Hi Margaret,you might be able to purchase a copy of" Rutherfurd's,Southern Counties Register and Directory" by contacting," Borders Regional Library,St Mary's Mill,Selkirk,TD7 3EU,BORDERS SCOTLAND.If it's no longer available I can do a look up for you,another great book is "Rulewater and it's People"by George Tancred of Weens,first published in 1907,of interest to anyone who wants to learn about the history and genealogy of the parishes of Rulewater,again contact the Borders Regional Library in Selkirk,it was reprinted in 1992.."The Parish Of Lilliesleaf"was published in 1913 so I doubt if you will find a copy but I will do a look up for any people or places you are interested in.I also have a copy of "Hawick in Bygone Days"by James Turnbull,written during 1921 his memory carried him back as far as 1850, fascinating for anyone interested in Hawick and it's many characters of the day,published 1927-,Amanda,Canada.---- Original Message ----- From: Margaret L Staton To: jpgeist Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Morebattle and Lilliesleaf Actually Amanda, both of those books sound so good, that I would like to own a copy. Do you know where I might send off and purchase them from? Meg Landseadel Staton ----- Original Message ----- From: jpgeist To: mstaton@mindspring.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:13 PM Subject: Morebattle and Lilliesleaf hi Margaret,to purchase a copy of Kalewater:A Miscellany,contact the Morebattle History Group,WELLGATE,MOREBATTLE,KELSO.BORDERS,SCOTLAND.TD5 8QN,I would recommend it to anyone with an interest in the Morebattle,Hounam and Linton area past and present. Have you read Rutherford's Southern Counties'Register and Directory? this was first published in 1866 and is packed with information and statistics on every parish in Selkirkshire,Berwickshire and Roxburghshire,it was reprinted in 1990,it makes for fascinating reading,if you don't have access to a copy I would be happy to do a search for your family members if you give me their details,I have found several of my ancestors mentioned in it.Another book which I have a copy of is "The Parish of Lilliesleaf" published in 1912,written by Rev.Arthur Pollock Sym,the Preface reads,"The following pages make no pretence to be more than a simple account of the parish which it has been my lot to serve in the ministry of the gospel for a quarter of a century.The are intended,in the first place,for the inhabitants of Lilliesleaf and for those who have gone out from it into the busier life of the world,and,in the next place,for those who have never dwelt there,but wonder what kind of parish it is which bears so sweet a name.Some of the tales of bygone days and old traditions of the district were told me in the earlier years of my ministry but men of intelligence like Willie Burn,the blacksmith,and John Carrie,the Millwright,and were written down at the time.It seemed a pity that they should be lost. If the simple annals be found interesting by those who know the parish, who live in it,and who love it,my labour in preparing the volume will be fully recompensed"Arthur Pollock Sym,The Manse,Lilliesleaf,October 1913.My connections to Lilliesleaf are the Hislop family of Raperlaw and Catshawhill,and the Crawford family of Lilliesleaf,if anyone else has a link to these families then I would love to hear from them,I have all the Census entries etc for these two families from 1841 through to 1891,good luck,Amanda Geist.

Hi Linda: Re: Where is Gala - Rox. or Selkirk... I refer you to Viv Dunstan's GENUKI page at: http://www.vivdunstan.clara.net/clara.net/v/i/v/vivdunstan/webspace/genuki/R OX/Melrose/ladhope.html in which it is recorded that: "LADHOPE, a quod sacra parish on the north-west border of Roxburghshire. It was constituted by the Court of Teinds in 1855. It comprises part of the post-town of Galashiels, and the north-western part of the quod civilia parish of Melrose." from the Imperial Gazetteer of Scotland, edited by John Marius Wilson, 1868. Note: Ladhope was transferred to Selkirkshire between 1871 and 1881. " Hope this helps as I wondered the same thing with my searching. Jim Arnott Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Lill" <lillfam@tpg.com.au> To: <BORDER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 6:29 PM Subject: young > Thanks to those that replied to my query. > > To Kay Liney yes that is my family in the 1881 census, that was where I got the approx. ages for the children. It says that Galashiels is in Roxburgh, is that right or is it Selkirkshire. > To Dominique Young I don't think its the same family. I've got George Young's parents as William and Martha Young nee Baxter married 1849 at Prestonpans. William being born in Haddington E. Lothin 1826 to Alexander and Marion Young nee Paterson married 1820 Saltoun E. Lothian. > To Terra, thanks your Youngs don't seem to be the right ones either. I'm sure that I've looked in the IGI in the FHC site without any luck, thanks anyway. > > Regards Linda > > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > >

Hi, I conduct a one name study, that's all families, all times, worldwide, of one surname. Re first name patterns It varies enough in England to be an utterly unreliable method of working out whom belongs to whom, I've not even tried to, but it is very common to find a surname used as a first name, often it was the mother's maiden name or a grandmothers maiden surname. Usually one son is named after the father, but not necesarily the first or the third son. It can be difficult to see a pattern when the first four generations all called their first sons the same name. The pattern doesn't say if the fifth son was named after anyone, down here often a name was used twice if the first child died they named another the same. Some distinctive names do run in families. Alice will appear from apparently nowhere and become favoured for two or three generations, or skip a generation. One of my own 19th c families nearly ran out of girls names after 8 on the trot, the first son and 9th child was named Jeremiah after his father..... he should by pattern have been a John. I often see a child named after an uncle too. Sorry, Lynn T and I'm not collecting for my one name study here I want to find my own ancestors!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Vivienne S Dunstan <viv.dunstan@one-name.org> To: <> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Naming Pattern > Dee Lerch <dlerch@uniserve.com> wrote: > >Naming Pattern popular between > >1700 and 1875 in UK as follows. > > > >- The first son was named after the father's father > >- The second son was named after the mother's father > >- The third son was named after the father > >- The fourth son was named after the father's eldest brother > >- The first daughter after the mother's mother > >- The second daughter after the father's mother > >- The third daughter after the mother > >- The fourth daughter after the mother's eldest sister > > Could you tell me the source for this please? In all my studies I've > never seen any indication of a popular UK-wide pattern in this period. > There is evidence from the past of a Scottish pattern, but there seems > less evidence of a single English pattern, let alone any overall UK one. > > There is a very common pattern that researchers see in lowland > Scottish families during the pre-1900 period, and that runs to > > 1st son after father's father > 2nd son after mother's father > 3rd son after father > 1st dau after mother's mother > 2nd dau after father's mother > 3rd dau after mother > > But there were enough variations in this pattern even in lowland > Scotland to caution people against relying upon it completely, and > to extend any "standard" pattern beyond the first 3 sons/daughters > is pushing any idea of "standardization" way too far IMHO. For a > detailed discussion of this see for example Gerald Hamilton-Edwards' > "In seach of Scottish ancestry" Chapter 5 (other Scottish genealogy > textbooks should also cover naming patterns to varying degrees). > > In my albeit more limited experience of English research I've found > it hard to detect evidence of any kind of pattern, though something > that I have seen (albeit more in southern England) is a fairly high > chance of a couple naming son 1 after the father (i.e. the child's > father) and daughter 1 after the mother. Beyond that any naming > seems to be very varied. This extends across England east-west. > Moving further north I've seen some cases of what looks at the > start like a Scottish pattern, but then it varies again: more > often than not drawing on biblical (non family) names for the > younger children. And back in Scotland (in the Borders) where > one parent is from England (I wish the census returns were more > precise on cross-Border birthplaces!) there seems less chance of > the Scottish pattern being upheld when it comes to naming children. > > Can other listers comment on any pattterns or otherwise on the > English side of the border, e.g. in the Northumberland/Cumberland > area? Was there something approaching a Scottish pattern, or was > the situation very different? Was there even a pattern at all? > Experiences from single families are interesting, but it can be > easier to look for overall patterns if you've examined many many > families in an area, e.g. perhaps as part of a local or community > history project. If anyone falls into this category and can comment > on the naming patterns I'd be delighted to hear from you. Ditto for > any written commentary on the subject (that can be substantiated). > > Many thanks! > > Viv Dunstan > Fife, Scotland (but originally from Roxburghshire) > http://www.vivdunstan.clara.net/ > > P.S. Apologies if the naming pattern given at the top comes from > a published book or likewise, but I suspect that it may be false > whatever. Even something in a published book can be incorrect :) > > > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > >

Hi Dee, >Actually I just read the article again and the naming pattern comes from the >book "In Search of your British and Irish Roots" by Angus Baxter. Hope this >helps. Yes I'm working through my email slowly here! I'm going to have to look at that. However do be careful to distinguish between England, Scotland and UK. In your original message you spoke of the pattern being used in the UK. The web page refers to England. You've spoken of the pattern being visible in your own Scottish research (I wouldn't question that: I see it in Scotland too). England, Scotland and UK are not synonymous terms, and to muddle them up can lead to confusion. Be careful in referring to exactly what you mean. This is especially important in Borders genealogical research, since Scottish records (and culture/history) can be so very different from those in England, or indeed anywhere else in the UK. Best wishes. Viv

This appeared on a gardening list I subscribe to, at the tail end of an off-topic thread on 'Scots' versus 'Scotch'. I thought it would both interest and amuse a few people on this list, so with the author's permission, I've attached his comments below: Karen in Cheshire UK **************** To add to the confusion (and hence the fun!), in the Gaelic-speaking areas of Donegal in western Ireland at about the turn of the last century when the ability to speak English was seen as a mark of being "worldly and sophisticated", an individual who had learned a bit of English (mainly from working as a casual agricultural labourer in southern Scotland) would proudly declare to anyone prepared to listen that he "had picked up the Scotch". Ron Payne/Raghnall de Paeghne St.John's, Newfoundland, Canada (The only city in North America that was ever predominantly Gaelic-speaking)

Hi Lesley, >Indeed, it's amazing that any church records survived! In addition, >anyone subscribing to one of the non-conformist denominations will >not appear as their records are in the NAS (formerly SRO) where >they survive. As far as I know, they're not yet indexed (when I went >to look for an ancestor, I was handed an old exercise book - the >original register!). Depending on when the family converted, it can Yup, they're largely not indexed, and many of the churches don't leave surviving registers for all their existence (especially into 18th century). Another category of people who can be frequently missed by Scottish parish registers are children who were illegitimate. In the early 19th century and earlier there's a good chance the local kirk session would have dragged in the mother for a quizzing, but any subsequent record (including of a baptism) would often go into the kirk session minutes (held at the NAS/SRO, if they survive) - not into the parish registers. >The Borders were a hot bed of dissent - the Minister for Whitsome >complained in his (1790s) Statistical Account entry that about a >third of the folk in his parish were Free Church members, and >there's no reason to think that Whitsome was better or worse than >any other parish I agree. Actually I have quite a few short quotes from ministers in the Statistical Account among my Scottish Border GENUKI parish pages. The Jedburgh one springs to mind at the moment, and checking the Eckford GENUKI page I see that the 18th century minister there was lamenting in the Statistical Account about the state of his parish's registers. For anyone who doesn't know about GENUKI it's at http://www.genuki.org.uk/ and is hierarchical e.g. follow the links through UK&Ireland, then Scotland, then Roxburghshire, then Eckford to reach the latter's parish page. GENUKI (started 1995) is an online UK and Ireland genealogical information service. Best wishes. Viv

