Thank you everyone for your inciteful(sp?) replies. It helps to make it more interesting to know what my ggf was fighting for. The british may not have always been the kindest of people but we sure have a colorful history. Thanks again. Danielle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com

Hello Pamela, Firstly, there was no unit called Kitchener's Field Service. The unit is Kitchener's Fighting Scouts, the confusion no doubt caused by the unit naming 'Kitchener's F.S.' on the Queen's South Africa Medal (QSA) that you have. The K.F.S. was formed in December 1900 and recruited from the Cape Colony and Natal. Their first actions were in Cape Colony but they served all over SA. They tended to be involved in small actions and skirmishes. The original contingent later became the 1st K.F.S. upon the formation of the 2nd K.F.S. The QSA medal rolls are at the PRO in Kew under subseries WO 100/256 (1st) and 257 (2nd). These will confirm his medal and clasp entitlement. Because the unit was formed only in December 1900 I rather think that he also qualified for either the South Africa 1901 or South Africa 1902 clasp or both. These date clasps were often issued separately and late and often never got attached to the medals. Because there is no Cape Colony clasp I think it's more likely he was in the 2nd K.F.S. The formation of K.F.S. was too late for a recruit to qualify for the King's South Africa Medal (KSA) - instead of the date clasps on his QSA - unless he had previous service with another unit and met the other qualification criteria. I don't have any personal experience of researching this unit so I'm not 100% sure but the attestation and service papers for K.F.S. should also be at the PRO although they it's possible they are in South Africa. Papers for colonial units tend to be a bit sparse. A good account of their service is in 'The Colonials in South Africa 1899-1902' by John Stirling IBSN 0-903754-44-4 which your local library should be able to source for you. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: Pamela Smith <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:22 AM Subject: [BOER-WAR] queri of Biel > I am looking for my Grandfather Edward Philip Biel who went to the Boer War from N Z and was in the Kitcheners Field Service. > His Medal- On the bar it reads. > Transvaal 1841 TPR E Biel Kitcheners Field Service. > > Where can I find out data on this, where he fort went and how do I get his record. > He remained in S A and Married. No record from the time he went to SA till he married. > Pamela

I am looking for my Grandfather Edward Philip Biel who went to the Boer War from N Z and was in the Kitcheners Field Service. His Medal- On the bar it reads. Transvaal 1841 TPR E Biel Kitcheners Field Service. Where can I find out data on this, where he fort went and how do I get his record. He remained in S A and Married. No record from the time he went to SA till he married. Pamela

