty well documented at this site, http://www.grobb-grubb-genealogy.com/grobb-grubb-genealogy-generation-03.htm Though, interestingly, that website also refers to 1796 and 1799 tax records in Hilltown Township, Bucks County, PA, for another Abraham Grubb, who was a weaver. In *History of Huntingdon and Blair Counties*, Pennsylvania by J. Simpson Africa Philadelphia, PA: Louis H. Everts, 1883, pp. 336-340, it says: "Isaac Bowers, from Berks, and Abraham Grubb, from Bucks County, came to this valley in the early part of the present century." The estate inventory for the Abraham Grubb d.1814 in Hungtingdon Co lists a loom and other weaving supplies. One of the witnesses was a Joshua Souder. Those names you found for the nine children of Abraham and Elizabeth match what I have, as well as a listing in “The Crobfs/Krupps/Kropfs of Pennsylvania” by Yvonne C. Prough, published in *Mennonite Family History*, January 1987 (many thanks to Dwayne Wightsman for that source). That article identifies Abraham as son of Jacob Krop/Krupp, who arrived on the ship Allen in 1729 with Alexander Mack, settled in Salford Township, PA, and married Maria Oblinger/Uplinger. And that jibes with DNA tests results, which link me and my siblings to descendants of other Kropf family members aboard the Allen. Writing this out has been really helpful to thinking this through, and makes me realize that I'm still uncertain about the liaeage of the Grubbs buried in Sugar Grove Cemetery. Now to find some of those records listed in that Miami County index. Thanks so much for your help. Kathleen

Dwayne, I was curious. Of the Brethren who remained in the Lincoln Co, NC area, most did not have slaves. Henry Rhodes Jr., son of the Dunker minister Henry Rhodes Sr., did own slaves and acquired significant financial success. Of course the Brethren congregation had disbanded by the 1840's or so. One of Younces owned a slave in the area before leaving for Ashe County, NC. Thanks for the information. Robert Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > Robert, > > I think I started the quote on a sentence too soon. Gibson tended not to > use paragraphs in his letters. I have copies of his hand-written letters > as > well as typed transcriptions. Although he didn't address the issue of > slavery, a few of the Brethren had slaves, but most did not. The foot > washing and communion was a separate issue, and was the one that the quote > was really about in terms of the "1,500" offending Far Western Brethren > being cut off from the Eastern Annual-Meeting Brethren. > > Dwayne > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Robert Carpenter > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:27 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off > about > 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > > Dwayne, > > The first sentence of Gibson was that the KY disturbance involved "the > subject of slavery". Yet, throughout the remainder of the quotation the > issue of slavery was not mentioned. What was the issue of slavery in KY > at > this time and how did it contribute to the foot washing component of > communion? Or was foot washing and communion a separate issue? Do you > know? > > Robert Carpenter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; "'Merle C Rummel'" <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:23 PM > Subject: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about > 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > > >> The subject is a quote from a letter of April 2, 1869, from Isham Gibson > to >> Abraham Harley Cassel. I thought some of you might be interested in the >> context of this alleged "cut off" by giving you a little more quotation > from >> this long letter. Apparently Cassel was trying to learn from Isham >> Gibson >> what happened in Kentucky in the 1820s. Bear in mind that Gibson was an >> old man when he wrote the letter. >> >> ".....a disturbance arose in Kentucky on the subject of slavery. A call > was >> then made on our Eastern Brethren to assist them. Accordingly the > following >> Brethren met at Brother Benjamin Coffman's in Muhlenberg Co. Kentucky in >> the year 1820. Samuel Arnold, Daniel Garver, John Brower, Joseph Roland, >> George Wolfe, James Hendricks, Jacob Garver, Henry Thornberry, Daniel > Crouse, >> Joseph Kingery, Samuel Danner, Jacob Wolfe, all these Brethren went into >> Council. Propositions were discussed, the seventy and last was whether >> it >> was right to wash feet, before or after supper..... The western Brethren >> claimed that feet should be washed between supper and Bread of Communion >> and they, the western Brethren, claimed the victory over the Virginia > Brethren. >> Then Brother Arnold asked the Brethren if he produced evidence that feet >> were washed before supper would they not comply, to which they agreed. >> Accordingly on their return home they sent testimony which settled the >> question. This confirms your [Cassel's] History of the Brethren. In the > year >> 1823 I was baptized in Tennessee by Brother John Dick and was ordained >> May 14, 1826 [by Joseph Roland]. Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there >> was cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky. This left only > a >> small remnant of Far western Brethren, the old ones having died. George >> Wolfe in Union County, ILL, myself in Rutherford Co., Middle Tennessee, >> having never seen each other, met in Morgan County, Illinois in > 1834......" >> >> Immediately after Joseph Roland ordained Isham Gibson in 1826, he >> appointed Gibson as elder in charge of the Long Creek congregation in > southwestern >> Muhlenberg County. Gibson was the first and only elder as the Long Creek >> congregation was constituted in 1826, and then soon after disbanded, with >> Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson leading the Far Western >> Brethren from Long Creek and Drakes Creek (in Simpson County) to Sugar > Creek >> in Sangamon County, Illinois, where a new congregation was constituted in >> 1830. The Long Creek Brethren existed many years before they were > "constituted" >> by Joseph Roland, but by then, it was too late. I sort of doubt that my >> gggrandfather Gibson was correct when he came up with the number of 1,500 >> cut off, but the solution to the cut off was the same in 1826 as it was >> in >> 1799. When, in 1799, the North Carolina Brethren were cut off for > believing >> in Universal Restoration, they moved to Kentucky. When, in 1826, the >> Kentucky Brethren were cut off for how they conducted Communion, those >> associated with Elders Roland, Dick, and Gibson moved to Illinois. >> >> Dwayne Wrightsman > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Robert, I think I started the quote on a sentence too soon. Gibson tended not to use paragraphs in his letters. I have copies of his hand-written letters as well as typed transcriptions. Although he didn't address the issue of slavery, a few of the Brethren had slaves, but most did not. The foot washing and communion was a separate issue, and was the one that the quote was really about in terms of the "1,500" offending Far Western Brethren being cut off from the Eastern Annual-Meeting Brethren. Dwayne -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Carpenter Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" Dwayne, The first sentence of Gibson was that the KY disturbance involved "the subject of slavery". Yet, throughout the remainder of the quotation the issue of slavery was not mentioned. What was the issue of slavery in KY at this time and how did it contribute to the foot washing component of communion? Or was foot washing and communion a separate issue? Do you know? Robert Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; "'Merle C Rummel'" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:23 PM Subject: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > The subject is a quote from a letter of April 2, 1869, from Isham Gibson to > Abraham Harley Cassel. I thought some of you might be interested in the > context of this alleged "cut off" by giving you a little more quotation from > this long letter. Apparently Cassel was trying to learn from Isham Gibson > what happened in Kentucky in the 1820s. Bear in mind that Gibson was an > old man when he wrote the letter. > > ".....a disturbance arose in Kentucky on the subject of slavery. A call was > then made on our Eastern Brethren to assist them. Accordingly the following > Brethren met at Brother Benjamin Coffman's in Muhlenberg Co. Kentucky in > the year 1820. Samuel Arnold, Daniel Garver, John Brower, Joseph Roland, > George Wolfe, James Hendricks, Jacob Garver, Henry Thornberry, Daniel Crouse, > Joseph Kingery, Samuel Danner, Jacob Wolfe, all these Brethren went into > Council. Propositions were discussed, the seventy and last was whether it > was right to wash feet, before or after supper..... The western Brethren > claimed that feet should be washed between supper and Bread of Communion > and they, the western Brethren, claimed the victory over the Virginia Brethren. > Then Brother Arnold asked the Brethren if he produced evidence that feet > were washed before supper would they not comply, to which they agreed. > Accordingly on their return home they sent testimony which settled the > question. This confirms your [Cassel's] History of the Brethren. In the year > 1823 I was baptized in Tennessee by Brother John Dick and was ordained > May 14, 1826 [by Joseph Roland]. Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there > was cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky. This left only a > small remnant of Far western Brethren, the old ones having died. George > Wolfe in Union County, ILL, myself in Rutherford Co., Middle Tennessee, > having never seen each other, met in Morgan County, Illinois in 1834......" > > Immediately after Joseph Roland ordained Isham Gibson in 1826, he > appointed Gibson as elder in charge of the Long Creek congregation in southwestern > Muhlenberg County. Gibson was the first and only elder as the Long Creek > congregation was constituted in 1826, and then soon after disbanded, with > Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson leading the Far Western > Brethren from Long Creek and Drakes Creek (in Simpson County) to Sugar Creek > in Sangamon County, Illinois, where a new congregation was constituted in > 1830. The Long Creek Brethren existed many years before they were "constituted" > by Joseph Roland, but by then, it was too late. I sort of doubt that my > gggrandfather Gibson was correct when he came up with the number of 1,500 > cut off, but the solution to the cut off was the same in 1826 as it was in > 1799. When, in 1799, the North Carolina Brethren were cut off for believing > in Universal Restoration, they moved to Kentucky. When, in 1826, the > Kentucky Brethren were cut off for how they conducted Communion, those > associated with Elders Roland, Dick, and Gibson moved to Illinois. > > Dwayne Wrightsman

Dwayne, The first sentence of Gibson was that the KY disturbance involved "the subject of slavery". Yet, througout the remainder of the quotation the issue of slavery was not mentioned. What was the issue of slavery in KY at this time and how did it contribute to the foot washing component of communion? Or was foot washing and communion a separate issue? Do you know? Robert Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; "'Merle C Rummel'" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:23 PM Subject: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > The subject is a quote from a letter of April 2, 1869, from Isham Gibson > to > Abraham Harley Cassel. I thought some of you might be interested in the > context of this alleged "cut off" by giving you a little more quotation > from > this long letter. Apparently Cassel was trying to learn from Isham Gibson > what happened in Kentucky in the 1820s. Bear in mind that Gibson was an > old > man when he wrote the letter. > > ".....a disturbance arose in Kentucky on the subject of slavery. A call > was > then made on our Eastern Brethren to assist them. Accordingly the > following > Brethren met at Brother Benjamin Coffman's in Muhlenberg Co. Kentucky in > the > year 1820. Samuel Arnold, Daniel Garver, John Brower, Joseph Roland, > George > Wolfe, James Hendricks, Jacob Garver, Henry Thornberry, Daniel Crouse, > Joseph Kingery, Samuel Danner, Jacob Wolfe, all these Brethren went into > Council. Propositions were discussed, the seventy and last was whether it > was right to wash feet, before or after supper..... The western Brethren > claimed that feet should be washed between supper and Bread of Communion > and > they, the western Brethren, claimed the victory over the Virginia > Brethren. > Then Brother Arnold asked the Brethren if he produced evidence that feet > were washed before supper would they not comply, to which they agreed. > Accordingly on their return home they sent testimony which settled the > question. This confirms your [Cassel's] History of the Brethren. In the > year 1823 I was baptized in Tennessee by Brother John Dick and was > ordained > May 14, 1826 [by Joseph Roland]. Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there > was > cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky. This left only a > small remnant of Far western Brethren, the old ones having died. George > Wolfe in Union County, ILL, myself in Rutherford Co., Middle Tennessee, > having never seen each other, met in Morgan County, Illinois in > 1834......" > > Immediately after Joseph Roland ordained Isham Gibson in 1826, he > appointed > Gibson as elder in charge of the Long Creek congregation in southwestern > Muhlenberg County. Gibson was the first and only elder as the Long Creek > congregation was constituted in 1826, and then soon after disbanded, with > Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson leading the Far Western > Brethren > from Long Creek and Drakes Creek (in Simpson County) to Sugar Creek in > Sangamon County, Illinois, where a new congregation was constituted in > 1830. > The Long Creek Brethren existed many years before they were "constituted" > by > Joseph Roland, but by then, it was too late. I sort of doubt that my > gggrandfather Gibson was correct when he came up with the number of 1,500 > cut off, but the solution to the cut off was the same in 1826 as it was in > 1799. When, in 1799, the North Carolina Brethren were cut off for > believing > in Universal Restoration, they moved to Kentucky. When, in 