When I was in the service, I taught Combat Survival, I also was a weatherman at first, and a photographer, in my later career I built space suits and worked on spy planes. I have a wide experience over 16 years of working closely with all levels of the Military. I have met and debriefed many of the returning POWs from Vietnam, I knew all three who were shot-down and captured ot evaded in the Gulf war, and later. They all were pilots in squadrons I was also in at the same time, although when they got shot down, I was already out. I have personal time in Grenada, Panama, and the middle east. There was the Iran Hostage rescue, which ended tragically in a sandstorm. I got out in 1990, just before Gulf War I. My brother fought in that conflict, and has his purple heart, and a small vet's check every month. I have my small disability check as well. We disabled veterans, with service connected injuries, live our lives coping with the fact that we gave a small part to what we believed in, and almost all of us would willingly put on a uniform, and continue. We all know those who went out, did their jobs, and didn't return. We and they know the risks, accept them as a part of the job, and deal daily, with the knowledge that we could very well be a statistic. Our families dealt with fear and uncertainty when we were gone. My parents KNEW that if an operation was on, and I was out of contact, that I was close to the activity, and they worried. Often I wasn't allowed t tell them I was going to be gone for the next 3, 6 or 18 months, and that IF they heard from me it would be a short generic call. They understood that of times the job would put me in a "black" location, with a deniable job, and if I didn't come back, a mystery that may never be solved. Many of our military have these uncertainties even in "peace." We are always doing job, or practicing for it, and training for all anticipated probable situations, it was normal to NOT know if it was real or training, so we treated it all as real. Our servicemen are doing these things and more, as time goes on the mission changes, today they are just as much ambassadors as soldiers, sailors and airmen. The military has become not only a offensive/defensive force, but the US identity is on their shoulders. The world sees TWO things that represent the USA, TV, and our military. They also see our tourists, or bands and entertainers, and news about us written by those who LIKE us and those who despise us. Our military has given up their civil rights when they sign on, and take that oath. Even the Bill of Tights are suspended and modified. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is the replacement, and believe me it does protect the military member ALMOST the same as the Bill of Rights. With modifications, detailed additional crimes and suspension of "double Jeopardy". If a military member commits a civil offense he is liable to the civil authorities, THEN after they are done, the Military tries him/her again. There is also "Non Judicial punishment", known as Article 15. A military member can be offered Article 15 in lieu of a courts marshal. In Article 15, punishments and confinement, and "extra duties" can be levied, read "extra duties" as LABOR as in "Hard". Article 15 can cost rank, fines, reductions in pay, and loss of status as an Non-Commissioned Officer. Agreeing to accept Article 15 punishment, does not admit guilt, but believe me if it is offered, you take it, guilty or not. You can rebut it, and explain by letter mitigation, but if you are on charges, you have little chance of talking your way out of it. Article 15 may be seen as the military version of a MISDEMEANOR. Just try to consider that the people that are protecting your rights and freedoms are doing it under LESS freedoms than you enjoy. They can be ORDERED to speak against themselves, everything is searchable and a slip of the tongue can cost a lot of hardship. Military life isn't easy, but it has rewards too. The pride of being one of the most respected in the world, the knowledge that you have the best available equipment, and support structure, and the ideals of a country that believes in protecting the freedoms of even non citizens. AND you get a grand tour of all the BEST tourist spots....just look out the port hole and lean a little to the right. -- Jeffery Scism, http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/ International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists Links to my Homepages: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~scismfam/ Genealogy is the art of the living haunting the dead.... Heritage is the anchor in the sea of life, holding us steady, giving us a standard to live up to or beyond, a compass for our course, and a place to call home.