Ahh...thanks. I was hoping my memory wasn't THAT bad! Pat -----Original Message----- From: Flory, Richard <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 03:59 PM Subject: RE: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >There is a small rose embem that was used to designate the clasp to the 1914 Star when only the service ribbon was worn. Great War medal index cards indicate the award of clasps to the 1914 Star with the phrase "Clasp and roses" or sometimes "C & R". The small rose emblem was later used to denote under certain circumstances a clasp to a WW2 Star. Regards. Dick Flory > >> ---------- >> From: Patricia Frykberg >> Reply To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 2:21 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >> >> Thanks Richard. That is fantastic info. But was there ever a small rose? I >> seem to remember something like that? >> Pat >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Flory, Richard <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 08:47 AM >> Subject: RE: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >> >> >> >Most collectors today use the terms 'clasp' and 'bar' interchangeably, but >> some still insist that a campaign medal has clasps and that bars are used to >> denote an additional award of a decoration. >> >Pat indicates that Mentions in Despatches are marked with a little rose of >> the ribbon - that is incorrect for a number of reasons: >> > 1. "Little roses" have never been used to indicate a mention in >> despatches - the proper emblem is a multiple-leaved bronze oak leaf for >> mentions in WW1 and a single-leaved bronze oak leaf for those mentioned >> after 10 August 1920. >> >3. There were mentions in despatches for the Boer War but no emblem was >> ever authorized for mentions in that war or for any campaign prior to World >> War I. >> >The only two clasps for the Queen's South Africa Medal that bear dates are >> "South Africa 1901" and "South Africa 1902." None of the other clasps bear >> dates, but they are generally divided by collectors into battle clasps that >> were given for the participation in specific battles (Defence of Kimberley, >> Elandslaagte, Defence of Mafeking, Talana, Defence of Ladysmith, Belmont, >> Modder River, Relief of Ladysmith, Tugela Heights, Relief of Kimberley, >> Paardeberg, Driefontein, Wepener, Relief of Mafeking, Johannesburg, Laing's >> Nek, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen and Belfast) and state clasps that were given >> for service in a particular state over a period of time (Cape Colony, Natal, >> Rhodesia, Orange Free State and Transvaal. >> >If a person served in the Boer War and also in the Great War his papers, if >> they still exist, should be "bundled" with his World War I papers, but I >> have seen some cases when they are available in WO 97. This seems to be >> particularly true if the man had a break in service between the two wars. >> >Regards. Dick Flory >> > >> >> ---------- >> >> From: Patricia Frykberg >> >> Reply To: [email protected] >> >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:16 AM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >> >> >> >> medal speak bar vs clasp. >> >> Well I think they are, but there is an occasion when a man gets a >> Mentioned >> >> in despatches and puts a little rose on the ribbon when he wears the rows >> of >> >> decorations in uniform (rudely called a chest of fruit salad) So is THAT >> a >> >> clasp and the others bars which only are shown on the medal+ribbon worn >> as >> >> the veterans do now on commemoration parades, Anzac day, Armistice day >> etc. >> >> Pat >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: David Parkes <[email protected]> >> >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> >> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 04:02 AM >> >> Subject: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >> >> >> >> >> >> >David Humphry wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles >> >> >> or sub-campaigns or or more general service. >> >> > >> >> >Silly question time: in medal-speak, is a clasp the same> >> >> >as a bar? i.e. the small metallic stip which lies >> >> >horizontally above the medal itself? >> >> > >> >> >I have heard/seen that the clasps/bars also have the >> >> >dates on them of the respective campaign, yet my GGF's >> >> >QSA medal does not - it just lists the three campaigns >> >> >[Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State]. Why is >> >> >that some QSA medals have dates and mine does not? >> >> > >> >> >Finally, as my GGF went onto serve in WWI as a member >> >> >of the Military Mounted Police [MMPs], where would >> >> >his Boer War service records lie? In the Boer War >> >> >"section" or "bundled" with his records from WWI? Any >> >> >thoughts? >> >> > >> >> >Many thanks for the detailed responses and assistance. >> >> > >> >> >Cheers, >> >> >Parkesy >> >> > >> >> >===== >> >> >E-mail: [email protected] [H] >> >> > [email protected] [W] >> >> > >> >> >AOL IM: smethwickman >> >> > >> >> >Phone: (972) 731-9243 [H] | (972) 528-2913 [W] >> >> > (469) 337-6986 [M] | (928) 244-2565 [F] >> >> > >> >> >__________________________________ >> >> >Do you Yahoo!? >> >> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >> >> >http://sbc.yahoo.com> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> >> >Boer War Links >> >> >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm >> >> > >> >> >============================== >> >> >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy >> records, >> >> go to: >> >> >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> >> Boer War Links >> >> http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm >> >> >> >> ============================== >> >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >> go to: >> >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> >Boer War Reading >> >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarReading.htm >> > >> >============================== >> >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >> go to: >> >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> > >> > >> >> >> ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> Boer War Reading >> http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarReading.htm >> >> ============================== >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> >> >> > > >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >List Admin Message >http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections/AdminMessage.htm > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Thanks Richard. That is fantastic info. But was there ever a small rose? I seem to remember something like that? Pat -----Original Message----- From: Flory, Richard <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 08:47 AM Subject: RE: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >Most collectors today use the terms 'clasp' and 'bar' interchangeably, but some still insist that a campaign medal has clasps and that bars are used to denote an additional award of a decoration. >Pat indicates that Mentions in Despatches are marked with a little rose of the ribbon - that is incorrect for a number of reasons: > 1. "Little roses" have never been used to indicate a mention in despatches - the proper emblem is a multiple-leaved bronze oak leaf for mentions in WW1 and a single-leaved bronze oak leaf for those mentioned after 10 August 1920. >3. There were mentions in despatches for the Boer War but no emblem was ever authorized for mentions in that war or for any campaign prior to World War I. >The only two clasps for the Queen's South Africa Medal that bear dates are "South Africa 1901" and "South Africa 1902." None of the other clasps bear dates, but they are generally divided by collectors into battle clasps that were given for the participation in specific battles (Defence of Kimberley, Elandslaagte, Defence of Mafeking, Talana, Defence of Ladysmith, Belmont, Modder River, Relief of Ladysmith, Tugela Heights, Relief of Kimberley, Paardeberg, Driefontein, Wepener, Relief of Mafeking, Johannesburg, Laing's Nek, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen and Belfast) and state clasps that were given for service in a particular state over a period of time (Cape Colony, Natal, Rhodesia, Orange Free State and Transvaal. >If a person served in the Boer War and also in the Great War his papers, if they still exist, should be "bundled" with his World War I papers, but I have seen some cases when they are available in WO 97. This seems to be particularly true if the man had a break in service between the two wars. >Regards. Dick Flory > >> ---------- >> From: Patricia Frykberg >> Reply To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:16 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >> >> medal speak bar vs clasp. >> Well I think they are, but there is an occasion when a man gets a Mentioned >> in despatches and puts a little rose on the ribbon when he wears the rows of >> decorations in uniform (rudely called a chest of fruit salad) So is THAT a >> clasp and the others bars which only are shown on the medal+ribbon worn as >> the veterans do now on commemoration parades, Anzac day, Armistice day etc. >> Pat >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Parkes <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 04:02 AM >> Subject: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >> >> >> >David Humphry wrote: >> > >> >> QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles >> >> or sub-campaigns or or more general service. >> > >> >Silly question time: in medal-speak, is a clasp the same >> >as a bar? i.e. the small metallic stip which lies >> >horizontally above the medal itself? >> > >> >I have heard/seen that the clasps/bars also have the >> >dates on them of the respective campaign, yet my GGF's >> >QSA medal does not - it just lists the three campaigns >> >[Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State]. Why is >> >that some QSA medals have dates and mine does not? >> > >> >Finally, as my GGF went onto serve in WWI as a member >> >of the Military Mounted Police [MMPs], where would >> >his Boer War service records lie? In the Boer War >> >"section" or "bundled" with his records from WWI? Any >> >thoughts? >> > >> >Many thanks for the detailed responses and assistance. >> > >> >Cheers, >> >Parkesy >> > >> >===== >> >E-mail: [email protected] [H] >> > [email protected] [W] >> > >> >AOL IM: smethwickman >> > >> >Phone: (972) 731-9243 [H] | (972) 528-2913 [W] >> > (469) 337-6986 [M] | (928) 244-2565 [F] >> > >> >__________________________________ >> >Do you Yahoo!? >> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >> >http://sbc.yahoo.com> >> > >> > >> >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> >Boer War Links >> >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm >> > >> >============================== >> >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >> go to: >> >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> > >> > >> >> >> ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> Boer War Links >> http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm >> >> ============================== >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> >> >> > > >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >Boer War Reading >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarReading.htm > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

