To clear up this matter once and for all, the reference is on pg 16 of Hope Perry's book. He cites Charlotte County Court Order Package #10 (which is really Order Book #10), pg 111 of 1715, which refers to a Kindness Breedlove, deceased. Hope asks if this Kindness Breedlove was the wife of James Breedlove, Sr and mother of Kindness Breedlove who married William Stembridge or was she the grandmother (of whom?). Hope questions this because of the marriage date of 1785 (whose?) and this Kindness' death in 1715. This has to be a typo in Hope's part. 1st Charlotte County was not formed until 1764 so there are no Order Books before that date. 2ndly Order Book #10 for Charlotte County covers the years 1795-1796, so the date should have read 1795 and NOT 1715. On pg 17, 1st paragraph, Hope notes that the Kindness who was the widow of James Breedlove was deceased according to court records by 1795, so he had the right Kindness in mind, just copied the date wrong somehow. Hope this helps, Tom King _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

Dear Willette, YOUR: "I wondered about Hope P.'s mentioning of Charles's mother having the name of Kindness Breedlove(posted on the Virginia web pages)...since a sister of charles was named kindness, it is likely she was named after her mother..the birth dates given for Charles (i show 1685) would make it feasible James of (1655) was his Father. (the maiden name of the earlier Kindness was the question) willette" While I seem to recall a reference to a James Breedlove (b. 1665?) somewhere, I have not included him in my genealogy for the lack of any other evidence. I do believe Charles (wife Mary Parr) Breedlove had a sister named Kindness as implied by the William Trible will of 1764. Hope's reference to a Kindness dying in 1715 (p.16) is interesting at least, though some researchers doubt the date and/or the reference to Charlotte Co, VA, which was not a county in 1715. Since the evidence seems (to me) to support the Kindness Breedloves were in one descendant blood line, I think it is possible that there was a Kindness matriarch (d. 1715?) after whom all the rest were named in love and respect. I think this Kindness matriarch may have been the mother of Charles (wife Mary Parr) Breedlove. Simply don't know about the maiden name of the earliest Kindness. Bill

Dear Breedlove Researcher, Okay, so THAT is where all this talk of Kindness Breedlove dying in 1715 in Virginia came from! I remember now. Look, the trouble is, the reference can NOT be correct, because the area of the death given, was Charlotte Co., VA, and that area is in the MIDDLE of Virginia, and belonged to the Indians alone, until many years AFTER 1715. Now there WERE Breedloves in Charlotte Co., [including a Kindness Breedlove], much later on in the century. I forget now, just when that Kindness Breedlove died, but I'm guessing it was 1795, and someone made a typo when they wrote 1715. Let's be careful on jumping to conclusions without verifying the facts. Marilyn Owen

Dear Beedlove Reserchers, We all have to be very careful about perpetuating these unproved Breedlove myths, which have no basis in facts. They end up on Personal Web sites, or worse, in a printed family history. Once these "facts" are in place, other people read them and think they must be true. We cannot always find a vital record to prove our lines. But when an assertion is made that such in such is the name of someone's father, mother, sibling [whatever], there should be SOME REASON for asserting this--and that you read it on a web site or in an undocumented family history, is no reason at all. Lacking primary or secondary proof, when you say that someone died on or about a certain date & in a certain place, WHY do you believe this? From the available records at the time of the ancestor's life & death, list your reasons. Let's try to leave our children a true record of our family. Marilyn Owen