Dear Jeff, I have a brother in law who went on at least one, if not more of those denyable assignments to Cambodia. He knew that noone was expected to make it out alive. He was very young, he had lied about his age. Fortunately they did check the pickup point and he and one other guy had made it. He carries a heavy burden of survivor guilt. His best friends were killed all around him. Thankyou for sharing, Pamela Jeff wrote: > > When I was in the service, I taught Combat Survival, I also was a > weatherman at first, and a photographer, in my later career I built > space suits and worked on spy planes. I have a wide experience over 16 > years of working closely with all levels of the Military. > > I have met and debriefed many of the returning POWs from Vietnam, I knew > all three who were shot-down and captured ot evaded in the Gulf war, > and later. They all were pilots in squadrons I was also in at the same > time, although when they got shot down, I was already out. > > I have personal time in Grenada, Panama, and the middle east. > > There was the Iran Hostage rescue, which ended tragically in a > sandstorm. > > I got out in 1990, just before Gulf War I. My brother fought in that > conflict, and has his purple heart, and a small vet's check every month. > I have my small disability check as well. >

Jeff, in some circles you are so very honored. At the pow wows we attend, the honor guard comes out and at grand entry, the men who served in the military are in fatigues with their medals and have rifles they shoot off with a song and the drums playing and the american flag displayed. The song is indian song and indian sung and very powerful. The guns of course shoot blanks but with the beat of the drum, the men in fatigues dancing and the singers with their ancient voices is more than I can describe. These men are thanked and a prayer is lifted for ALL of our soldiers and all brances of the military. This is to honor ALL veterans and current military. When a young person joins the service, he is brought before all and honored for his or her choice , we should all do this. It is a warriors honor and brings tears to my eyes everytime. I wanted you to know that in some circles you are very much appreciated. Evie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff" <Scismgenie@adelphia.net> To: <BLACKSHEEP-CHAT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:58 PM Subject: [BSChat] your freedoms and who is protecting them. > When I was in the service, I taught Combat Survival, I also was a > weatherman at first, and a photographer, in my later career I built > space suits and worked on spy planes. I have a wide experience over 16 > years of working closely with all levels of the Military. > > I have met and debriefed many of the returning POWs from Vietnam, I knew > all three who were shot-down and captured ot evaded in the Gulf war, > and later. They all were pilots in squadrons I was also in at the same > time, although when they got shot down, I was already out. > > I have personal time in Grenada, Panama, and the middle east. > > There was the Iran Hostage rescue, which ended tragically in a > sandstorm. > > I got out in 1990, just before Gulf War I. My brother fought in that > conflict, and has his purple heart, and a small vet's check every month. > I have my small disability check as well. > > We disabled veterans, with service connected injuries, live our lives > coping with the fact that we gave a small part to what we believed in, > and almost all of us would willingly put on a uniform, and continue. > We all know those who went out, did their jobs, and didn't return. We > and they know the risks, accept them as a part of the job, and deal > daily, with the knowledge that we could very well be a statistic. Our > families dealt with fear and uncertainty when we were gone. > > My parents KNEW that if an operation was on, and I was out of contact, > that I was close to the activity, and they worried. > > Often I wasn't allowed t tell them I was going to be gone for the next > 3, 6 or 18 months, and that IF they heard from me it would be a short > generic call. They understood that of times the job would put me in a > "black" location, with a deniable job, and if I didn't come back, a > mystery that may never be solved. > > Many of our military have these uncertainties even in "peace." We are > always doing job, or practicing for it, and training for all > anticipated probable situations, it was normal to NOT know if it was > real or training, so we treated it all as real. > > Our servicemen are doing these things and more, as time goes on the > mission changes, today they are just as much ambassadors as soldiers, > sailors and airmen. The military has become not only a > offensive/defensive force, but the US identity is on their shoulders. > The world sees TWO things that represent the USA, TV, and our military. > They also see our tourists, or bands and entertainers, and news about us > written by those who LIKE us and those who despise us. > > Our military has given up their civil rights when they sign on, and take > that oath. Even the Bill of Tights are suspended and modified. The > Uniform Code of Military Justice is the replacement, and believe me > it does protect the military member ALMOST the same as the Bill of > Rights. With modifications, detailed additional crimes and suspension > of "double Jeopardy". If a military member commits a civil offense he is > liable to the civil authorities, THEN after they are done, the Military > tries him/her again. There is also "Non Judicial punishment", known as > Article 15. > > A military member can be offered Article 15 in lieu of a courts marshal. > In Article 15, punishments and confinement, and "extra duties" can be > levied, read "extra duties" as LABOR as in "Hard". Article 15 can cost > rank, fines, reductions in pay, and loss of status as an > Non-Commissioned Officer. Agreeing to accept Article 15 punishment, > does not admit guilt, but believe me if it is offered, you take it, > guilty or not. You can rebut it, and explain by letter mitigation, > but if you are on charges, you have little chance of talking your way > out of it. Article 15 may be seen as the military version of a > MISDEMEANOR. > > Just try to consider that the people that are protecting your rights and > freedoms are doing it under LESS freedoms than you enjoy. They can be > ORDERED to speak against