I'm really interested in the Roanoke survivor stories, since one of my Virginia lines goes to a man who claimed to his dying day that he had come back to the Colony one day with some other boys after hunting to find the people gone. They made their way to a friendly band of Indians and essentially raised themselves among the Indians--being too old to fully assimilate. then, as other colonies took hold and grew, he came out of the tribal life a an adult and "appeared" there in the new colony with his story. Since even then most people assumed that the Lost Colony had been wiped out by violence or pestilence, his story wasn't universally accepted. My family materials are in my Mom's file drawers [they were in the attic, but she's been getting more and more interested! How about that?] -- but as I recall, this ancestor was named Dotson or Dodson--I'll correct when I get access to my files again. Does anyone else out there have a family legend that goes back to Roanoke? Curtis -----Original Message----- From: Kypacer@aol.com <Kypacer@aol.com> To: Melungeon-L@rootsweb.com <Melungeon-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, September 15, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: [Melungeon] Re: Keyauwee Indians >Regarding the Keyauwee Indians: this is from the American Indian book set, Salem Press, page 814: "By 1709, the Tutelo and five other tribes (Saponi, Ocaneechi, Keyauwee, Shakiori and Stuckanox) were estimated to total only 750 in population. For their own survival, this group of peoples gradually moved eastward, (the author had just mentioned the Indian communities on the Yadkin in N.C.) settling at Fort Christanna on the Meherrin River." (The place referred to was around present day Brunswick Co., Virginia.) >I also found references to the Keyauwee in the book by Pat Elder "Melungeons: Examining an Appalachian Legend", >Continuity Press, Blountville, Tennessee. >At page 156, she states that "The latest information states that the Lumbee are a combination of several extinct tribes," (then follows a list of tribes, which includes the Keyauwee and such others as the Congaree, Saponi, Tutelo and Occaneechi). At page 163, she says that John Lederer, a German who explored in 1670, said he had heard "of Roanoke-Colony survivors living among the Indians and made note of the Indian's beards...." >A footnote refers at one point in the passage to Lefler, Carolina History, page 7 and notes that it was unclear among which group these Indians were found. "Perhaps Aswell made this assumed connection when he said Melungeons were related to the bearded Keyauwee." more next post. Kay

You might notice that I am sharing my posts with two lists when I think they are relevant to both groups. I know that there are subscribers on both groups who don't want to emphasize the connection. But if it seems to me that there would be subscribers on both the Black Dutch and the Melungeon list who would want to have the opportunity to consider the ideas, then I will post to both until told to stop by one or the other. So . . .at some peril, here's my response to the post below: It does not make sense that there was any kind of conscious, deliberate building of a Melungeon or Black Dutch community. In fact, it is more likely that it was haphazard and unintentional, with relatively little contact between pockets of similarly composed communities. Think about it: they were trying to avoid mainstream people "outing" them. SO they would not have been sharing information about their actual heritage. Of course if they were in the same region with other families who were obviously (to them) Melungeon or Black Dutch--that is households that included people of mixed ancestry who appeared to be denying their multi-heritage, then perhaps they would have formed an alliance. Maybe they would have married together with each other and, over several generations, a local community would have developed where one Melungeon or Black Dutch household would have known 100 others. But there were families all over Appalachia and other parts of the Southeast (in particular)-- plus all the ones that moved West, etc. (in part to escape the prejudice of people who knew their roots)--and those families might well have known no other Melungeons or Black Dutch except the families of their own siblings or their parents' siblings' families. And thus, the secret was kept, in family after family. Around the country little pockets of closed-mouth Melungeons and Black Dutch grew -- eventually to separate through marriage, military, the search for good bottom land, better hunting, and to escape detection by nosy bigoted neighbors. And never to openly talk about the past--except through whispers until even the whispers were no longer heard. That is to say, there would have been a conscious effort by the older generation to stop including the children in the secret because to tell them would have increased risk to the family. And as the old ones died off, the children no doubt said what many of us have said: "Gee, I wish I'd asked Grandma more questions before she died." [Note: I asked Grandpa plenty of questions, so that I was as informed as he was about the Indian line. But the Melungeon discovery by my cousin on the other side of the family came as a total--but welcome--surprise. I'm pretty sure that either my grandparents knew nothing or the secretness of the information had been so deeply ingrained that they consciously decided to take it to the grave. It's too late to ask that question. My Dad now knows (from a Collins cousin in his generation) and--to my complete surprise and delight--he and my Mom are very excited about it and want to know everything they can, regardless of where it leads. Can you beat that? ] In some of our families the truth was reduced to a "family tradition" or myth which we might have heard from our grandparents, but which others would have denied because the denials were as strong or stronger than the tendency of the "myth" to resurface. But CERTAINLY [in response to Black Leopard's post, below] there were lots of isolated pockets of Melungeons, completely unrelated and unaware of other groups. What's more -- and I haven't seen this on any M-List, there must have been other prolific families -- besides Goins, Mullins, Collins, and those so often referred to on one of the Lists-- who migrated and married in with other names AS YET NOT DISCOVERED TO HAVE BEEN Melungeon and Black Dutch. And those still-secret lines may or may not have had the big families in their lines, but may have developed in the same ways completely independently -- just like the way scholars believe that fire, the wheel, and the recipe for making alcohol were each discovered independently many thousands of times before being successfully transmitted to the rest of the "society" of the ancients. And what makes this more than just a possibility, is the fact that each group was INTENSELY private and suspicious of outsiders, of questions, and of people who looked mainstream (i.e., fair-haired, light complected people, and government people particularly) -- though they might have wanted to coax some of them to marry in--because that would tend to make the next generation look more like the mainstream who they needed to conceal their heritage from. And, yes, I think it would have been JUST THAT DELIBERATE in some cases. I mean, where do you suppose this emphasis on blondes comes from? Why does even the African American community have a problem with the darker people being snubbed by the lighter ones? If you doubt my assessment, rent and try to endure [it's difficult to sit through] Spike Lee's film: "School Daze" about a black college and how the dark complected students [in Lee's film they are the "jigaboos"<<I apologize for this word ; it's Spike Lee's not mine] and the light-complected students [who Lee calls: "wannabees"] are at odds with each other. I mean, where does this kind of problem come from? REMEMBER THIS: Not all of the children who were the consequence of a mixed sexual union became Melungeon. Some stayed Indian, some stayed black, and, of course, some separated into their own transitional people, the Melungeons -- headed for white, in many cases. There are MANY, MANY Americans who self-identify as Black [think of Mariah Cary, for example], but who are obviously of the same kind of genetic makeup as Melungeons--if maybe a couple of generations later. That is, some mixed-blood people resist the urge to go mainstream. And we have to be proud of them for that. I have knew hundreds of Indians over the years in the Army. Lots of them looked "classically" Indian, but just as many "looked" Caucasian to me. One guy in the Army who had the Indian-sounding name "Falleaf" was blonde, with curly hair, and had blue eyes. In his case, he told me his mother was German. I have a good friend right now who is from a ranching, cowboy kind of family out here in California and Arizona, and he is a lanky 6'3", had dirty blond hair, and dark blue eyes. But he is Cherokee and has a BIA card thanks to his Grandmother who made sure his mother registered her kids. The point of those statements is to remind you that AT ANY POINT in a family's development, several or a singlet might have decided to "cross over" and become (or pass as) white. Others IN THE SAME FAMILY would not necessarily have done so . . . or, in all likelihood, COULD NOT have, because they did not inherit the same recessive or dominant genes that made them look sufficiently light to be able to pass. And , no doubt, there were many who decided, "Well, we're gonna do it anyway! Even if little Mary IS so dark. We'll just say that Grandpa Mergatroid was a Portuguese -- and make it clear that her big brothers will defend her against any talk to the contrary!" [Poor little Mary would have had a tough life, don't you think?] So, it must be true that many modern-day Melungeon and Black Dutch folk are the descendants of some brave (and lonely) soul who left his or her darker complected family and ventured out to try crossing over all alone. In those cases, they would have started their own little isolated group -- unless they lucked into an area where their folks knew some other folks who had already done it, and who would have welcomed them into the other crossed-over group. But THAT could only have happened early on, before the forced family policy of forgetting and denial had had its full impact . . . after which time they would NOT have welcomed a person with Indian or Black blood because by then they would probably have become some of the fiercest opponents of intermarriage in the community -- (1) as part of the cover, (2) in reaction to people accusing them of being part Indian or part-Black, and (3) to avoid the likely outcome of such unions: A child who would have the characteristics of both sides abandoned ancestors--requiring yet another generation of explanations for why that kid is so dark. And THAT, my cousins, is where I think that the majority of the Portuguese stories originate. And NOT in Portugal. [Though there are certainly Melungeon families with Portuguese blood--I'm not denying that ; I'm just saying that there are other, more likely explanations for most of our families.] [NOTE: The original message that I was responding to was from Black Leopard, who kindly agreed to let me re-post it, below.] -----Original Message----- From: B L <Blackeleoparde@webtv.net> To: Melungeon-L@rootsweb.com <Melungeon-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, September 15, 2000 5:08 AM Subject: [Melungeon] Parallel Lines . . . . Is it possible that there were other groups similar to the Melungeons who lived in the Appalachians at about the same time? Could there have been cultural and familial groups that were biracial or tri-racial that weren't really members of the better known Melungeon community? They would have the same or similar ethnic composition in some cases, but they were not a part of the familiar lines that include the familiar names associated with Melungeons. This may account for the fact that many Melungeons or similar people do not have the last names that are usually associated with Melungeons. It's just a thought. . . . .

