Donna-Peggy: Thanks to you both for your wonderful input and yes, I too, have learned a lot of research from books and how to articles on the internet. Shows my age doesn't it. I agree the records should be made free to the taxpayers on a government website not sold to all the other companies. After all it is our tax dollars that created those records, but when does that count for anything anymore with either party. I am afraid future genealogists won't be able to get much information, paid or unpaid as they tighten up on all this stuff, and it is sad. Besides that I am glad I won't be around to research back into these present years with all the illigitmate children and half with no records of the fathers or several different fathers in the family, etc., it will be a nightmare. Unless the people of today make some kind of record and lots don't and won't, it will be next to impossible, and we think we have a hard time ha ha! Happy researching and hopefully newbies will learn from all your good information. And we "oldies" can be reminded of things we may have forgotten. Lee Ripp. ----- Original Message ----- From: <bowers-request@rootsweb.com> To: <bowers@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:01 AM Subject: BOWERS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 24 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [BOWER] BOWER Digest, Vol 3, Issue > 23]] > (D. Hinson) > 2. [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [BOWER] NARA agreements with > subscription > services]] (D. Hinson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:07:28 -0500 > From: "D. Hinson" <dhinson@suddenlink.net> > Subject: [BOWERS] [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [BOWER] BOWER Digest, > Vol 3, Issue > 23]] > To: BOWER-L@rootsweb.com, BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <48779350.9020500@suddenlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > Peggy is right. Before the BLM site was available, I > requested the > "whole file" from NARA. In fact, when requesting > anything, you should > always request "everything" in the file because you never > know what else > is there. I also have immigration papers...there too, > request the whole > file. Thanks for all your helpful information Peggy. > These are things > many of us have read over the years but may have forgotten > and also many > newbies can use this info. With the Internet today, many > aren't reading > some the books us oldies have...like North Carolina > Research by Helen > Leary and many other books...and there's not one single > book that covers > everything. Thanks! > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [BOWER] BOWER Digest, Vol 3, Issue 23 > Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:02:59 -0400 > From: Peggy K. Reeves <peg@reevesweb.com> > Reply-To: bower@rootsweb.com > To: bower@rootsweb.com > References: > <mailman.223.1214031701.27462.bower@rootsweb.com> > > > > Yes, this the Bureau of Land Management has a great > website, and there > is a lot that you can do with it. But don't think that > what you see > here is all that you get. > > The only thing that you can print from this site is the > actual patent > certificate. For each transaction listed at this site, > there will be a > file of paperwork at NARA in D.C. For transactions marked > "cash entry", > there won't be much more than the cash receipt showing how > much the > patentee paid for the land. But for other transactions > there will be > more information. If the transaction was given under the > "script > warrant act", that means it was probably bounty land from > an 1812 > soldier. There would be a bounty land file at NARA, and > soldiers' > records. If the transaction is marked "homestead", there > would be a > file of records that would include a questionnaire filled > out by the > homesteader, giving his age and details about his tract of > land--improvements that he had made such as buildings, > orchards, > livestock, etc... There would also be affidavits from > several of his > neighbors, answering the same questions and verifying the > truth of the > homesteader's statements. > > There are many, many, diverse records at NARA and other > places that are > not online and never will be, because the man hours and > equipment needed > to scan it and put it online would be prohibitive. > > When using this site, it is important to remember that > this does not > include all patentees from all states. This site only > lists the > ORIGINAL patentees who purchased their land through the > federal > government. If your ancestor went to Oklahoma or > somewhere else and > bought their land from somebody else, they will not be > listed at this > site. Also remember that spelling definitely DOES NOT > COUNT! Search > every weird spelling of the name, because the same person > could have > more than one land transaction with the name spelled > different ways. > That is very common at this site. > > Another thing you can do with this site is set it on the > other search > tab (the one that does not come up as the default). With > that, you can > put in