medal speak bar vs clasp. Well I think they are, but there is an occasion when a man gets a Mentioned in despatches and puts a little rose on the ribbon when he wears the rows of decorations in uniform (rudely called a chest of fruit salad) So is THAT a clasp and the others bars which only are shown on the medal+ribbon worn as the veterans do now on commemoration parades, Anzac day, Armistice day etc. Pat -----Original Message----- From: David Parkes <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 04:02 AM Subject: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions >David Humphry wrote: > >> QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles >> or sub-campaigns or or more general service. > >Silly question time: in medal-speak, is a clasp the same >as a bar? i.e. the small metallic stip which lies >horizontally above the medal itself? > >I have heard/seen that the clasps/bars also have the >dates on them of the respective campaign, yet my GGF's >QSA medal does not - it just lists the three campaigns >[Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State]. Why is >that some QSA medals have dates and mine does not? > >Finally, as my GGF went onto serve in WWI as a member >of the Military Mounted Police [MMPs], where would >his Boer War service records lie? In the Boer War >"section" or "bundled" with his records from WWI? Any >thoughts? > >Many thanks for the detailed responses and assistance. > >Cheers, >Parkesy > >===== >E-mail: [email protected] [H] > [email protected] [W] > >AOL IM: smethwickman > >Phone: (972) 731-9243 [H] | (972) 528-2913 [W] > (469) 337-6986 [M] | (928) 244-2565 [F] > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >Boer War Links >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

