> Would someone please be able to help me confirm something from IGI ? It > says my 4th G Grandfather was buried 15th April 1788 at Great Barford, > Bedford. Are there any monumental subscriptions online for Great Barfford > Please? > With Thanks Pat I thought we'd been down this route before. Thomas COLMAN, baker, was buried on that date. (Taken from the official transcript of burials.) Regards Steven Gibbs Bedford

Would someone please be able to help me confirm something from IGI ? It says my 4th G Grandfather was buried 15th April 1788 at Great Barford, Bedford. Are there any monumental subscriptions online for Great Barfford Please? With Thanks Pat

Hi list There is a good website for all you listers who are not familiar with the towns and villages of Bedfordshire which gives a small precis of each of them, and where they are located, the address is www.rootsweb.com/~engbdf/placeindex.html. It has other Beds information too. Cheers Patti

In a message dated 3/31/06 6:42:49 PM GMT Standard Time, slappyknight@ntlworld.com writes: > Would someone please be able to help me confirm something from IGI ? It > says my 4th G Grandfather was buried 15th April 1788 at Great Barford, Bedford. > Are there any monumental subscriptions online for Great Barfford Please? > With Thanks Pat Pat I do not think they are online but Beds Family History do publish small booklets and/or microfiches [as Eaton Socon is a 'big one' I think it is on microfiche] of the inscriptions that were collected some years ago... http://www.kbnet.co.uk/brianp/publications.html Certainly, Beds Archives have all the monumental inscriptions too cathy

I have just searched the Northants marriage index for you and I can't find the name or any variations you are looking for. Sorry. Happy Hunting, Jean. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Andrew" <candrew@kingston.net> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:17 AM Subject: Re: [BDF] Joseph CLAYSON > Hi Jean: > > You're very welcome. Could I ask you if you could do a lookup in your > Northants marriages for the surname CARRAT or variation, please? I have > several children of Richard Carrat and his wife Ann who were born in > Horling Lincs. The family moved to Wansford in 1774. These children may > have married in or near Wansford as I can't find any sign of them after > the settlement certificate. > The names and years of birth of the children were Thomas 1765, Ann 1773, > Mary 1776 and Catherine 1780. > > Thank you > Chris > > Jean Ann Palmer wrote: > >> Thank you Chris for your very speedy reply. >> I am most grateful. Now I can go and look for her baptism in Weedon, >> Nths. I was born in Northampton and my late mother-in-law lived in >> Weedon. >> Happy Hunting, >> Jean. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Andrew" <candrew@kingston.net> >> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [BDF] Joseph CLAYSON >> >> >>> Hi Jean: >>> >>> This marriage is on the IGI: >>> >>> JOS CLAYSON >>> Spouse: MARY MORETON OR MORTON >>> Marriage: 03 MAY 1811 Harrold, Bedford, England >>> Source Information: Batch No.: M003831 >>> >>> Looks like Mary's family may have moved to Harrold or she was possibly >>> in service or living with a relative. >>> This entry is extracted from the Harrold parish marriage register. >>> >>> Chris Andrew >>> Ontario, Canada >>> >>> Jean Ann Palmer wrote: >>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> Joseph CLAYSON was born in Harrold, Bedfordshire about 1792. He >>>> married Mary who was born in Weedon, Northamptonshire. Their first >>>> child Lydia was born about 1813 in Harrold according to the census. >>>> Joseph and Mary were not married in Harrold or Weedon. I have >>>> purchased the Northamptonshire Marriage index 1700 to 1837. I am >>>> willing to look up Northamptonshire marriages for anyone. >>>> Is there a marriage index for Bedfordshire please? And if so where can >>>> I purchase it? I would be most grateful if someone who has it would >>>> take a look for me to see where they were married. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately Joseph died in Harrold in 1835 before his name was on any >>>> census. >>>> >>>> Thank you and happy hunting to everyone, >>>> Jean who lives in Victoria, B.C. Canada. >>>> >>>> >>>> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >>>> For any updates our info about the status of this list go to >>>> http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >>> When REPLYING to a message sent to the list decide if this is >>> information that all the list members would like to know about or >>> whether it would only be of interest to the individual you are replying >>> to. >>> >>> >> >> >> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >> For any updates our info about the status of this list go to >> http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >> >> >> > > > > ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== > The Bedfordshire Family History Page is at > http://www.bfhs.org.uk > >