ZANESVILLE, OHIO DIRECTORY, 1890-91 Located in central Ohio, the city of Zanesville is the county seat of Muskingum County. This database is a transcription of a city directory originally published in 1890. In addition to providing the residents' names, it provides their addresses and occupational information. The database includes more than 11,100 names, mostly heads of household. Source Information: Ancestry.com. "Zanesville, Ohio Directory, 1890-91." [database online] Provo, UT: Ancestry.com, 2000. Original Data: "Zanesville, OH, 1890-91." Zanesville, OH: N.H. Burch & Co., 1890. To search this database, go to http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/inddbs/5046.htm. This database is also included in the 1890 Census Reconstruction Project and can be searched through its main page at http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/census/1890sub/main.htm. ________________________ May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

Blessings, Deah Persimmon Graham Cracker Dessert 2 cups graham cracker crumbs 1 cup of powdered sugar 1 cup of pureed persimmon pulp 1/2 cup of coarsely chopped nuts about 1 3/4 cup miniature marshmallows (can add more or less depending on preference) Mix everything together, cover it, and put it in the refrigerator overnight. Serve with some whipped topping, or cream. May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

Persimmon Nut Bread 3 T. butter 1/4 cup honey 1 egg 1 cup persimmon pulp 1 1/2 cups whole wheat pastry flour 1/2 cup whole wheat bread flour 2 tsp. baking powder 1/2 tsp. baking soda 1/2 tsp. ginger 1/2 tsp. salt pinch of cloves 3/4 cup chopped nuts Cream the butter and honey together, beat in the eggs, then stir in the pulp. Sift dry ingredients together and add the nuts. Mix all this with the liquid ingredients, stirring carefully till just mixed. Pour into greased loaf pan and bake at 350 degrees, about 45 minutes or until done. May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

When a Raven Mocker finally dies, >> This is Why My Husband Stays watch over me when I am sick if he has to leave my bed side he has his cousin stand in for him, the sick and the dying in my family are never left alone, we have spirit watchers round the clock now mind you we never discuss this with the medical people, they would cart us of to the loony Ben, it need not be discussed, this has been handed down from generation to generation, May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

i once told a comanche chief i was part indian .he calmly asked which part.indian is of the spirit >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You Guyes are Great You Know What the Chief was a Sweet and Kind Person I am glad that you rememberd that it is very true and this is the way Most Native peoples Feel We are all a rainbow of Color and I am so Proud that you shared this with us when it gets right down to it it's the Children we Have to teach we must Talk about this so that they will see Our Archives and know that Some one wonted them to know, May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

Hay Every one I fine that I also will be Out of Comishion From 8 Central till 4 Central time I forgot, so every one Try to Help each other I will be home later Sat. Evening, Mike please try to be good, peek in every once in a while, ok Love ya Man, and I know I can Count on some other listers to drop a line or two as well, Hubby came in and made the grand anouncment that we were going to spend the day out and you bet I am going hehehehe, I will load up some stuff for you to check out Ok Woops you know what this means all the bosses are going to be out, May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

<A HREF="http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/ednkc001.html">Click here: Pocahantas - Kid Explorers</A> May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

<A HREF="http://content.lib.washington.edu/cgi-bin/htmlview.exe?CISOROOT=/loc&CIS OPTR=1577">Click here: Colville woman and small daughter, Colville Indian Reservation, Washington, ca. 1900-1910.</A> May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

<A HREF="http://content.lib.washington.edu/cgi-bin/htmlview.exe?CISOROOT=/loc&CIS OPTR=1373">Click here: Alaskan Indian woman posed in studio, Alaska, ca. 1903< /A> May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

<A HREF="http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/finalrolls/index.htm">Click here: Index to Final Rolls</A> This could Help I had two Nits Out of it May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

<A HREF="http://www.tolatsga.org/dela.html">Click here: Delaware</A> Bright Star Keep and read this carefully when you have the time it is very interesting, and it's about the people in your ancestry, and how it was in that time I found it enteresting in the part how the Lenape Indians love to chang ther names and how well they got along with the Dutch, Could this be where we first learn about the Black Dutch ? hmmmm I wonder, May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