There is a small rose embem that was used to designate the clasp to the 1914 Star when only the service ribbon was worn. Great War medal index cards indicate the award of clasps to the 1914 Star with the phrase "Clasp and roses" or sometimes "C & R". The small rose emblem was later used to denote under certain circumstances a clasp to a WW2 Star. Regards. Dick Flory > ---------- > From: Patricia Frykberg > Reply To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 2:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions > > Thanks Richard. That is fantastic info. But was there ever a small rose? I > seem to remember something like that? > Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: Flory, Richard <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 08:47 AM > Subject: RE: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions > > > >Most collectors today use the terms 'clasp' and 'bar' interchangeably, but > some still insist that a campaign medal has clasps and that bars are used to > denote an additional award of a decoration. > >Pat indicates that Mentions in Despatches are marked with a little rose of > the ribbon - that is incorrect for a number of reasons: > > 1. "Little roses" have never been used to indicate a mention in > despatches - the proper emblem is a multiple-leaved bronze oak leaf for > mentions in WW1 and a single-leaved bronze oak leaf for those mentioned > after 10 August 1920. > >3. There were mentions in despatches for the Boer War but no emblem was > ever authorized for mentions in that war or for any campaign prior to World > War I. > >The only two clasps for the Queen's South Africa Medal that bear dates are > "South Africa 1901" and "South Africa 1902." None of the other clasps bear > dates, but they are generally divided by collectors into battle clasps that > were given for the participation in specific battles (Defence of Kimberley, > Elandslaagte, Defence of Mafeking, Talana, Defence of Ladysmith, Belmont, > Modder River, Relief of Ladysmith, Tugela Heights, Relief of Kimberley, > Paardeberg, Driefontein, Wepener, Relief of Mafeking, Johannesburg, Laing's > Nek, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen and Belfast) and state clasps that were given > for service in a particular state over a period of time (Cape Colony, Natal, > Rhodesia, Orange Free State and Transvaal. > >If a person served in the Boer War and also in the Great War his papers, if > they still exist, should be "bundled" with his World War I papers, but I > have seen some cases when they are available in WO 97. This seems to be > particularly true if the man had a break in service between the two wars. > >Regards. Dick Flory > > > >> ---------- > >> From: Patricia Frykberg > >> Reply To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:16 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions > >> > >> medal speak bar vs clasp. > >> Well I think they are, but there is an occasion when a man gets a > Mentioned > >> in despatches and puts a little rose on the ribbon when he wears the rows > of > >> decorations in uniform (rudely called a chest of fruit salad) So is THAT > a > >> clasp and the others bars which only are shown on the medal+ribbon worn > as > >> the veterans do now on commemoration parades, Anzac day, Armistice day > etc. > >> Pat > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: David Parkes <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > >> Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 04:02 AM > >> Subject: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions > >> > >> > >> >David Humphry wrote: > >> > > >> >> QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles > >> >> or sub-campaigns or or more general service. > >> > > >> >Silly question time: in medal-speak, is a clasp the same> > >> >as a bar? i.e. the small metallic stip which lies > >> >horizontally above the medal itself? > >> > > >> >I have heard/seen that the clasps/bars also have the > >> >dates on them of the respective campaign, yet my GGF's > >> >QSA medal does not - it just lists the three campaigns > >> >[Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State]. Why is > >> >that some QSA medals have dates and mine does not? > >> > > >> >Finally, as my GGF went onto serve in WWI as a member > >> >of the Military Mounted Police [MMPs], where would > >> >his Boer War service records lie? In the Boer War > >> >"section" or "bundled" with his records from WWI? Any > >> >thoughts? > >> > > >> >Many thanks for the detailed responses and assistance. > >> > > >> >Cheers, > >> >Parkesy > >> > > >> >===== > >> >E-mail: [email protected] [H] > >> > [email protected] [W] > >> > > >> >AOL IM: smethwickman > >> > > >> >Phone: (972) 731-9243 [H] | (972) 528-2913 [W] > >> > (469) 337-6986 [M] | (928) 244-2565 [F] > >> > > >> >__________________________________ > >> >Do you Yahoo!? > >> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >> >http://sbc.yahoo.com> > >> > > >> > > >> >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > >> >Boer War Links > >> >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm > >> > > >> >============================== > >> >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, > >> go to: > >> >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > >> Boer War Links > >> http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm > >> > >> ============================== > >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > >Boer War Reading > >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarReading.htm > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > Boer War Reading > http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarReading.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

Hi to all! I am new to the list. I was wondering if SKS out there would be able to photograph the Bedfordshire Memorial for me?? I am looking for a specific name to be photographed. The name is William Nicholls. Surname: NICHOLLS Forenames or Initials: W Rank: Corporal Serial No: 5669 Battalion or Company: 2nd Regiment or Organisation: Bedfordshire Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide. Maureen

