You might notice that I am sharing my posts with two lists when I think they are relevant to both groups. I know that there are subscribers on both groups who don't want to emphasize the connection. But if it seems to me that there would be subscribers on both the Black Dutch and the Melungeon list who would want to have the opportunity to consider the ideas, then I will post to both until told to stop by one or the other. So . . .at some peril, here's my response to the post below: It does not make sense that there was any kind of conscious, deliberate building of a Melungeon or Black Dutch community. In fact, it is more likely that it was haphazard and unintentional, with relatively little contact between pockets of similarly composed communities. Think about it: they were trying to avoid mainstream people "outing" them. SO they would not have been sharing information about their actual heritage. Of course if they were in the same region with other families who were obviously (to them) Melungeon or Black Dutch--that is households that included people of mixed ancestry who appeared to be denying their multi-heritage, then perhaps they would have formed an alliance. Maybe they would have married together with each other and, over several generations, a local community would have developed where one Melungeon or Black Dutch household would have known 100 others. But there were families all over Appalachia and other parts of the Southeast (in particular)-- plus all the ones that moved West, etc. (in part to escape the prejudice of people who knew their roots)--and those families might well have known no other Melungeons or Black Dutch except the families of their own siblings or their parents' siblings' families. And thus, the secret was kept, in family after family. Around the country little pockets of closed-mouth Melungeons and Black Dutch grew -- eventually to separate through marriage, military, the search for good bottom land, better hunting, and to escape detection by nosy bigoted neighbors. And never to openly talk about the past--except through whispers until even the whispers were no longer heard. That is to say, there would have been a conscious effort by the older generation to stop including the children in the secret because to tell them would have increased risk to the family. And as the old ones died off, the children no doubt said what many of us have said: "Gee, I wish I'd asked Grandma more questions before she died." [Note: I asked Grandpa plenty of questions, so that I was as informed as he was about the Indian line. But the Melungeon discovery by my cousin on the other side of the family came as a total--but welcome--surprise. I'm pretty sure that either my grandparents knew nothing or the secretness of the information had been so deeply ingrained that they consciously decided to take it to the grave. It's too late to ask that question. My Dad now knows (from a Collins cousin in his generation) and--to my complete surprise and delight--he and my Mom are very excited about it and want to know everything they can, regardless of where it leads. Can you beat that? ] In some of our families the truth was reduced to a "family tradition" or myth which we might have heard from our grandparents, but which others would have denied because the denials were as strong or stronger than the tendency of the "myth" to resurface. But CERTAINLY [in response to Black Leopard's post, below] there were lots of isolated pockets of Melungeons, completely unrelated and unaware of other groups. What's more -- and I haven't seen this on any M-List, there must have been other prolific families -- besides Goins, Mullins, Collins, and those so often referred to on one of the Lists-- who migrated and married in with other names AS YET NOT DISCOVERED TO HAVE BEEN Melungeon and Black Dutch. And those still-secret lines may or may not have had the big families in their lines, but may have developed in the same ways completely independently -- just like the way scholars believe that fire, the wheel, and the recipe for making alcohol were each discovered independently many thousands of times before being successfully transmitted to the rest of the "society" of the ancients. And what makes this more than just a possibility, is the fact that each group was INTENSELY private and suspicious of outsiders, of questions, and of people who looked mainstream (i.e., fair-haired, light complected people, and government people particularly) -- though they might have wanted to coax some of them to marry in--because that would tend to make the next generation look more like the mainstream who they needed to conceal their heritage from. And, yes, I think it would have been JUST THAT DELIBERATE in some cases. I mean, where do you suppose this emphasis on blondes comes from? Why does even the African American community have a problem with the darker people being snubbed by the lighter ones? If you doubt my assessment, rent and try to endure [it's difficult to sit through] Spike Lee's film: "School Daze" about a black college and how the dark complected students [in Lee's film they are the "jigaboos"<<I apologize for this word ; it's Spike Lee's not mine] and the light-complected students [who Lee calls: "wannabees"] are at odds with each other. I mean, where does this kind of problem come from? REMEMBER THIS: Not all of the children who were the consequence of a mixed sexual union became Melungeon. Some stayed Indian, some stayed black, and, of course, some separated into their own transitional people, the Melungeons -- headed for white, in many cases. There are MANY, MANY Americans who self-identify as Black [think of Mariah Cary, for example], but who are obviously of the same kind of genetic makeup as Melungeons--if maybe a couple of generations later. That is, some mixed-blood people resist the urge to go mainstream. And we have to be proud of them for that. I have knew hundreds of Indians over the years in the Army. Lots of them looked "classically" Indian, but just as many "looked" Caucasian to me. One guy in the Army who had the Indian-sounding name "Falleaf" was blonde, with curly hair, and had blue eyes. In his case, he told me his mother was German. I have a good friend right now who is from a ranching, cowboy kind of family out here in California and Arizona, and he is a lanky 6'3", had dirty blond hair, and dark blue eyes. But he is Cherokee and has a BIA card thanks to his Grandmother who made sure his mother registered her kids. The point of those statements is to remind you that AT ANY POINT in a family's development, several or a singlet might have decided to "cross over" and become (or pass as) white. Others IN THE SAME FAMILY would not necessarily have done so . . . or, in all likelihood, COULD NOT have, because they did not inherit the same recessive or dominant genes that made them look sufficiently light to be able to pass. And , no doubt, there were many who decided, "Well, we're gonna do it anyway! Even if little Mary IS so dark. We'll just say that Grandpa Mergatroid was a Portuguese -- and make it clear that her big brothers will defend her against any talk to the contrary!" [Poor little Mary would have had a tough life, don't you think?] So, it must be true that many modern-day Melungeon and Black Dutch folk are the descendants of some brave (and lonely) soul who left his or her darker complected family and ventured out to try crossing over all alone. In those cases, they would have started their own little isolated group -- unless they lucked into an area where their folks knew some other folks who had already done it, and who would have welcomed them into the other crossed-over group. But THAT could only have happened early on, before the forced family policy of forgetting and denial had had its full impact . . . after which time they would NOT have welcomed a person with Indian or Black blood because by then they would probably have become some of the fiercest opponents of intermarriage in the community -- (1) as part of the cover, (2) in reaction to people accusing them of being part Indian or part-Black, and (3) to avoid the likely outcome of such unions: A child who would have the characteristics of both sides abandoned ancestors--requiring yet another generation of explanations for why that kid is so dark. And THAT, my cousins, is where I think that the majority of the Portuguese stories originate. And NOT in Portugal. [Though there are certainly Melungeon families with Portuguese blood--I'm not denying that ; I'm just saying that there are other, more likely explanations for most of our families.] [NOTE: The original message that I was responding to was from Black Leopard, who kindly agreed to let me re-post it, below.] -----Original Message----- From: B L <Blackeleoparde@webtv.net> To: Melungeon-L@rootsweb.com <Melungeon-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, September 15, 2000 5:08 AM Subject: [Melungeon] Parallel Lines . . . . Is it possible that there were other groups similar to the Melungeons who lived in the Appalachians at about the same time? Could there have been cultural and familial groups that were biracial or tri-racial that weren't really members of the better known Melungeon community? They would have the same or similar ethnic composition in some cases, but they were not a part of the familiar lines that include the familiar names associated with Melungeons. This may account for the fact that many Melungeons or similar people do not have the last names that are usually associated with Melungeons. It's just a thought. . . . .