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I have run into a huge brickwall trying to figure out the family of my GGGG grandfather. His name is RICHARD WOODLAND, born 21 Jan 1798, Millbrook, Bedfordshire. He is one of 10 children, birthyears of the children are 1778 to 1800 according to the IGI. His parents names (IGI) are WILLIAM WOODLAND born 1772? and SARAH LITCHFIELD born 1766?, married 1 Nov.1777/97?(IGI) Millbrook. I found a JOHN WOODLAND and ANN, also resided in Millbrook, the birth years of their children are 1792-1804. I also found a WILLIAM WOODLAND born 1790 and ANN born 1792, also from Millbrook. their children's birthyears are 1817 to 1835?, all information from IGI and freebmd. I would like to find out if and how the JOHN and WILLIAM and WILLIAM are related. of if the IGI has the names and dates mixed up or completely wrong and the 2 Williams are one and the same person. Possibility of John and one of the William's being brothers? the childrens names according to IGI and freebmd are as follows: CHILDREN of 1772 WILLIAM: THOMAS,KITTY,WILLIAM,ELIZABETH,SARAH,MARTHA,ANN, MARY, RICHARD,SUSANNAH. CHILDREN of 1790 WILLIAM: MARY,JOHN,CATHERINE, JAMES, RICHARD, SARAH, MARTHA, THOMAS, WILLIAM CHILDREN of JOHN: MARY,JOHN, FLOWERS,PHOEBE,ANN, MARTHA. any help is appreciated. thank you marie, canada

Terry - thats an absolutely brilliant idea. I never thought about that! Obviously I knew about the marriage to Ann Bradshaw but it never crossed my mind to get that certificate as it doesn't relate to my direct line. Who knows - if it does show Thomasas the father of Thomas, we might be even more closely related than we thought! Thanks again to you and to everyone who has responded to my question. Allan >X-Message: #8 >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:54:40 +0100 >From: "Terry Barcock, 153 Ltd" <terry.barcock@153.co.uk> >To: BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <MABBLMMEBBFIBCCILIAIEEFIHKAA.terry.barcock@153.co.uk> >Subject: RE: [BDF] Thomas Smith, born Stagsden abt 1845 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I've come across a lot of cases of wrong fathers' names in >marriage records. Typically the groom's name is replicated, >or the bride's and groom's fathers' first names are confused. > >(Interestingly, Thomas's name is abbreviated to Thos in the >1881 census, but at first sight looks more like Jas. and >could easily be interpreted as James.) > >I presume that the certificate you have is for >his 24 Dec 1867 marriage to Martha RIDDY in Stagsden. >It would be interesting to know what father's name is >shown for Thomas's later marriage to Ann BRADSHAW Mar Q 1879 >in Sheffield (Vol 9c, p. 553). > > >Terry Barcock, >Director, 153 Ltd "Websites that work" www.153.co.uk >Design, hosting and support for E-business and Database Applications >11 Gladstone Avenue, JOHNSTONE PA5 0RD (UK) Tel +44 (0)1505 615360 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Smith [mailto:asmith_driver@hotmail.com] >Sent: 29 March 2006 08:38 >To: BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [BDF] Thomas Smith, born Stagsden abt 1845 > > >I've got a bit of a problem. > >My previous research led me to believe that my great grandfather (as above) >was the son of James Smith and Mary Seamark. > >Now, however, having obtained his marriage certificate, I see that his >father is named as Thomas also. > >Is there a possibility that the Vicar, when he noted the marriage in his >records, got it wrong and noted my great grandfather's own name down as >'Father' rather than his actual father's name (who, incidentally, if it was >James, was dead by that time). > >I've checked the 1871 census and found my great grandfather after he was >married, and he states his place of birth as Stagsden. I've therefore >checked the 1851 and 1861 censuses and the only Thomas born at the right >time in Stagsden is in fact the son of James as I thought, and not Thomas >as >is noted on his marriage certificate. > >Is there anywhere I can double check, and if so, where would I need to go. > >Allan Smith >Sheffield, England > >Researching:- >SMITH, RIDDY, WALLINGER, WELCH & TOMKINS from Bedfordshire & Bucks (up to >mid 19th century) > >ELMES (or ELMS) from Northants (up to mid 19th century) > >SMITH & DAVI(E)S from Oxfordshire & Hunts (Mid 19th century) > >SMITH, DAVI(E)S, WORSNOP, BAILEY, ASHMAN & WHITELEY from Sheffield (1870's >onwards) >