1826, the > Kentucky Brethren were cut off for how they conducted Communion, those > associated with Elders Roland, Dick, and Gibson moved to Illinois. > > Dwayne Wrightsman > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The subject is a quote from a letter of April 2, 1869, from Isham Gibson to Abraham Harley Cassel. I thought some of you might be interested in the context of this alleged "cut off" by giving you a little more quotation from this long letter. Apparently Cassel was trying to learn from Isham Gibson what happened in Kentucky in the 1820s. Bear in mind that Gibson was an old man when he wrote the letter. ".....a disturbance arose in Kentucky on the subject of slavery. A call was then made on our Eastern Brethren to assist them. Accordingly the following Brethren met at Brother Benjamin Coffman's in Muhlenberg Co. Kentucky in the year 1820. Samuel Arnold, Daniel Garver, John Brower, Joseph Roland, George Wolfe, James Hendricks, Jacob Garver, Henry Thornberry, Daniel Crouse, Joseph Kingery, Samuel Danner, Jacob Wolfe, all these Brethren went into Council. Propositions were discussed, the seventy and last was whether it was right to wash feet, before or after supper..... The western Brethren claimed that feet should be washed between supper and Bread of Communion and they, the western Brethren, claimed the victory over the Virginia Brethren. Then Brother Arnold asked the Brethren if he produced evidence that feet were washed before supper would they not comply, to which they agreed. Accordingly on their return home they sent testimony which settled the question. This confirms your [Cassel's] History of the Brethren. In the year 1823 I was baptized in Tennessee by Brother John Dick and was ordained May 14, 1826 [by Joseph Roland]. Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1,500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky. This left only a small remnant of Far western Brethren, the old ones having died. George Wolfe in Union County, ILL, myself in Rutherford Co., Middle Tennessee, having never seen each other, met in Morgan County, Illinois in 1834......" Immediately after Joseph Roland ordained Isham Gibson in 1826, he appointed Gibson as elder in charge of the Long Creek congregation in southwestern Muhlenberg County. Gibson was the first and only elder as the Long Creek congregation was constituted in 1826, and then soon after disbanded, with Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson leading the Far Western Brethren from Long Creek and Drakes Creek (in Simpson County) to Sugar Creek in Sangamon County, Illinois, where a new congregation was constituted in 1830. The Long Creek Brethren existed many years before they were "constituted" by Joseph Roland, but by then, it was too late. I sort of doubt that my gggrandfather Gibson was correct when he came up with the number of 1,500 cut off, but the solution to the cut off was the same in 1826 as it was in 1799. When, in 1799, the North Carolina Brethren were cut off for believing in Universal Restoration, they moved to Kentucky. When, in 1826, the Kentucky Brethren were cut off for how they conducted Communion, those associated with Elders Roland, Dick, and Gibson moved to Illinois. Dwayne Wrightsman

Afternoon Fellow List Members, It has been a good week all-in-all. I was able to finalize some 10 gigabytes of estate papers of interest to the Brethren Community at large and also perhaps to those with roots in Montgomery county, Ohio. These two estates of Montgomery county were for Elder David Murray and his brother-in-law, George Shank. After image processing and indexing the final size was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3½ gigabytes in total. This was done at the behest of Dr. Ron Pancner, a benefactor, for whom I say thank you for the support and I hope you appreciate the quality. With the assistance of Mr. Jesse Davis of upstate Pennsylvania we indexed the letters E and F (grooms only) of the third marriage docket of Montgomery county. This covers the years from 1837 to 1844 and the resultant index information was uploaded to the companion Montgomery county web site. Thank you Mr. Davis. During all this I also created another of my Offerings for your reading pleasure. This particular Offering took me the better part of two days as in preparing it, as often occurs, I discovered facts not in evidence in the current Brethren historical knowledge base. The research and documenting of the new facts took the majority of the time. Anyone who knows me is aware of the thoroughness of my documentation workflow. I even hate myself at times. I would highly recommend Gale and Dennis that you download the updated ministerial file as there is a lot of new information within it. Those of you interested in the latest Offering can view it by visiting http://offering.brethrenarchives.com/index.php?option=com_content <http://offering.brethrenarchives.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti cle&id=621:the-primitive-christian-offering-103&catid=38:2011&Itemid=57> &view=article&id=621:the-primitive-christian-offering-103&catid=38:2011&Item id=57. Next on my list is to get back to my scanning of the Bedford, Somerset and Fulton county, Pennsylvania history book of the late 19th Century. It has been sitting here awaiting my attention with only another two weeks or need to complete it. Last, but not the least, a thank you goes out to Mrs. Barbara Prudhoe and Mrs. Alice Miller for their support. If you want me to do anything to further your research, just ask. Cordially, Wayne Webb

