I have no knowledge of the Rhodes family being described in this email nor do I have knowledge of the Kentucky-Illinois migration. I do have similar circumstances: In Lincoln County, NC by the early 1830's the two Brethren ministers, Henry Rhodes and Lorentz Linhardt (Leonhardt) had both died. The Dunker congregations that they headed ceased to exist. But many if not most of the members became regular Baptists. It was a rather smooth theological progression from German Baptist to regular Baptist in North Carolina. May I suggest that it is possible that a similar progression occurred in Grayson Co, KY and then into their new Illinois home. They may have already joined regular Baptists in Kentucky before their move to Illinois. If the Grayson Co Brethren congregation was indeed small, it may have been necessary for them to join with other neighbor Baptists. It is especially revealing that two of Rhodes brothers in Illinois were described as Baptists. I would suggest that they were Brethren who became regular Baptists. In areas where there were few Brethren the transition to regular Baptist was both possible and rather plausible. In Lincoln County, North Carolina no Dunker congregations survived into the 1840's or 50's and their recollection was not common knowledge. Robert Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [BRE] The Henry Rhoads Family in Grayson County, Kentucky > As a follow-up to my earlier message below, I checked the 1820 census for > Kentucky and found 17 households with the surname Rhoads. There were 10 > households in Muhlenberg County, 6 households (Jacob and his sons) in > GRAYSON COUNTY, and 1 household in Caldwell County.. The Jacob Vanmeter > household was still in Hardin County, and the Christopher Jackson > household > in Ohio County. I also noted from Merle's list that Jacob Rhoads of > Grayson > County died in Macoupin County, Illinois, in circa 1835. Checking my > Macoupin County history books, I found that Jacob Rhoads was the first > settler to buy land, 6 July 1830, in Chesterfield Township, Macoupin > County. > Jesse Rhoads was second, 8 Sept. 1830. "In 1831, John, Henry, Samuel, > Jesse, Jacob, and Josiah Rhodes, six brothers, all having families, > settled > in the southwest portion known as Rhoads' Point, and the present site of > Medora." All of these brothers except Josiah were listed in the 1820 > census > for Grayson County, KY. In Macoupin County, "Jacob and John Rhoads, > Baptists, preached......at Rhoads' Point." "Dr. Henry Rhoads was the > first > physician in the township. He settled at Rhoads' Point in 1831, as above > stated." > > I have no idea if these Rhoads families were Brethren in Grayson County, > KY, > before moving to Illinois, circa 1830, but, if they were, their exodus > from > Kentucky would have been at the very same time that so many known Brethren > from Drakes Creek in Simpson County and from Long Creek in Muhlenberg > County > moved out of KY and settled in Sangamon, Morgan, and Macoupin Counties in > Illinois. 1830 pretty much marked the Far-Western Brethren exodus from > Kentucky led by Elders Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson. > > I suspect that the Rhoads families of Grayson County might have been a > part > of the Grayson County, KY, Brethren church of 1814 organized by Joseph > Roland. But if they were, they were not Brethren after they arrived in > Illinois. Jacob Rhoads was moderator and Henry Rhoads was clerk of the > five-member Baptist Church located in Medora, organized by them 21 April > 1832. > > Dwayne Wrightsman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:10 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [BRE] The Henry Rhoads Family in Grayson County, Kentucky > > I may have a partial answer to my query about the organization of the > Grayson County, KY, church in 1814. I found my answer from Merle Rummel's > listing of the Henry and Elizabeth Dovey Stoner Rhoads family posted on > the > Brethren List, June 13, 2008, and from going through Kentucky census > records > for 1810, and then piecing the two together. > > > > Henry Rhoads and his family migrated from PA to KY in the 1700s before > Kentucky was a state, with most of the family ultimately settling in what > was to become Muhlenberg County. Along the way in Kentucky, their > children > were married, the older ones in Nelson/Hardin/Ohio/Grayson County, and the > two younger ones in Lincoln/Logan/Christian/Muhlenberg. > > > > Bear in mind that Grayson County was spun off from Ohio and Hardin > Counties, > Ohio County was spun off from Hardin County, and Hardin County was spun > off > from Nelson County. Also bear in mind that Muhlenberg County was spun off > from Christian and Logan Counties, Christian County was spun off from > Logan > County, and Logan County was spun off from Lincoln County. > > > > In 1810, most of Henry Rhoads' children (all married) and their families > were recorded in the Muhlenberg County census, but four of the married > children and their families were living in Grayson/Hardin/Ohio Counties. > These four were (1) John Rhoads (wife unknown), (2) Jacob Rhoads (who > married Alsey Vanmeter), (3) Caterina Rhoads (who married Christopher > Jackson), and (4) Elizabeth Rhoads (who married Jacob Vanmeter). Both > John > and Jacob were listed in the Grayson County census of 1810. Several > Vanmeters were also listed in the Grayson County census, but Jacob > Vanmeter > (with wife Elizabeth Rhoads) was listed in the Hardin County census. > (Hardin County is adjacent to Grayson County.) Christopher Jackson (with > wife Caterina Rhoads) was listed in the Ohio County census. (Ohio County > is > also adjacent to Grayson County). All of these counties are northeast of > Muhlenberg County and on the east side of the Green River. > > > > I don't know the extent to which these Rhoads families were Brethren, but > if > they were, they, with perhaps other Brethren, may have coalesced into a > small congregation in the Grayson County area of which Joseph Roland from > Drakes Creek officially organized as a church in 1814. This is neither a > good nor complete answer to whether there was a Grayson County Brethren > church in Kentucky, in 1814, but hopefully it might be a start to > answering > the question. > > > > Dwayne Wrightsman > > > > > > ------------------------ > Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN > ------------------------ > Support Our Sponsoring Agency > The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) > For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] > ------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