If I can suggest another couple of books: "The Anglo-Boer Wars: The British and the Afrikaners, 1815-1902" by Michael Barthorp is a very good book, lots of photographs included which always helps. You can also download Arthur Conan Doyles "The Great Boer War" free at Project Gutenburg. This is a project that makes available books which are now free of copyright and in the public domain. The address is http://gutenberg.net/ David McNay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven R. McHenry" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] What's the history? To Paul and All: That is excellant advice. I have used the Advanced Book Exchange for slightly less than three years now and have bought hundreds of books through them. Sometimes I just browse through their search engine, just to see what is being offered in my area of interests and rarely go empty handed. On the average I buy about 100 to 150 books a year, either directly through their service with the independent book dealers or indirectly throught the dealers themselves after using their search engine. The only problem that I have found is that if you have an older (I mean OLD) computer - and mine is very, very old, their new, revised on-line program, while easier to use, doesn't operate with older and outdated systems - like mine. But that is a problem that less than one percent of the internet users - just old guys like me that hold on to old machinery way after their usefulness has ended - seem to have. I still have a rotary dial phone somewhere in the house - can't dial out with it, it's just for incoming calls, but it looks neat. :) By all means, I second the motion to give ABE a try. You will end up expanding your library in ways you can't imagine and the time searching leads you to many interesting item you never knew existed. Steve Steve McHenry mAt 10:25 AM 7/13/03 +0100, Paul Snook wrote: >Very good advice. > >Since Danielle is overseas, I would suggest buying books via www.abebooks.com [SNOP] > >Regards >Deirdré Snook > ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== Getting Started on Boer War Research? http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BWInfo.htm ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Most collectors today use the terms 'clasp' and 'bar' interchangeably, but some still insist that a campaign medal has clasps and that bars are used to denote an additional award of a decoration. Pat indicates that Mentions in Despatches are marked with a little rose of the ribbon - that is incorrect for a number of reasons: 1. "Little roses" have never been used to indicate a mention in despatches - the proper emblem is a multiple-leaved bronze oak leaf for mentions in WW1 and a single-leaved bronze oak leaf for those mentioned after 10 August 1920. 3. There were mentions in despatches for the Boer War but no emblem was ever authorized for mentions in that war or for any campaign prior to World War I. The only two clasps for the Queen's South Africa Medal that bear dates are "South Africa 1901" and "South Africa 1902." None of the other clasps bear dates, but they are generally divided by collectors into battle clasps that were given for the participation in specific battles (Defence of Kimberley, Elandslaagte, Defence of Mafeking, Talana, Defence of Ladysmith, Belmont, Modder River, Relief of Ladysmith, Tugela Heights, Relief of Kimberley, Paardeberg, Driefontein, Wepener, Relief of Mafeking, Johannesburg, Laing's Nek, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen and Belfast) and state clasps that were given for service in a particular state over a period of time (Cape Colony, Natal, Rhodesia, Orange Free State and Transvaal. If a person served in the Boer War and also in the Great War his papers, if they still exist, should be "bundled" with his World War I papers, but I have seen some cases when they are available in WO 97. This seems to be particularly true if the man had a break in service between the two wars. Regards. Dick Flory > ---------- > From: Patricia Frykberg > Reply To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:16 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions > > medal speak bar vs clasp. > Well I think they are, but there is an occasion when a man gets a Mentioned > in despatches and puts a little rose on the ribbon when he wears the rows of > decorations in uniform (rudely called a chest of fruit salad) So is THAT a > clasp and the others bars which only are shown on the medal+ribbon worn as > the veterans do now on commemoration parades, Anzac day, Armistice day etc. > Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: David Parkes <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, 14 July 2003 04:02 AM > Subject: [BOER-WAR] Boer War: GB Medals - Follow-Up Questions > > > >David Humphry wrote: > > > >> QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles > >> or sub-campaigns or or more general service. > > > >Silly question time: in medal-speak, is a clasp the same > >as a bar? i.e. the small metallic stip which lies > >horizontally above the medal itself? > > > >I have heard/seen that the clasps/bars also have the > >dates on them of the respective campaign, yet my GGF's > >QSA medal does not - it just lists the three campaigns > >[Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State]. Why is > >that some QSA medals have dates and mine does not? > > > >Finally, as my GGF went onto serve in WWI as a member > >of the Military Mounted Police [MMPs], where would > >his Boer War service records lie? In the Boer War > >"section" or "bundled" with his records from WWI? Any > >thoughts? > > > >Many thanks for the detailed responses and assistance. > > > >Cheers, > >Parkesy > > > >===== > >E-mail: [email protected] [H] > > [email protected] [W] > > > >AOL IM: smethwickman > > > >Phone: (972) 731-9243 [H] | (972) 528-2913 [W] > > (469) 337-6986 [M] | (928) 244-2565 [F] > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com> > > > > > >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > >Boer War Links > >http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > Boer War Links > http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BoerWarLinks.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