Hi Dee, >The source is from an article at www.genealogy.com on the Importance of >Given Names. Here is the website address for the article >http://www.genealogy.com/genealogy/35_donna.html Yes, and it cites as its source Angus Baxter's "In Search of Your British and Irish Roots". I think it's that last one I'd take big issue with :) I'll have to try to look at the book, to see what the exact wording says, but again for all the reasons I've outlined I'm very wary of its veracity. >I've been noticing this very pattern in most of my family since I started >researching in Scotland, but I never said that it was a die hard rule only a >popular naming pattern. You don't want to give it too much credence as the >article says. Yup - as goes for any pattern that appears to be the case! I think the difficulty with citing patterns in any context is that people then assume that their ancestors would have followed them (if only because it then makes subsequent research easier). Whether a pattern is right or wrong this can be misleading, but there doesn't seem to be too much we can do about it. Best wishes. Viv

> Yes - remember that the parish registers do not cover every birth. Your > Mungo may have been born in Roxburghshire (or somewhere else nearby) but > his birth not recorded in surviving records. It's probably not an appealing > thought because it does raise the possibility of family lines being very > difficult (if not impossible) to trace, but it seems to have affected a > fairly hefty proportion of births in southern Scotland in that period. > Indeed, it's amazing that any church records survived! In addition, anyone subscribing to one of the non-conformist denominations will not appear as their records are in the NAS (formerly SRO) where they survive. As far as I know, they're not yet indexed (when I went to look for an ancestor, I was handed an old exercise book - the original register!). Depending on when the family converted, it can mean that half the kids turn up in the OPR, and the other half not. The Borders were a hot bed of dissent - the Minister for Whitsome complained in his (1790s) Statistical Account entry that about a third of the folk in his parish were Free Church members, and there's no reason to think that Whitsome was better or worse than any other parish Lesley Robertson ******************************************************************** Dr Lesley A. Robertson CBiol FIBiol Kluyver Laboratory for Biotechnology, Delft University of Technology, Julianalaan 67, 2628BC, Delft,The Netherlands tel 31 15 2782421; fax 31 15 2782355; email L.A.Robertson@stm.tudelft.nl.

Hi Margaret, >William, John, Jannet, Ralph Oliphant, and Janet. Since the name is fairly >unusual, I have searched the period 1740-1771 and have several >possibilities, but none were born in Roxburghshire. The most viable >candidate's parents were Samuel and Elisabeth Wright Young, with siblings >named Robert, Elizabeth, William, Archibald, Anne, & Margaret, and puts his >birth at 1755 in Cramond, Edinburgh, Midlothian. Not exactly around the >corner, but not the other end of the country. > >The next most viable candidate in terms of names repeating (William, Agnes, >John, and Elizabeth) was born in 1715 in Ayr. I would think this fellow >would have been a little long in the tooth to be fathering 9 children >starting in 1791 and ending in 1806. The only other candidate, was born in >1742, and no names fall in with any previous family names or patterns. > >Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Yes - remember that the parish registers do not cover every birth. Your Mungo may have been born in Roxburghshire (or somewhere else nearby) but his birth not recorded in surviving records. It's probably not an appealing thought because it does raise the possibility of family lines being very difficult (if not impossible) to trace, but it seems to have affected a fairly hefty proportion of births in southern Scotland in that period. Also since the family were fairly near the Border there's a chance that Mungo's forebears may have been Scots working on/across the Border line: in such a case they might not appear in the English baptismal records, if they were Presbyterians. There were Presbyterian congregations on the English side but you can't rely on every birth being recorded. Good luck though! Viv Dunstan

I do know that the naming pattern as mentioned was followed by three branches of my family in Northumberland, but -- even though they lived in Northumberland the family ties seemed to be more in Scotland. Also, the practice of following the naming pattern seemed to stop in the mid 1800's in my family, especially after they left Northumberland for the United States. Sheila Charlton Spencer familyact1@aol.com

Nicky, Do you know what shipping line he sailed with? That would be the first bit of information you need as The Merchant Navy is a collection of private companies (in the UK at least). If he was with a UK company, you could contact the Museum of Shipping on Albert Dock in Liverpool, or look for the Company's head office via the Phone book and write to them directly, if they still exist. If it is a UK company, let me know what you have found out & I'll see if I can add anything. My dad was in the Merchant Navy out of Liverpool for 35 years & I have some knowledge of who bought who over those years. Cheers Karen in Cheshire Nicky Young wrote: > > Hello > My father was in the Merchant Navy for a short period > sometime in the 1920's, and I was wondering if anyone knows > if there is any way I can get details of his records.Or any > websites that will give me information. > Thanks in Advance > Nicky Young > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details.