the coordinates of a piece of land and get a list > of names of the > other original patentees in that same township. Often > there are > relatives on adjoining tracts. > > Happy hunting! > > Peggy Reeves > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: BOWER Digest, Vol 3, Issue 23 > From: bower-request@rootsweb.com > To: bower@rootsweb.com > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:01:41 AM >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Bureau of Land Mgmt records (D. Hinson) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:35:44 -0500 >> From: "D. Hinson" <dhinson@suddenlink.net> >> Subject: [BOWER] Bureau of Land Mgmt records >> To: BOWER-L@rootsweb.com, BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com, >> skipper@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <485BC040.5050006@suddenlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; >> format=flowed >> >> This is a fantastic site if you have never used it. A >> reminder that >> records may have been added to the the BLM site since we >> all last looked >> at it. For those who aren't familiar with it, you can >> print out the >> records of govt lands sold/transferred to individuals. >> Government land >> did not include the original 13 colonies. You can do a >> search of all >> states or just by a single state. >> >> Click on Search Database at the top of the main page. >> You can order >> certified copies if you like but for genealogy, it's not >> really >> necessary. You should be able to print out the records >> very clearly on >> your printer at home. >> >> Donna H. >> >> http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ >> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1543 - Release > Date: 7/9/2008 6:32 PM > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:45:21 -0500 > From: "D. Hinson" <dhinson@suddenlink.net> > Subject: [BOWERS] [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [BOWER] NARA agreements > with > subscription services]] > To: BOWER-L@rootsweb.com, BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <48780CB1.3080802@suddenlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > I think we've all been hoping for more digitized documents > online, but > yes, it's a concern that many records may end up being > commercialized. > I never contributed to Family Treemaker's constant > requests for family > trees because I could see this happening and then my data > would be > copyrighted by them. I'm always willing to exchange > information with > others, but I do not like the idea of "giving" my data > only to find it > being sold to people. This is a big problem in the > "Information Age." > I worked in the space program and we often discussed this > some years > back....that eventually "information" would come with a > fee. And, it has. > > Having worked for the government, I've seen how many > things have been > "contracted out." It used to be that when one party was > in office, more > tasks were contracted out, and when the opposing party > elected, work was > brought back inhouse. Now, "contracting out" or > "outsourcing" is the > norm no matter. Having also worked with govt contracts, I > can tell you > that outsourcing is not always cheaper. The company the > work is > outsourced to must now make a profit whereas the work done > inhouse was > not profit based. One can make the argument that employee > costs are > less but that was not what I saw. So, it was upsetting to > me when NARA > contracted out services. Price for copies went up a lot. > We, the > taxpayers, paid for all these records to begin with so > it's always been > my opinion that they should be available to the taxpayers. > > LDS has a great deal of microfilm and with people > volunteering, it > should be available on their site and not on a "pay for > view" site. I'm > sure it is costly to maintain the computer system to house > the data. > Computer programmers are not cheap. I felt "renting" > films from LDS was > reasonably priced for people who were not near enough to > use NARA, > branches, or other genealogical libraries. So, it is with > hope that > they will make it reasonably priced and on their site. If > not, I would > suggest complaining to them. I was a volunteer at a FHC > for about a > year, and most volunteers there were not of the Mormon > faith either. > Where there was no other library available, they made > records available > to people at a reasonable cost. I was also fortunate > enough to live in > the Houston area where Clayton Library is a wonderful > public > genealogical library. Their friends group numbers 1,000 > and contributes > a large amount of money regularly to the purchase of > microfilm, books, > and other media and many members volunteer at the library > because there > is never enough money in budgets to staff it. > > I think if we want to see America's records remain > available to us, we > must be vigilant and tell our Congressmen/women we believe > these records > need to remain owned by the people and not given to > private companies to > sell to us. Personally, I think some of our tax money > should go toward > digitizing and placing records on government websites. We > seem to have > money to throw away on many other things, like the 2-lane > road they are > enlarging to 5 lanes near me that's in the middle of > nowhere and hardly > used as it is. My motto is "complain, complain, > complain." The squeaky > wheel does get oiled. > > And, thanks Peggy for the inside scoop. I've pasted 2 > websites below > you all might want to check out. > > Donna > > > Press releases.....LDS gave 1860 census images to Footnote > + other releases. > http://www.footnote.com/page/120/footnote-press-room/ > > Here is the site for Eastman's Gen. newsletter which talks > about the LDS > project...with comments from others....from last year: > > http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2007/05/familysearch_to.html > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [BOWER] NARA agreements with subscription > services > Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:50:22 -0400 > From: Peggy K. Reeves <peg@reevesweb.com> > Reply-To: bower@rootsweb.com > To: bower@rootsweb.com > References: > <mailman.26341.1215628009.9525.bower@rootsweb.com> > > > > I agree with the messages posted below, but I'll add to > it, probably > more than you want to know... > > There is one message after another on the lists where the > LDS are asking > for volunteers to do indexing, etc... to help get things > online. What > they aren't telling you (but I will), is that your > good-natured and > well-intentioned volunteer work is going to be handed to > the > subscription services and sold back to you and me and > everyone else. > This is how ancestry started. As more records were > scanned, the prices > went way up, until the average person can't afford it any > more. NOW > there are many new subscription services and genealogical > products for > sale. These various subscription services were started > and are owned by > members of the LDS church. Literally EVERY genealogy > software program > is also owned by the LDS church. > > Here's how it works: the subscription services (such as > Footnote.com) > enter into contracts with NARA and other record > repositories. (by the > way, NARA posts proposed contracts online at their website > for public > view). These subscription services also have "agreements" > with the LDS > familysearch.org people. What it boils down to is that > the business > (which cannot be owned outright by the church or they > would lose their > tax-exempt status) enters into the contract with NARA or > whoever, but > they don't hire a full staff to go in there and do the > work. The LDS > church recruits volunteers to do scanning and indexing, > etc... so that > Footnote can add it to their collection and sell it back > to the rest of > us at tremendous profit. Those who volunteer for LDS > indexing projects > are working for the subscription services for free, most > of the time > without even knowing it. > > How do I know this? I am a paid researcher in Washington > D.C. I work > side-by-side with these people in the research rooms at > NARA...at least > I used to. Now NARA has given the LDS volunteers their > own room to do > what they want (so that people like me can't blow the > whistle on what > they're doing), even without NARA employee supervision. > You can walk by > their room and look in the window and see them handling > old records, in > there without any NARA employees (now that I have said > this, they will > probably start covering the window). The rest of us are > watched > constantly in the research rooms, and have to sign our > files out one at > a time, and have many other tedious rules for sign-in and > sign-out that > we must follow that the LDS "volunteers" do not have to > follow. They > can have a cart of pension files in front of them, but I > am only allowed > to order 4 in each "pull", and even then I have to sign > them in and out > at the desk one at a time. > > The big scanning project that footnote is currently > working on has to do > with the Civil War widow's pension files. They are > starting with the > first group of them. The volunteers doing it were wearing > familysearch.org nametags when they first started, at > least until some > of us "regulars" noticed and starting making some noise > about it. But > if you think you're going to see pension file images for > free at their > site, OH, no way! We are all going to have to pay bigtime > when Footnote > starts adding those online. The price is going to > skyrocket for that > subscription, just like ancestry. You might get the index > for free, but > you will pay for the images--AND, just try and print a > readable copy of > an image on footnote. Good luck! It doesn't allow you to > print a > normal full-sized page because they have to have their > banner and logo > and footer cluttering the page, often making the images > too small to read. > > I am not against making things available online, but > here's the rub... > Whenever a record group gets microfilmed or scanned at > NARA, NARA takes > the originals out of circulation and no one gets to > request