Hi Folks from Geoff, I seem to be coming in at the tail-end of this as I dunno what's passed before! No criticism intended of anyone !, but it would help if all messages were sent via < BLAXALL-L@rootsweb.com >l, as that way we can all "earwig" as to what's going on and can chip in with added material as and when we spot something we recognise. OK Lecture over ! Now as to John Blaxall:- St Saviour Reg District(RD) lies "cheek by jowl" with the RDs of St Olave: Rotherhithe: St George( Southwark):, Newington: and Bermondsey, all in South East London. Which fact is to my embarrassment by reminding me that way back in May 1999, I undertook to explain why I believe Maria Blaxall (nee Hart) to be the Grandma rather than Ma to Frederick Luing. However, there is a pitfall when looking at the records. Firstly a quote:- "The Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 enabled parishes to combine together to form Poor Law Unions (PLUs). The composition of PLUs disregarded historic county boundaries and consequently places on those borders are often found in the Unions of neighbouring counties. This mid-1830s creation of PLUs was utilised contry-wide as the basis of districts both for the civil registration of births, marriages & deaths that came into force 1st July 1837, also for the 1841 and subsequent censuses." So far so good, BUT ! The Bermondsey and Rotherhithe RDs were both subsumed into St Olave RD w.e.f. 1st Jan 1870. Similarly the Newington and St George,( Southwark) RDs were subsumed into St Saviour RD w.e.f. 1st Jan 1870. So Bermondsey, Rotherhithe, Newington and St George, Southwark RDs "vanish" from the records on and after 1st Jan 1870. To try and avoid confusion, I tend to think of "Greater St Olave" and "Greater St Saviour" after 1st Jan 1870. All these RDs are shown to be in ancient Surrey, not ancient Kent as one would imagine. A guy called Ray Wiggins has produced a very helpful booklet on the St Catherine's House RDs, but he doesn't mention this subsuming. With all this in mind we can now consider :- "The Bermondsey (& thereabouts) Blaxalls". We have the following 17 known facts in chronological order:- Their provenance being :- 1= IGI. 2,3,5,6,7,8,9,12,13,14,15,17, =GRO Index. 4,10,11, = Birth/Death Certs. 16, = Info from Carol Matthews (nee Morris) descendent of Georgina. 1.John Blaxall m. 11Oct 1831 to Maria Hart Marylebone 2.Frederick James Blaxall b.r.Mar Q 1840 St Olave 3.Frederick Blaxall d.r.Jun Q 1841 Bermondsey 4.Luing Blaxall b. 29Nov 1844 son of John(Groom) St Olave 5.Sarah Maria Blaxall b.r.Dec Q 1847 St Olave 6.Mary Ann Blax... d.r.Dec Q 1855 Bermondsey 7.John Blaxall b.r.Jun Q 1857 Bermondsey 8.John Blaxall d.r.Mar Q 1861 Bermondsey 9.Harriette(sic) Blaxall m.r.Sep Q 1861 Bermondsey 10.Frederick Luing Blaxall d. 27Jul 1861 @ 7 months 1 Queens Arms Court St Saviour son of John Blaxall(Gen Lab dec.) 11.ditto d.r.29Jul 1861 by Maria Blaxall (present @ death) of 3 Ship & Mermaid Court Bermondsey 12.Mary Ann Blaxell m.r.Mar Q 1863 Bermondsey 13.Maria Blaxall d.r.Mar Q 1873 @ 63 years St Olave 14.Rose Ann Blaxall m.r.Jun Q 1877 St Olave 15.John Blaxall d.r.Jun Q 1891 @ 86 years St Olave 16.Georgina Blaxall m. 6 Dec 1896 to Frank Morris St Saviour 17.Emma Blaxall d.r.Sep Q 1906 @ 65 years St Olave 18. Over and above this, I picked up a gem from the 1861 Census(7th April) 1 Queen Anns Court Southwark (Christchurch) Ellen Blaxall, 25 years old Widow born Ireland Hawker of wash-leather and her three sons James, Lewin and John (age 3). For some strange reason I didn't get the ages of James & Lewin. So this John MUST be the John born 1857 ???? and it looks as if Ellen could spell Lewin correctly unlike her mother-in-law, Maria who "made her mark". I have the Birth & Death Certs mentioned in 4,10 &11 above. I now believe Georgina to be a "wild card" and co-incidental (although it is quite possible that she got married from an aunt's rather than her own home ?) but all the rest are surely the one family descended from John and Maria ? I keep promising myself I'll find the time to sit down and work out relative ages and dates, but so far time has beaten me ! Now we seem to have a descendant from this John perhaps they could take on the task from the info above ?? I sure hope it keeps in the tabular format. If it doesn't - the 17 "Known Facts" all start with a number. Good Luck someone out there !! Kind Regards to all & happy hunting ! Geoff Neil Ward wrote: > Hi Carlton > I just got this back from Janice - > > <Angela, I'm so excited about this because I believe you're correct about > the date being incorrect on the death certificate. I found a picture of > his headstone in the Palouse cemetery (where I originally