aloha ms.owen. i for one appreciate your cautions as a seasoned researcher. i do, truely. yet for some of us who are trying to pick up the pieces from earlier researchers who may have travelled similiar paths, may have presented half-truths, or later still questionabe,having been clarified or what, i do not think the rubber hammer is in keepingfor ANCESTORS. they evidently did their best at the time and presented for an on-going go at it. most of us were not handed a silver platter (full plate) unless ROYAL lines were the case where it wasnecessary to maintain these records (pedigree lines) we still may not be able in another 20 years to give our children completely documented proff this is your god's truth pedigree. could't you give us "E" for effort? i know my children would and be greatful i even had the interest and took the time "for" them. i, for one feel i am far from giving my info to a web page of my family, i consider it a work - in - progress., as many others would agree of their own. one consideration regarding people who do put a closing to their work(though questionable, even to them, involves age, energy, illness,etc.) at least it shows they contributed with great interest and dedication..i can say i can appreciate. look how long it took civilization to come about...you'r always going to find people differ,do not all "think" alike. it's human nature. the computers do not give answers, they store information so you don't have to keep a database in your head. my thoughts are, to get the right answers, you have to ask the right questions. the old saying two heads are better than one applys here.working together of what has been proved,trying to fill in the gaps, and hoping you will have cooperation and interest even from your own family, one person cannot possibly do it all.,considering the luxury of "having a life"willette

aloha tom king. the reference i was making to bill can be found on the sister web site (mailing list )..resources.Personal web sites at roots web-breedlove..under "History og the Breedlove Family" and i quote "charles' mothers' name was Kindness Breedlove and died in 1715 in virginia (although this is unconfirmed) end of quote. willette.

aloha amy tate. are you from this lineage? willette

aloha dot avery. sorry it took time to reply to you. i have many from alabama who were from the benjamin breedlove/mary watkins descendancy. if you will email me or send your email address, we can determine which branch your people may be from . willette

-----Original Message----- From: Willette Smith <willette@bigisland.com> To: breedlove-lrootsweb.com <breedlove-lrootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 11:43 AM Subject: "your john watkins breedlove" aloha dot avery. sorry it took time to reply to you. i have many from alabama who were from the benjamin breedlove/mary watkins descendancy. if you will email me or send your email address, we can determine which branch your people may be from . willette

Bill Breedlove You made my day!!! I wondered about Hope P.'s mentioning of Charles's mother having the name of Kindness Breedlove(posted on the Virginia web pages)...since a sister of charles was named kindness, it is likely she was named after her mother..the birth dates given for Charles (i show 1685) would make it feasible James of (1655) was his Father. (the maiden name of the earlier Kindness was the question) willette

Well, well, well. The recent exchanges on our forum seem to exhibit our corporate frustration with the paucity of source records to prove the early Virginia Breedloves. I think that if I dug through my earliest personal files I could come up with a Breedlove coat of arms along with some worthless list of Breedloves that told me next to nothing. At the time I think I paid about $25 for that service. The lesson I learned was that my own meager attempts at genealogy were worth more than what I received for my $25. This experience simply taught me to be responsible for my own research. Since I joined this Breedlove-L forum, I have come to appreciate the real experts in Breedlove genealogy --- the many of you who continue to search for proof, those who challenge the status quo, and those who just happen to have the source information I need. Thanks to you all! Tom, Marilyn, and others have expressed my sentiments well. While I have the greatest respect for the LDS Family History Library, Hope Perry Breedlove's book, and the conventional genealogies expressed ( I continue to use these sources regularly), for my own direct line I feel that I have to rely on my own interpretation of circumstantial and skimpy evidence --- where there is no absolute proof. For example, I consider my direct relationship back to Charles and Sally Fletcher Breedlove is proven. But their ancestrial line back to Charles and Mary Parr Breedlove cannot be proved by any of us as far as I am aware. Assuming this is so, I have undertaken personal studies, arguments if you will, to account for the James Breedloves, the Kindness Breedloves, and the Spencer Breedloves to support the blood line that makes the most sense to me. So, my blood line for the early Virginia Breedloves may differ from some conventional genealogies, but I will be responsible for it and pass this version to my children until some one of you posts some new information that I can embrace. I will keep watching with great anticipation for that new insight or r evelation. Bill Breedlove

aloha marilyn owen. thank you for giving me a line on you experiences. i asked specific questions that i thought you could help me with. i do need advice from time to time. .however my understanding of this forum when someone asks for help if someone can then a reply is made..you have already made your feelings clear for anyone approaching a study differently you don't need to get you dander up. willette.