Pennsylvania Villages (1682-1779): Adjouquay, Alamingo, Allaquippa (Alquippa), Alleghany, Assinisink (Munsee), Bald Eagle's Nest, Big Island, Black Leg's, Brandywine, Catawaweshink, Cattawisa (Lappapitton's Town), Chinklacamoose (Seneca), Clistowacka, Conemaugh, Custaloga's Town (1), Frankstown, Hickorytown (Munsee-Seneca), Hociundoquen, Hogstown, Jacob's Cabins, Jedakne (Iroquois), John's Town (Munsee), Kalbauvane, Kanhanghton, Katamoonchink, Kickenapawling (Quemahoning) (Iroquois), Kindassowa, King Beaver's Town (Shinga's Old Town), Kishakoquilla (2), Kiskemeneco, Kiskiminetas, Kittaning (Attigu») (Iroquois), Kushkuski (Kuskuski) (Iroquois), Lawunkhannek (Seneca), Logstown (Chininqu») (Shawnee-Mingo), Loyalhanning (Iroquois), Macharienkonck (Munsee), Macocks, Mahusquechikoken (Munsee-Seneca), Meniolagomeka, Nescopeck (Iroquois), Nockamixon, Nutimy's Town (Shawnee- Mahican), Ostonwackin (Cayuga-Oneida), Paxtang (Shawnee), Pematuning, Playwickey, Pohkopophunk, Punxsutawny (Gnat Town), Queenashawakee, Queonemysing, Sawcunk (Saukunk) (Shawnee-Mingo), Schipston, Seven Houses, Sewickley (Shawnee-Mingo), Shamokin (Shawnee-Iroquois-Tutelo), Shannopin, Shenango (3) (Iroquois), Sheshequin (Seneca), Shinga's Town (1), Teedyuskung, Tioga (Munsee-Nanticoke-Mahican-Saponi-Tutelo), Tulpehocken, Tunkannock, Venango (Seneca-Shawnee-Wyandot-Ottawa), Walagsmika, Wekeeponall (Queen Esther's Town), Welagameka, Wickquacoingh (Wico), Wilawane, Wyalusing (Munsee-Iroquois), and Wyoming (Munsee-Iroquois-Shawnee-Mahican-Nanticoke May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

<A HREF="http://www.web-savvy.com/river/Schuylkill/last.html#Last Lenape">Cli ck here: Last</A> Bright Star this is a sight that I ran into while looking for your Photos May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

This Morning I have receved this It looks funny to me so I won't open it has any one out there recived this I got it so far 5 times >ABDE3 TIME DATED NOTIFICATION READ ASAP < May your Waters Run Gentle, With Love Care And Concern, Alece, Little Hawk,

In a message dated 9/15/00 12:59:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, friend9@pacbell.net writes: << Melungeons and Black Dutch: I don't know if this is legit . . . but if it is, you should know it. Curtis . . . . . >> Thank You Curtis, for the warning. Bright Star

Don't forget the NATIVE AMERICAN (all tribes, all states) chat Friday from 10-12 pm Eastern; 9-11 pm Central; 8-10 pm Mt.; 7-9 pm Pacific http://huntsville.about.com/mpchat.htm Always an enlightening experience! If you have never been to a chat room and need step-by-step instructions, write and I'll send them to you. Or if you'd like to be on the Genealogy Chat mailing list, let me know. If you can't make the chat, please be sure and stop by the forum to post your surname queries and research questions: http://about.delphi.com/ab-huntsville Jean Brandau huntsville2@earthlink.net

Name finder: http://nedgen.netsystem.nl/slideshow2.html Acadian / French Canadian surnames [maybe to help eliminate a question of name origin]: http://www.cyber-surfer.com/DATABASE/surnames.htm A couple of useful Portuguese surname sites: http://dholmes.com/caboverd.html http://www.dholmes.com/master-l.html Curtis

Melungeons and Black Dutch: I don't know if this is legit . . . but if it is, you should know it. Curtis . . . . . An acquaintance of an old elementary school friend of mine got a call from an individual identifying himself as an AT&T Service technician who said he was conducting a test on his telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test this guy should touch nine (9), zero (0), the pound sign (#) and then hang up. Luckily, he was suspicious and refused. Upon contacting the telephone company, he was informed that by pushing 90#, you give the requesting individual full access to your telephone line, which allows them to place long distance telephone calls billed to your home phone number. He was further informed that this scam has been originating from many of the local jails/prisons. [I have some doubts about that part since Prisons and most jails require that inmates make collect calls. On the other hand, once the collect call is accepted, the pair can do conference calls and "call-forwarding" to reach other parties ---- so I suppose it is possible]. He supposedly verified the information about the 90# with UCB telecomm, Pacific Bell, MCI, Bell Atlantic, GTE and NYNEX. I don't know how to verify it. But, in any case, I don't intend to press 90# for ANYONE. The GTE Security Department requested that the guy share this information.