got the year) and > it says 1857 not 58.....I can hardly wait to hear from you!!! You've been > a great help, and I can't thank you enough. > Janice > > > Well I think that it would definately be worth her going for the St.Saviour > John - if the date of birth is 14th February that would be great. It would > be interesting to find out who his parents were and whether they are in the > tree anywhere. > > I have suggested that she trys to find the Canadian marriage certificate for > John and Jessie Ferris to see what extra information if any is available - I > don't know if fathers names are given. > > I just checked the 1881 census and the 1857 Yarmouth John is living in > Norfolk so it is not him. > > Thanks for the information Carlton - I will pass it on to Janice and let you > know what turns up. > > We are all fine at the moment apart from the usual colds - I have been > snowed under with family tree information from lots of my branches - not > complaining although my notes mountain is getting bigger. > > I'll keep in touch > Best wishes > Angela > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carlton Blaxill <carlton@blax.demon.co.uk> > To: Neil Ward <nward@cableinet.co.uk> > Cc: <BLAXALL-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 5:26 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: blaxall search > > Hi Angela, > > Nice to hear from you, all the family are fine thanks, hope yours are > ok too. > > Janice seems to have a very particular date there, Feb 14 1858, > presumably early Canadian Death Certificates give the date of birth, > but is there no place (parish) within London ?? > > According to both my list of GRO births and the one Geoff did off > the Fiches there are no John's born in 1858 at all, the next John > going forward is John Blaxhall born in Hoxne Reg. District in Dec > Qtr 1860. The first John going backwards is a John Blaxell at > Yarmouth Dec Qtr 1857, and then its the John Blaxall at St. > Saviour in Jun Qtr 1857 (REF No. 1d 2 according to my records). > > So either he wasn't registered, we've missed him from the index > (unlikely now as Geoff has done an independant search too), he is > indexed under a Black..... or Blacs... variant spelling or if the Feb > 14 1858 date is baptism rather than birth then it could be the John > at St. Saviour. (I think St. Saviour is London, can Geoff confirm.) > > This one could be bit tricky to be sure it is the correct John. The > 1861 and 1871 census would be most helpful, but with no place > (parish) of birth to look where would you start ?? I suppose if the > birth cert. says Feb 14th then it is simply the death certificate 1 > year out and he was 81 rather than 80, suppose its worth the £7.50 > to find out !! > > I think Janice really needs to find some other pieces of the 'jigsaw' > from the Canada side (e.g. transportation details (shipping lists > etc.) or apprenticeship indentures that may list his parents). > > Sorry I can't be much help on this one. > > Carlton. > > On 11 Oct 99, at 8:23, Neil Ward wrote: > > > Hi Carlton > > > > I have just got this email from Janice in USA who had Blaxalls in her > > tree. The Scottish connection turned out to be a bit of a dead end as his > > marriage took place out in Canada. > > > > I said I would help her track down a birth certificate for John Blaxall I > > know you said that you had a GRO ref to a John in 1857 St.Saviours ( is > > that London ?) Have you got any possible ref. to the John below birth year > > given as 1858 - but that could be wrong - his wife died before him. > > > > Not to worry if not I'll try and track one down. > > > > Janice's mother is coming over next year - it would be nice if we can link > > her up before she gets over here !! > > > > Hope all the family are well > > > > All the best > > Angela > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Greg Noble <derekn@gte.net> > > To: <Angela <nward@cableinet.co.uk> > > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 11:22 PM > > Subject: blaxall search > > > > > > > Hi Angela, I have some very good news...........I got my hands on my > > > great grandfather's (John Blaxall) death certificate, and it seems that > > > he was born in London England on Feb. 14, 1858 , died on April 23, 1938. > > > It said he'd been in the US for 64 yrs, and was 80 yrs old so he came to > > > Canada when he was 16 in 1874. Could this possibly help your friend > > > Carlton give us any additional info? I'd like to get a birth certificate > > > that would > > name > > > his parents. Maybe my mother can do some work when she goes over in > > > June. Take care now,....Hope everything is well for you. > > > > > > talk to you soon, > > > Janice > > > > >