As a follow-up to my earlier message below, I checked the 1820 census for Kentucky and found 17 households with the surname Rhoads. There were 10 households in Muhlenberg County, 6 households (Jacob and his sons) in GRAYSON COUNTY, and 1 household in Caldwell County.. The Jacob Vanmeter household was still in Hardin County, and the Christopher Jackson household in Ohio County. I also noted from Merle's list that Jacob Rhoads of Grayson County died in Macoupin County, Illinois, in circa 1835. Checking my Macoupin County history books, I found that Jacob Rhoads was the first settler to buy land, 6 July 1830, in Chesterfield Township, Macoupin County. Jesse Rhoads was second, 8 Sept. 1830. "In 1831, John, Henry, Samuel, Jesse, Jacob, and Josiah Rhodes, six brothers, all having families, settled in the southwest portion known as Rhoads' Point, and the present site of Medora." All of these brothers except Josiah were listed in the 1820 census for Grayson County, KY. In Macoupin County, "Jacob and John Rhoads, Baptists, preached......at Rhoads' Point." "Dr. Henry Rhoads was the first physician in the township. He settled at Rhoads' Point in 1831, as above stated." I have no idea if these Rhoads families were Brethren in Grayson County, KY, before moving to Illinois, circa 1830, but, if they were, their exodus from Kentucky would have been at the very same time that so many known Brethren from Drakes Creek in Simpson County and from Long Creek in Muhlenberg County moved out of KY and settled in Sangamon, Morgan, and Macoupin Counties in Illinois. 1830 pretty much marked the Far-Western Brethren exodus from Kentucky led by Elders Joseph Roland, John Dick, and Isham Gibson. I suspect that the Rhoads families of Grayson County might have been a part of the Grayson County, KY, Brethren church of 1814 organized by Joseph Roland. But if they were, they were not Brethren after they arrived in Illinois. Jacob Rhoads was moderator and Henry Rhoads was clerk of the five-member Baptist Church located in Medora, organized by them 21 April 1832. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:10 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] The Henry Rhoads Family in Grayson County, Kentucky I may have a partial answer to my query about the organization of the Grayson County, KY, church in 1814. I found my answer from Merle Rummel's listing of the Henry and Elizabeth Dovey Stoner Rhoads family posted on the Brethren List, June 13, 2008, and from going through Kentucky census records for 1810, and then piecing the two together. Henry Rhoads and his family migrated from PA to KY in the 1700s before Kentucky was a state, with most of the family ultimately settling in what was to become Muhlenberg County. Along the way in Kentucky, their children were married, the older ones in Nelson/Hardin/Ohio/Grayson County, and the two younger ones in Lincoln/Logan/Christian/Muhlenberg. Bear in mind that Grayson County was spun off from Ohio and Hardin Counties, Ohio County was spun off from Hardin County, and Hardin County was spun off from Nelson County. Also bear in mind that Muhlenberg County was spun off from Christian and Logan Counties, Christian County was spun off from Logan County, and Logan County was spun off from Lincoln County. In 1810, most of Henry Rhoads' children (all married) and their families were recorded in the Muhlenberg County census, but four of the married children and their families were living in Grayson/Hardin/Ohio Counties. These four were (1) John Rhoads (wife unknown), (2) Jacob Rhoads (who married Alsey Vanmeter), (3) Caterina Rhoads (who married Christopher Jackson), and (4) Elizabeth Rhoads (who married Jacob Vanmeter). Both John and Jacob were listed in the Grayson County census of 1810. Several Vanmeters were also listed in the Grayson County census, but Jacob Vanmeter (with wife Elizabeth Rhoads) was listed in the Hardin County census. (Hardin County is adjacent to Grayson County.) Christopher Jackson (with wife Caterina Rhoads) was listed in the Ohio County census. (Ohio County is also adjacent to Grayson County). All of these counties are northeast of Muhlenberg County and on the east side of the Green River. I don't know the extent to which these Rhoads families were Brethren, but if they were, they, with perhaps other Brethren, may have coalesced into a small congregation in the Grayson County area of which Joseph Roland from Drakes Creek officially organized as a church in 1814. This is neither a good nor complete answer to whether there was a Grayson County Brethren church in Kentucky, in 1814, but hopefully it might be a start to answering the question. Dwayne Wrightsman