themselves, everything is searchable and a slip > of the tongue can cost a lot of hardship. > > Military life isn't easy, but it has rewards too. The pride of being one > of the most respected in the world, the knowledge that you have the > best available equipment, and support structure, and the ideals of a > country that believes in protecting the freedoms of even non citizens. > > AND you get a grand tour of all the BEST tourist spots....just look out > the port hole and lean a little to the right. > > > -- > > > > Jeffery Scism, > http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/ > International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists > > Links to my Homepages: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~scismfam/ > > Genealogy is the art of the living haunting the dead.... > > Heritage is the anchor in the sea of life, > holding us steady, giving us a standard to live up to or beyond, > a compass for our course, and a place to call home. > > > ==== BLACKSHEEP-CHAT Mailing List ==== > Unsubscribe from the list: > Mailto:Blacksheep-Chat-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsub scribe > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Oh Evie, that is so-o cool! Pamela shadlock wrote: > > Jeff, in some circles you are so very honored. > At the pow wows we attend, the honor guard comes out and at grand entry, the > men who served in the military are in fatigues with their medals and have > rifles they shoot off with a song and the drums playing and the american > flag displayed. The song is indian song and indian sung and very powerful. > The guns of course shoot blanks but with the beat of the drum, the men in > fatigues dancing and the singers with their ancient voices is more than I > can describe. These men are thanked and a prayer is lifted for ALL of our > soldiers and all brances of the military. > This is to honor ALL veterans and current military. > When a young person joins the service, he is brought before all and honored > for his or her choice , we should all do this. > It is a warriors honor and brings tears to my eyes everytime. > I wanted you to know that in some circles you are very much appreciated. > Evie >

I have seen this several times myself. Never ceases to move me. I love to see the veterans enter the ring. They are honored at every Pow Wow. I will always support our troops. I will not support this man in office and hope most can see the difference. I am very much against this war, but will be there for our troops. Ok, I will go back into lurk mode. Rhonda IBSSG ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadlock" <shadlock@brightok.net> ] your freedoms and who is protecting them. > > > Jeff, in some circles you are so very honored. > At the pow wows we attend, the honor guard comes out and at grand entry, the > men who served in the military are in fatigues with their medals and have > rifles they shoot off with a song and the drums playing and the american > flag displayed. The song is indian song and indian sung and very powerful. > The guns of course shoot blanks but with the beat of

I am very grateful for your service, for your protection and for your explaining to the list some of the duties, obligations,etc. a person in the service of our country must deal with. My family has been extremely fortunate to have our World War II volunteers return to us. All served in the European Theatre.

I agree with evry word Jeff said. As a former USAF SAC pilot for eight years in the 60's I can say that every serviceman I knew was totally dedicated to the military mission they supported and it is the same with our troops today. To give you an idea of the extent that the military must go to defend us consider my experience. This was during the height of the cold war "non-conflict" when electronic reconnasiance aircraft were frequently shot down and their crews never to be heard of again and the 'Cuban" missile crises. Many of our Emergency War Operations missions were to heavily defended targets for which we only had enough fuel to reach plus 30 minutes at best. If we survived the departure from the US and the penetration of the communist border and the defenses around the target to deliver the weapon we were to bail out in a "safe" area and wait 'til the end of the war for rescue. We all knew that these were a suicide missions, but that was what was required to protect this country. Thank the Lord we never had to take that step to nuclear war. Now, can we wait for Hussain to die or for his country to rise up and overthrow him and his cohorts? The answer is yes, if all we had to defend against is some long range bombers, which he doesn't have, or nuclear wepons which he probably doesn't have yet, and if he contented himself with just dominating his country only. But he does have biological and chemical weapons which can be distributed by a single covert person who might be your next door neighbor who's been there for 20 years. And he has demonstrated a proven willingness to export and support terrorism outside Iraq. So we can't wait him out. That's why, Pamela, that the rights of privacy have been reduced. We somehow have to find these people as well as get rid of the financial and technical support for them, of which the largest is Hussain and Iraq. I've lived under the military justice system and never felt threatened by it as I didn't have anything to hide. I feel that it is a small trade off for continued existance for me, my family and my country. Do I feel that our leaders are not truthful or trustworthy? I am like President Reagan who said about the Soviets, "Trust but verify". Because of that belief, I challenge the truthfulness of every politician who claims to be anti-war now but who said nothing about Clinton's bombings in Kosovo, Serbia and Somalia. Where were these hypocritical politicians then. Did they attack President Clinton and demand that our actions be "legalized" by the oxymoronic United Nations? They didn't say a damn word and that includes the peanut man and Clinton himself. I'll say it again and someone will probably accuse me of flaming again but it's a fact. Any Democrat politician who is speaking out against the war after being silent in the 90's attacks or after silence in the congress when voting on the authorization it gave the President to take this action, is using the war as a way to gain power for the Democrats at the expense of the security