Hi Jerry I'm a slow typer so some of this has been covered already by Stephen, but you can have it in full anyway Lets backtrack to 1861 where RG9/1010 folio 48B High St Houghton Regis Thomas Robinson head marr 47 Ann Robinson wife 42 Mary Robinson 18 unm Susan Robinson dau 13 Sarah Robinson 11 William Evans son in law marr 30 Elizabeth Evans dau 20 All born Houghton Regis In 1871 as you have found Thomas 56 b Toddington, Ann wife 53, Sarah dau unmarr 22, Alphonso grandson 2; Lillie granddau 1; Arthur grandson 2mths Theres a birth/baptism on the IGI of Alphony Robinson in 1869 at Houghton Regis, son of Susannah Robinson. Theres a marriage of Susannah Robinson 32 to Matthew Bliss 25 in 1881 at Houghton Regis. But theres no Alphonso or Lillie with them in 1881 Theres a marriage of Sarah Robinson to William Allen in 1872 in Houghton Regis. They appear in 1881 in Houghton Regis with Arthur Allen age 10. He is probably Arthur Robinson from the 1871. Again though no sign of Lillie. Given the track record I suspect that Lillie could be the illegitimate dau of one or other of Susannah or Sarah, rather than of a son of Thomas and Ann. But I cant find her in 1881 either. Perhaps she was already in service. In 1891 shes married to George Fowler in Houghton Regis (I see you know this as you submitted a correction to the name which was mistranscribed as Forder) Theres a birth of Lilly Robinson in Luton registration district, which includes Houghton Regis, in Sept 1869 vol 3b page 413, which fits with an age of 1 in Apr 1871. Regards David Sandford Jeremy-jsandfo1 <Jerry.Sandford@motorola.com> a écrit : Hi All, Am seeking someone, with a vested interest perhaps, who may be able to help me with another problem. I am trying to confirm the paternal line for my Gt Grandmother, one Lily (Lillie)Robinson, who later married George Fowler, Both of Houghton Regis, I believe. My "Assumed" (Lillie) first appears on the scene, in the 1871 Census for Houghton Regis, as the G-Daughter of Thomas Robinson. Born c1870, in Houghton. She then disappears again, until she appears on my Grandmother's (Edith Fowler) Birth certificate 5 Apr 1892 (now Lily), (I have the original copy given to them by the registrar, so I at least know that is accurate!!) I have searched all on-line records I can find, but try as I may, I can not located her before or after 1871. No Birth Record, residence, possible Father, etc. Neither can I locate any record of her marriage to George Fowler Thomas's only listed son in the 1851, is George (Robinson), and although he seems to survive and marry, he does not appear to be Lily's father. But was there another son ?? (41 census perhaps) ?. The census records for this family are a bit convoluted, and I know for a fact there are transcription errors, on "Ancestry" at least. I very vaguely remember my "Great Grandma Fowler", from my childhood and I have a photo, so I know she existed........BUT where did she come from ??? I know how some of you guys love to unravel these problems, so any information, ideas, or even wild guesses appreciated. Very Best Regards Jerry Sandford Senior Technical Training Instructor Technical Training Network Services and Applications Management Telephone: ++44(0)1793 568361 Email: Jerry.Sandford@Motorola.com Http://www.motorola.com/networksupport ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== To do a search of the Bedford Archives go to http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl Enter Bedford in the box --------------------------------- Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.Téléchargez la version beta.