> In abstracting the land records for Carroll County, Maryland to put in my > Dickensheets program I came across the following. > > Liber BFC 72 Folio 193 > > 12 Sep 1890 > > A deed for 16 square perches of land from John Leister and his wife, Susan > C. (Dickensheets) Leister to the trustees of the German Babtist Brethern of > Meadow Branch Congregation. For one dollar. The trustees were John Leister, > David D. Bousach, Abraham I. Geiman, John A. Myers and Ezra M. Bish. The Meadow Branch Church is just west of Westminster, a maybe 6 miles northeast of the Pipe Creek Church, north of New Windsor. Merle C Rummel

In abstracting the land records for Carroll County, Maryland to put in my Dickensheets program I came across the following. Liber BFC 72 Folio 193 12 Sep 1890 A deed for 16 square perches of land from John Leister and his wife, Susan C. (Dickensheets) Leister to the trustees of the German Babtist Brethern of Meadow Branch Congregation. For one dollar. The trustees were John Leister, David D. Bousach, Abraham I. Geiman, John A. Myers and Ezra M. Bish. Dale Landon ____________________________________________________________ Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! http://www.netzero.net/freeemail?refcd=NZTAGOUT1FREM0210

Correction: William Weir did live with, and was intimately connected with, the Groves, Gates, Seviers, and Shutts, but he did not marry into any of these families. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:32 PM To: [email protected]; 'Merle C Rummel' Subject: [BRE] The Weirs of Muhlenberg Elements of the Weir family of Muhlenberg County, KY, are written in Rolland F. Flory's Volume III (1976), pp. 138-139, based on his reading of the diary of James Weir. Flory says that the Weirs were "possibly" Brethren given where they lived, who they married, and their associations. James Weir was listed as Brethren by Austin Cooper, the list being included in Flory's book (p. 139). James Weir's biography and that of his family takes up all of Chapter 6 in Rothert's 1913 book HISTORY OF MUHLENBERG COUNTY. >From the Family Group Sheets posted in www.muhlenberg.genealogenie.net, the head of the Weir family was William Sr., whose will was written in 1786 in Chester County, South Carolina. The will named his widow, Susannah Miller, and his surviving children--William Jr., Elizabeth, Samuel, Elizabeth, James, Susanna, Agnes, Margaret, Jane, and Ann--all of whom migrated with their mother to Muhlenberg County. Jane [Weir] Poag married Joseph Poag as is mentioned both in Flory's book and in the will of her brother James. James was the youngest son (and the most famous of the family). The oldest surviving son was William Weir who lived on Long Creek in the southwestern corner of Muhlenberg. He lived with, married into, and was intimately connected with the Gates, Groves, Seviers, and Shutt families on Long Creek. A little background: The Long Creek Brethren congregation was officially constituted by Elder Joseph Roland in 1826. Roland ordained Isham Gibson as first elder in charge at Long Creek even though, unofficially, Elder John Dick had already led the Long Creek Brethren in 1815-1817 when he lived on Clifty Creek (located in the southern part of Muhlenberg County, the Clifty Creek headwaters being immediately east of the headwaters of Long Creek). John Dick's brother Peter Dick lived with the Long Creek Brethren from 1804, and his brother Conrad/Coonrod Dick, from 1809. All three brothers lived in the Drakes Creek community in Simpson County in 1820. I have yet to go through the Muhlenberg tax records from 1820-1829 to see who returned when. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For what it's worth, Rolland F. Flory, Volume III, pp. 135-138, has Elder Philip Younce of Ashe County, NC, and Miami County, OH, living in Muhlenberg County, KY, prior to reaching Ohio. Flory lists him as a minister along with Matthew Hamm in the period 1812-1813. My take on this is that Rev. Flory probably had his Yonts, Yonce, Younce people mixed up. Philip Younce was in Kentucky for a stretch, but where, we still don't know. I could not find him in the tax records for Muhlenberg. Dwayne Wrightsman

Elements of the Weir family of Muhlenberg County, KY, are written in Rolland F. Flory's Volume III (1976), pp. 138-139, based on his reading of the diary of James Weir. Flory says that the Weirs were "possibly" Brethren given where they lived, who they married, and their associations. James Weir was listed as Brethren by Austin Cooper, the list being included in Flory's book (p. 139). James Weir's biography and that of his family takes up all of Chapter 6 in Rothert's 1913 book HISTORY OF MUHLENBERG COUNTY. >From the Family Group Sheets posted in www.muhlenberg.genealogenie.net, the head of the Weir family was William Sr., whose will was written in 1786 in Chester County, South Carolina. The will named his widow, Susannah Miller, and his surviving children--William Jr., Elizabeth, Samuel, Elizabeth, James, Susanna, Agnes, Margaret, Jane, and Ann--all of whom migrated with their mother to Muhlenberg County. Jane [Weir] Poag married Joseph Poag as is mentioned both in Flory's book and in the will of her brother James. James was the youngest son (and the most famous of the family). The oldest surviving son was William Weir who lived on Long Creek in the southwestern corner of Muhlenberg. He lived with, married into, and was intimately connected with the Gates, Groves, Seviers, and Shutt families on Long Creek. A little background: The Long Creek Brethren congregation was officially constituted by Elder Joseph Roland in 1826. Roland ordained Isham Gibson as first elder in charge at Long Creek even though, unofficially, Elder John Dick had already led the Long Creek Brethren in 1815-1817 when he lived on Clifty Creek (located in the southern part of Muhlenberg County, the Clifty Creek headwaters being immediately east of the headwaters of Long Creek). John Dick's brother Peter Dick lived with the Long Creek Brethren from 1804, and his brother Conrad/Coonrod Dick, from 1809. All three brothers lived in the Drakes Creek community in Simpson County in 1820. I have yet to go through the Muhlenberg tax records from 1820-1829 to see who returned when. Dwayne Wrightsman

Kathleen, I have pondered those letters published by Brumbaugh more than one time and am still perplexed. Michael Etter was a Dunker minister and Elder, who in 1818 came from Huntingdon Co PA to Newton twp, Miami Co OH and with minister and Elder David Deeter formerly of Bedford Co PA formed the Panther Creek [later renamed Sugar Grove] church district. Michael died in 1847 at the age of 70, followed the next year by his 72 year old widow, Eve, both being buried in Sugar Grove Cemetery. The Elizabeth wife of A. Grubb who died in 1837 at the age of 77 would have been 17 years older than Michael. The name of Eve virsus Elizabeth throws a monkeyrench into the mix. You will find more on the name of Grubb at http://www.pcdl.lib.oh.us/miami/searchg.cfm which is an index to county records in the Miami Valley of Ohio. I found on RootsWeb, a listing of the Grubb children as Andrew, John, Jacob, Abraham, Mary w/o Jacob Smith, Catherine, Sarah, Elizabeth w/o Mr. Prough, and Samuel h/o Hannah Boyer. The contributor lists the parents as Abraham who died 1818 in Hopewell twp, Huntingdon Co PA and wife Elizabeth Fretz. I did see that other researchers place Abraham & Elizabeth (Fretz) Grubb as moving to Ontario, Canada where they apparently died, so there is an obvious mixup. Gale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Holder" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:46 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Souder/Sowders, Miami County, OH The records that led me to look in Miami County in the first place include three letters that were transcribed and printed in "The Genealogy of the Brumbach families*" by* Gaius Marcus Brumbaugh. The first letter is dated May 18, 1823 and reads: "Kind greetings to you my children Jacob Krob and Abraham and Samuel and to your wives I you mother greet you with joy and love and wish you to know that I am still in good health at this time God be thanked for it Anna too Andrews wife and his children are all still in good health for the present I you mother wish to tell you that I am still with Anna and have nothing to complain of at present I wish that these few lines may find you in good health and I wish to inform you that we sent you a letter in July. I have been wondering how it happened that you did not receive it for we wrote you everything that happened to Andreas that he died and what was his illness namely fever, Michael Etter King greetings also from me Gorg Brumbach The second letter is from John Souder and Sarah Souder to Jacob Krob to "add a few lines to my Mothers letter." The third, described as having been written on the same sheet, is addressed to "George Brumbaugh Dear Brother" and signed Joshua Souder and Mary Souder.