I may have a partial answer to my query about the organization of the Grayson County, KY, church in 1814. I found my answer from Merle Rummel's listing of the Henry and Elizabeth Dovey Stoner Rhoads family posted on the Brethren List, June 13, 2008, and from going through Kentucky census records for 1810, and then piecing the two together. Henry Rhoads and his family migrated from PA to KY in the 1700s before Kentucky was a state, with most of the family ultimately settling in what was to become Muhlenberg County. Along the way in Kentucky, their children were married, the older ones in Nelson/Hardin/Ohio/Grayson County, and the two younger ones in Lincoln/Logan/Christian/Muhlenberg. Bear in mind that Grayson County was spun off from Ohio and Hardin Counties, Ohio County was spun off from Hardin County, and Hardin County was spun off from Nelson County. Also bear in mind that Muhlenberg County was spun off from Christian and Logan Counties, Christian County was spun off from Logan County, and Logan County was spun off from Lincoln County. In 1810, most of Henry Rhoads' children (all married) and their families were recorded in the Muhlenberg County census, but four of the married children and their families were living in Grayson/Hardin/Ohio Counties. These four were (1) John Rhoads (wife unknown), (2) Jacob Rhoads (who married Alsey Vanmeter), (3) Caterina Rhoads (who married Christopher Jackson), and (4) Elizabeth Rhoads (who married Jacob Vanmeter). Both John and Jacob were listed in the Grayson County census of 1810. Several Vanmeters were also listed in the Grayson County census, but Jacob Vanmeter (with wife Elizabeth Rhoads) was listed in the Hardin County census. (Hardin County is adjacent to Grayson County.) Christopher Jackson (with wife Caterina Rhoads) was listed in the Ohio County census. (Ohio County is also adjacent to Grayson County). All of these counties are northeast of Muhlenberg County and on the east side of the Green River. I don't know the extent to which these Rhoads families were Brethren, but if they were, they, with perhaps other Brethren, may have coalesced into a small congregation in the Grayson County area of which Joseph Roland from Drakes Creek officially organized as a church in 1814. This is neither a good nor complete answer to whether there was a Grayson County Brethren church in Kentucky, in 1814, but hopefully it might be a start to answering the question. Dwayne Wrightsman

Now I know why that sounded familiar! I have the info we discussed filed somewhere, but obviously not in my brain. Bill T. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Bill, Based on previous discussions that you and I have had on this matter, it turns out that this particular marriage between a John Gerber (b. circa 1760) and an Anna could not have been the Anna Kauffman daughter of Henry Kauffman who married a Gerber/Garber of the same name, the reason being that the John Gerber you describe is one or two generations too young, or putting it the other way, Anna Kaufman was one or two generations too old. I think that I brought up the possibility that the correct John Gerber/Garber husband may have been the one who was with the Ephrata Society, especially since Anna's sister Maria was married to Jacob Graff of the Ephrata Society, but our discussion never went beyond that. As I recall, I don't think either one of us could get a decent handle on who the Gerber/Garber of Ephrata was. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of William Thomas Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne: According to my Garber/Gerber files, a John Gerber (b. circa 1760) s/o Jacob Gerber, and grandson of immigrant Christian Gerber (1702 to 1769), was married to an Anna (Kauffman??). He purchased his father's farm in Donegal Twp. in 1802 and sold it in 1822. He disappears after that. Christian was Mennonite and lived in what is now West Hempfield Township. The footnotes state that some have erroneously tied Christian to the John Garber brother of Nicholas who died in 1748. The 1748 family is the Brethren Garber family. Bill Thomas ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Other than a document written by Elder Joseph Roland of Western Kentucky Brethren fame, in which he claims he organized a Brethren church in Grayson County, Kentucky, in October 1814, I have yet to see anyone ever write anything about it in the Brethren literature. I'm speaking of the writings of David B. Eller, our own Merle Rummel, Roger Sappington, Rolland F. Flory, J. H. Moore, the Brethren Encyclopedia, etc. There's nothing out there that I can find. Was there really such a church? There are names in the 1810 census for Grayson County that look like Brethren names, but I don't know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. I chose the 1810 census (preceding the alleged 1814 organization) since Brethren congregations usually seem to be officially organized after the fact from already established groups of preaching-point members and participants. I would have liked to copy the list of names from the 1810 census to this site but could not without permission and a lot of red tape. Maybe some of you have the time and interest to see if you can find any familiar names. The census is easy to access by Googling "1810 census Grayson County Kentucky" which brings you to the page for Kentucky counties that start with the letter G. From there one just scrolls down to Grayson. There were not many families living there back in 1810, and it has a low population even today. Dwayne Wrightsman

Bill, Based on previous discussions that you and I have had on this matter, it turns out that this particular marriage between a John Gerber (b. circa 1760) and an Anna could not have been the Anna Kauffman daughter of Henry Kauffman who married a Gerber/Garber of the same name, the reason being that the John Gerber you describe is one or two generations too young, or putting it the other way, Anna Kaufman was one or two generations too old. I think that I brought up the possibility that the correct John Gerber/Garber husband may have been the one who was with the Ephrata Society, especially since Anna's sister Maria was married to Jacob Graff of the Ephrata Society, but our discussion never went beyond that. As I recall, I don't think either one of us could get a decent handle on who the Gerber/Garber of Ephrata was. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of William Thomas Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne: According to my Garber/Gerber files, a John Gerber (b. circa 1760) s/o Jacob Gerber, and grandson of immigrant Christian Gerber (1702 to 1769), was married to an Anna (Kauffman??). He purchased his father's farm in Donegal Twp. in 1802 and sold it in 1822. He disappears after that. Christian was Mennonite and lived in what is now West Hempfield Township. The footnotes state that some have erroneously tied Christian to the John Garber brother of Nicholas who died in 1748. The 1748 family is the Brethren Garber family. Bill Thomas

--- On Wed, 3/23/11, Wayne Lucore <[email protected]> wrote: From: Wayne Lucore <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [BRE] Was there really a Grayson County, Kentucky, Brethren Church? To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2011, 4:38 PM In looking at my tree, it appears the main family I find in Grayson Co, KY is Stovers, - Joseph b 1803 VA, sons Albert b 1825 and Lewis b 1840.  These were descendants of Rev Wm Stover of Antietam and thus distant cousins of mine, probably Brethren.   Wayne Lucore --- On Wed, 3/23/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Was there really a Grayson County, Kentucky, Brethren Church? To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2011, 3:02 PM Other than a document written by Elder Joseph Roland of Western Kentucky Brethren fame, in which he claims he organized a Brethren church in Grayson County, Kentucky, in October 1814, I have yet to see anyone ever write anything about it in the Brethren literature.  I'm speaking of the writings of David B. Eller, our own Merle Rummel, Roger Sappington, Rolland F. Flory, J. H. Moore, the Brethren Encyclopedia, etc.  There's nothing out there that I can find. Was there really such a church? There are names in the 1810 census for Grayson County that look like Brethren names, but I don't know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. I chose the 1810 census (preceding the alleged 1814 organization) since Brethren congregations usually seem to be officially organized after the fact from already established groups of preaching-point members and participants. I would have liked to copy the list of names from the 1810 census to this site but could not without permission and a lot of red tape.  Maybe some of you have the time and interest to see if you can find any familiar names. The census is easy to access by Googling "1810 census Grayson County Kentucky" which brings you to the page for Kentucky counties that start with the letter G.  From there one just scrolls down to Grayson.  There were not many families living there back in 1810, and it has a low population even today. Dwayne Wrightsman  

Dwayne: According to my Garber/Gerber files, a John Gerber (b. circa 1760) s/o Jacob Gerber, and grandson of immigrant Christian Gerber (1702 to 1769), was married to an Anna (Kauffman??). He purchased his father's farm in Donegal Twp. in 1802 and sold it in 1822. He disappears after that. Christian was Mennonite and lived in what is now West Hempfield Township. The footnotes state that some have erroneously tied Christian to the John Garber brother of Nicholas who died in 1748. The 1748 family is the Brethren Garber family. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Ellen, after spending much of the day yesterday mulling it over, I simply don't have enough evidence to go forward with the idea that Elder John Garber Sr. of PA, MD, and VA was married prior to his marriage to Barbara Miller. For three years I have been looking for the John Gerber/Garber who was married to Anna Kauffman (daughter of Henry Kauffman of Manheim Township, Lancaster County). Based on thinking about it yesterday and last night, I don't believe that the Elder John Garber who was married to Barbara Miller had a previous marriage with Anna Kauffman. I'm sorry for stirring up the pot. Incidentally, for those who are interested in the 1787 will of Elder John Garber, in which he names his ten children, presumably in birth order, it was recorded in Shenandoah County, Virginia, Will Book B, page 409. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sparky Wride Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 1:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is!                           Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733.  They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses.  Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756.  The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s.  All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War.  Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate.  (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene.  Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest.  Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel.  Why?  For various reasons.  John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own.  His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s.  If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller.  The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife.  Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above.  I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I find this discussion of Elder John Garber interesting especially since the Spring issue of BRETHREN ROOTS is featuring an article on Elder Garber. The article was submitted by Emmert F. Bittinger and perhaps will shed some new light on this family. Bonita Rogers --- [email protected] wrote: From: "Dwayne Wrightsman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:56:22 -0400 Ellen, after spending much of the day yesterday mulling it over, I simply don't have enough evidence to go forward with the idea that Elder John Garber Sr. of PA, MD, and VA was married prior to his marriage to Barbara Miller. For three years I have been looking for the John Gerber/Garber who was married to Anna Kauffman (daughter of Henry Kauffman of Manheim Township, Lancaster County). Based on thinking about it yesterday and last night, I don't believe that the Elder John Garber who was married to Barbara Miller had a previous marriage with Anna Kauffman. I'm sorry for stirring up the pot. Incidentally, for those who are interested in the 1787 will of Elder John Garber, in which he names his ten children, presumably in birth order, it was recorded in Shenandoah County, Virginia, Will Book B, page 409. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sparky Wride Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 1:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is!                           Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733.  They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses.  Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756.  The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s.  All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War.  Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate.  (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene.  Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest.  Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel.  Why?  For various reasons.  John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own.  His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s.  If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller.  The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife.  Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above.  I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

Ellen, after spending much of the day yesterday mulling it over, I simply don't have enough evidence to go forward with the idea that Elder John Garber Sr. of PA, MD, and VA was married prior to his marriage to Barbara Miller. For three years I have been looking for the John Gerber/Garber who was married to Anna Kauffman (daughter of Henry Kauffman of Manheim Township, Lancaster County). Based on thinking about it yesterday and last night, I don't believe that the Elder John Garber who was married to Barbara Miller had a previous marriage with Anna Kauffman. I'm sorry for stirring up the pot. Incidentally, for those who are interested in the 1787 will of Elder John Garber, in which he names his ten children, presumably in birth order, it was recorded in Shenandoah County, Virginia, Will Book B, page 409. Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sparky Wride Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 1:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is!                           Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733.  They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses.  Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756.  The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s.  All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War.  Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate.  (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene.  Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest.  Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel.  Why?  For various reasons.  John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own.  His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s.  If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller.  The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife.  Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above.  I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman

On 3/22/2011 5:16 PM, Dwayne Wrightsman wrote: > No, Merle, your information cannot be considered correct unless you can > document it. Maybe you could tell us more about your "information" and how > it is documented. My information is from two documented articles that > appeared in the April 2010 and January 2011 issues of MENNONITE FAMILY > HISTORY. Both articles cover various New River Brethren families before and > after their settlement in Wilkes/Ashe County, NC, 1787-1790. John Garber, > Jr., was a minister at the Forks of the Yadkin and the New River Brethren > congregations in North Carolina many years prior to his ministerial duties > at the Obannon and Donnels Creek churches in Ohio. He came to Ohio, via > Kentucky, with the Custers, Kesslers, and other North Carolina Brethren. > > Dwayne Wrightsman > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > From Merle C Rummel: > > In checking on the John Garber/wife Barbara Zook - I found some > information that suggested that he is NOT the son of Elder John Garber, > but the son of Elder John's brother, Samuel Garber/wife Catherine Diehl you can't imagine how I've been going through my source materials - since I wrote that - This Samuel Garber was the one who went on to eastern Tennessee - which would put his children down that way. John Garber/Barbara Zook had a sons named Samuel and John - (and Daniel, Jacob, Abraham and Joseph - but none named Henry - for Barbara's father). And yes, I'm well aware of all these families - many of them came on to the Obannon Church. In fact, I am a Custer descendant - through the Kerns (Salisbury NC.to the