Thanks David, and thanks for giving Rootschat that well-earned 'plug'! The Rootschatters are amazing people [and have certainly saved me a lot of foot slog]! For all census info and more, please see: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,197.0.html That is just Bedfordshire but if you go to top of screen you can find the other counties lists. Happy hunting cathy
In message <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAqCcbTrYelk+wu sksPhRvIcKAAAAQAAAApLlcmnthQ0KLo/Abs6SFMQEAAAAA@edp.fastfreenet.com>, "Martin Edwards (EDP)" <martin@edp.fastfreenet.com> writes >Thought I should join in here. The war memorials have been fairly well >covered as had been said but there are thousands out there. I have around >650+ memorials to put on-line at present with 700 edits to do. Hertfordshire >is gradually building and so is Buckinghamshire, anybody wishing to >volunteer to help then please contact me. The whole of the Buckinghamshire War Memorials (visible to naked eye) have been surveyed, transcribed and published some years ago, thanks to the sterling work of the Quick family. They are available from Bucks GS (see website www.bucksgs.org.uk) More recently, I have collected lists of Aylesbury men serving in 1916 and the former pupils of High Wycombe Grammar School serving in 1916 (every regiment etc detailed). Some local residents are beginning to do the in-depth studies on the persons named, with their family background and career details. Stone has been completed, I think, and Nick Burch is working on Haddenham now. -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society
I've tried a similar thing here in Australia. But the problem is there is no central repository. Sites have been started by organisations like RSL, Legacy, local councils, bicentennial committees, historical societies etc but fallen by the wayside. I'm sure all the names on every single monument have been transcribed countless time over the last 60 - 100 years. But all that work has come to nought. Perhaps we need something like Rootsweb's World Connect Project where people could submit data from their local memorials. Or perhaps some bright entrepreneur could come up with an interactive site which collects the data from the memorials and then allows descendants to add stories, photos and contact details. Of course, accuracy, sensitivities and control would need to be addressed. Peter in Sydney
In message <0bbd01c627bc$aec29340$f8e6adcb@ianfisk>, Ian Fisk <fiski@ihug.co.nz> writes >Chris, > >The exact instructions to the enumerators were: >"Write the age of every person under 15 years as is is stated to you. >For persons aged 15 years upwards, write the lowest of the term of 5 >years within which the age is. >Thus -- For Persons aged 15 years and under 20 write 15 | 35 >years and under 40 write 35 | 55 years and under 60 write 55 > 20 years and under 25 write 20 | 40 years and >under 45 write 40 | 60 years and under 65 write 60 > 25 years and under 30 write 25 | 45 years and >under 50 write 45 | 65 years and under 70 write 65 > 30 years and under 35 write 30 | 50 years and > >All you can say about your couple is that their ages were at least 40 >and no more than 45. Not quite - if they were stated as 45, then they were 45-49+ >the rule for this. For example, my couple >> are both listed at age 45. Does that mean that they were simply >nearer >> to 45 than 40--say 43 or 44? -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society
Jeremy, On the 1871 census, Lillie Robinson is not the only grandchild listed of Thomas and Ann Robinson. There is also Alphonse, 2, and Arthur, 8 months. It is reasonable to assume that they are siblings. The IGI shows a baptism for Alphonse, mother Susannah Robinson. There is also an 1849 baptism for Susannah Robinson, daughter of Thomas and Ann. Again from the IGI it appears that this Susannah Robinson marries Matthew Bliss in Feb 1881. With Matthew and Susan Bliss in 1881 is a son Edward Robinson, 8. I can't find Lillie, Alphonse or Arthur in 1881. I haven't found a birth or marriage for Lillie Robinson on FreeBMD. It may be that they haven't yet been transcribed. Regards Steven Gibbs Bedford
In message <cb2a14ca02f834d256888f10a927bfa2@rogers.com>, Chris Roberts > However, in the Stanbridge case, it is with all of the >adults enumerated. > >Does anyone out there know the rule for this. For example, my couple >are both listed at age 45. Does that mean that they were simply nearer >to 45 than 40--say 43 or 44? No: the rules said that ages should be rounded down to the nearest multiple of five, so '45' means anything from 45 that day, up to 50 next morning (always supposing they knew their correct ages). Some enumerators could not cope with the multiplication involved, so used the exact age, though most had already got to grips with this concept in the eartlier censuses from 1801 (almost all of which no longer survive in any form). -- Eve McLaughlin Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society
That is true, Peter, I had forgot them. Beds Archives and Bedford Library have National Roll of Honour books for WW1 which lists all the men who returned home [there is one book for North Beds & another for South Beds]. And the parishes often have their own Rolls of Honour, so it may be worth writing to the Vicar [who will probably pass your letter on the village British Legion Secretary] but at least you should hear one way or another. cathy
I JUST KNEW..... ..The moment I submitted the query, I'd find an answer....more transcription errors. I'm pretty sure I've found the GRO entry for the marriage now (Q2-1887, Luton Vol 3b, Pg 725). Details, JUST IN CASE it is of interest to anyone else. "freeBMD" (and any list using this as its source) do not list "George Fowler". But, "1837online.com" do, at the reference given above. Cross referring this page on "freeBMD" shows a "Louisa Robinson", as the only entry from this page. Checking the image shows it actually is "Lily". Louisa has bee mis-transcribed from the line below. Correction submitted to BMD. The moral of course......check ALL sources, before engaging despair...hopefully the birth certificate will now solve my query. Warm Regards to All Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Sandford Jeremy-jsandfo1 Sent: 02 February 2006 09:34 To: BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [BDF] Lilly Robinson...Where did She Come From !! Hi All, Am seeking someone, with a vested interest perhaps, who may be able to help me with another problem. I am trying to confirm the paternal line for my Gt Grandmother, one Lily (Lillie)Robinson, who later married George Fowler, Both of Houghton Regis, I believe. My "Assumed" (Lillie) first appears on the scene, in the 1871 Census for Houghton Regis, as the G-Daughter of Thomas Robinson. Born c1870, in Houghton. She then disappears again, until she appears on my Grandmother's (Edith Fowler) Birth certificate 5 Apr 1892 (now Lily), (I have the original copy given to them by the registrar, so I at least know that is accurate!!) I have searched all on-line records I can find, but try as I may, I can not located her before or after 1871. No Birth Record, residence, possible Father, etc. Neither can I locate any record of her marriage to George Fowler Thomas's only listed son in the 1851, is George (Robinson), and although he seems to survive and marry, he does not appear to be Lily's father. But was there another son ?? (41 census perhaps) ?. The census records for this family are a bit convoluted, and I know for a fact there are transcription errors, on "Ancestry" at least. I very vaguely remember my "Great Grandma Fowler", from my childhood and I have a photo, so I know she existed........BUT where did she come from ??? I know how some of you guys love to unravel these problems, so any information, ideas, or even wild guesses appreciated. Very Best Regards Jerry Sandford Senior Technical Training Instructor Technical Training Network Services and Applications Management Telephone: ++44(0)1793 568361 Email: Jerry.Sandford@Motorola.com <mailto:Jerry.Sandford@Motorola.com> Http://www.motorola.com/networksupport ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== To do a search of the Bedford Archives go to http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl Enter Bedford in the box
Hi All, Am seeking someone, with a vested interest perhaps, who may be able to help me with another problem. I am trying to confirm the paternal line for my Gt Grandmother, one Lily (Lillie)Robinson, who later married George Fowler, Both of Houghton Regis, I believe. My "Assumed" (Lillie) first appears on the scene, in the 1871 Census for Houghton Regis, as the G-Daughter of Thomas Robinson. Born c1870, in Houghton. She then disappears again, until she appears on my Grandmother's (Edith Fowler) Birth certificate 5 Apr 1892 (now Lily), (I have the original copy given to them by the registrar, so I at least know that is accurate!!) I have searched all on-line records I can find, but try as I may, I can not located her before or after 1871. No Birth Record, residence, possible Father, etc. Neither can I locate any record of her marriage to George Fowler Thomas's only listed son in the 1851, is George (Robinson), and although he seems to survive and marry, he does not appear to be Lily's father. But was there another son ?? (41 census perhaps) ?. The census records for this family are a bit convoluted, and I know for a fact there are transcription errors, on "Ancestry" at least. I very vaguely remember my "Great Grandma Fowler", from my childhood and I have a photo, so I know she existed........BUT where did she come from ??? I know how some of you guys love to unravel these problems, so any information, ideas, or even wild guesses appreciated. Very Best Regards Jerry Sandford Senior Technical Training Instructor Technical Training Network Services and Applications Management Telephone: ++44(0)1793 568361 Email: Jerry.Sandford@Motorola.com <mailto:Jerry.Sandford@Motorola.com> Http://www.motorola.com/networksupport
In a message dated 2/2/06 12:13:32 PM GMT Standard Time, eve@varneys.demon.co.uk writes: > Some > enumerators could not cope with the multiplication involved, so used the > exact age, though most had already got to grips with this concept in the > eartlier censuses from 1801 (almost all of which no longer survive in > any form). > Yes, thanks for that. Sometimes the ages seem to be 'spot on' with other documents and sometimes really wide off the mark. Sometimes the census people gave the right age and sometimes they are wildly inaccurate? Best thing is to marry the 1841 data with other sources - I dont think the census people knew they were 'Victorians' in 1841! But who else than Victorians would even think of rounding peoples' ages off to 5? Can't see the point of it? cathy
Peter I think nearly all men who died from the British Commonwealth countries would be listed here: http://www.cwgc.org/ [Go to 'debt of honour'] Often they have ages, next of kin and, even, addresses. I think the records were made a few years after the Wars because sometimes the widows have remarried. My father asked me to look up about 10 of his comrades who had been killed by the Hitler Youth snipers in Spring 1945 - and I found all but one of them. The UK National Archives have medical records of men from WW1 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results-summary.asp?CatID=*&searchType=browse&pagenumber=1&query=&queryType=1&sortSpec= I think they are starting on WW11 soon? You can download records for £3.50. I dont know much about the records at Kew but I have found both of my grandfathers WW1 records. The Australian Archives seem easier to navigate than ours do! cathy
Rachel Try rootschat.com as there is no index for 1841 etc and I thought there was a 1851 index for everywhere but there isnt! http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=1 cathy
Jet lag is always a problem if you fly from one side of the world to the other. I usually fly from Australia and we are at this moment 11 hours ahead of the UK but one tries to adapt to the time change.I find that when I get into Heathrow it is easy to find the bus terminal and once on that you can sleep far easier than on a train. The trick to jetlag is to not go to sleep when you get to your destination but to try your utmost to keep awake as long as you can to fit in with this change. The quicker you get into the pattern the easier. I have travelled back and forth for a number of years and have proved this. Anyway good luck in your venture. Eunice - Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandee" <sandee@ionet.net> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: [BDF] Research Trip to Beds > You have all been so wonderful in filling me in, clueing me in, lining me out......i sincerely thank each and every one of you! > > my clan were mostly located in the bedford area, all those little hamlets and villages...then they started to migrate for one reason or another... death of a spouse was often the reason, the widow 'went home', some of the kids were grown, some were not, so the youngest went with mom or the widowed father (that remarried 'Sarah')....various spellings, very common names, have been most frustrating. i suppose that is the real reason i finally decided to make this trip over. i was in england 3 years ago, but in the London and Kent region, i did not know about this 'knot' at that time. i do have ancestry, i do have the census, i have been trying to follow all of the boards, websites, etc. most of what i come up with is index's, without any, or very little supporting information. ie, father and mothers names, mothers maiden names, spouse names, etc. nothing to really link them together. the marriage index is most frustrating....there can be 10 people listed on the page....and no l! > ink as to who married who! the partners are not connected.....and there are often 'several good choices to choose from' :) Then there are all of the Davids, James, Johns, Georges, that married all of the Emma's, Elizabeth's, and Mary Ann's, and the male and female children being named after the grandparents, parents, favorite aunt or uncle, or strung together after 3 or 4 ancestors! then there is not being all that familiar with the local vernacular, how things work, what boundry a hamlet or village was in at any given time. i do cut and past what i find into the individual records.....i can deal with all of the ag laborers and straw plaitters....and am thankful for the occassional blacksmith or hurdlemaker (just what was a hurdle...only thing i can think of is what horses jump over?:) > > i knew about the Britrail Pass...but had not heard of the National Rail Co or the Thameslink. Thank all of you for the great info. The bus sounds good, but i know i will be flat exhausted when i get into london. it depends if i get a flight thru dallas or chicago to which airport i use. someone at work told me that they thought there was a direct line from gatwick, but had no idea about heathrow...i never understood why when i flew to france i did not have the jet lag problem, but with london i do. it was explained to me by a 40year military veteran....once you CROSS over the GMT, no problem, but london IS GMT, so one 'hits the envelope'.... > > i have been trying to untangle this clan for about 5 years....sometimes i think i got it....only to find out.....nope, that isn't it! or, most often.....need more information to prove it. > > The primary names are Wells, ODell, Hilliard/Hillyard, Wilson, and Stevens in Beds. Per my grandmother Nellie Wells, her father James Wells's grandmother was an ODell.....but the only Wells/Odell marriage i find is David Wells b ca 1865, son of James - to Isabella Odell b ca 1866 Shefford, dau of George and Isabella. but i only find them with one child, Maude, b ca 1883-1889 per 1891 and 1901 census, and there are quite a few others.....George Wells m Emma Hilliard b ca 1843 in Shefford, dau of George and Emma! > > Thanks again to all of you. Your comments, suggestions, info is most graciously received > > Sandee > sandee@ionet.net > > > ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== > The Bedfordshire Surnames List can be viewed at: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/bedf.html > >
After seeing the ages on the 1841 census for the Stanbridge couple, Richard and Hannah Holtum, that I had asked about,--gratefully helped by Kevin and Peter--I am now asking about their recorded ages. I noticed that all of the adults on the 1841 Stanbridge census have a rounded off ages to the nearest 5. I do remember something being said about this being done on this first census, but have found that this is not always so. However, in the Stanbridge case, it is with all of the adults enumerated. Does anyone out there know the rule for this. For example, my couple are both listed at age 45. Does that mean that they were simply nearer to 45 than 40--say 43 or 44? A small detail, I know, but of interest. Thank you, Chris in Ontario
Sandy / Grant Just to say there's a direct train link from Gatwick to Bedford - so you don't need to change in London - unless you want to stop off & see the sights. The Bedford Archives is in County Hall Bedford, only open Monday-Friday. see http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/archive for information Cheers John Partridge Bedford ----- Original Message ----- From: "grant corson" <corson@adelphia.net> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [BDF] Beds Records Locations > You are wise to have a train pass, it really is the best way to travel. > The > trains run frequently and you can get to see the country side in a relaxed > way, especially if you are used to driving on the right side of the road. > The Archives in Bedford are very helpful and the people there are super. > Your search might take you to a village that is not served by a train but > then there is usually a bus going where you need to go. We went twice to > Bedford and to Turvey where my folks are from and had only positive > experiences right down to the two gentlemen in the Three Cranes who found > an > old map of Turvey showing house numbers that was a great help. > Have a wonderful time, no worries > Can't help you with the airport question, either one should get you on > your > way, although I would guess Heathrow would be the most likely, then into > London and up to Bedford. I don't believe you can get a direct line from > either airport to Bedford but I might be mistaken. > Best, Grant Corson in Vermont, USA > > > On 1/31/06 8:35 AM, "Sandee" <sandee@ionet.net> wrote: > >> i am planning a trip from the USA to Bedford in June, and am inquiring >> about >> the best way to go about accessing local records. What departments would >> i >> contact?, will i have any problems looking and searching thru the >> records >> myself? if so, would there be any fees for looking and transcribing >> family >> information? i understand there would be fees if i get copies of records, >> can >> anyone advise what the fee amount would be? are there smaller local >> offices? >> if so, are they open daily for 8am-5pm, or does one need to go to the >> larger >> registration office in Bedford? where else may records be kept that i >> could >> look at first hand? Do local cemeteries have lists of internments? which >> cemeteries