I don't know what type(s) of Bible you prefer, but some people had a discussion about various Bibles at: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24951&forum=35&7 Judy On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Iris Wilde <[email protected]>wrote: > I am looking for an unused family bible that I may record my genealogy > history in. I'm considering an older unused Bible Could it be that someone > on this list might have some suggestions as to where I could find one? I > have seen a few online that are interesting to me. Just thought I would > send > an inquiry to this list before I made any decisions as to what toi get. > Thanks so much, Iris Daughter of Ira D. Cripe > -- >

I am looking for an unused family bible that I may record my genealogy history in. I'm considering an older unused Bible Could it be that someone on this list might have some suggestions as to where I could find one? I have seen a few online that are interesting to me. Just thought I would send an inquiry to this list before I made any decisions as to what toi get. Thanks so much, Iris Daughter of Ira D. Cripe -- Thank God for Life and Liberty

The following article is from the front page of the site Offering.BrethrenArchives.Com <http://offering.brethrenarchives.com/> . Welcome to my "little toy" of a web site and my first foray into Content Management System (CMS) software to be released to the general public. For the short term this site will be devoted solely to newspaper articles of interest to German Baptist Brethren researchers. Eventually it may become a module of a much larger web site. One item perhaps sleighted to make the transition will be my Brethren Almanac site. For the first time visitor to this site I have bad news and I have good news. The good news first. You will be able to read each and every article posted on this site. And now the bad news. You will not be able to access the "Source" file link at the bottom of each blog posting. These will be reserved for supporters of this site and / or other sites provided by your host. Any comments can be addressed by clicking on "Contact Administrator" to the left -----Original Message----- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:51:08 -0500 (EST) From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] The Primitive Christian - Offering #103 To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Can you give me the source information for the Primitive Christian-Offering #103. Thank You, Cal Sale

Greetings-For those with access to Ancestry.com or HeritageQuest.com, you can read the History of Bedford, Somerset and Fulton Counties PA online at these websites. Cynthia Metzger Mason New email: [email protected]

Merle Rummel, do you have a source for this info.? Have you found him on a ships passenger list? The date I have for his marriage is a guess at 1748, have you found proof of this date? "Anthony Hardman immigrated from switzerland in 1731 and in 1748 married a Margaret" Thank You! Carol Landergott, Hardman descendant

> I found Anthony Hardman's will in Shelby Co., KY. My Mother was a Hardman. > Thanks, Dianne Black Anthony Hardman immigrated from switzerland in 1731 and in 1748 married a Margaret He became a Dunker Minister, and was on the 1763 Annual Meeting, Standing Committee (then -chosen among Elders at the meeting). This was the time of the Catherine Hummer "problem". I have him in Frederick Co MD in 1768, then in 1770 in Middletown Valley (sold the land in 1779. He was in Washington Co PA in 1781. Then he is listed in the 1789 Jefferson Co VA tax list (which then included Shelby Co KY) he is in the 1792 Shelby Co tax list In 1795 he is listed in Shelby Co with sons David and Solomon, with Adam Harter and Jacob Ruble - on Snake Run of Guist creek and Beech Creek (mostly west of Mt Eden, maybe a little south) - he had a whiskey still. He died in 1803. I have no information on sons Daniel and Anthony. Abraham stayed in Shelby Co KY. Youngest daughter, Agnes, married Abraham Hostetler and moved to Orange Co IN, the Lost River Church (she died there, about the time it became the Liberty Church of Christ - her son was Joseph Hostetler, the "Boy Preacher", who confronted Annual Meeting about single and trine immersion baptism) Merle C Rummel

