In a message dated 7/21/2004 1:03:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, j.w.bray@worldnet.att.net writes: Carol, In response to your several messages about the veracity of and reliability of sources of information for early Bray history. There are generally several types of sources from which we draw our information about our line of Brays: Primary sources - These are original documents such as wills, land records, legal proceedings, ships' manifests, etc. Secondary sources - Books, journals, newsletters, etc. that cite primary sources. Other sources - Family bibles, letters, and family oral histories. These are often very unreliable particularly the oral histories. "Bray Nostalgia" is not a book but a newsletter that circulated a number of years ago and relied mainly, from the issues I've read, on secondary and other sources. It was well written and well received. One of the main problems of our current genealogical research is a heavy reliance on the internet as a source of family history information. Very few researchers, myself included, do not have the time, money, or other resources to do research in primary sources. To travel to distant cities/countries and spend hours, days, and months poking through archives searching for needles in village hay stacks. Well said I think. I tend not to trust much in the way of Internet Info anyway. I have proof back to Henry M Bray. Beyond that may take DNA data. I hold the 110 years old data to be suspect, and think some one left a generation out, or just grabed the wrong Henry Bray. However, the early use of the name Henry and Edward together seems to shorten a long list of likely Henry Brays. Iam

Hi, The short answer of dying at 110 must be for Henry Bray of Chatham. I don't think they have the right Henry Bray. Or they left out a generation. Several Bray families in Virginia real early, could Chatham Henry Bray be of the Virginia Brays? Iam

I agree, you are the first one I have talked to who says that. I have checked and checked records back here, and all I come up with is the same thing. Mel Ellis St. Louis, MO Thanks for the input.

Yes, I am well acquainted with the family members you named as they are in my line. I also come the James Bray line. Did you know that Ann Welch was a spunky girl when she was young. British officer stole her horse, and she went to General Cornwallis and requested it back and he was so impressed with her, he gave it to her. What is exact? I tried sending this reply direct with no luck. I will send you a tree of what I have found. My ancestor who came to Southeast Missouri prior to the civil war was James Earl Bray. There is quite a story about him. Let me know if you get this. Mel Ells St. Louis, MO

Jim, Thank you so much for the "tutorial" on genealogical sources. This was certainly a good review for all of us. I agree that the internet has made us a little "lazy" in our research, and I am one of those people. Before I had a computer, I would spend hours at the library, the archives and the Family History Centers. That was when I got the best and most "accurate" sources. Now, I see so many "cousins" putting out information that we want to believe is a primary source when actually it is only a secondary source. We tend to play "leap frog" over the real documented facts because its too difficult to research the "real" ones. But, on the other hand, some of us are "stuck" and won't budge an inch to move forward. I hate to see our Brays give up "the ghost" (no pun intended) just because we can't get to a certain source. Would it be possible for some of the very experienced people (such as you) to throw out some questions to the Bray group so that some of us can look for the answers and report back to this site? I think if we really want to make some headway into finding our Brays in Europe, we need to forge ahead and not give up. Teamwork is the way to do it. For example, how about a "roll call" with everyone's name and how they are related to the Chatham family group. Also, if we could just put a brief address (city,county,state) we could see who is closest to which source. For example, I have a National Archives very close to where I live in SoCA, but I can't get to a cemetery in Chatham Co. Does any of this make sense? Let's "rally up the bandwagon" and try to get some feedback! Anybody up for suggestions? So much for my rantings. Carol

Carol, In response to your several messages about the veracity of and reliability of sources of information for early Bray history. There are generally several types of sources from which we draw our information about our line of Brays: Primary sources - These are original documents such as wills, land records, legal proceedings, ships' manifests, etc. Secondary sources - Books, journals, newsletters, etc. that cite primary sources. Other sources - Family bibles, letters, and family oral histories. These are often very unreliable particularly the oral histories. "Bray Nostalgia" is not a book but a newsletter that circulated a number of years ago and relied mainly, from the issues I've read, on secondary and other sources. It was well written and well received. One of the main problems of our current genealogical research is a heavy reliance on the internet as a source of family history information. Very few researchers, myself included, do not have the time, money, or other resources to do research in primary sources. To travel to distant cities/countries and spend hours, days, and months poking through archives searching for needles in village hay stacks. A number of years ago, I took a careful look at a secondary source of ships passengers sailing from England to the American colonies. I was interested in seeking information about Henry Brays heading for Virginia or Maryland during the period 1650 to 1700. Here is what I found in P.W. Coldham's "Complete Book of Emigrants", Genealogy Publishing, Baltimore, MD, 1990: 25 June 1677, Henry Bray, passenger aboard the ship "Increase", London for New England. 20 August 1684, Henry Bray, passenger aboard the ship "Hound", London for Maryland. 30 September 1684, Henry Bray, passenger aboard the ship "Love", London for Maryland. 26 September 1685, Henry Bray, passenger aboard the ship "Love", London for Maryland. 9 July 1685, Henry Bray, passenger aboard the ship "Hinde", London for Virginia. There are several issues with the above information: 1. Did Mr. Coldham get his information from a primary source - the ship's manifest of cargo and passengers? 2. Can we safely say that any of these Henry Brays are the ancestor of our Henry Bray who died in Chatham CO, NC, circa 1794? Where is the source of information that clearly identifies his father's given name? We do not know when he was born or where he was born; there is no primary source or secondary source of information that indicates his ancestry. None. 3. There were other Henry Brays in the colonies prior to 1677: 10 October 1652, Bray, Henry, Lancaster Co., VA Indentured servant to Elias Edmund(?) From "Abstract of VA Land Patents and Grants 1623-1666". Well, I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that there are few documents that help us to identify our Bray ancestry. As far as I know, there is a bill of sale for some cows sold by a Henry Bray in Frederick County, MD in 1752 where the signature of this Henry Bray is similar to the signature on the will of Henry Bray, died circa 1794 in Chatham County, MD. (We have Jacquie Hoggard to thank for her research to uncover this valuable piece of information.) There is a land deed signed by a Henry Bray for some property secured in Orange County, NC in the early 1760s. The surveyors were: Henry Bray and Edward Bray. This property remained in the family when Chatham County was formed from Orange County. And, maybe the site of the Bray Family Cemetery near Siler City, NC which contains the headstone of Henry Bray, d. circa 1812, son of Henry Bray, d. Chatham County, NC circa 1794. Jim -----Original Message----- From: CABWEBB@aol.com [mailto:CABWEBB@aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 9:13 PM To: BRAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [BRAY-L] Check out lostdove lostdove Here's a lot of information from the "Bray Nostalgia" book. I can't believe that all of this would not be hard to confirm using documents like census, etc. ==== BRAY Mailing List ==== ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: BRAY/PARKS/TOMPKINS Classification: Obituary Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/5gF.2ACIB/1258 Message Board Post: I am in no way related to Evelyn Bray or anyone in her obituary. This obituary was posted at the "Tompkins" surname message board. EVELYN BRAY was the widow of CHARLES DORING BRAY. Please see abstract at the "Tompkins" surname message board. Surnames: BRAY/PARKS/TOMPKINS

It doesn't matter what one can proove or what is logical once a genealogical book is written it becomes the truth for example many continue to attribute Edward Bray that married Sarah Maynard to Henry Bray that died in 1790. this despite the fact that Henry mentions a Edward in his will in 1790 ( or 1793) and fact is Edward died in 1760 (why would he be mentioned in Henrys will if already dead ) Patricia Caviness Perkins ----- Original Message ----- From: <CABWEBB@aol.com> To: <BRAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:12 AM Subject: [BRAY-L] Check out lostdove > lostdove > Here's a lot of information from the "Bray Nostalgia" book. I can't believe > that all of this would not be hard to confirm using documents like census, etc. > > > ==== BRAY Mailing List ==== > > > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

My point is your records are wrong Patricia Caviness Perkins ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rvlatn23@aol.com> To: <BRAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:01 PM Subject: [BRAY-L] Bray > I know it is unbelievable but the records I have show him dying at 110 > > > ==== BRAY Mailing List ==== > Help keep free Genealogy on the Internet.. > Join Rootsweb Genealogical Data Cooperative > http://www.rootsweb.com > > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

I know it is unbelievable but the records I have show him dying at 110

lostdove Here's a lot of information from the "Bray Nostalgia" book. I can't believe that all of this would not be hard to confirm using documents like census, etc.

You seem to have more than a few loose ends that need tied down . even written word is worthless without documentation , simply because someone has written it down in a book does not make it so . I don't think that there is even any proof that Mary widow of Henry was a Wilson , I am sure Henry did not live to be 110 Patricia Caviness Perkins

Jim, These are the "loose ends" that need to be reconfirmed. The information about Henry Bray of London, born in England and married to Elizabeth Tompson on 9 Apr. 1668, was from Pat Welch of Brandon, MS. She cites "Bray Nostalgia" Feb. 1987, pg.3 as the source. The information about Henry Bray (2nd) was that he was born on 22 July 1683 at St.Sepulchre, London, England ,came from Marjorie Rommel, Exeter, CA who cites "Bray Nostalgia", June 1987, pgs. 9,11. What she said was that this Henry came to America in 1700 and died on 11 Feb. 1794. He would have been 110 years old, and this is where some of the "controversy" lies. This Henry was supposed to have married Mary Wilson at NC and it was mentioned that "perhaps" he was born in NC instead of England???She goes on to cite the Chatham Co. NC Will Book C, pg. 6, but I have not read it. The information about Henry Bray (3rd) was that he was born in Orange Co. NC in 1741 and that he was the son of Henry Bray (came to America in 1700) and Mary Wilson.He married Sarah (Sally)Yokley circa 1760 in NC. The order of his children was based on his will. He appeared in the census of 1790 at Chatham Co. NC. pg.183.He appeared on the census of 1800 at Chatham Co. NC pg. 204.He was a planter.He died in Jan. 1812 at Chatham Co. and left a will in Book A, pg. 198. Marjorie Rommel (see above) cites a 1891 letter of Mahala Brown, recorded in the "Bray Nostalgia" June 1986, pg. 6. She also says that he was a "DAR Patriot" and cites "Bray Nostalgia" Oct. 1985, pgs. 6-7.Pat Welch was also "cited" as a resource and was connected with "Bray Nostalgia" Oct. 1987, pg. 33.( The latter must be some of the above information that was handed down from her.) I don't know if I've answered your question about citing documents that take the Brays over to England. But, I have cited some "land" sources which can probably be traced. I would love to get my hands on the "Bray Nostalgia" books However, I do not have these. Can you "confirm" any of the above sources? I would love to get the Brays closer to the "water" and find some sailing vessel records. This kind of information is what we need to work on as a team. Please advise....... Sincerely, Carol Brisson (a Bray "cousin")

Carol, I am citing this passage in your message: "Richard's son was Henry Bray m. Elizabeth Tomson on 9 April 1668 in London, England.Henry had a son named Henry Bray m. Mary Wilson. Henry (Jr.) was born at St. Sepuchre, London, England on 22 July 1683. He died on 11 Feb. 1794 in Chatham Co. NC. Henry (Jr.) had a son named Henry Bray who was born in 1741 in Orange Co. NC and married to a Sally Yokley." There are, as far as I know, no documents to support the above information. None. If there are, I would love to see them. Where are they? Who did the research? I have personally handled the papers of Henry Bray, d. circa 1794 in Chatham County, NC. This was at the Raleigh State Library in Raleigh, NC. I never saw any connection between this Henry Bray with any records in Great Britain. I, and many other Bray researchers, would love to know the source of the above information. Regards, Jim Jim Bray j.w.bray@att.net -----Original Message----- From: CABWEBB@aol.com [mailto:CABWEBB@aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:41 PM To: BRAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BRAY-L] Chatham Co Bray family Mel, Thanks for offering your help with my Chatham County Brays. According to Dr. Michael S. Cole from AR (24 June 2000), I can trace my roots all the way back to Richard Bray m. Mary ?? from England (early 1600's). He would have been my 8th GG on my maternal side. Richard's son was Henry Bray m. Elizabeth Tomson on 9 April 1668 in London, England.Henry had a son named Henry Bray m. Mary Wilson. Henry (Jr.) was born at St. Sepuchre, London, England on 22 July 1683. He died on 11 Feb. 1794 in Chatham Co. NC. Henry (Jr.) had a son named Henry Bray who was born in 1741 in Orange Co. NC and married to a Sally Yokley. They had a son named Edward Bray m. Nancy Dowdy and he was born in Orange Co. NC in the early 1760's. Edward had a son named Richard m. Mary ?? who was born on 28 Aug. 1777 in Chatham Co. NC. Richard and Mary had a son named Thomas Bray who married a Jane Aileen (Jennie) Welch. Thomas was born in KY between 1811 and 1812.(I have some census records for the family living in Macon Co. TN in 1850 and a marraige record from Monroe Co. KY circa 1831.) My great-grandfather was Edward Gamaliel Bray who was born in Macon Co. TN on 19 Jan. 1840. (My mother had him born in Monroe Co. KY which I believe is incorrect). Edward G. Bray's wife was Elizabeth Richards from Ralls Co. MO. They were married in St. Louis, MO and took a train to CA on the night of their wedding. They settled in Winters, Yolo Co. CA and had 5 children, the eldest being my grandfather, John Briggs Bray, born in Winters CA on 13 Dec. 1871. He married Nettie Celinda Hubbard, also from Yolo Co. , and had one child...my mother, Marjorie Elizabeth Bray b. 13 March 1911 in New Westminster, BC, Canada. I am her eldest daughter, Carol Webb, and my father was William E. Webb from Long Beach, CA. My mother and father are both deceased. My question is this....do you know why Richard Bray moved to Monroe Co. KY and to Macon Co. TN from NC? Was it because of a religious dispute? I would like to know more about the Bray family and the Welch family in Chatham Co. between the years 1800 and 1850. There has been much "speculation" as to the migration of Richard Bray and to his marriages to a Mary ?? and an Anna ??. I have some records of him on deeds from Surry Co. NC, Barren Co. KY and census records from Monroe Co. KY. Was his son Thomas the son of Mary?? and Richard, and if so, how do I find Mary's maiden name? What information do you have and do you know of any other Bray descendents who can verify more dates and places for these people? Also, do you know how I can get a copy of the book "Bray Nostalgia"? The following people have done research on the Brays of Chatham Co. Do you have any contact with any of these people? Dr. Michael S. Cole from Fort Smith, AR (I have an address for him); Pat Welch from Brandon, MS; Marjorie Rommel from Exeter, CA; Sandra Stutters from Pueblo, CO (Harlan family history connected with Dowdy and Bray families); Pat Mabry from Belleville, IL. I would like to get together with all the family descendents and start a "chat line" so that we can put all the pieces together. Any suggestions? Thanks to all in advance and hoping to hear from you soon. Sincerely, Carol A. Brisson Los Alamitos, CA ==== BRAY Mailing List ==== ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Mel, Thanks for offering your help with my Chatham County Brays. According to Dr. Michael S. Cole from AR (24 June 2000), I can trace my roots all the way back to Richard Bray m. Mary ?? from England (early 1600's). He would have been my 8th GG on my maternal side. Richard's son was Henry Bray m. Elizabeth Tomson on 9 April 1668 in London, England.Henry had a son named Henry Bray m. Mary Wilson. Henry (Jr.) was born at St. Sepuchre, London, England on 22 July 1683. He died on 11 Feb. 1794 in Chatham Co. NC. Henry (Jr.) had a son named Henry Bray who was born in 1741 in Orange Co. NC and married to a Sally Yokley. They had a son named Edward Bray m. Nancy Dowdy and he was born in Orange Co. NC in the early 1760's. Edward had a son named Richard m. Mary ?? who was born on 28 Aug. 1777 in Chatham Co. NC. Richard and Mary had a son named Thomas Bray who married a Jane Aileen (Jennie) Welch. Thomas was born in KY between 1811 and 1812.(I have some census records for the family living in Macon Co. TN in 1850 and a marraige record from Monroe Co. KY circa 1831.) My great-grandfather was Edward Gamaliel Bray who was born in Macon Co. TN on 19 Jan. 1840. (My mother had him born in Monroe Co. KY which I believe is incorrect). Edward G. Bray's wife was Elizabeth Richards from Ralls Co. MO. They were married in St. Louis, MO and took a train to CA on the night of their wedding. They settled in Winters, Yolo Co. CA and had 5 children, the eldest being my grandfather, John Briggs Bray, born in Winters CA on 13 Dec. 1871. He married Nettie Celinda Hubbard, also from Yolo Co. , and had one child...my mother, Marjorie Elizabeth Bray b. 13 March 1911 in New Westminster, BC, Canada. I am her eldest daughter, Carol Webb, and my father was William E. Webb from Long Beach, CA. My mother and father are both deceased. My question is this....do you know why Richard Bray moved to Monroe Co. KY and to Macon Co. TN from NC? Was it because of a religious dispute? I would like to know more about the Bray family and the Welch family in Chatham Co. between the years 1800 and 1850. There has been much "speculation" as to the migration of Richard Bray and to his marriages to a Mary ?? and an Anna ??. I have some records of him on deeds from Surry Co. NC, Barren Co. KY and census records from Monroe Co. KY. Was his son Thomas the son of Mary?? and Richard, and if so, how do I find Mary's maiden name? What information do you have and do you know of any other Bray descendents who can verify more dates and places for these people? Also, do you know how I can get a copy of the book "Bray Nostalgia"? The following people have done research on the Brays of Chatham Co. Do you have any contact with any of these people? Dr. Michael S. Cole from Fort Smith, AR (I have an address for him); Pat Welch from Brandon, MS; Marjorie Rommel from Exeter, CA; Sandra Stutters from Pueblo, CO (Harlan family history connected with Dowdy and Bray families); Pat Mabry from Belleville, IL. I would like to get together with all the family descendents and start a "chat line" so that we can put all the pieces together. Any suggestions? Thanks to all in advance and hoping to hear from you soon. Sincerely, Carol A. Brisson Los Alamitos, CA

I am a direct descendant of Chatham County Brays is there anything I can help you with. I am glad to swap information Mel Ellis

I am a direct descendant of the Chatham County Brays How may I help you Mel Ellis

I am a direct descendant of the Chatham County Brays How may I help you Mel Ellis

Attention Dprsns827@aol.com, Having read your mail on BRAY-L I am including CHAPMAN/BRAY connections as placed on CHAPMAN-L by me. Do we have a connection? Lex Campbell. From: "kcam7375@bigpond.net,au" <kcam7375@bigpond.net.au> To: <CHAPMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [CHAPMAN-L] Chapman family in Co. Cork. - ILLINOIS connection Date: Friday, July 16, 2004 5:46 PM Greetings from Sydney, Australia, As you did not address you mail to a particular person or give the family name I assume you are refering to my Co Cork, Ireland Chapmans. The details are as follows, William Chapman, Sexton of Cloyne Cathedral, Co. Cork, married Mary Nason there on 25-4-1799. Their 10 children were,(My G G G Grandfather. SARAH 1-4-1800 WILIAM 12-7-1809 (my G G Grandfather) MARGARET 14-9-1811 MARY 26-11-1813 EDWARD 2-1-1815 HENRY 2-3-1817 MICHAEL 13-5-1822 (Came to Australia and became Mayor of Sydney 1871/72 and also a member of the NSW Parliament). PHILLIP 3-11-1824 PATRICK March 1827 On 2-4-1834, William (11, my G G F), a Warder in Spike Island Prison in Cobh (Queenstown) Co. Cork, married Mary Meaney or Reaney. They had 5 children as follows, MARGARET 31-3-1835 (My G Grandmother), THOMAS JOHN 27-8-1837 (Came to Australia ) MATILDA 29-?-1841 MARY JANE/ANNE 7-9-1844 ELIZABETH 26-12-1846 ELIZA 0-5-1850 (came to Oz with broyher THOMAS) On 15-8-1857 NARGARET CHAPMAN married JOSEH BRAY, a Sapper with the Royal Engineers on Spike Island. There children were, William Joseph 7-8-1858, MARY JANE 25-1-1852 Unfortunately, mothger Margaret died a few days after the birth leaving an awkward situation for the child or children, and I am told Joseph Bray was sent to Canada and deserted there as a Corporal in August 1863. I don't know of any other family movements, but William Joseph Bray was brought to Oz when young, obviously by the Chapman family and became William Joseph Chapman, (my Grandfather). He left a very interesting history from then on which I wont go into now. He married and died in the name of Chapmasn, having 3 families and fathering 0 children that I know of. Another interesytimg point ia a William Chapman of Spike Island married Anne Testro on 2-9-1858. Question! Did the wife of William (11) die and he remarried or was he a diferent William Chapman. Both he and Anne Tesyro were witnesses to the narriage of Joseph Bray and Margaret Chapman. I will leave you all to digest this and hope someone can connect. Cheers, Lex Cmpbell/ ----- Original Message ----- From: <SellanaBelle@aol.com> To: <CHAPMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:41 AM Subject: Re: [CHAPMAN-L] Chapman family in Co. Cork. - ILLINOIS connection > Do you know the names of any of your Grandfather/GGrandfathers brothers or > sisters? Thanks! > > > ==== CHAPMAN Mailing List ==== > Chain letters, 'virus warnings' and the like should not be posted > to the list. Send them to the list owner first for verification of validity. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > ==== CHAPMAN Mailing List ==== Chain letters, 'virus warnings' and the like should not be posted to the list. Send them to the list owner first for verification of validity. ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Hello Lex: Sorry, no, we probably have no connections through the Chapman/Bray families. My Chapmans originated in Davidstow, Cornwall, England. The earliest records I have are from around 1685. They lived in the North Cornwall region from that time until they came to the US in the 1800s. Regards, Doris Doris Parsons Miller On Line Parish Clerk, Tintagel, Cornwall Researching:Parsons, Bray, Derricott, Chilcott, Treleven, Coumbe, Lobb, Chapman and Draper Reading, PA USA