the original > documents any more. That is NARA's rule. That means we > are doomed to > the poor-quality scans, omissions, and goofed-up indexes > made by people > who aren't necessarily familiar with reading old > handwriting. What they > are really doing is making a number of records disappear > from our view > forever! The technology certainly exists to do > high-quality color > scanning, but that is not what the LDS volunteers and > footnote are > doing. Thus, many of the yellowed or brown or blue paper > in the old > files becomes barely readable when scanned--even though > the original > might be perfectly readable. > > There is a press release about the "partnership" with NARA > at the > fammilysearch.org website. In it, they make many claims > that simply are > not true, and I know this from firsthand experience at > NARA. They even > have the nerve to claim that people can't see a lot of > NARA records even > if they go there in person. This is preposterous--I go > there in person > all the time, and the NARA staff bring whatever records I > request! > (unless they are already microfilmed or scanned). Anyone > can go to NARA > and request to see the federal government records that are > housed there > (unless they are too recent and are still protected by > privacy laws). > > The outright lying and deception that goes on in order for > the > subscription services to make money is really shameful, > and not > something that any church should be associated with. ALL > OF US own the > records of the federal government, and they should NOT be > taken out of > our view and held at ransom by the LDS church. Many > courthouses already > will not allow access to the originals once the LDS church > has filmed > them. They tell you to "order it from them". > > Postings where the LDS members are recruiting more > volunteers should be > considered deceptive advertising spam, because that's > exactly what it is. > > Folks, if you want to do something for free, like free > indexing or > abstracting, or something like that--then please volunteer > to do lookups > and make copies in your area and exchange favors with > others who are > doing the same thing. Othewise, all of our history will > eventually be > OWNED by the Mormons. Need I remind you, this is the same > group that > will not EVER correct ANY mistake in their ancestral > database, no matter > how much hard evidence you have to show that they are > wrong. If your > ancestor got "sealed" to the wrong person--too bad! It's > staying there > for eternity. > > Peggy Reeves >> My local genealogy librarian mentioned that a lot of >> databases and >> images have been uploaded to the LDS Family History site >> recently. It >> appears more will be added and this is a trial. They >> also need >> volunteers to index. Look in the upper right corner for >> the red square >> where it says "Go" and click there. This is something >> we've all been >> hoping for since Ancestry has taken over so much which is >> now fee-based >> and especially since it's costing more in gas to get to >> genealogy >> libraries and courthouses. >> >> http://www.familysearch.org/ >> >> >> >> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:33:45 -0500 >> From: "Leola Ripperger" <leeripp@iland.net> >> Subject: Re: [BOWER] New data on LDS site >> To: <bower@rootsweb.com>, <BOWER-L@rootsweb.com>, >> <BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com>, <skipper@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <001501c8e1d9$71182620$0400000a@Leola> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; >> charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Be very careful about taking that information as gospel >> as I have >> already found an error in Abraham Bowers and apparently >> the link to >> report the error or write them is not working as I >> couldn't get a >> message to go thru. They show in the 1880 census that >> Abraham is the >> son of Daniel and Sara J. Bowers, born in Mo. and died in >> KS. and >> this is incorrect. Daniel is the son of an Abraham >> Bowers who was >> born in Tenn. and died in Eureka Springs, Ark., and had a >> farm at >> Proctor, Mo. Daniel was my husband's gr-grandfather and >> Abraham his >> gr-gr-grandfather. >> >> The LDS has done a lot of wondrous things for genealogy, >> but they are >> not known for accuracy or correcting errors when found. >> I know they >> take what is submitted to them and if they get bad >> information there >> isn't much that can be done I guess, but I would think >> their indexers >> should be more careful in doing their job. If one >> volunteers for >> something one should do the best they can to be sure it >> is accurate >> when they submit it in my estimation, same with doing >> genealogy. A >> gathering of names is not genealogy as many people think >> it is. One >> should verify, verify and verify again, not just be a >> name collector! >> >> Thanks for letting me express my thoughts today on my >> little >> bandwagon. >> >> Lee Ripp. >> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:57:35 -0500 >> From: "D. Hinson" <dhinson@suddenlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [BOWER] New data on LDS site >> Cc: BOWER-L@rootsweb.com, skipper@rootsweb.com, >> BOWERS-L@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <4874FC0F.5070108@suddenlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; >> format=flowed >> >> It would definitely be nice if we could stick "post-it" >> notes to things >> that we know are incorrect so it would be of help to >> others. I have a >> marriage bond for my gggg-grandfather where my >> gggg-grandmother's name >> is spelled Easton when it is really Eason. That >> incorrect spelling >> stumped me for a long time since the surname Eason was so >> prevalent in >> the area, but not Easton. A will finally proved it was >> Eason. >> >> On vital records, we cannot make changes and when I've >> asked some of the >> counties on Genweb, I was also told they could not >> correct any >> records. A lot of errors were made by not just people >> doing indexes, >> such as on the census indexes (books) but also by the >> census takers >> themselves. Many names were spelled incorrectly, even >> places of birth >> were incorrect. I have seen pages and pages of MS census >> records where >> a stamp was used for every line saying MS was place of >> birth! That was >> one lazy census taker. >> >> On any genealogy data, people should obtain the records >> to verify the >> data. Maybe newbies don't know this, but us oldies, who >> were >> researching before the Internet and have seen what errors >> are on the >> Internet and submitted to LDS, should know. >> >> On the latest info on the LDS site, I was able to print >> and save to my >> hard drive the actual death certificates from some of my >> TX Bowers. So >> you can go from the index of names to the actual >> certificate and see the >> information. Just remember to try different spellings >> just as we always >> have done. The death certificates were in .jpg format so >> you can save >> in a file and use any photo software to view and print >> from your >> computer. The digital copies for some census years, and >> also the 1850 >> slave schedules, are available, although much of the >> census for all >> decades are available through Heritage Quest from home >> via your library >> in many cities. Ancestry is also available at many >> libraries. However, >> I have never liked Ancestry's database search. If you >> want to narrow >> your search, it's almost impossible. If I mark the >> surname for TN only, >> I get names from other states with pages and pages to >> look through. >> While I have found things on Ancestry, I know that their >> database search >> could be better programmed. My work with programmers and >> databases >> tells me that they want people to take longer to >> search....it makes them >> more money for you to have to go through pages and pages >> of names even >> after you tried filtering your search. >> >> So, I think the images of birth, marriage and death >> records, and census >> records on LDS will be a big help. Errors on any index >> will always be a >> problem. It was difficult to read the writing in many >> cases and some >> microfilm is not that good either. So we have to keep >> that in mind. >> And with all the digitized records becoming available to >> us, it should >> become far easier to check out the family pedigrees >> submitted to LDS. I >> might add, on the DAR site, there are some patriot lines >> "on hold" for >> future applicants because original data is now in >> question. So, the >> advice is.....check out the data and prove your line and >> note what you >> have proved and what you haven't. >> >> I want to add another item my librarian pointed out. We >> live in an >> electronic world, BUT, we have already seen that photos >> we scanned in >> years ago are in formats unreadable by some current >> software. She >> advised that you backup your hard drive files where you >> save the digital >> copies but also print out a copy of things as well. She >> said some old >> genealogy CD's can no longer be read and what we have now >> may not be >> what's used in the future. Technology is changing fast >> and we have no >> idea whether that CD you made of your family will be >> readable 20 years >> from now nor do we know rate of deterioration either. >> Remember, paper >> contains acid and if you plan to donate copies to >> libraries or give to >> family, use acid-free paper. >> >> Lee, I think your topic was very important so I took the >> liberty to add >> to it and hope it helps someone. If anyone can think of >> anything else, >> please chime in. >> >> Donna > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1543 - Release > Date: 7/9/2008 6:32 PM > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the BOWERS list administrator, send an email to > BOWERS-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the BOWERS mailing list, send an > email to BOWERS@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BOWERS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of BOWERS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 24 > ************************************* > >