would be the most likely where the ancients would be buried? >> are >> church records accessable to the public? >> >> I will be primarily searching: Bedford, Shefford, Sandy, Hamlet of >> Ireland, >> Biggleswade, Southill, and Wyboston areas in Beds, as well as Hinxworth >> and >> Tring in Herts, and Winslow and Aylesbury in Bucks. The time frame i will >> be >> searching will be ca 1812-1890. >> >> I will be getting a train pass, can anyone advise which airport, Heathrow >> or >> Gatwick, would have the most direct train to Bedford? britrail.com is not >> exactly clear on this. >> >> any clues, tips, warning, hints, do's and don'ts would be most gratefully >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you for any assistance >> Sandee >> sandee@ionet.net >> >> >> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >> To do a search of the Bedford Archives go to >> http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >> Enter Bedford in the box >> > > > > ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== > The Bedfordshire Family History Page is at > http://www.bfhs.org.uk > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.25/247 - Release Date: > 31/01/2006 >
Thought I should join in here. The war memorials have been fairly well covered as had been said but there are thousands out there. I have around 650+ memorials to put on-line at present with 700 edits to do. Hertfordshire is gradually building and so is Buckinghamshire, anybody wishing to volunteer to help then please contact me. As well as the memorials I am always looking for databases to put on-line for instance Kempston Men Who Served in World War 1 is there, I am working on the Beds and Herts WW2 database, the Bedfordshire Regiment 1st, 1st Garrison and 1st/5th databases are also there plus a database covering the Boer War which with 16,000 records is only in its infancy. I am always looking for photographs, there are quite a few there now but not nearly enough. Luton was transcribed but does not look as if it will be available so that one needs redoing. I have spent a few thousand pounds on research material so any contributions to the site can be researched fairly well. I am trying to find the time to visit Bedford Library to run through the newspapers from 1919 to 1925 for dedication information so if anybody has any of this it would be welcome. Kind regards, Martin Edwards Webmaster - Roll of Honour www.roll-of-honour.com rollofhonour@fastfreenet.com
Hi Kevin, Thank you so much for all of your efforts to make your site such a great source of information. Visually it is very attractive. And the white on black is so effective on the census pages. I appreciate that you posted it in response to my query. It was good to see my couple and their young family. it helped me. Thanks again, Chris in Ontario, Canada
Sandee said: I will be primarily searching: Bedford, Shefford, Sandy, Hamlet of Ireland, Biggleswade, Southill, and Wyboston areas in Beds, as well as Hinxworth and Tring in Herts, and Winslow and Aylesbury in Bucks. Sandee, if you go to Bedford Library in the centre of town and go up to the mezzanine they have transcribed parish registers on the shelves, and lots of Bedfordshire stuff. I usually go there to see what I can find before going to BLARS at County Hall to look at things. Also for Bucks records you'll probably need to go to Aylesbury. Have a look here: http://met.open.ac.uk/genuki/big/eng/BKM/ Look at http://www.bucksfhs.org.uk/ and select Links it takes you to the Centre for Bucks Studies Also look at http://www.bucksgs.org.uk/ and perhaps ask further advice on Bucks-L@rootsweb.com
Hello Listers I have just re-subscribed as I have a brickwall, which I don't seem to be able to surmount and am hoping someone recognises any of the following........... My 2 x great grandmother, Millbrook-born Elizabeth WOODLAND, (17) shows up in the 1851 Holbeck (Leeds WRY) census living with her widowed mother Ann (60), also shown as being born at Millbrook. When Elizabeth married at Leeds in 1852 her father was shown as William Woodland, a gardener. The IGI shows an Elizabeth christened at Husband Crawley, daughter of William and Hannah, their youngest child. A William and Nanny UNDERWOOD married in 1816 at Millbrook. I do realise that Nanny, Nancy and Hannah are all variations of the name Ann, so wonder if I have the correct family. BTW also at the Holbeck address in 1851 there is a Suffolk born Jonathan SHEPHERD married, "nephew" and a Martha SHEPHERD married "niece" born Millbrook, and their baby son James. (a Jonathan Shepherd and Martha Woodland married at Leeds in 1850) Can anyone throw any light on these Woodlands of mine, please? I would be most grateful. Regards Phyll Clover Please note- my e-mail address has changed since I was last a subscriber. It is now ...... p-clover@paradise.net.nz