of the citizens of the United States. I respect every person who sincerely believes that that the war is wrong for their own reasons, but I reject self serving politicians and actors using their bully pulpit for their own ambitions. Actors are trained to deceive you as part of their professon and the best win awards for it. As a result, they are not able to convince me that they really believe what they are saying, as they could be saying it for career advancement in liberal dominated Hollywood. Further they take their misplaced recognition for the admirable characters they play and use it to try to convince people that what they're saying is the only way. Michael Sheen, who plays the president in West Wing carries this to the extreme. He really must think he is the president. Charlton Heston thought he was God after all the biblical roles he played. I also want to compliment everyone for your considerate, measured responses about the war so far. I am proud to be a part of this fine group of caring, thoughtful geneolgists. Ron IBSSG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff" <Scismgenie@adelphia.net> To: <BLACKSHEEP-CHAT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:58 PM Subject: [BSChat] your freedoms and who is protecting them. > When I was in the service, I taught Combat Survival, I also was a > weatherman at first, and a photographer, in my later career I built > space suits and worked on spy planes. I have a wide experience over 16 > years of working closely with all levels of the Military. > > I have met and debriefed many of the returning POWs from Vietnam, I knew > all three who were shot-down and captured ot evaded in the Gulf war, > and later. They all were pilots in squadrons I was also in at the same > time, although when they got shot down, I was already out. > > I have personal time in Grenada, Panama, and the middle east. > > There was the Iran Hostage rescue, which ended tragically in a > sandstorm. > > I got out in 1990, just before Gulf War I. My brother fought in that > conflict, and has his purple heart, and a small vet's check every month. > I have my small disability check as well. > > We disabled veterans, with service connected injuries, live our lives > coping with the fact that we gave a small part to what we believed in, > and almost all of us would willingly put on a uniform, and continue. > We all know those who went out, did their jobs, and didn't return. We > and they know the risks, accept them as a part of the job, and deal > daily, with the knowledge that we could very well be a statistic. Our > families dealt with fear and uncertainty when we were gone. > > My parents KNEW that if an operation was on, and I was out of contact, > that I was close to the activity, and they worried. > > Often I wasn't allowed t tell them I was going to be gone for the next > 3, 6 or 18 months, and that IF they heard from me it would be a short > generic call. They understood that of times the job would put me in a > "black" location, with a deniable job, and if I didn't come back, a > mystery that may never be solved. > > Many of our military have these uncertainties even in "peace." We are > always doing job, or practicing for it, and training for all > anticipated probable situations, it was normal to NOT know if it was > real or training, so we treated it all as real. > > Our servicemen are doing these things and more, as time goes on the > mission changes, today they are just as much ambassadors as soldiers, > sailors and airmen. The military has become not only a > offensive/defensive force, but the US identity is on their shoulders. > The world sees TWO things that represent the USA, TV, and our military. > They also see our tourists, or bands and entertainers, and news about us > written by those who LIKE us and those who despise us. > > Our military has given up their civil rights when they sign on, and take > that oath. Even the Bill of Tights are suspended and modified. The > Uniform Code of Military Justice is the replacement, and believe me > it does protect the military member ALMOST the same as the Bill of > Rights. With modifications, detailed additional crimes and suspension > of "double Jeopardy". If a military member commits a civil offense he is > liable to the civil authorities, THEN after they are done, the Military > tries him/her again. There is also "Non Judicial punishment", known as > Article 15. > > A military member can be offered Article 15 in lieu of a courts marshal. > In Article 15, punishments and confinement, and "extra duties" can be > levied, read "extra duties" as LABOR as in "Hard". Article 15 can cost > rank, fines, reductions in pay, and loss of status as an > Non-Commissioned Officer. Agreeing to accept Article 15 punishment, > does not admit guilt, but believe me if it is offered, you take it, > guilty or not. You can rebut it, and explain by letter mitigation, > but if you are on charges, you have little chance of talking your way > out of it. Article 15 may be seen as the military version of a > MISDEMEANOR. > > Just try to consider that the people that are protecting your rights and > freedoms are doing it under LESS freedoms than you enjoy. They can be > ORDERED to speak against themselves, everything is searchable and a slip > of the tongue can cost a lot of hardship. > > Military life isn't easy, but it has rewards too. The pride of being one > of the most respected in the world, the knowledge that you have the > best available equipment, and support structure, and the ideals of a > country that believes in protecting the freedoms of even non citizens. > > AND you get a grand tour of all the BEST tourist spots....just look out > the port hole and lean a little to the right. > > > -- > > > > Jeffery Scism, > http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/ > International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists > > Links to my Homepages: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~scismfam/ > > Genealogy is the art of the living haunting the dead.... > > Heritage is the anchor in the sea of life, > holding us steady, giving us a standard to live up to or beyond, > a compass for our course, and a place to call home. > > > ==== BLACKSHEEP-CHAT Mailing List ==== > Unsubscribe from the list: > Mailto:Blacksheep-Chat-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsub scribe > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >