I think we've all been hoping for more digitized documents online, but yes, it's a concern that many records may end up being commercialized. I never contributed to Family Treemaker's constant requests for family trees because I could see this happening and then my data would be copyrighted by them. I'm always willing to exchange information with others, but I do not like the idea of "giving" my data only to find it being sold to people. This is a big problem in the "Information Age." I worked in the space program and we often discussed this some years back....that eventually "information" would come with a fee. And, it has. Having worked for the government, I've seen how many things have been "contracted out." It used to be that when one party was in office, more tasks were contracted out, and when the opposing party elected, work was brought back inhouse. Now, "contracting out" or "outsourcing" is the norm no matter. Having also worked with govt contracts, I can tell you that outsourcing is not always cheaper. The company the work is outsourced to must now make a profit whereas the work done inhouse was not profit based. One can make the argument that employee costs are less but that was not what I saw. So, it was upsetting to me when NARA contracted out services. Price for copies went up a lot. We, the taxpayers, paid for all these records to begin with so it's always been my opinion that they should be available to the taxpayers. LDS has a great deal of microfilm and with people volunteering, it should be available on their site and not on a "pay for view" site. I'm sure it is costly to maintain the computer system to house the data. Computer programmers are not cheap. I felt "renting" films from LDS was reasonably priced for people who were not near enough to use NARA, branches, or other genealogical libraries. So, it is with hope that they will make it reasonably priced and on their site. If not, I would suggest complaining to them. I was a volunteer at a FHC for about a year, and most volunteers there were not of the Mormon faith either. Where there was no other library available, they made records available to people at a reasonable cost. I was also fortunate enough to live in the Houston area where Clayton Library is a wonderful public genealogical library. Their friends group numbers 1,000 and contributes a large amount of money regularly to the purchase of microfilm, books, and other media and many members volunteer at the library because there is never enough money in budgets to staff it. I think if we want to see America's records remain available to us, we must be vigilant and tell our Congressmen/women we believe these records need to remain owned by the people and not given to private companies to sell to us. Personally, I think some of our tax money should go toward digitizing and placing records on government websites. We seem to have money to throw away on many other things, like the 2-lane road they are enlarging to 5 lanes near me that's in the middle of nowhere and hardly used as it is. My motto is "complain, complain, complain." The squeaky wheel does get oiled. And, thanks Peggy for the inside scoop. I've pasted 2 websites below you all might want to check out. Donna Press releases.....LDS gave 1860 census images to Footnote + other releases. http://www.footnote.com/page/120/footnote-press-room/ Here is the site for Eastman's Gen. newsletter which talks about the LDS project...with comments from others....from last year: http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2007/05/familysearch_to.html -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [BOWER] NARA agreements with subscription services Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:50:22 -0400 From: Peggy K. Reeves <peg@reevesweb.com> Reply-To: bower@rootsweb.com To: bower@rootsweb.com References: <mailman.26341.1215628009.9525.bower@rootsweb.com> I agree with the messages posted below, but I'll add to it, probably more than you want to know... There is one message after another on the lists where the LDS are asking for volunteers to do indexing, etc... to help get things online. What they aren't telling you (but I will), is that your good-natured and well-intentioned volunteer work is going to be handed to the subscription services and sold back to you and me and everyone else. This is how ancestry started. As more records were scanned, the prices went way up, until the average person can't afford it any more. NOW there are many new subscription services and genealogical products for sale. These various subscription services were started and are owned by members of the LDS church. Literally EVERY genealogy software program is also owned by the LDS church. Here's how it works: the subscription services (such as Footnote.com) enter into contracts with NARA and other record repositories. (by the way, NARA posts proposed contracts online at their website for public view). These subscription services also have "agreements" with the LDS familysearch.org people. What it boils down to is that the business (which cannot be owned outright by the church or they would lose their tax-exempt status) enters into the contract with NARA or whoever, but they don't hire a full staff to go in there and do the work. The LDS church recruits volunteers to do scanning and indexing, etc... so that Footnote can add it to their collection and sell it back to the rest of us at tremendous profit. Those who volunteer for LDS indexing projects are working for the subscription services for free, most of the time without even knowing it. How do I know this? I am a paid researcher in Washington D.C. I work side-by-side with these people in the research rooms at NARA...at least I used to. Now NARA has given the LDS volunteers their own room to do what they want (so that people like me can't blow the whistle on what they're doing), even without NARA employee supervision. You can walk by their room and look in the window and see them handling old records, in there without any NARA employees (now that I have said this, they will probably start covering the window). The rest of us are watched constantly in the research rooms, and have to sign our files out one at a time, and have many other tedious rules for sign-in and sign-out that we must follow that the LDS "volunteers" do not have to follow. They can have a cart of pension files in front of them, but I am only allowed to order 4 in each "pull", and even then I have to sign them in and out at the desk one at a time. The big scanning project that footnote is currently working on has to do with the Civil War widow's pension files. They are starting with the first group of them. The volunteers doing it were wearing familysearch.org nametags when they first started, at least until some of us "regulars" noticed and starting making some noise about it. But if you think you're going to see pension file images for free at their site, OH, no way! We are all going to have to pay bigtime when Footnote starts adding those online. The price is going to skyrocket for that subscription, just like ancestry. You might get the index for free, but you will pay for the images--AND, just try and print a readable copy of an image on footnote. Good luck! It doesn't allow you to print a normal full-sized page because they have to have their banner and logo and footer cluttering the page, often making the images too small to read. I am not against making things available online, but here's the rub... Whenever a record group gets microfilmed or scanned at NARA, NARA takes the originals out of circulation and no one gets to request the original documents any more. That is NARA's rule. That means we are doomed to the poor-quality scans, omissions, and goofed-up indexes made by people who aren't necessarily familiar with reading old handwriting. What they are really doing is making a number of records disappear from our view forever! The technology certainly exists to do high-quality color scanning, but that is not what the LDS volunteers and footnote are doing. Thus, many of the yellowed or brown or blue paper in the old files becomes barely readable when scanned--even though the original might be perfectly readable. There is a press release about the "partnership" with NARA at the fammilysearch.org website. In it, they make many claims that simply are not true, and I know this from firsthand experience at NARA. They even have the nerve to claim that people can't see a lot of NARA records even if they go there in person. This is preposterous--I go there in person all the time, and the NARA staff bring whatever records I request! (unless they are already microfilmed or scanned). Anyone can go to NARA and request to see the federal government records that are housed there (unless they are too recent and are still protected by privacy laws). The outright lying and deception that goes on in order for the subscription services to make money is really shameful, and not something that any church should be associated with. ALL OF US own the records of the federal government, and they should NOT be taken out of our view and held at ransom by the LDS church. Many courthouses already will not allow access to the originals once the LDS church has filmed them. They tell you to "order it from them". Postings where the LDS members are recruiting more volunteers should be considered deceptive advertising spam, because that's exactly what it is. Folks, if you want to do something for free, like free indexing or abstracting, or something like that--then please volunteer to do lookups and make copies in your area and exchange favors with others who are doing the same thing. Othewise, all of our history will eventually be OWNED by the Mormons. Need I remind you, this is the same group that will not EVER correct ANY mistake in their ancestral database, no matter how much hard evidence you have to show that they are wrong. If your ancestor got "sealed" to the wrong person--too bad! It's staying there for eternity. Peggy Reeves > My local genealogy librarian mentioned that a lot of databases and > images have been uploaded to the LDS Family History site recently. It > appears more will be added and this is a trial. They also need > volunteers to index. Look in the upper right corner for the red square > where it says "Go" and click there. This is something we've all been > hoping for since Ancestry has taken over so much which is now fee-based > and especially since it's costing more in gas to get to genealogy > libraries and courthouses. > > http://www.familysearch.org/ > > > > Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:33:45 -0500 > From: "Leola Ripperger" <leeripp@iland.net> > Subject: Re: [BOWER] New data on LDS site > To: <bower@rootsweb.com>, <BOWER-L@rootsweb.com>, > <BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com>, <skipper@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <001501c8e1d9$71182620$0400000a@Leola> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Be very careful about taking that information as gospel as I have > already found an error in Abraham Bowers and apparently the link to > report the error or write them is not working as I couldn't get a > message to go thru. They show in the 1880 census that Abraham is the > son of Daniel and Sara J. Bowers, born in Mo. and died in KS. and > this is incorrect. Daniel is the son of an Abraham Bowers who was > born in Tenn. and died in Eureka Springs, Ark., and had a farm at > Proctor, Mo. Daniel was my husband's gr-grandfather and Abraham his > gr-gr-grandfather. > > The LDS has done a lot of wondrous things for genealogy, but they are > not known for accuracy or correcting errors when found. I know they > take what is submitted to them and if they get bad information there > isn't much that can be done I guess, but I would think their indexers > should be more careful in doing their job. If one volunteers for > something one should do the best they can to be sure it is accurate > when they submit it in my estimation, same with doing genealogy. A > gathering of names is not genealogy as many people think it is. One > should verify, verify and verify again, not just be a name collector! > > Thanks for letting me express my thoughts today on my little > bandwagon. > > Lee Ripp. > Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:57:35 -0500 > From: "D. Hinson" <dhinson@suddenlink.net> > Subject: Re: [BOWER] New data on LDS site > Cc: BOWER-L@rootsweb.com, skipper@rootsweb.com, BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4874FC0F.5070108@suddenlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It would definitely be nice if we could stick "post-it" notes to things > that we know are incorrect so it would be of help to others. I have a > marriage bond for my gggg-grandfather where my gggg-grandmother's name > is spelled Easton when it is really Eason. That incorrect spelling > stumped me for a long time since the surname Eason was so prevalent in > the area, but not Easton. A will finally proved it was Eason. > > On vital records, we cannot make changes and when I've asked some of the > counties on Genweb, I was also told they could not correct any > records. A lot of errors were made by not just people doing indexes, > such as on the census indexes (books) but also by the census takers > themselves. Many names were spelled incorrectly, even places of birth > were incorrect. I have seen pages and pages of MS census records where > a stamp was used for every line saying MS was place of birth! That was > one lazy census taker. > > On any genealogy data, people should obtain the records to verify the > data. Maybe newbies don't know this, but us oldies, who were > researching before the Internet and have seen what errors are on the > Internet and submitted to LDS, should know. > > On the latest info on the LDS site, I was able to print and save to my > hard drive the actual death certificates from some of my TX Bowers. So > you can go from the index of names to the actual certificate and see the > information. Just remember to try different spellings just as we always > have done. The death certificates were in .jpg format so you can save > in a file and use any photo software to view and print from your > computer. The digital copies for some census years, and also the 1850 > slave schedules, are available, although much of the census for all > decades are available through Heritage Quest from home via your library > in many cities. Ancestry is also available at many libraries. However, > I have never liked Ancestry's database search. If you want to narrow > your search, it's almost impossible. If I mark the surname for TN only, > I get names from other states with pages and pages to look through. > While I have found things on Ancestry, I know that their database search > could be better programmed. My work with programmers and databases > tells me that they want people to take longer to search....it makes them > more money for you to have to go through pages and pages of names even > after you tried filtering your search. > > So, I think the images of birth, marriage and death records, and census > records on LDS will be a big help. Errors on any index will always be a > problem. It was difficult to read the writing in many cases and some > microfilm is not that good either. So we have to keep that in mind. > And with all the digitized records becoming available to us, it should > become far easier to check out the family pedigrees submitted to LDS. I > might add, on the DAR site, there are some patriot lines "on hold" for > future applicants because original data is now in question. So, the > advice is.....check out the data and prove your line and note what you > have proved and what you haven't. > > I want to add another item my librarian pointed out. We live in an > electronic world, BUT, we have already seen that photos we scanned in > years ago are in formats unreadable by some current software. She > advised that you backup your hard drive files where you save the digital > copies but also print out a copy of things as well. She said some old > genealogy CD's can no longer be read and what we have now may not be > what's used in the future. Technology is changing fast and we have no > idea whether that CD you made of your family will be readable 20 years > from now nor do we know rate of deterioration either. Remember, paper > contains acid and if you plan to donate copies to libraries or give to > family, use acid-free paper. > > Lee, I think your topic was very important so I took the liberty to add > to it and hope it helps someone. If anyone can think of anything else, > please chime in. > > Donna ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1543 - Release Date: 7/9/2008 6:32 PM