-----Original Message----- From: Willette Smith <willette@bigisland.com> To: breedlove-l@eootsweb.com <breedlove-l@eootsweb.com> Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 2:20 AM Subject: thomas breedlove 1730 aloha marilyn owen. in your 10/02/00 msg. you stated charles breedlove had a son thomas breedlove 1730 who had a son cornelius. are you referring to charles breedlove 1685 wife mart parr? because i list 7 children for them and show no thomas breedlove as a child of this charles. perhaps this is where some of the confusion has come from. what documentation do you have that charles/parr had a son thomas? in '"the earlier breedloves" i mentioned Thomas Breedlove 1690 ans Cornelius Breedlove 1692..i recall this was the trouble i was having trying to place these lineages in the SLC files. they had everyone, in one accounting, under charles/parr..even though the b. dates,etc. did not match. i suspected that Thomas Breedlove 1690 (though a generation seemed to be missing) had your Thomas Breedlove of 1730. .it would follow that since repeatedly these familys carried the forebarers name. same with Cornelius. though it was hard to locate children for any of them except for the crypt code assigned to a certain lineage. i will review my files and see what i came up with for these records at SLC. this was one of the reasons i listed my submission as "the SEQUENCE" i worked with. willette

Hello Listers, Just wondering if anyone had ever come across any info. suggesting which line Owen Breedlove would have tied into? According to info. sent to me by a cousin, Owen was born in 1778 in Essex Co. VA and died after 1857. He married Anna McDonald b. 1795 in TN d. after 1870. Other than some names of children, this is all I have. Does anyone have parent's names for Owen? Thanks for your help! Lisa Sigmon Russell Co. VA researching: Whited/Whitehead/Breedlove/Sigmon/Martin/Winters/Oakes/Oaks/Hicks/Hix/ Balew/Dalton/Mayle and others

Willette, Benjamin Breedlove and Martha Watkins, through John Watkins Breedlove. Tom Breedlove ---------- From: Willette Smith Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 3:03 PM To: BREEDLOVE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [BREEDLOVE-L] breedlove genealogy reply to thomas breedlove..thanks for your AMEN opinion. what lineage are you from? willette

On 2 Oct 2000, Tom King said: <snip> Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I would not use someone elses' opinion of our Breedlove origins as fact without a lot of research on my own, and I would hope that others would do the same. Don't accept everything or anything that Hope Perry Breedlove wrote or that anyone else wrote as true without some research to verify what they have said. <snip> Based on my own experience, including errors found, I can only say AMEN. Tom Breedlove

Tom King wrote: <There has not been one single piece of evidence ever found that Charles Breedlove was born in Virginia, OR ANYWHERE ELSE! He does suddenly appear, out of thin air, in 1708 in Essex County, Virgnia, as a witness, but there is no way any good genealogist would accept that as proof that either of his parents were ever in Virginia. > I agree. In fact, I have always "assumed" that Charles was NOT born in this country, but was the first of his name in America. There has been some speculation that he anglicized a German surname to make his name "Breedlove", and that he is not English at all. As we know, Charles married Mary, a daughter of Philip Parr, who was of the Planter Class in Virginia, so Charles was not without some status to be able to make such a good marriage. We have better proof that Mary Parr was born in Virginia, however, as was likely her mother, Judith Allaman. Mary was mentioned 1696 Middlesex, VA Deed of her grandfather, Thomas Allaman, when Mary must have been only an infant. Mary, of course, is also mentioned in the 1701 Essex Co., VA will of her father, Phillip Parr. Marilyn Owen

On Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:32:21 Willette Smith wrote: >.... however i stand by my findings. because, the road has not been opened >yet to declare charles breedlove/mary parr-did not come out of thin air. he >was born in va. in 1685. this implys his parents were there!!! etc. someone >somewhere knows of this. i am still doing my own research on this. sorry if >some do expect to find full documentation in my submission. it was designed >to touch base with people of this lineage and those working with it. everyone >has their own opinions. thank you for yours. There has not been one single piece of evidence ever found that Charles Breedlove was born in Virginia, OR ANYWHERE ELSE! He does suddenly appear, out of thin air, in 1708 in Essex County, Virgnia, as a witness, but there is no way any good genealogist would accept that as proof that either of his parents were ever in Virginia. On the other hand, there have been many submittals to the LDS, World Family Tree, World Connect Project, etc, that have given Virginia as Charles Breedlove's place of birth, but there is not a single submitter that can offer any evidence to support that supposition. I know, as I have sent emails or letters to more than 50 of these and received replies ranging from my brother's aunt said so or they got it from the Ancestral File or some such other non reliable source. Not a single one was able to come up with any written record of that time period that would give any clue as to where Charles Breedlove was born. Perhaps Gerry Hill can shed some light on her submittals to Ancestral File if she is still a member of this list. While I am raining on Willette's parade I better drizzle a little on the rest of the Watkins parade. Have been doing the same investigation of the Catherine Digges-William Herndon line and still have not found any proof that Catherine was the daughter of Edward Digges. Most of the 20 or so repliies I've received have given no better than Ancestral File or World Family Tree as proof. A few have ventured that the Herndon Family of America or the Herndon Family of the American Revolution books provided the proof. But, as a few of them have noted, these books also say that their is no conclusive evidence that Catherine Digges is the daughter of Governor Edward Digges and wife Elizabeth Page. Has anyone done any digging in Kent Parish registers to find baptismal records for this Catherine? Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I would not use someone elses' opinion of our Breedlove origins as fact without a lot of research on my own, and I would hope that others would do the same. Don't accept everything or anything that Hope Perry Breedlove wrote or that anyone else wrote as true without some research to verify what they have said. And never quote me!!! I make mistakes too, and my memory seems to be slipping at times. With not too much effort I've found errors in the best of genealogies, from Gary Boyd Roberts down to John Vincent Boddie, whose Virginia families are well mangled with skipped generations or meshed families of two people by the same name. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!! Use what others have written only as a guide to your own research and make your own conclusions based on all of the evidence that is available to you. Don't let one piece of primary evidence lead you astray, as even primary evidence can be greatly full or errors. My own son's birth certificate has at least 5 major errors in it. I gave the information to the nurse who just wrote it down all wrong. Better get off my soapbox. Tom King Get your FREE Email and Voicemail at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com

-----Original Message----- From: Willette Smith <willette@bigisland.com> To: breedlove-l@rootsweb.com <breedlove-l@rootsweb.com> Date: Monday, October 02, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: charles breedlove thank you marilyn owen for your reply. most info i received of the history behind immigration to america stated that for those earlier ones(pre revolution) originated from virginia. to settle thereafter in other states. i have not found a ships list for this. understand that most of these records were kept in england. the earlier arrivals , it was stated were from england..to virginia. some had been given land there , others took passage free in exchange of services. others, from various other european areas came later. the date jamestown was established is helpful. it was also suggested tracing the path of your ancestors from one state to another in conjunction with dates of what was happening then provides not only a story but setting them in context of history. when i began my search it was from my own family and the state they were born in. i went to the state archives for more, sent me tips, thus this led to virginia..for this surname.. i also checked the state of s.c. and ga. each went back to virginia..so it seems all roads lead to virginia. however, i have found that many records had been been destroyed not only for certain years. which makes many sources incomplete. i have also been told that BOOKS by family's are not considered THE reality of it. thus leaves us in a quandry between a rock and a hard place if so many records were destroyed. willette

thank you marilyn owen for your reply. most info i received of the history behind immigration to america stated that for those earlier ones(pre revolution) originated from virginia. to settle thereafter in other states. i have not found a ships list for this. understand that most of these records were kept in england. the earlier arrivals , it was stated were from england..to virginia. some had been given land there , others took passage free in exchange of services. others, from various other european areas came later. the date jamestown was established is helpful. it was also suggested tracing the path of your ancestors from one state to another in conjunction with dates of what was happening then provides not only a story but setting them in context of history. when i began my search it was from my own family and the state they were born in. i went to the state archives for more, sent me tips, thus this led to virginia..for this surname.. i also checked the state of s.c. and ga. each went back to virginia..so it seems all roads lead to virginia. however, i have found that many records had been been destroyed not only for certain years. which makes many sources incomplete. i have also been told that BOOKS by family's are not considered THE reality of it. thus leaves us in a quandry between a rock and a hard place if so many records were destroyed. willette