I found Anthony Hardman's will in Shelby Co., KY. My Mother was a Hardman. Thanks, Dianne Black -----Original Message----- From: Merle C Rummel Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:44 PM To: Bob Harter ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Frontier Brethren in Kentucky Book > Question: Was there also a Brethren community in Shelby County, KY? Adam > Harter married Esther Hardman, daughter of Elder Anthony Hardman. I am not > sure when they married, but he moved with the family from Frederick > County, > MD, to Washington County, PA. From there they moved with three of Esther's > brothers to Shelby County (now Spencer County), KY, before ending up in > Preble County, Ohio. > Adam Harter - Esther Hardman I have the year of 1788 for their marriage, no exact date. I have 7 children for them, with births and marriages, but not much more data. I have that, while they came to Preble Co OH (children all married there), they died in Elkhart Co IN (no exact dates -Adam about 1832 - migration about 1830). Yes, there were two church areas in the Shelby//Spencer County area. The Hardmans lived more north of Shelbyville KY, on Floyd Creek. This still seems to be the Beech Creek Church, near Mount Eden (Little Beech creek, Big Beech creek - just south of the hill up to Mt Eden).. Most of those families (Leatherman, Hardman, Hostetler, Ribble, came down from Washington Co PA (probably mostly from Washington Co MD). There was a main migration to the Dayton OH area from there. Christian Hostetler said that he moved to Dayton because they didn't speak enough German. Many of these also moved on across the Ohio River to the southern Indiana churches. The Briar Ridge Christian Church, northwest of Mt Eden, seems to be a successor of the Beech Creek Church. The other church area was the Elk Creek Church area, nearer the Falls (Louisville KY) - that area has become quite suburban, and I didn't find out much there. The Brethren seem to have lived more north of Shelbyville, on even into Oldham County Merle C Rummel ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> Question: Was there also a Brethren community in Shelby County, KY? Adam > Harter married Esther Hardman, daughter of Elder Anthony Hardman. I am not > sure when they married, but he moved with the family from Frederick County, > MD, to Washington County, PA. From there they moved with three of Esther's > brothers to Shelby County (now Spencer County), KY, before ending up in > Preble County, Ohio. > Adam Harter - Esther Hardman I have the year of 1788 for their marriage, no exact date. I have 7 children for them, with births and marriages, but not much more data. I have that, while they came to Preble Co OH (children all married there), they died in Elkhart Co IN (no exact dates -Adam about 1832 - migration about 1830). Yes, there were two church areas in the Shelby//Spencer County area. The Hardmans lived more north of Shelbyville KY, on Floyd Creek. This still seems to be the Beech Creek Church, near Mount Eden (Little Beech creek, Big Beech creek - just south of the hill up to Mt Eden).. Most of those families (Leatherman, Hardman, Hostetler, Ribble, came down from Washington Co PA (probably mostly from Washington Co MD). There was a main migration to the Dayton OH area from there. Christian Hostetler said that he moved to Dayton because they didn't speak enough German. Many of these also moved on across the Ohio River to the southern Indiana churches. The Briar Ridge Christian Church, northwest of Mt Eden, seems to be a successor of the Beech Creek Church. The other church area was the Elk Creek Church area, nearer the Falls (Louisville KY) - that area has become quite suburban, and I didn't find out much there. The Brethren seem to have lived more north of Shelbyville, on even into Oldham County Merle C Rummel

Question: Was there also a Brethren community in Shelby County, KY? Adam Harter married Esther Hardman, daughter of Elder Anthony Hardman. I am not sure when they married, but he moved with the family from Frederick County, MD, to Washington County, PA. From there they moved with three of Esther's brothers to Shelby County (now Spencer County), KY, before ending up in Preble County, Ohio. Bob Harter ---- Original Message ----- From: "Merle C Rummel" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [BRE] Frontier Brethren in Kentucky Book > >> >> Are you interested in offering copies of your book on CD for sale? It >> sounds like extremely informative reading for those of us who are tracing >> our Church of the Brethern Roots. >> >> If you are interested in selling copies of your work, what would you >> chagre per CD. >> >> Thank you for all the work you have done. I look forward to reading your >> comments on different subjects dealing with the Brethern that are posted >> here. They are especially helpful to those of us who are not brethern >> but have a little information pasted down from our grandparents and >> parents. >> >> Thank you, Sherry > > I have already sent out CD copies - I have not set any price on it - so > far I've done it free - > > I suppose total costs (CD, case and postage) come to about $5.00 - > > For some of you who have contacts to the various libraries of the > Kentucky/Ohio Valley area - If they are intereted, I would be glad to > send them copies. > > But after some new information I've gotten from Dwayne - If I get much > more, I may do some rewriting - basic research would not change, nor > most of the conclusions - just total package > > Merle C Rummel > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

> > Are you interested in offering copies of your book on CD for sale? It sounds like extremely informative reading for those of us who are tracing our Church of the Brethern Roots. > > If you are interested in selling copies of your work, what would you chagre per CD. > > Thank you for all the work you have done. I look forward to reading your comments on different subjects dealing with the Brethern that are posted here. They are especially helpful to those of us who are not brethern but have a little information pasted down from our grandparents and parents. > > Thank you, Sherry I have already sent out CD copies - I have not set any price on it - so far I've done it free - I suppose total costs (CD, case and postage) come to about $5.00 - For some of you who have contacts to the various libraries of the Kentucky/Ohio Valley area - If they are intereted, I would be glad to send them copies. But after some new information I've gotten from Dwayne - If I get much more, I may do some rewriting - basic research would not change, nor most of the conclusions - just total package Merle C Rummel

Mr. Rummel   Are you interested in offering  copies of your book on CD for sale?  It sounds like extremely informative reading for those of us who are tracing our Church of the Brethern Roots.   If you are interested in selling copies of your work, what would you chagre per CD.   Thank you for all the work you have done.  I look forward to reading your comments on different subjects dealing with the Brethern that are posted here.  They are especially helpful to those of us who are not brethern but  have a little information pasted down from our grandparents and parents.   Thank you, Sherry  George and Sherry IN GOD WE TRUST --- On Mon, 1/31/11, Merle C Rummel <[email protected]> wrote: From: Merle C Rummel <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" To: [email protected] Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 6:13 PM > I find it almost incomprehensible that poor hardworking pioneers would pull up stakes and move with great difficulty, over a  minuscule question of the order of activities at their service. Or is this just one of many reasons they move?  After "cutting off" what did they do, religiously, besides moving away? > Then in your later message you amaze me when you say that our ancestor Isham himself was cut off much later! Why? > I've just finished researching these Kentucky Churches of 1780-1820.  I call my book:  The Frontier Brethren.  Isham Gibson called them - the Western Brethren (but I didn't have this letter when I wrote my book). There were some 20 settlements in Kentucky, 5 or 6 in far southern Indiana and two in Ohio.  They often had more than one church area (usually limiting travel time to one hour - or about 2-3 miles by horse).  Those were the days before we were the German Baptist Brethren - we were just the Baptist Brethren (Taufer Gemein).  These included as ministers, two brothers of Daniel Boone:  George Boone and Squire Boone Jr.   Isham Gibson came from Tennessee to the most western of these congregations - to Muhlenberg Co KY - then moved on to Illinois. These Brethren mostly came from the Carolinas, but some came from Western Pennsylvania.  They had moved to these areas in the 1750s and 1760s.  Their worship and faith was still the original Pietism they brought over from Germany (1719, Peter Becker, and 1729, Alexander Mack).  There had been a major earthquake at New Madrid MO (Christmas - 811), on the Mississippi River (about 8.9 on the Richter Scale - 3 major shocks, about a month apart - followed by 2 years of heavy aftershocks - about 7.0).  This fueled the Great Revival, which had only previously started in Kentucky, and these Frontier Brethren were much involved and there were some Revival changes in these Frontier Brethren. During the American Revolution, the Brethren of Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland and the Valley of Virginia faced persecution because of their anti-war stance.  They associated with local Mennonite groups (Anabaptist).  Since we held to a little Anabaptist beliefs (our immersion baptism, and adult, believer's baptism) these Easter Brethren became more Anabaptist, and because of conflicts with the Radical Pietists at Ephrata Cloisters - they rejected much of their Pietism.  I call them the Annual Meeting Brethren, because this was the time of the development of the Annual Meeting and the Elders Body - controlling organizations of leadership for the church.  They made some changes to the original way some of the ordinances were practiced (the order of the communion service was one such).  They called these: "The Ancient Traditions", and became very legalistic about their practice. The Frontier Brethren were gone long before most of the Annual Meeting changes began to occur, and they were distant enough, that it seems they knew little or nothing about what the Annual Meeting Elders were doing. As the National Road opened migration west (c1825) and migration from the east poured into the Miami Valley of Ohio (Dayton area especially), the differences between these two groups of Brethren stood out.  The Annual Meeting group refused to allow Brethren to practice different from the Ancient Traditions.  The leaders were put on the Ban - in the above letter situation - two Elders of the Frontier Brethren were especially noted - Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hahn - although we have found several others that received punishment.  Teams of eastern Elders were sent out - 2 x 2 - seemingly to all, or most of these Frontier churches.  I found 5 records, with indications of more. The Frontier Brethren formed a defense in what they called:  "the Brethren Association" - to hold to their own traditions of early Pietism.  The "Boy Preacher", Joseph Hostetler, went to Annual Meeting back east in 1821, and protested some about the differences.  He raised one issue from the "Revival" - "Single Immersion - would go to heaven!" - and the conference agreed - but the Elders didn't like it (we believe in "trine immersion" - SINGLE Immersion - horrors).  That seems to have immediately preceded the Ban on his uncle, Elder Adam Hostetler. Another concept has to be included - the Brethren believed in the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their deliberations.  There could not be two opposing opinions, if all were asking the Holy Spirit for direction.  There could only be a unanimous vote!  But - These "Strange Brethren" did not practice the "Ancient Traditions".  They must change - or be "cut off" The Brethren Association said that they were "expelled".  This letter uses the term "cut off"   I took Abraham Cassel's number of 1500 to mean 1500 families -which seems to be close to the numbers I followed. Many of these Frontier Brethren went along with the Revival.  Alexander Campbell became a leading influence, and so many of the Brethren congregations became Disciples of Christ - and now are Church of Christ. Others held on to their Pietist traditions - and since the origin of the Methodists was from the Moravians (Pietists) - a number of the churches became Methodists.  (Asbury University, Wilmore KY, had the local Brethren Congregation become Methodist, involved in its founding.) Some of the Carolina Brethren had already been "attacked" over their Pietist belief in "Eternal Restoration" - not quite Universalism - and became Universalists. Others liked being Baptists - and were founding members of local Primitive Baptist and General Baptist Churches. Still others were Brethren - stayed Brethren - and migrated on - moved on to Missouri, Illinois and Iowa - as the origins of the Far Western Brethren - of 1859 Illinois conference - George Wolfe Jr.  Even there, the Annual Meeting Elders insisted on the "Ancient Traditions" and some agreed - and others refused - and many were "cut off".  The 1881-2 division of the Brethren into Progressives, German Baptists and "Old Order" cam partially over the compromises reached with the Far Western Brethren. The churches of Kentucky and far southern Indiana all disappeared (as Brethren).  The Obannon Church (just east of Cincinnati - my congregation) and the Brush Creek Churches (east in Highland and Adams Cos OH - were my father preached) were the only ones of the Frontier Brethren Churches that remained German Baptist - and they had their problems with Annual Meeting - and also with the Revival Elder Peter Hahn. - but they are still in existance - as Stonelick and Strait Creek Churches (meetinghouses of the original churches) So - yes - there were problems and results, just as this letter tells - and that is what my book is about.  If you are interested - I can give you information about these people and churches.  My book is on CD - and about 300 pages.  It traced some 75 Brethren families to Kentucky - and some of their children or grandchildren on to Missouri and Illinois as Brethren - so they were certainly Brethren in Kentucky - and i was able to confirm the general locations of the churches.  There were no records remaining, just some local stories and traditions. I did not trace Elder Isham Gibson as one of the 75 families, although he did marry into one of the "minor" families, which went from York Co PA to Rowan Co NC to Muhlenberg Co KY to Sangamon Co IL - Elizabeth, daughter of Michael Gates. Merle C Rummel                                ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN                                ------------------------                         Support Our Sponsoring Agency             The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected]                                ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Richard here is the Obituary you wanted. Dennis Roth Brethren Advocate March 30, 1880 p 3 Vol. 1 No. 36 In the bounds of the Falling Spring congregation, on the 25th of March fell asleep in Jesus, Sister Mary Good, wife of brother Henry Good, aged 65 years and 3 days. Sister Good was baptized by Elder David Bock in the Antietam congregation about 34 years ago. She was exemplary in the faith and was kind of affrication, but she rests, we trust, with the sainted dead. Funeral was largely attended on the 28th inst., at Price’s meeting house near Waynesboro. Funeral sermon was preached by Elder Jacob D. Trostle of Linganore, Md. Text, “What is your life.” James 4: 14. D. B. Mentzer. In a message dated 02/01/11 04:59:32 Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Who can get me a copy of an obit from the Brethren Advocate? The Brethren Advocate Obituary Index 1879-1882 Good, Mary (m. Henry) 65 Falling Spring I need one for Mary Good, whose obit was in the 03-30-1880 edition. Richard I’m sorry, Richard, I don’t have access to the Brethren Advocate. If I did once, I don’t remember how I found it. Dwayne Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected] ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

  Who can get me a copy of an obit from the Brethren Advocate?         The Brethren Advocate Obituary Index  1879-1882 Good, Mary (m. Henry) 65     Falling Spring I need one for Mary Good, whose  obit was in the 03-30-1880 edition. Richard   I’m sorry, Richard, I don’t have access to the Brethren Advocate.  If I did once, I don’t remember how I found it.  Dwayne Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]

Merle, if truth be told, the Götz/Gates family was indeed minor in Brethren history. It's just that the four sons of Jost Götz married into the somewhat historically important Brethren Graff/Grove/Groves family. Michael Gates and his wife Catherine Groves lived on Sugar Creek next door to Elder John Dick in Auburn Township, Sangamon County, Illinois. They died in the 1840s and were buried on the banks of Sugar Creek on John Dick's farm, where most of the early Sugar Creek Brethren were buried. Their daughter, Elizabeth Gates Gibson, was the only child of theirs who was not buried on John Dick's farm. She followed her husband, Isham Gibson, to Bates County, Missouri, and was buried next to him in 1879. Dwayne -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Merle C Rummel Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" > I have to take some exception to your description of the Gates family as a > "minor" family. First, the name was Götz. Second, Michael Götz and two of > his brothers married three of the Grove/Graff sisters from the New River, > NC, Brethren congregation in Wilkes/Ashe County. (Henry Shutt married the > fourth Grove/Graff sister.) Third, the patriarch of the Grove family in > Wilkes County, Jacob Grove/Graff, was Brethren all the way back to Lancaster > County, Pennsylvania. Fourth, his father is thought to have been the Jacob > Graff (1699-1776) of the Ephrata Cloister. Fifth, and finally, Elizabeth > "Gates" was just as much a Graff as she was a Götz, but most important she > was my gggrandmother. > > Hard for me to think of one of my ancestors as "minor." :) > Sorry Dwayne I was afraid I was going to get a reaction - when I said it that way. The Gates family was one that I gathered minimal information on, basically because it did not connect up to other families that i was researching. I was aware that if Isham Gibson married into it, that it was a solid Brethren family. It would have been so much easier working on this material - if I had had all the information you have, and Gale Honeyman has, and so many others of you - that did give me information, but that I didn't even know the right questions to ask you. This family was just that it was a minor family in my research.. Merle ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> I have to take some exception to your description of the Gates family as a > "minor" family. First, the name was Götz. Second, Michael Götz and two of > his brothers married three of the Grove/Graff sisters from the New River, > NC, Brethren congregation in Wilkes/Ashe County. (Henry Shutt married the > fourth Grove/Graff sister.) Third, the patriarch of the Grove family in > Wilkes County, Jacob Grove/Graff, was Brethren all the way back to Lancaster > County, Pennsylvania. Fourth, his father is thought to have been the Jacob > Graff (1699-1776) of the Ephrata Cloister. Fifth, and finally, Elizabeth > "Gates" was just as much a Graff as she was a Götz, but most important she > was my gggrandmother. > > Hard for me to think of one of my ancestors as "minor." :) > Sorry Dwayne I was afraid I was going to get a reaction - when I said it that way. The Gates family was one that I gathered minimal information on, basically because it did not connect up to other families that i was researching. I was aware that if Isham Gibson married into it, that it was a solid Brethren family. It would have been so much easier working on this material - if I had had all the information you have, and Gale Honeyman has, and so many others of you - that did give me information, but that I didn't even know the right questions to ask you. This family was just that it was a minor family in my research.. Merle

Merle, I have to take some exception to your description of the Gates family as a "minor" family. First, the name was Götz. Second, Michael Götz and two of his brothers married three of the Grove/Graff sisters from the New River, NC, Brethren congregation in Wilkes/Ashe County. (Henry Shutt married the fourth Grove/Graff sister.) Third, the patriarch of the Grove family in Wilkes County, Jacob Grove/Graff, was Brethren all the way back to Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Fourth, his father is thought to have been the Jacob Graff (1699-1776) of the Ephrata Cloister. Fifth, and finally, Elizabeth "Gates" was just as much a Graff as she was a Götz, but most important she was my gggrandmother. Hard for me to think of one of my ancestors as "minor." :) Dwayne -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Merle C Rummel Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" I did not trace Elder Isham Gibson as one of the 75 families, although he did marry into one of the "minor" families, which went from York Co PA to Rowan Co NC to Muhlenberg Co KY to Sangamon Co IL - Elizabeth, daughter of Michael Gates. Merle C Rummel

The history of the Brethren Church west of the Green River in Western Kentucky in the early 1800s is replete with unanswered questions. In 1830, Joseph Roland, elder at the Drakes Creek congregation in Simpson (then Warren) County, Kentucky, wrote a short history of the churches which he personally established, which was published in 1908 by the Southern District of Illinois. He says that he "constituted" the church in Grayson County, KY, on October 2, 1814, the church in Muhlenberg County, KY, on June 8,1814, and the church on Long Creek, Muhlenberg County, KY, on September 20, 1826. The first unanswered question has to do with the church in Grayson County. Other than Roland's claim that there was such a church, I and others have been unable to find out anything about it. The second unanswered question comes from David B. Eller's Ph.D. dissertation of 1976, p. 102, in which he questioned the 1814 and 1826 years of the organization of the two churches in Muhlenberg County, given that there was considerable Brethren activity in Muhlenberg going back to the beginning of the century. I think this second question may have an easy answer: Historically, a Brethren congregation starts out with a central location from which distant preaching points are added as the membership expands from its central location. Over time, as a preaching point becomes sufficiently large, it spins off from the mother church and establishes itself as its own congregation. This happened over and over in Lancaster County with the Conestoga Congregation, which was organized in 1724. For example, the Little Swatara Church was "founded" in 1757, but it did not grow and break off from the larger Swatara Congregation until 1798 or 1800. Prior to that, the Swatara Church, itself, did not grow and break off from the mother Conestoga Congregation until 1772. I think that the same sort of thing happened in Kentucky. The Drakes Creek Congregation was the mother church. The Brethren in Muhlenberg County gave rise to distant preaching points fanning out from Drakes Creek. The organization of the Muhlenberg County Congregation in 1814 came after the members reached a critical size to warrant having their own minister and elder-in-charge. So who was put in charge of the Muhlenberg County Brethren in 1814? Probably not Samuel Donner who came later. Probably not Benjamin Coffman who, although in the right place at the right time, was not a minister. My guess is that it was John Dick. He moved into Muhlenberg County in 1814 where his brother Peter had settled in 1799, and where his brother Conrad also lived. John Dick became certified by the county officials, in early 1816, as a Brethren minister to perform marriages, Benjamin Coffman and Henry Shutt posting bond of 500 pounds. He married John Shutt and Catherine Gates in 1819. He married Jacob Noftsinger and Mary Noftsinger in 1820. During the 1820s, John Dick's son, Daniel lived and paid taxes in Muhlenberg County while Daniel was still single. Daniel Dick married Susan Gates in 1830. I assume that his father, Elder John Dick, stayed with his son while in Muhlenberg. In 1820, John Dick lived in Simpson County, close to the action of the Drakes Creek Church. Muhlenberg and Simpson were not particularly far apart, especially for circuit riding ministers who were used to serving distant preaching points. John Dick was certainly an up-and-around elder. He worked in both Tennessee and in Kentucky. If I am correct, the Muhlenberg County church established in 1814 was the so-called "Dutch Settlement" on Cypress Creek, near Bremen, in the northern part of the county. Members of this church included, among others, Benjamin Coffman, Samuel Danner, Jacob Garst, the seven Gish brothers, John Gossett, Rudolph Kittinger, the three Noffsinger/Noftsinger brothers, Michael Frantz III, the Landis families, and the Shavers. Most, if not all, of these were from Botetourt and Franklin Counties, Virginia. Although also in Muhlenberg County, the Long Creek Brethren, who lived in the south of the county, were probably a preaching point until they grew sufficiently large to be organized into their own church in 1826. This church was headed by Isham Gibson, who was baptized by John Dick in 1823, and ordained by Joseph Roland as a "bishop" in 1826. He was non-German and from Middle Tennessee. He was immediately appointed by Joseph Roland to head the newly established Long Creek Church. There he met Elizabeth Gates, marrying her in 1830. Just about the time that the Long Creek Church was established, the Brethren in this part of Kentucky, including Drakes Creek as well as Long Creek, were "cut off" (expelled) for not obeying the edicts of Annual Meeting. Those who stayed joined other denominations. Some followed their leaders--Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson--and moved to Central Illinois, where they thought they could be left alone, but, as things turned out, not for very many years. By 1870, the Far Western Brethren were outnumbered by Eastern Brethren from Ohio. Elder Isham Gibson was disfellowshipped by his own church in 1869. Dwayne Wrightsman

> I find it almost incomprehensible that poor hardworking pioneers would pull up stakes and move with great difficulty, over a minuscule question of the order of activities at their service. Or is this just one of many reasons they move? After "cutting off" what did they do, religiously, besides moving away? > Then in your later message you amaze me when you say that our ancestor Isham himself was cut off much later! Why? > I've just finished researching these Kentucky Churches of 1780-1820. I call my book: The Frontier Brethren. Isham Gibson called them - the Western Brethren (but I didn't have this letter when I wrote my book). There were some 20 settlements in Kentucky, 5 or 6 in far southern Indiana and two in Ohio. They often had more than one church area (usually limiting travel time to one hour - or about 2-3 miles by horse). Those were the days before we were the German Baptist Brethren - we were just the Baptist Brethren (Taufer Gemein). These included as ministers, two brothers of Daniel Boone: George Boone and Squire Boone Jr. Isham Gibson came from Tennessee to the most western of these congregations - to Muhlenberg Co KY - then moved on to Illinois. These Brethren mostly came from the Carolinas, but some came from Western Pennsylvania. They had moved to these areas in the 1750s and 1760s. Their worship and faith was still the original Pietism they brought over from Germany (1719, Peter Becker, and 1729, Alexander Mack). There had been a major earthquake at New Madrid MO (Christmas - 811), on the Mississippi River (about 8.9 on the Richter Scale - 3 major shocks, about a month apart - followed by 2 years of heavy aftershocks - about 7.0). This fueled the Great Revival, which had only previously started in Kentucky, and these Frontier Brethren were much involved and there were some Revival changes in these Frontier Brethren. During the American Revolution, the Brethren of Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland and the Valley of Virginia faced persecution because of their anti-war stance. They associated with local Mennonite groups (Anabaptist). Since we held to a little Anabaptist beliefs (our immersion baptism, and adult, believer's baptism) these Easter Brethren became more Anabaptist, and because of conflicts with the Radical Pietists at Ephrata Cloisters - they rejected much of their Pietism. I call them the Annual Meeting Brethren, because this was the time of the development of the Annual Meeting and the Elders Body - controlling organizations of leadership for the church. They made some changes to the original way some of the ordinances were practiced (the order of the communion service was one such). They called these: "The Ancient Traditions", and became very legalistic about their practice. The Frontier Brethren were gone long before most of the Annual Meeting changes began to occur, and they were distant enough, that it seems they knew little or nothing about what the Annual Meeting Elders were doing. As the National Road opened migration west (c1825) and migration from the east poured into the Miami Valley of Ohio (Dayton area especially), the differences between these two groups of Brethren stood out. The Annual Meeting group refused to allow Brethren to practice different from the Ancient Traditions. The leaders were put on the Ban - in the above letter situation - two Elders of the Frontier Brethren were especially noted - Elder Adam Hostetler and Elder Peter Hahn - although we have found several others that received punishment. Teams of eastern Elders were sent out - 2 x 2 - seemingly to all, or most of these Frontier churches. I found 5 records, with indications of more. The Frontier Brethren formed a defense in what they called: "the Brethren Association" - to hold to their own traditions of early Pietism. The "Boy Preacher", Joseph Hostetler, went to Annual Meeting back east in 1821, and protested some about the differences. He raised one issue from the "Revival" - "Single Immersion - would go to heaven!" - and the conference agreed - but the Elders didn't like it (we believe in "trine immersion" - SINGLE Immersion - horrors). That seems to have immediately preceded the Ban on his uncle, Elder Adam Hostetler. Another concept has to be included - the Brethren believed in the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their deliberations. There could not be two opposing opinions, if all were asking the Holy Spirit for direction. There could only be a unanimous vote! But - These "Strange Brethren" did not practice the "Ancient Traditions". They must change - or be "cut off" The Brethren Association said that they were "expelled". This letter uses the term "cut off" I took Abraham Cassel's number of 1500 to mean 1500 families -which seems to be close to the numbers I followed. Many of these Frontier Brethren went along with the Revival. Alexander Campbell became a leading influence, and so many of the Brethren congregations became Disciples of Christ - and now are Church of Christ. Others held on to their Pietist traditions - and since the origin of the Methodists was from the Moravians (Pietists) - a number of the churches became Methodists. (Asbury University, Wilmore KY, had the local Brethren Congregation become Methodist, involved in its founding.) Some of the Carolina Brethren had already been "attacked" over their Pietist belief in "Eternal Restoration" - not quite Universalism - and became Universalists. Others liked being Baptists - and were founding members of local Primitive Baptist and General Baptist Churches. Still others were Brethren - stayed Brethren - and migrated on - moved on to Missouri, Illinois and Iowa - as the origins of the Far Western Brethren - of 1859 Illinois conference - George Wolfe Jr. Even there, the Annual Meeting Elders insisted on the "Ancient Traditions" and some agreed - and others refused - and many were "cut off". The 1881-2 division of the Brethren into Progressives, German Baptists and "Old Order" cam partially over the compromises reached with the Far Western Brethren. The churches of Kentucky and far southern Indiana all disappeared (as Brethren). The Obannon Church (just east of Cincinnati - my congregation) and the Brush Creek Churches (east in Highland and Adams Cos OH - were my father preached) were the only ones of the Frontier Brethren Churches that remained German Baptist - and they had their problems with Annual Meeting - and also with the Revival Elder Peter Hahn. - but they are still in existance - as Stonelick and Strait Creek Churches (meetinghouses of the original churches) So - yes - there were problems and results, just as this letter tells - and that is what my book is about. If you are interested - I can give you information about these people and churches. My book is on CD - and about 300 pages. It traced some 75 Brethren families to Kentucky - and some of their children or grandchildren on to Missouri and Illinois as Brethren - so they were certainly Brethren in Kentucky - and i was able to confirm the general locations of the churches. There were no records remaining, just some local stories and traditions. I did not trace Elder Isham Gibson as one of the 75 families, although he did marry into one of the "minor" families, which went from York Co PA to Rowan Co NC to Muhlenberg Co KY to Sangamon Co IL - Elizabeth, daughter of Michael Gates. Merle C Rummel