Dan, The Weir family is not mine, I'm just researching it in my endeavor to learn more about the Long Creek Brethren community. For interactions between William Weir and your Groves, Gates, and Shutt ancestors, I suggest you go to the shuttdescendants website and scroll through the archives of messages from the past ten years or so. There's a lot of wheat among the chaff in those archives. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 4:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] William Weir - Brethren? <<All I know is that there was a William Weir who was very involved with the Groves, Gates, and Shutt families in the early 1800s. John, George, and Michael Gates were married to the three youngest Groves sisters. Henry Shutt was married to the oldest Groves sister. The Groves brothers were Daniel, Jacob, Joseph, Jonathan, and Solomon. These nine families lived close to one another on Long Creek.>> Dwayne Wrightsman, It is unfortunate that I don't have anything for you on your Weir family. I am descended from these Gates, Groves and Shutts among others in the Muhlenberg Co., area. What kind of interaction have you seen between these and the family of William Weir? It gets quite tangled, but I'm related to all three of these families in many ways. Later, Dan Cook

<<All I know is that there was a William Weir who was very involved with the Groves, Gates, and Shutt families in the early 1800s. John, George, and Michael Gates were married to the three youngest Groves sisters. Henry Shutt was married to the oldest Groves sister. The Groves brothers were Daniel, Jacob, Joseph, Jonathan, and Solomon. These nine families lived close to one another on Long Creek.>> Dwayne Wrightsman, It is unfortunate that I don't have anything for you on your Weir family. I am descended from these Gates, Groves and Shutts among others in the Muhlenberg Co., area. What kind of interaction have you seen between these and the family of William Weir? It gets quite tangled, but I'm related to all three of these families in many ways. Later, Dan Cook

Back in 1998, Merle Rummel posted a long list of names thought to be part of the "Dutch Settlement" of Brethren in northern Muhlenberg County, KY, located in the area where the Green River and the Pond River join together. Many of them lived on Cypress Creek which joined the Pond River a few miles upstream from where the Pond River joined the Green River at the northern tip of Muhlenberg County. One of the names on Merle's list was William Weir. I suspect that the William Weir on Merle's list was the William Weir, son of William Weir Sr. and Susannah Miller, who lived in the southwest corner of Muhlenberg County and was a neighbor of the Groves, Gates, Shutt, Severs, and other families who lived on the waters of Long Creek. If so, and if he were Brethren, he was more likely to have been associated with the Long Creek Brethren than with the Dutch Settlement Brethren, but that is not the point of this query. To Merle, do you remember what the basis was upon which you listed William Weir as a possible Brethren? To other Brethren Listers, are any of you familiar with any Brethren Weir families? All I know is that there was a William Weir who was very involved with the Groves, Gates, and Shutt families in the early 1800s. John, George, and Michael Gates were married to the three youngest Groves sisters. Henry Shutt was married to the oldest Groves sister. The Groves brothers were Daniel, Jacob, Joseph, Jonathan, and Solomon. These nine families lived close to one another on Long Creek. Dwayne Wrightsman

Gale, Thank you so much. Your reading, and the groupings, do fit well with some other records I've found for some of these Grubbs and Souders So far, those records lead me to believe that: Anna Krub was widow to Andrew Krubb Elizabeth Grubb was mother to Andrew Krubb Sarah Sowders (wife of John) may have been daughter of Elizabeth Grubb Andrew Grubb is likely the son of Andrew and Anna Krubb (birth year matches, but I hadn't had a first name) Hannah Grubb Faltnor was daughter of Andrew and Anna Mary Souder was wife of Joshua Souder, and possibly nee Brumbaugh John Grubb was son of Andrew and Anna Krubb Mary Ann Grubb was wife of John, maiden name Shafer The records that led me to look in Miami County in the first place include three letters that were transcribed and printed in "The Genealogy of the Brumbach families*" by* Gaius Marcus Brumbaugh. The first of these letters is identified as coming from Michael Etter and Gorg Brumbach, but the speaker seems to be the mother of Jacob, Abraham and Samuel Krob/Grubb* *of Hopewell Township, Huntingdon Co., PA. Those names and others mentioned in the letters do match those of the children of Abraham and Elizabeth (Bowers) Grubb, my fifth great grandparents. Abraham died 1814 in Hopewell. The first letter is dated May 18, 1823 and reads: "Kind greetings to you my children Jacob Krob and Abraham and Samuel and to your wives I you mother greet you with joy and love and wish you to know that I am still in good health at this time God be thanked for it Anna too Andrews wife and his children are all still in good health for the present I you mother wish to tell you