Hinkston Creek Church to Obannon). and John Custer died over on Duck Creek, just east of Sharonville and Montgomery OH. His wife died at Goshen - at the Obannon Church, and is buried in the Myers Cemetery just west of Goshen - but that doesn't document my statement. John Garber's grandson, Samuel Custer, in his little family history, wrote that his grandfather was a believer in Eternal Restoration (Universalism) - which was the Revival Center where they lived (Paul Custer/Mary Garber) - just west of here at Dublin IN. Samuel said that they had lived near Lexington KY - which could mean the Hinkston Creek Church. I think it was in this mess of informations, that I got the other parentage - but I haven't found it so far. I had originally written John Garber as son of Elder Johannes Garber (along with Joseph Garber) - then I penciled that out -but didn't write my source on that paper (that's the one I've found so far - ) This statement was in the Garber family information I sent to you in the Frontier Brethren book. Merle

No, Merle, your information cannot be considered correct unless you can document it. Maybe you could tell us more about your "information" and how it is documented. My information is from two documented articles that appeared in the April 2010 and January 2011 issues of MENNONITE FAMILY HISTORY. Both articles cover various New River Brethren families before and after their settlement in Wilkes/Ashe County, NC, 1787-1790. John Garber, Jr., was a minister at the Forks of the Yadkin and the New River Brethren congregations in North Carolina many years prior to his ministerial duties at the Obannon and Donnels Creek churches in Ohio. He came to Ohio, via Kentucky, with the Custers, Kesslers, and other North Carolina Brethren. Dwayne Wrightsman ----------------------------------------------- >From Merle C Rummel: In checking on the John Garber/wife Barbara Zook - I found some information that suggested that he is NOT the son of Elder John Garber, but the son of Elder John's brother, Samuel Garber/wife Catherine Diehl This was in connection to the ministry here at the Obannon Church, near Goshen in Clermont Co, Southern Ohio - where John Garber is listed as the first minister at the formation of the church, about 1795. Joseph Garber/wife Catherine Leedy served as a later minister - being earlier at the Ten Mile Creek Church down near New Richmond OH. Joseph Garber is a son of Elder John Garber - and the information was that they were NOT brothers. This suggests that there is a mistake in the identification of John Garber, son of Elder John Garber. John Garber became the Founding Elder of the Donnelscreek Church, since he had to move north following the Virginia Bounty Lands Survey in 1802 - as did all who had established homes in the area. This John Garber is given the birth date of 17 Jan 1758 in York Co PA, death14 Nov 1819, Champaign Co OH. Barbara Zook seems to have moved back down to the Obannon Church - dying 10 Sep 1830 at Goshen OH. Is my information correct? Merle C Rummel ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 3/22/2011 3:11 PM, Teri Pettit wrote: > Dwayne, > > Your logic about the birth order of the sons is very sound, enough so that I am going to revise the estimated birthdates for Martin and John Jr. in my database, citing your logic. (John Garber Jr. is my 5G grandfather, through his daughter Magdalena who married Daniel Frantz 1763-1843.) > > > ________________________________________ > [[email protected]] > Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller > > I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. > He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to > have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the > early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of > their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born > circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been > born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of > these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as > Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the > executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in > North Carolina when his father died.) > > > > The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with > John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, > Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, > these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the > oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the > oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the > first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His > brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in > order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were > the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. > > In checking on the John Garber/wife Barbara Zook - I found some information that suggested that he is NOT the son of Elder John Garber, but the son of Elder John's brother, Samuel Garber/wife Catherine Diehl This was in connection to the ministry here at the Obannon Church, near Goshen in Clermont Co, Southern Ohio - where John Garber is listed as the first minister at the formation of the church, about 1795. Joseph Garber/wife Catherine Leedy served as a later minister - being earlier at the Ten Mile Creek Church down near New Richmond OH. Joseph Garber is a son of Elder John Garber - and the information was that they were NOT brothers. This suggests that there is a mistake in the identification of John Garber, son of Elder John Garber. John Garber became the Founding Elder of the Donnelscreek Church, since he had to move north following the Virginia Bounty Lands Survey in 1802 - as did all who had established homes in the area. This John Garber is given the birth date of 17 Jan 1758 in York Co PA, death14 Nov 1819, Champaign Co OH. Barbara Zook seems to have moved back down to the Obannon Church - dying 10 Sep 1830 at Goshen OH. Is my information correct? Merle C Rummel

Dwyane: John Jr. was fined more than his brothers Martin and Samuel, but less than his father John. Not sure what that means, but it could imply he was older. Bill Thomas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Teri, Yes, I do have a related reason, which has to do with the age differences between the children. What follows is the list of the children in the order as their names were listed in the 1787 will, with specific dates of birth (which many compilers seem to agree upon) added after each name: (1) John Garber Jr. (2) Samuel Garber (3) Martin Garber (4) Anna Garber (5) Abraham Garber - 10 Nov. 1760 (6) Jacob Garber - 31 Dec. 1766 (7) Daniel - ?1769? (8) Catherine - 15 March 1771 (9) Joseph - 10 Aug. 1773 (10) Magdalene - 14 June 1774 Except for Daniel, the dates of birth are consistent with the order of the listing in the will. If the list in the will was truly in birth order it would mean that the first four children were born prior to 1760 (which fits John, Samuel, and Martin having to pay fines for non-enrollment in April 1776). My guess as to why the gaps between Abraham and Jacob have been filled in by compilers is to make for a good fit between births, but, as we know, that is not genealogy. The gaps between each of the first five births cannot be validated without birthdates for the first four children. The gaps between the last five births are quite normal. But the gap between Abraham and Jacob is six years, which is a fairly wide gap given what we know about the births of the younger children. Ergo, I suspect that a first wife died sometime after 1760 and that Elder John Garber Sr. married Barbara Miller sometime between 1760 and 1766. Also, we don't know when Barbara Miller was born. 1733 is just guesswork. She may have been born even later (or earlier and gone on strike between the first five births and the last five) Dwayne Wrightsman -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Teri Pettit Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 3:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, Your logic about the birth order of the sons is very sound, enough so that I am going to revise the estimated birthdates for Martin and John Jr. in my database, citing your logic. (John Garber Jr. is my 5G grandfather, through his daughter Magdalena who married Daniel Frantz 1763-1843.) Do you have other reasons besides the age difference between John Sr. and Barbara for suspecting that she was not his first wife? Even if they were married as early as 1750, a marriage between a 33 year old man and a 17 year old woman does not seem at all unusual for the time to me. My genealogy database contains over 320 couples (out of a total of about 24,000) where the bride's age at the time of marriage was 17 or under and the age difference between the spouses was 12 or more years. (The most extreme two such were a marriage between a 55 year old groom and a 14 year old bride, and one between a 63 year old groom and a 16 year old bride.) Admittedly, in both those extreme cases, it was a third marriage for the husband. However, 139 of them fit the search terms that they were first marriages for both parties, the groom was under 40, and the age difference was at least 15 years. So while it is certainly possible that his marriage to Barbara Miller was not the first marriage for John Garber Sr., it doesn't seem like their ages alone are enough to suggest so. ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 7:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman

I think there are a LOT us waiting to exhale. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sparky Wride Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is! Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dwayne, Your logic about the birth order of the sons is very sound, enough so that I am going to revise the estimated birthdates for Martin and John Jr. in my database, citing your logic. (John Garber Jr. is my 5G grandfather, through his daughter Magdalena who married Daniel Frantz 1763-1843.) Do you have other reasons besides the age difference between John Sr. and Barbara for suspecting that she was not his first wife? Even if they were married as early as 1750, a marriage between a 33 year old man and a 17 year old woman does not seem at all unusual for the time to me. My genealogy database contains over 320 couples (out of a total of about 24,000) where the bride's age at the time of marriage was 17 or under and the age difference between the spouses was 12 or more years. (The most extreme two such were a marriage between a 55 year old groom and a 14 year old bride, and one between a 63 year old groom and a 16 year old bride.) Admittedly, in both those extreme cases, it was a third marriage for the husband. However, 139 of them fit the search terms that they were first marriages for both parties, the groom was under 40, and the age difference was at least 15 years. So while it is certainly possible that his marriage to Barbara Miller was not the first marriage for John Garber Sr., it doesn't seem like their ages alone are enough to suggest so. ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwayne Wrightsman [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 7:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN ------------------------ Support Our Sponsoring Agency The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected] ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733. They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses. Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756. The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s. All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War. Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate. (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene. Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest. Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel. Why? For various reasons. John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own. His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s. If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller. The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife. Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above. I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman

Dwayne, I am keenly interested in who your candidate is!                           Ellen --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dwayne Wrightsman <[email protected]> Subject: [BRE] Elder John Garber Sr. and wife Barbara Miller To: [email protected]com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:49 AM I am having some problems comprehending the family of Elder John Garber Sr. He is said to have been born circa 1717, and his wife Barbara Miller said to have been born circa 1733.  They are said to have been married in the early1750s, 1752 and 1754 being the most tossed around guesses.  Lists of their children usually start with son Samuel, who is said to have been born circa 1756.  The other older sons were John Garber Jr., thought to have been born in the late 1750s, and Martin Garber, in the early 1760s.  All three of these older sons, along with their father, were fined in April 1776 as Non-Enrollers during the Revolutionary War.  Samuel and Martin were the executors of their father's will and estate.  (John Garber Jr. was living in North Carolina when his father died.) The 1787 will of Elder John Gerber Sr. lists the order of the children with John Jr. first, Samuel second, Martin third, then Anna, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Catherine, Joseph, and Magdalene.  Usually, although not always, these lists are in order of birth, suggesting that John Garber Jr. was the oldest.  Tradition aside, I still have to believe that John Jr. was the oldest, not Samuel.  Why?  For various reasons.  John Garber Jr. was the first to spin off from his father's family and start one of his own.  His brother, Martin Garber, was probably born no later than the late 1750s in order to have been fined as a Non-Enroller is April 1776, but if Samuel were the oldest, that would make little room for John Jr's birth year. My research on the life of John Garber Jr. suggests that he was the oldest, born no later than the early 1750s.  If so, it brings into question whether or not he was born of Barbara Miller.  The 16-years-age-difference between John Garber Sr. and Barbara Miller suggests that Barbara Miller may have been a second wife rather than his first and only wife.  Not only that, since there is no marriage record, they may have married even later than 1752 since she would have been only age 19 at the time. Since there are readers on this list who know more than I about the family of John Garber Sr., I would be interested in your take on the issues raised above.  I have a candidate for wife number one in mind. Dwayne Wrightsman                                ------------------------ Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN                                ------------------------                         Support Our Sponsoring Agency             The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG) For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:[email protected]                                ------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You just never know with RootsWeb mailing lists. For that matter I cannot figure why Rootsweb always adds an extra carriage return between paragraphs on my e-mails. This morning I got several e-mails from folks stating that they could not use the link that came across on the mailing lists. Apparently Rootsweb.Com truncated (shortened) the URL for both links and thus access to the pages will take slightly longer. For the Offering itself visit http://offering.brethrenarchives.com <http://offering.brethrenarchives.com/> and in the left-hand column click on the phrase "2011" just under the word "Offerings." The last item in the list is Offering #107. Please note that there is a new item on the front page as well. And I forgot to mention one other thing last evening in regard to the Offering site. In the left-hand column is the phrase, "The Primitive Christian." Click on it and a new page will open with just one link, 1876. Click on it and another new page will open with page numbers. This is issue No. 1 (16 pages) of the German Baptist Brethren newspaper, The Primitive Christian. For registered users to the site you will gain access to the entirety of issues, No. 1, 2, 3 and 4. For the Montgomery County, Ohio Digital Archives site please visit http://montgomery.brethrenarchives.com <http://montgomery.brethrenarchives.com/> and just below the phrase "Latest Releases" is a button labeled, "READ MORE." Click on it and it will open a new page with the release itself which contains an explanation and links to the various record sets. A brief note about the search engine on the Montgomery county site is in order. For some reason only registered users gain access to the full search results. Let us say that your ancestor is mentioned on page 14 of the 1827 tax duplicate and you are not a registered user. If you do a search he, or she, will not appear in the results. But if you are a registered user then the results will show. I cannot explain it. Wayne Webb