Very good advice. Since Danielle is overseas, I would suggest buying books via www.abebooks.com I am in the UK and have used them several times for a variety of books. I found out about them from a local independent bookseller who frequents our local book fairs. They only represent Independent book sellers. Their online site is searchable and on a quick 'boer war' keyword search I found 7787 results. If one uses the 'advanced search' you can filter it for 'cheapest / hard or soft cover' and even for country to keep down postage (UK / US/ AU etc) I like Thomas Pakenham for quick reference because of its index, but one is spoilt for choice. Regards Deirdré Snook ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven R. McHenry To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:17 AM Subject: RE: [BOER-WAR] What's the history? If I could add to Dick Flory's excellant comments, there are a number of good books currently available at reasonable prices that provide a very good background on this conflict. They include the recently published "Fuelling the Empire, South Africa's Gold and the Road to War" by John Stephens, Thomas Pakenham's standard general history "The Boer War" and "The Origins of the South African War; Joseph Chamberlain and the Diplomacy of Imperialism, 1895-1899" by Andrew Porter. Another interesting book on the British army in this period is "Scarlet into Khaki; The British Army on the Eve of the Boer War" by Col. James M.Grierson. This last book was originally published in 1902 but can be had in a more recent reissue. That's just to name a very few. If you can't find anything on the subject in your local book stores, you should consider Clarks of South Africa, which is an excellant, if rather pricey, book store that concentrates on this period of British colonial history. Their service is prompt and efficient, their online catalogue is extensive and they will ship anywhere in the world. While this sounds like an advertisement, it is not, I am just their occasional customer. I have no other connection to that store. I Hope this is of some help. Steve McHenry ______________________________

To Paul and All: That is excellant advice. I have used the Advanced Book Exchange for slightly less than three years now and have bought hundreds of books through them. Sometimes I just browse through their search engine, just to see what is being offered in my area of interests and rarely go empty handed. On the average I buy about 100 to 150 books a year, either directly through their service with the independent book dealers or indirectly throught the dealers themselves after using their search engine. The only problem that I have found is that if you have an older (I mean OLD) computer - and mine is very, very old, their new, revised on-line program, while easier to use, doesn't operate with older and outdated systems - like mine. But that is a problem that less than one percent of the internet users - just old guys like me that hold on to old machinery way after their usefulness has ended - seem to have. I still have a rotary dial phone somewhere in the house - can't dial out with it, it's just for incoming calls, but it looks neat. :) By all means, I second the motion to give ABE a try. You will end up expanding your library in ways you can't imagine and the time searching leads you to many interesting item you never knew existed. Steve Steve McHenry mAt 10:25 AM 7/13/03 +0100, Paul Snook wrote: >Very good advice. > >Since Danielle is overseas, I would suggest buying books via www.abebooks.com [SNOP] > >Regards >Deirdré Snook >

David Humphry wrote: > QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles > or sub-campaigns or or more general service. Silly question time: in medal-speak, is a clasp the same as a bar? i.e. the small metallic stip which lies horizontally above the medal itself? I have heard/seen that the clasps/bars also have the dates on them of the respective campaign, yet my GGF's QSA medal does not - it just lists the three campaigns [Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State]. Why is that some QSA medals have dates and mine does not? Finally, as my GGF went onto serve in WWI as a member of the Military Mounted Police [MMPs], where would his Boer War service records lie? In the Boer War "section" or "bundled" with his records from WWI? Any thoughts? Many thanks for the detailed responses and assistance. Cheers, Parkesy ===== E-mail: [email protected] [H] [email protected] [W] AOL IM: smethwickman Phone: (972) 731-9243 [H] | (972) 528-2913 [W] (469) 337-6986 [M] | (928) 244-2565 [F] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com