Dee Lerch <dlerch@uniserve.com> wrote: >Naming Pattern popular between >1700 and 1875 in UK as follows. > >- The first son was named after the father's father >- The second son was named after the mother's father >- The third son was named after the father >- The fourth son was named after the father's eldest brother >- The first daughter after the mother's mother >- The second daughter after the father's mother >- The third daughter after the mother >- The fourth daughter after the mother's eldest sister Could you tell me the source for this please? In all my studies I've never seen any indication of a popular UK-wide pattern in this period. There is evidence from the past of a Scottish pattern, but there seems less evidence of a single English pattern, let alone any overall UK one. There is a very common pattern that researchers see in lowland Scottish families during the pre-1900 period, and that runs to 1st son after father's father 2nd son after mother's father 3rd son after father 1st dau after mother's mother 2nd dau after father's mother 3rd dau after mother But there were enough variations in this pattern even in lowland Scotland to caution people against relying upon it completely, and to extend any "standard" pattern beyond the first 3 sons/daughters is pushing any idea of "standardization" way too far IMHO. For a detailed discussion of this see for example Gerald Hamilton-Edwards' "In seach of Scottish ancestry" Chapter 5 (other Scottish genealogy textbooks should also cover naming patterns to varying degrees). In my albeit more limited experience of English research I've found it hard to detect evidence of any kind of pattern, though something that I have seen (albeit more in southern England) is a fairly high chance of a couple naming son 1 after the father (i.e. the child's father) and daughter 1 after the mother. Beyond that any naming seems to be very varied. This extends across England east-west. Moving further north I've seen some cases of what looks at the start like a Scottish pattern, but then it varies again: more often than not drawing on biblical (non family) names for the younger children. And back in Scotland (in the Borders) where one parent is from England (I wish the census returns were more precise on cross-Border birthplaces!) there seems less chance of the Scottish pattern being upheld when it comes to naming children. Can other listers comment on any pattterns or otherwise on the English side of the border, e.g. in the Northumberland/Cumberland area? Was there something approaching a Scottish pattern, or was the situation very different? Was there even a pattern at all? Experiences from single families are interesting, but it can be easier to look for overall patterns if you've examined many many families in an area, e.g. perhaps as part of a local or community history project. If anyone falls into this category and can comment on the naming patterns I'd be delighted to hear from you. Ditto for any written commentary on the subject (that can be substantiated). Many thanks! Viv Dunstan Fife, Scotland (but originally from Roxburghshire) http://www.vivdunstan.clara.net/ P.S. Apologies if the naming pattern given at the top comes from a published book or likewise, but I suspect that it may be false whatever. Even something in a published book can be incorrect :)

Hello there, Many thanks to each and everyone of you who posted replys to my request regarding occupations and the location of Riddletonhill. It was very overwhelming to say the least. My thanks once again. I can now trace the movements of my 3xG.Grandfather from 1829 - 1851. Still have to find and confirm his birth which on the 1851 census records him as being born at Maxton. To J.Gregory Barron :- Thankyou for your reply. My 3x G.Grandfather recordered as living at Riddletonhill as a steward in 1829 was Robert Rutherford at the birth of his eldest son called Robert. We have similiar names. Robert's 4th son was called George and his only daughter, 7th child was called Helen. Is there a link between your George and my Robert. To Stephen Karner :- I am willing to look up the film on the Linton Parish register for you. I have access to the film at our L.D.S. library for another week. However, I must inform you that the early part of the register is very hard to read, some of it I think is in Latin, very small writing and very hard to see. It is easier to read from approximately 1750 onwards and goes through to 1854. Please let me know what you would like me to research and I'll try and do my best. To Peter Kerse :- Thankyou for your great list of occupations. I will look for your names etc and post to you, hopefully I can be of some help to you also. Good luck with family research, Dianne Dixon New Zealand.

Hello, It would be very possible that William could be in one of a few places on the night of the census. The census recorded people in a dwelling that night, not who normally lived there. At least you know he is alive because Eleanor is not a Widow. If his occupation required him to go elsewhere to find work he could be lodging in someone else's house. He could be in hospital, in jail, staying at a relative's house. If he was a ship carpenter in port on a boat somewhere due to working on the boat. Staying at a tavern en-route to home or to a place. I suggest you run a full search for him on the 1881 British Isles census as produced by the LDS. Regards Lynn T ----- Original Message ----- From: <JMTsparks@aol.com> To: <> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 6:09 AM Subject: Is Anyone Missing William THOMPSON? > Hello List, > > This particular man for me has gone missing! > > Marriage Record: "My William THOMPSON" married Eleanor Faulder SUTTON. 4 Jan > 1866, Carlisle, Cumberland. > > William gave his Occ: as warehouseman assistant. of HAWICK > Father name: GEORGE THOMPSON, GENTLEMAN. > > The next that I hear of this family is the 1881 Census: > here is Eleanor & 3 children, NO William. Eleanor listed as a married > annuitant. > > The 3rd child a son named Percy William THOMPSON is born in WIGTON. 4 Sep > 1870. This is a different place for them from Carlisle. > > Can anyone on this list please help me to make some sense of all of it? Did I > forget to mention that the 3 children & ??? came to the USA in ~1887? > > Regards, > Marjorie in NV., USA > > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > >

Since we are on the topic of naming patterns and Rutherfords I thought I would post my Rutherford lines again to see if they fit with someone elses. They are also a good example of the naming pattern. Dee Generation No. 1 1. RICHARD RUTHERFORD I was born 1714, and died 1786 in Hownam, Roxburgh, Scotland. He married ISABEL HALL. Children of RICHARD RUTHERFORD and ISABEL HALL are: 2. i. ANDREW RUTHERFORD I, b. 1743, Hownam, Roxburgh, Scotland; d. 1840, Hownam, Roxburgh, Scotland. ii. ISABEL RUTHERFORD, b. 1752. 3. iii. GEORGE RUTHERFORD I, b. 1758, Scotland; d. 1832. iv. RICHARD RUTHERFORD II, b. 1780; m. JANET ROBSON. Generation No. 2 2. ANDREW RUTHERFORD I (RICHARD) was born 1743 in Hownam, Roxburgh, Scotland, and died 1840 in Hownam, Roxburgh, Scotland. He married CHRISTIAN STEVENSON, daughter of GIDEON STEVENSON and ISABEL KERR. Children of ANDREW RUTHERFORD and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON are: i. CHRISTINA RUTHERFORD, b. April 1771, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. ii. ISABEL RUTHERFORD, b. March 1774, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. iii. RICHARD RUTHERFORD II, b. August 1776, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. 4. iv. GIDEON RUTHERFORD, b. September 1778, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland; d. Abt. 1869, Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland. v. JOHN RUTHERFORD, b. January 1781, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. vi. ANDREW RUTHERFORD II, b. July 1783, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. vii. ELSPETH RUTHERFORD, b. January 1786. viii. EUPHEMIA RUTHERFORD, b. January 1786, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. ix. BEATRICE RUTHERFORD, b. August 1788, Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland. 5. x. JANE RUTHERFORD, b. October 1791, Ravingburn, Roxburgh, Scotland; d. 1847, Hownam, Roxburgh. 3. GEORGE2 RUTHERFORD I (RICHARD1) was born 1758 in Scotland, and died 1832. He married HELEN (ELLEN) ARMSTRONG. Children of GEORGE RUTHERFORD and HELEN ARMSTRONG are: i. ANNIE RUTHERFORD. ii. CATHERINE RUTHERFORD. iii. ELLEN RUTHERFORD. iv. ISABEL RUTHERFORD, m. WILLIAM TURNBULL. v. MARGARET RUTHERFORD. vi. RICHARD RUTHERFORD IV, b. September 29, 1791, Morebattle, Roxburgh Scotland. vii. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD, b. Abt. 1800. 6. viii. GEORGE RUTHERFORD II, b. 1806; d. 1857, Newcastleton, Roxbroughshire, Scotland. Generation No. 3 4. GIDEON RUTHERFORD (ANDREW2, RICHARD1) was born September 1778 in Hownam, Jedbroughshire, Scotland, and died Abt. 1869 in Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland. He married MARGARET BROWN. Children of GIDEON RUTHERFORD and MARGARET BROWN are: i. ELIZABETH RUTHERFORD, b. January 27, 1805, Birdhorpe Craig, Northumberland, England; d. April 10, 1886, Yarrawonga, Victoria, Australia; m. ROBERT SMITH TELFER, November 26, 1830, Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland; d. April 10, 1886, Yarrawonga, Victoria, Australia. ii. ANDREW RUTHERFORD, b. September 03, 1808, Loth Sutherland, Scotland; m. ELIZA MCLEOD, October 1833, Golspie, Sutherland, Scotland. iii. RICHARD RUTHERFORD, b. June 27, 1811, Loth Sutherland, Scotland; m. BARBARA MCKAY, September 05, 1835, Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland. iv. ROBERT RUTHERFORD, b. September 05, 1813, Loth Sutherland, Scotland; m. CHRISTINA ROSS. v. THOMAS RUTHERFORD, b. Abt. 1816. vi. GIDEON RUTHERFORD, b. 1819, Sutherland Scotland; d. December 03, 1860, "Peechelba Station" Yarrawonga, Victoria, Australia; m. MARY ANNE MACCRAE, 1846, Geelong, Victoria, Australia. vii. CHRISTINE RUTHERFORD, b. September 04, 1822, Loth Sutherland, Scotland; d. 1860, Horsham Victoria Australia; m. DONALD MATHESON. viii. JOHN RUTHERFORD, b. October 14, 1824, Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland; d. 1880, Kildonan, Sutherland Scotland; m. (1) MARY ARMSTRONG, Scotland; b. Scotland; m. (2) JANE MCPHERSON, August 04, 1859, Geelong, Victoria, Australia. ix. MARGARET RUTHERFORD, b. April 12, 1827, Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland; d. December 1894, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia; m. EWAN MCPHERSON, 1845, Laggin, Inverness, Scotland. x. JAMES RUTHERFORD, b. September 25, 1829, Kildonan, Sutherland, Scotland; d. November 28, 1881, "Ulupna Station"Strathmerton, Victoria, Australia; m. ANNA BARR BROWN, 1856, Australia. xi. GEORGE RUTHERFORD, b. May 06, 1833. 5. JANE RUTHERFORD (ANDREW2, RICHARD1) was born October 1791 in Ravingburn, Roxburgh, Scotland, and died 1847 in Hownam, Roxburgh. She married GEORGE RUTHERFORD II October 23, 1829 in Jedburgh, Roxburgh Scotland, son of GEORGE RUTHERFORD and HELEN ARMSTRONG. He was born 1806, and died 1857 in Newcastleton, Roxbroughshire, Scotland. Children of JANE RUTHERFORD and GEORGE RUTHERFORD are: i. CATHARINE4 RUTHERFORD, b. December 05, 1829, Ravenburn, Roxburgh, Scotland; m. THOMAS TURNBULL, February 23, 1852, Southdean, Roxburgh Scotland. ii. HELEN (ELLEN)RUTHERFORD, b. May 17, 1831, Southdean & Abbotrule Roxburgh Scotland; m. PETER INGLIS; b. 1853. iii. GEORGE RUTHERFORD III, b. March 27, 1833, Southdean & Abbotrule Roxburgh Scotland; d. January 29, 1913, Elmira Illinois; m. (1) JANE ARMSTRONG, February 19, 1863, Illinois (Stark); b. 1834, New Castelton, Scotland; d. October 03, 1874, Illinois; m. (2) CAROLINE G. BURGE, 1883; b. March 1847, New Hampshire; d. March 12, 1933, Illinois. iv. ISABELLA RUTHERFORD, b. March 05, 1835, Southdean & Abbotrule Roxburgh Scotland; d. May 23, 1898, Pawnee City , Nebraska; m. WALTER LOCH, April 1853; b. January 31, 1829, Newbigging, Oxnam Roxburgh Scotland; d. January 18, 1900, Pawnee City , Nebraska. 6. GEORGE RUTHERFORD II (GEORGE2, RICHARD1) was born 1806, and died 1857 in Newcastleton, Roxbroughshire, Scotland. He married JANE RUTHERFORD October 23, 1829 in Jedburgh, Roxburgh Scotland, daughter of ANDREW RUTHERFORD and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON. She was born October 1791 in Ravingburn, Roxburgh, Scotland, and died 1847 in Hownam, Roxburgh. Children are listed above under (5) Jane Rutherford. Jane and George were first cousins.