that I am still with Anna and have nothing to complain of at present I wish that these few lines may find you in good health and I wish to inform you that we sent you a letter in July. I have been wondering how it happened that you did not receive it for we wrote you everything that happened to Andreas that he died and what was his illness namely fever, Michael Etter King greetings also from me Gorg Brumbach The second letter is from John Souder and Sarah Souder to Jacob Krob to "add a few lines to my Mothers letter." The third, described as having been written on the same sheet, is addressed to "George Brumbaugh Dear Brother" and signed Joshua Souder and Mary Souder. Kathleen On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 5:45 PM, gale honeyman <[email protected]> wrote: > Kathleen, > > >From a complete reading of the Sugar Grove Cemetery by myself and the late > Joe Bosserman in summer of 1983, in rotation: > > Annah Krub, widow M to D x B 1824 [perhaps M-mother, D x B-died and buried > 1824] > Andrew Krubb, 1822, 32 [clearly cut, perhaps died 1822, age 32] > Grubb, Elizabeth, widow of A., died July 1837 in her 77th year > John Soulders, died April 11, 1863, aged 62y 6m 1d > Sarah Sowders, wife of John, died August 4, 1840 in her 45th year > Andrew Grubb, died September 16, 1840, age 20y 9m 10d > Hannah Faltnor, wife of Jacob, died August 5, 1840, aged 18y 11m 13d [note > maiden name Grubb, 1st wife of Jacob Falknor] > David P. Reece s/o G. W. & M 1840 [s/o George & Mary (Deeter) Reese, > unrelated to rest of these folks] > J. S. [initials only] > Joshua Souder, died August 31, 1846 in his 67th year > Mary Souder, age 78y 11m 21d [note, no date of death engraved] > Catharine Grubb, wife of John, died January 23, 1850, age 24y 1m 11d > John Grubb, died February 21, 1883, aged 66y 5m 5d > Mary Ann Grubb, died May 21, 1906, aged 73y 2m > all of these surnames are as they are engraved. > > I would be most interested how these Krubb/Grubbs relate to each other and > the Souders. > > Gale > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kathleen Holder" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:52 PM > Subject: [BRE] Souder/Sowders, Miami County, OH > > > >I have been puzzling over the identites of two women buried In Sugar Grove > > Cemetery in Covington, Ohio. Their headstones (per photos and > > transcriptions > > on FindAGrave), read: > > > > Mary Souder > > age 45 years > > d Aug. 4, 1840 > > w/o of John > > > > Sarah Sowders > > in her 45th year > > d Aug. 4, 1840 > > w/o of John > > > > Does anyone know anything more about them? I have been trying to > determine > > if one or both women were my Grubb kin (possibly daughters of an Abraham > > and > > Elizabeth Bowers Grubb. Also so curious that both died on the same day, > at > > the same age, with husband's names so similar. > > > > Kathleen (Grubb) Holder > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I also apologize for my part in veering the topic away from the guidelines here. What a great place to work on our genealogy at! I will stick to that from now on for sure. My Best, Iris Daughter of Ira D. Cripe On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 8:49 PM, J.A. Florian <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi James, > > I will respect your post. But I did want to write a clarification of my > first message. Rather than asking for opinion about doctrine or practices, > I had hoped to gain a little insight about the historical and > current methods of gaining and keeping membership alive. (For example, > what > do churches do when people drift away? i.e. contact them? leave them alone? > Do CObs "advertise" to the community or to its old members?) Further, I > had hoped to maybe find a small suggestion of how I, as an outsider (though > not a member), might help to support a COB church that has struggled to > keep > open. We all know that in any endeavor, it's hard to keep enthusiasm high > when we're doing a task alone (or in isolation) and how we can build each > other up in any activity (not just in religious activity). I guess I hoped > to learn more about methods used to ' grow a church' so I could be more > supportive to the remaining members. I'm in another State so there's > little > I can do in-person. > > Please respond OFF-List to cageycat "AT" gmail.com if you have a > comment > about old or new ways to build membership, or ideas about how I could be > the > most helpful or supportive. ("Reply" is set to insert the List Address so > please remember to delete that, or just open a new Compose Mail before > replying to my email address.) > > I apologize that my question veered the conversation away from the List > rules. > > Thank you, > > Judy > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 8:29 PM, James Shuman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > > > Although the first few messages on this topic were fairly acceptable, > > the nature of the thread was such that it soon veered in the > > direction that we have long asked our members not to pursue. > > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Come home to www.soldiersangels.org and adopt a Soldier! They have given so much to us.