I have many books on the South African War, also called the Anglo-Boer War and if you are of Afrikaans (Boer) descent the it would be the Second Freedom War. (1899-1902) I can do some lookups for specific questions if you like. Richard's summary is excellent, but like all summaries leaves out so much. Pat -----Original Message----- From: Flory, Richard <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Saturday, 12 July 2003 05:50 PM Subject: RE: [BOER-WAR] What's the history? >Gold was discovered in 1886 in the Transvaal which was then primarily populated by the Boers (Dutch settlers). Many outsiders (Uitlanders) came to the Transvaal because of the gold and posed a threat to the Boer rule. The British claimed that they represented the Uitlanders and eventually provoked a confrontation with the Boers tha led to the so called First Boer War in 1880-1881 which the British lost and later the Second Boer War of 1899-1902. In the second war the Boers initially besieged a number of British strongholds, including Ladysmith, Mafeking and Kimberley and carried out hit-and-run raids throughtout the Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Transvaal. The British eventually wore down the Boers and the war ended with a British victory in 1902. >I don't know where you were educated in the US but in most civilizied parts of that country students are taught a year of world history. One of my favorite parts of that year of world history was the discussions of Victorian military campaigns including the Boer Wars. >Dick Flory >> ---------- >> From: danielle moore >> Reply To: [email protected] >> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:12 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [BOER-WAR] What's the history? >> >> Hi all, >> Could someone explain in Laman's terms what the cause >> of the Boer War was and some of the things that went >> on. I was unfortunate enough to get a US public >> education so for the most part, all I was taught had >> to do with the US. I had never even heard of the Boer >> War until I started doing my geneology and had to ask >> my family about what they knew of it. Just a general >> over view would do nicely. >> Thanks, >> Danielle >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >> http://sbc.yahoo.com >> >> >> ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >> Have you used Tree Tops? >> The Free FAMILY TREE & WE'LL MEET AGAIN SERVICE >> http://freespace.virgin.net/tree.tops >> >> ============================== >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> >> >> > > >==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== >C J Genealogical Collections >Web Page http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

May I also commend for your enjoyment/information, my own: "KRUGER'S GOLD: A novel of the Anglo-Boer War." Entertaining, historically accurate, and even-handed to both sides. -- Sidney Allinson. www.xlibris.com/krugersgold.html

If I could add to Dick Flory's excellant comments, there are a number of good books currently available at reasonable prices that provide a very good background on this conflict. They include the recently published "Fuelling the Empire, South Africa's Gold and the Road to War" by John Stephens, Thomas Pakenham's standard general history "The Boer War" and "The Origins of the South African War; Joseph Chamberlain and the Diplomacy of Imperialism, 1895-1899" by Andrew Porter. Another interesting book on the British army in this period is "Scarlet into Khaki; The British Army on the Eve of the Boer War" by Col. James M.Grierson. This last book was originally published in 1902 but can be had in a more recent reissue. That's just to name a very few. If you can't find anything on the subject in your local book stores, you should consider Clarks of South Africa, which is an excellant, if rather pricey, book store that concentrates on this period of British colonial history. Their service is prompt and efficient, their online catalogue is extensive and they will ship anywhere in the world. While this sounds like an advertisement, it is not, I am just their occasional customer. I have no other connection to that store. I Hope this is of some help. Steve McHenry

Thanks Richard, I also had to take world history but it was a joke because it was taught by a football coach who really didn't care that much about it. I was also the teacher's pet and took advantage of that (not realizing of course that it was to my disadvantage). I sure wish that I had done more research other than what was covered in that class. Well, atlest I'm doing it now. Thanks again, Danielle --- "Flory, Richard" <[email protected]> wrote: > Gold was discovered in 1886 in the Transvaal which > was then primarily populated by the Boers (Dutch > settlers). Many outsiders (Uitlanders) came to the > Transvaal because of the gold and posed a threat to > the Boer rule. The British claimed that they > represented the Uitlanders and eventually provoked a > confrontation with the Boers tha led to the so > called First Boer War in 1880-1881 which the > British lost and later the Second Boer War of > 1899-1902. In the second war the Boers initially > besieged a number of British strongholds, including > Ladysmith, Mafeking and Kimberley and carried out > hit-and-run raids throughtout the Cape Colony, > Orange Free State and Transvaal. The British > eventually wore down the Boers and the war ended > with a British victory in 1902. > I don't know where you were educated in the US but > in most civilizied parts of that country students > are taught a year of world history. One of my > favorite parts of that year of world history was the > discussions of Victorian military campaigns > including the Boer Wars. > Dick Flory > > ---------- > > From: danielle moore > > Reply To: [email protected] > > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:12 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [BOER-WAR] What's the history? > > > > Hi all, > > Could someone explain in Laman's terms what the > cause > > of the Boer War was and some of the things that > went > > on. I was unfortunate enough to get a US public > > education so for the most part, all I was taught > had > > to do with the US. I had never even heard of the > Boer > > War until I started doing my geneology and had to > ask > > my family about what they knew of it. Just a > general > > over view would do nicely. > > Thanks, > > Danielle > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > > ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > > Have you used Tree Tops? > > The Free FAMILY TREE & WE'LL MEET AGAIN SERVICE > > http://freespace.virgin.net/tree.tops > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion > online genealogy records, go to: > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > C J Genealogical Collections > Web Page > http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion > online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com