Can you give me the source information for the Primitive Christian-Offering #103. Thank You, Cal Sale -----Original Message----- From: A. Wayne Webb <[email protected]> To: brethren <[email protected]>; montgomery_co_oh <[email protected]>; pabedfor <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:18 pm Subject: [BRE] The Primitive Christian - Offering #103 Afternoon Fellow List Members, It has been a good week all-in-all. I was able to finalize some 10 igabytes of estate papers of interest to the Brethren Community at large nd also perhaps to those with roots in Montgomery county, Ohio. These two states of Montgomery county were for Elder David Murray and his rother-in-law, George Shank. After image processing and indexing the final ize was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3½ gigabytes in total. This was one at the behest of Dr. Ron Pancner, a benefactor, for whom I say thank ou for the support and I hope you appreciate the quality. With the assistance of Mr. Jesse Davis of upstate Pennsylvania we indexed he letters E and F (grooms only) of the third marriage docket of Montgomery ounty. This covers the years from 1837 to 1844 and the resultant index nformation was uploaded to the companion Montgomery county web site. Thank ou Mr. Davis. During all this I also created another of my Offerings for your reading leasure. This particular Offering took me the better part of two days as n preparing it, as often occurs, I discovered facts not in evidence in the urrent Brethren historical knowledge base. The research and documenting of he new facts took the majority of the time. Anyone who knows me is aware f the thoroughness of my documentation workflow. I even hate myself at imes. I would highly recommend Gale and Dennis that you download the pdated ministerial file as there is a lot of new information within it. Those of you interested in the latest Offering can view it by visiting ttp://offering.brethrenarchives.com/index.php?option=com_content http://offering.brethrenarchives.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti le&id=621:the-primitive-christian-offering-103&catid=38:2011&Itemid=57> view=article&id=621:the-primitive-christian-offering-103&catid=38:2011&Item d=57. Next on my list is to get back to my scanning of the Bedford, omerset and Fulton county, Pennsylvania history book of the late 19th entury. It has been sitting here awaiting my attention with only another wo weeks or need to complete it. Last, but not the least, a thank you goes out to Mrs. Barbara Prudhoe and rs. Alice Miller for their support. If you want me to do anything to urther your research, just ask. Cordially, Wayne Webb ------------------------ earch the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) or further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Hal, Isham Gibson wrote two letters to the Brethren historian and archivist, Abraham Harley Cassel, during the month of April 1869, the year that Isham was "cut off" (you would call it excommunicated) describing his experience in Kentucky and Illinois dealing with rulings of church practices and individual behavior from Annual Meeting authorities to the individual congregations and the general membership. In Gibson's case, he was eventually disfellowshipped or banned for how Communion was conducted in the congregations over which he was in charge. Usually it was a long process. He was an elder in charge in Kentucky from 1826 to 1830, and in Illinois from 1830-1869. Entire memberships of congregations of the Brethren were sometimes cut off by decisions made at the Annual Meeting. This happened to the North Carolina Brethren in 1798 for their beliefs in Universal Restoration. It happened to the Kentucky Brethren in the 1820s for practicing an unacceptable mode of Communion. The mode of Baptism was another big issue in Kentucky. Some of the issues may seem petty/trivial/miniscule to you and me, but they were considered as big doctrinal issues at that time in history. The Brethren were democratic in certain ways, but if there were an unresolved issue, the resolution was handed down by rulings of the central governing body of the Annual Meeting. Members would either have to conform, or go elsewhere. Elsewhere meant join some other denomination near where you live, or pull up your congregation and move and do things your own way out of sight of the authorities. Isham Gibson seems to have been the one to coin the term Far Western Brethren, based on what we read from his letters to Cassel, and in that sense, Far Western meant distancing yourself geographically from the source of authority (concentrated in the Eastern states of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, and later Ohio). When Isham Gibson was personally banned in 1869, he responded by moving farther west into Missouri and also by joining the Congregational Brethren sect, made up of former Brethren opposed to the authority of Annual Meeting. I would not worry about making sense of the wording of the Isham Gibson letters. He was not a very good writer, especially in his non-use of punctuation, and in his leaving out words that would have brought much fuller meaning to what he was trying to say. Remember, the Annual Meeting Eastern Brethren had the final say, and it was not in favor of the beliefs and practices of Gibson's Far Western Brethren. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Harald S. Gibson Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] "Somewhere between 1820 and 1826 there was cut off about 1, 500 Brethren and sisters in Kentucky" Dwayne, I am really confused about our ancestor Isham's letter.  At the 1820 meeting, it was decided to wash feet between supper and communion. But then one guy said if he produced evidence that feet were washed before supper, would they not then comply,to which they agreed. Then they sent testimony which settled the question.  !!??? So, first they decided to wash feet between. Then Roland asked his question, and they agreed. But it did not say that he did produce evidence, and I cannot imagine what it could have been.But it sounds like he did, and they agreed, which means to me that they changed their minds and went for washing before supper and communion. Is this the case? Does the testimony they sent then say they agreed to the before-supper idea? It settled the question, for whom?  Then between 1820 and 26, the big cutoff! Was it Because of their answer? If their "testimony" settled the question, then why were they cut off?    I find it almost incomprehensible that poor hardworking pioneers would pull up stakes and move with great difficulty, over a  minuscule question of the order of activities at their service. Or is this just one of many reasons they move?  After "cutting off" what did they do, religiously, besides moving away? Then in your later message you amaze me when you say that our ancestor Isham himself was cut off much later! Why? for what terrible horrible earthshaking heresy? And what followed that excommunication? This is the first I had heard of my grandfather's grandfather's letter, most curious indeed. Hal Gibson