Hi Vivienne, Actually I just read the article again and the naming pattern comes from the book "In Search of your British and Irish Roots" by Angus Baxter. Hope this helps. Dee

Vivienne, The source is from an article at www.genealogy.com on the Importance of Given Names. Here is the website address for the article http://www.genealogy.com/genealogy/35_donna.html I've been noticing this very pattern in most of my family since I started researching in Scotland, but I never said that it was a die hard rule only a popular naming pattern. You don't want to give it too much credence as the article says. Dee > Could you tell me the source for this please? In all my studies I've > never seen any indication of a popular UK-wide pattern in this period. > There is evidence from the past of a Scottish pattern, but there seems > less evidence of a single English pattern, let alone any overall UK one.

My great-grandmother was Mary BOOKLESS Rutherford BAPTIE. Evidently her husband died before she married my grandfather. She had a son, Jock RUTHERFORD, b. 1874 who was a gamekeeper at Dumfries, Scotland. He married Margaret. I am sorry the information is so sketchy, but maybe this is a piece of someone's puzzle. Gail Hubbard > > #8 Rutherford's [Chris & Sheila Hale <cshale@home.c] > #9 Re: Rutherford's ["J. Gregory Barron" <jgbarron@mind] > #10 '91 Census Rox; Certain Parishes ["Arnott, J&H" <jta@islandnet.com>] > #11 Is Anyone Missing William THOMPSON [JMTsparks@aol.com] > > Administrivia: > To unsubscribe from BORDER-D, send a message to > > BORDER-D-request@rootsweb.com > > that contains in the body of the message the command > > unsubscribe > > and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software > requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re Mystery > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:55:35 +0100 > From: "Kay Liney" <kay@knockard.freeserve.co.uk> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > In 1881 my great uncle John MacDougall is a Boots at Tower Knowe Hotel > in Hawick, The Hotel Keeper is John Robertson aged 44, his wife Mary S > Robertson age 39 b Glasgow. By 1890 John is a Hotel Keeper in Chapel en > Le Frith, Derbyshire where his first child is born. The parents name her > Mary Stewart Robertson MacDougall. Not after the wife's mother, but > after his former employer's wife. Question is did the Robertsons help to > set John up in his own hotel. I don't suppose I will ever know > Kay > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Names > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:13:23 -0600 > From: "Marilen" <tucar@uswest.net> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Dear Researchers, > > Some months ago, somebody posted a small article about the traditional order > of naming family members (e.g. 1st. child: Named after father’s father and > so on). If any of you has that article in your archive, could you be so > kind to send me a copy of it? Thank you very much. > > Maria > Orem, Utah, USA > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Naming Pattern > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:39:44 -0700 > From: "Dee Lerch" <dlerch@uniserve.com> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Naming Pattern popular between > 1700 and 1875 in UK as follows. > > - The first son was named after the father's father > - The second son was named after the mother's father > - The third son was named after the father > - The fourth son was named after the father's eldest brother > - The first daughter after the mother's mother > - The second daughter after the father's mother > -The third daughter after the mother > - The fourth daughter after the mother's eldest sister > > Dear Researchers, > > Some months ago, somebody posted a small article about the traditional order > of naming family members (e.g. 1st. child: Named after father's father and > so on). If any of you has that article in your archive, could you be so > kind to send me a copy of it? Thank you very much. > > Maria > Orem, Utah, USA > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Name Variations > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:40:46 +0100 > From: "Lynn Tennant" <lynn@ancestors-in-yorkshire.fsnet.co.uk> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Dear Glennys, > I know nothing of Scottish research but in my neck of the woods > Jno =John > Jas =James > > My regards > Lynn T > Interest in Connochie Kinlochleven / Selkirk? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John and Glennys Gow <jggow@bigpond.com> > To: <> > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:10 AM > Subject: Name Variations > > > Hi listers, > > > > My Border ancestor Jane Blair was also known as Jean which I understand is > > fairly commonplace. > > > > Can anyone confirm for me that the abbreviations > > > > Jno = John > > Jas = James > > > > Thanks, > > Glennys Gow in Lismore, NSW > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ruth Edwards" <bredwards@datafast.net.au> > > To: <BORDER-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 8:18 PM > > Subject: Re Names > > > > > > > Hi Al, > > > How about Barbara, there is Barb, Babs Biddy Barbi. > > > Anyone think of any more. > > > Ruth Edwards > > > Australia > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > > > > > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: RE: Wondering > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:09:27 +0100 > From: "Helen Weddell" <icedancer@mail.com> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Please! I would like to know the answer to this one as well. > Helen in Sussex > Researching; > WATSON + GORE + RICHARDSON + ROUGHT = Norfolk and Suffolk borders > MORLEY + POTTS + SCOTT + GLASS + CARDY = Scottish Borders and Northern > England > NUNN + L'ESTRANGE + HOLTON + SYKES + CLAYTON = India and UK. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicky Young [mailto:nickyy@hotkey.net.au] > Sent: 22 October 2000 12:34 > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Wondering > > Hello > My father was in the Merchant Navy for a short period > sometime in the 1920's, and I was wondering if anyone knows > if there is any way I can get details of his records.Or any > websites that will give me information. > Thanks in Advance > Nicky Young > > ______________________________ > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Parish Records, Roxburghshire. > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:41:46 +1300 > From: "Brian & Dianne Dixon" <bddixon@inet.net.nz> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Hello there, > Many thanks to each and everyone of you who posted replys to my request regarding occupations and the location of Riddletonhill. It was very overwhelming to say the least. My thanks once again. > I can now trace the movements of my 3xG.Grandfather from 1829 - 1851. Still have to find and confirm his birth which on the 1851 census records him as being born at Maxton. > To J.Gregory Barron :- Thankyou for your reply. My 3x G.Grandfather recordered as living at Riddletonhill as a steward in 1829 was Robert Rutherford at the birth of his eldest son called Robert. We have similiar names. Robert's 4th son was called George and his only daughter, 7th child was called Helen. Is there a link between your George and my Robert. > To Stephen Karner :- I am willing to look up the film on the Linton Parish register for you. I have access to the film at our L.D.S. library for another week. However, I must inform you that the early part of the register is very hard to read, some of it I think is in Latin, very small writing and very hard to see. It is easier to read from approximately 1750 onwards and goes through to 1854. Please let me know what you would like me to research and I'll try and do my best. > To Peter Kerse :- Thankyou for your great list of occupations. I will look for your names etc and post to you, hopefully I can be of some help to you also. > Good luck with family research, > Dianne Dixon > New Zealand. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Parish Records, Roxburghshire. > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:20:39 -0400 > From: "J. Gregory Barron" <jgbarron@mindspring.com> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Hello again! > I'm happy you received many positive responses. I am fasinated that we may > have a match with your Robert RUTHERFORD, farm steward in Riddletonhill, and > my 3X great grandfather George RUTHERFORD, farm steward in Minto! I read in > just the previous post about naming patterns and the 4th son was to be named > after the father's eldest brother! And according to you, Robert's 4th son is > named GEORGE. Before I get carried away, do you know of your Robert's > parents and siblings? I would be happy to learn more. I have reached the > proverbial wall on this incredible line. ( They were even farm stewards at > the same time-1830's!) I look forward to hearing from you again. > > Thank you > J Greg Barron > jgbarron@mindspring.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian & Dianne Dixon <bddixon@inet.net.nz> > To: <BORDER-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 6:41 PM > Subject: Parish Records, Roxburghshire. > > > Hello there, > > Many thanks to each and everyone of you who posted replys to my request > regarding occupations and the location of Riddletonhill. It was very > overwhelming to say the least. My thanks once again. > > I can now trace the movements of my 3xG.Grandfather from 1829 - 1851. > Still have to find and confirm his birth which on the 1851 census records > him as being born at Maxton. > > To J.Gregory Barron :- Thankyou for your reply. My 3x G.Grandfather > recordered as living at Riddletonhill as a steward in 1829 was Robert > Rutherford at the birth of his eldest son called Robert. We have similiar > names. Robert's 4th son was called George and his only daughter, 7th child > was called Helen. Is there a link between your George and my Robert. > > To Stephen Karner :- I am willing to look up the film on the Linton Parish > register for you. I have access to the film at our L.D.S. library for > another week. However, I must inform you that the early part of the register > is very hard to read, some of it I think is in Latin, very small writing > and very hard to see. It is easier to read from approximately 1750 onwards > and goes through to 1854. Please let me know what you would like me to > research and I'll try and do my best. > > To Peter Kerse :- Thankyou for your great list of occupations. I will look > for your names etc and post to you, hopefully I can be of some help to you > also. > > Good luck with family research, > > Dianne Dixon > > New Zealand. > > > > > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > > > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Rutherford's > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:20:43 -0600 > From: Chris & Sheila Hale <cshale@home.com> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > I have a Thomas Rutherford b. est 1816/17 at Hawick who married > my GGAutn Christian Scott in 1843 at Yarrow Selkirk. He was a > Gamekeeper. Children I know about include Jane, Thomas, David, > George and Walter Beattie Rutherford born between 1844 and 1853 > most at Bellendean, Hawick, Roxburgh, Scotland. > > Does he fit in with your Rutherford's > > Sheila I Hale > > "J. Gregory Barron" wrote: > > > > Hello again! > > I'm happy you received many positive responses. I am fasinated that we may > > have a match with your Robert RUTHERFORD, farm steward in Riddletonhill, and > > my 3X great grandfather George RUTHERFORD, farm steward in Minto! I read in > > just the previous post about naming patterns and the 4th son was to be named > > after the father's eldest brother! And according to you, Robert's 4th son is > > named GEORGE. Before I get carried away, do you know of your Robert's > > parents and siblings? I would be happy to learn more. I have reached the > > proverbial wall on this incredible line. ( They were even farm stewards at > > the same time-1830's!) I look forward to hearing from you again. > > > > Thank you > > J Greg Barron > > jgbarron@mindspring.com > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Rutherford's > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:58:51 -0400 > From: "J. Gregory Barron" <jgbarron@mindspring.com> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Thank you for your response. I am only now begining to scratch the surface > of the RUTHERFORD family history. The furthest back I have yet gone is a > birth entry in Minto, Roxburgh showing the birth of my gg grandmother, Helen > Rutherford to her father George RUTHERFORD on 3 Jan 1830. It states he is a > farm steward. His wife Mina EASTON may have been the " ladies maid of the > Countess of Minto." I speculate George may have worked at the Earl's estate > and farm (Earl Gilbert Elliot). > George RUTHERFORD had a son John who owned a major firm in HAWICK: Turner, > Rutherford & Co. Ltd.. Established in 1880, it survived almost 100 years as > a hoisey factory with offices in London also. I know little of this John > RUTHERFORD other than his date of birth: 3 May 1833. Hawick, by the way, is > the nearest big town to Minto. Your Thomas may be a brother to my George > Rutherford or cousin from the dates you offer. > Again, please stay in touch and thank you for your interesting response.@ > > J Gregory Barron > Atlanta, Georgia, USA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris & Sheila Hale <cshale@home.com> > To: <BORDER-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 9:20 PM > Subject: Rutherford's > > > I have a Thomas Rutherford b. est 1816/17 at Hawick who married > > my GGAutn Christian Scott in 1843 at Yarrow Selkirk. He was a > > Gamekeeper. Children I know about include Jane, Thomas, David, > > George and Walter Beattie Rutherford born between 1844 and 1853 > > most at Bellendean, Hawick, Roxburgh, Scotland. > > > > Does he fit in with your Rutherford's > > > > Sheila I Hale > > > > > > > > "J. Gregory Barron" wrote: > > > > > > Hello again! > > > I'm happy you received many positive responses. I am fasinated that we > may > > > have a match with your Robert RUTHERFORD, farm steward in Riddletonhill, > and > > > my 3X great grandfather George RUTHERFORD, farm steward in Minto! I > read in > > > just the previous post about naming patterns and the 4th son was to be > named > > > after the father's eldest brother! And according to you, Robert's 4th > son is > > > named GEORGE. Before I get carried away, do you know of your Robert's > > > parents and siblings? I would be happy to learn more. I have reached the > > > proverbial wall on this incredible line. ( They were even farm stewards > at > > > the same time-1830's!) I look forward to hearing from you again. > > > > > > Thank you > > > J Greg Barron > > > jgbarron@mindspring.com > > > > > > ==== BORDER Mailing List ==== > > The Border Names Newsletter contact boglelodge@yahoo.com for details. > > > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: '91 Census Rox; Certain Parishes > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:58:08 -0700 > From: "Arnott, J&H" <jta@islandnet.com> > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Hi Listers: > > I currently have on loan LDS Film No. 220433 for the 1891 Census of Roxburghshire. It contains the Parish listings for: > 780 - Ancrum > 781 - Ashkirk > 782 - Bedrule > 783 - Bowden > 784 - Castleton > 785 - Cavers > 786 - Crailing > > If anyone out there would like a lookup within any of the above, please provide me with your Family Group details. Based on past experience of a similar posting I placed last month, preference will be given to those who provide me with full details of the family they are searching. > > Jim Arnott > Canada > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Is Anyone Missing William THOMPSON? > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:09:26 EDT > From: JMTsparks@aol.com > To: BORDER-L@rootsweb.com > > Hello List, > > This particular man for me has gone missing! > > Marriage Record: "My William THOMPSON" married Eleanor Faulder SUTTON. 4 Jan > 1866, Carlisle, Cumberland. > > William gave his Occ: as warehouseman assistant. of HAWICK > Father name: GEORGE THOMPSON, GENTLEMAN. > > The next that I hear of this family is the 1881 Census: > here is Eleanor & 3 children, NO William. Eleanor listed as a married > annuitant. > > The 3rd child a son named Percy William THOMPSON is born in WIGTON. 4 Sep > 1870. This is a different place for them from Carlisle. > > Can anyone on this list please help me to make some sense of all of it? Did I > forget to mention that the 3 children & ??? came to the USA in ~1887? > > Regards, > Marjorie in NV., USA