Gold was discovered in 1886 in the Transvaal which was then primarily populated by the Boers (Dutch settlers). Many outsiders (Uitlanders) came to the Transvaal because of the gold and posed a threat to the Boer rule. The British claimed that they represented the Uitlanders and eventually provoked a confrontation with the Boers tha led to the so called First Boer War in 1880-1881 which the British lost and later the Second Boer War of 1899-1902. In the second war the Boers initially besieged a number of British strongholds, including Ladysmith, Mafeking and Kimberley and carried out hit-and-run raids throughtout the Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Transvaal. The British eventually wore down the Boers and the war ended with a British victory in 1902. I don't know where you were educated in the US but in most civilizied parts of that country students are taught a year of world history. One of my favorite parts of that year of world history was the discussions of Victorian military campaigns including the Boer Wars. Dick Flory > ---------- > From: danielle moore > Reply To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:12 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [BOER-WAR] What's the history? > > Hi all, > Could someone explain in Laman's terms what the cause > of the Boer War was and some of the things that went > on. I was unfortunate enough to get a US public > education so for the most part, all I was taught had > to do with the US. I had never even heard of the Boer > War until I started doing my geneology and had to ask > my family about what they knew of it. Just a general > over view would do nicely. > Thanks, > Danielle > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ==== BOER-WAR Mailing List ==== > Have you used Tree Tops? > The Free FAMILY TREE & WE'LL MEET AGAIN SERVICE > http://freespace.virgin.net/tree.tops > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

Hi all, Could someone explain in Laman's terms what the cause of the Boer War was and some of the things that went on. I was unfortunate enough to get a US public education so for the most part, all I was taught had to do with the US. I had never even heard of the Boer War until I started doing my geneology and had to ask my family about what they knew of it. Just a general over view would do nicely. Thanks, Danielle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com

Hello David, QSA clasps could be issued either for specific battles or sub-campaigns or for more general service. The clasps on the QSA of your g-g-f reflect general service in the areas specified. He served in the 7th Dragoon Guards. There was no conscription at that time and all soldiers were volunteers. Consequently they often had some say in the unit or at least type of unit they joined. A man who could ride a horse was a prime candidate for a cavalry regiment and he may have specifically asked to join 7DG or just asked to join the cavalry and was posted to 7DG because they needed more manpower at that time. Cavalry regiments had no specific recruitment area although infantry regiments did. Nevertheless a man who joined the infantry did not necesarily join his local regiment. There are plenty of examples, for instance, of Englishman in Scottish Highland Regiments. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: David Parkes <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 5:51 PM Subject: [BOER-WAR] Questions about GB Medals, the 7th Dragoons & Recruitment > Good morning. > > I own a set of medals from Great-Grandfather > who fought in the Anglo-Boer War [1899-1902] > and WWI. His "Queen's South Africa Medal" > has three clasps stating the following... > > Transvaal > Orange Free State > Cape Colony > > What does this signify, exactly? > > > Furthermore, the inscription on the rim states, > > 4013 Pvte T. Parkes 7 / Dn. Gds. > > I'm interpreting this inscription to mean that > he served in the 7th Dragoon Guards. Is this > an accurate assumption? > > > Finally, can someone explain how, back in > the 1890s, a young man would enter the 7th > Dragoons as opposed, to say, the 1st? Was it > based on your geographical location? Or did > you, as the entrant, have a choice? In short, > what determined which men were assigned to > each of the British army's regiments/divisions? > > Cheers, > David Parkes