I, too, would be very interested in hearing about experiences, Viv. A gx4-grandfather was named Mungo Young. On his marriage banns, he was listed as being from Eckford Parish and his bride, Margaret, from Gordon, and they married in 1791. Also on their banns, a William Young was listed is his Cautioner. Their children were James, Margaret, Agnes, Elisabeth, William, John, Jannet, Ralph Oliphant, and Janet. Since the name is fairly unusual, I have searched the period 1740-1771 and have several possibilities, but none were born in Roxburghshire. The most viable candidate's parents were Samuel and Elisabeth Wright Young, with siblings named Robert, Elizabeth, William, Archibald, Anne, & Margaret, and puts his birth at 1755 in Cramond, Edinburgh, Midlothian. Not exactly around the corner, but not the other end of the country. The next most viable candidate in terms of names repeating (William, Agnes, John, and Elizabeth) was born in 1715 in Ayr. I would think this fellow would have been a little long in the tooth to be fathering 9 children starting in 1791 and ending in 1806. The only other candidate, was born in 1742, and no names fall in with any previous family names or patterns. Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Meg Landseadel Staton Lawrenceville, Georgia, USA

Hello List, This particular man for me has gone missing! Marriage Record: "My William THOMPSON" married Eleanor Faulder SUTTON. 4 Jan 1866, Carlisle, Cumberland. William gave his Occ: as warehouseman assistant. of HAWICK Father name: GEORGE THOMPSON, GENTLEMAN. The next that I hear of this family is the 1881 Census: here is Eleanor & 3 children, NO William. Eleanor listed as a married annuitant. The 3rd child a son named Percy William THOMPSON is born in WIGTON. 4 Sep 1870. This is a different place for them from Carlisle. Can anyone on this list please help me to make some sense of all of it? Did I forget to mention that the 3 children & ??? came to the USA in ~1887? Regards, Marjorie in NV., USA