Hi David Perhaps I’m missing something here, but you say David’s marriage cert shows his father as James. His christening entry on the IGI shows his parents as James and Mary. Why should the fathers’ names have been transposed on the marriage cert? That would make his christening entry wrong! There are two marriages for James Bavister in Harlington (controlled extracts, not those unreliable member submissions) 1 Oct 1827 to Mary Ann Hurst 24 Sept 1798 Mary Hickman On the IGI there are a numerous christenings in Harlington of children with parents James and Mary, with the later James probably being the son of the elder James (there’s a christening on 24 Sept 1809). But there are no Samuels in Harlington. 1841 census HO107/005-14 folio 6B Harlington James Bavister 60 Ag lab Mary Bavister 60 Daniel Bavister 18 All born in county Folio 8A Harlington Mary Bavister 35 Ind Jospeh Bavister 13 William Bavister 11 George Bavister 8 All born in county In 1851 HO107/1755 folio 255B Church Rd Harlington James Bavester head marr 73 farm lab b Westoning Mary Bavester wife 72 b Streatley The burial in 1839 of James age 31 would appear to be the one married in 1827, with the 1854 probably that of David’s father. It’s quite possible that David, who in 1851 was a “Gentleman’s servant” to a vicar in Norfolk, upgraded his father from ag lab when he married. Regards David David and Sandra Bavister <bavisters_deeside@talk21.com> a écrit : Dear all I am looking for my x 3 gt grandfather James Bavister. I have a copy of my x 2 gt grandfather David’s Marriage Certificate dated 4 June 1854. The Rank or Profession of Father is given as Brewer. There is no indication that David’s father was deceased at the time of the marriage. I have searched the 1851 Census and freeBDM records. No joy with either despite having obtained the Certificates of the recorded deaths, in the name of James, for both 1839 and 1854. The two Death Certificates I have record each James as a Labourer. David was born in Harlington in about 1826 (IGI Christening record 15 May 1826) and was a Draper at the time of his marriage and lived, and subsequently lived, in Waltham Abbey, Essex until his death in 1876. The Death Certificate records his profession as Draper and Postmaster. I have found subsequent information in each Census from 1851 to1901 regarding the David’s family. I noted the comment made yesterday by Terry Barcock that he had found many cases where groom’s father and bride’s father first names had been transposed. The bride’s father is listed as Samuel Wells, Farmer and he lived in Tenterden, Kent. I see from the freeBDM records that a Samuel Bavister’s death is recorded at Luton 1849 Oct-Dec 6 65 and another Samuel’s death is recorded at Luton 1860 Jan-Mar 3b 314. Based on Terry’s comment either of these two Samuel’s could possibly be my 3 x gt grandfather. Before I purchase these two Death Certificates, has anyone got access to the 1841 Census for Bedfordshire to see whether or not James is listed and has the profession of a Brewer? Many thanks for taking the time to read the above. David Bavister living in North Wales ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== Bedfordshire at Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com/~engbdf/ --------------------------------- Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.Téléchargez la version beta.

> I am looking for my x 3 gt grandfather James Bavister. I have a copy of > my > x 2 gt grandfather David's Marriage Certificate dated 4 June 1854. The > Rank > or Profession of Father is given as Brewer. There is no indication that > David's father was deceased at the time of the marriage. I have searched > the 1851 Census and freeBDM records. FreeBMD isn't complete, especially with deaths. FamilyHistoryOnline shows "James BAVISTER found in National Burial Index (Bedfordshire FHS) 1 entry in Bedfordshire during 1839 details £0.06" Unfortunately I don't have any credit (minimum £5) so can't look it up. Regards Steven Gibbs Bedford

Hi everyone, Does anyone have access to the Clifton parish registers covering the early 1800s? I am trying to verify some information on an ENDERSBY family of mine. If anyone does I would really appreciate it if you got in touch with me. Thanks for your time, Donna

Dear Gus Many thanks for the information. I think I have tried most variations of Bavister (having experienced them myself over the years) but, on your suggestion, I'll try a few more. I have been successful in downloading and manually transcribing all Bavister deaths between 1837 and 1983. It is the Beta system I have been using for this information. The Marriage Certificate is a Certified Copy from the GRO so I have no way of knowing if there was an error in transcription. I think it is reasonable to assume that David was fairly well educated bearing in mind his occupations as listed at the time of his death, and therefore would have probably spotted any errors made by the Incumbent. Similarly, his wife would probably have spotted any errors, as she too was a Postmistress and Draper for some 16 years after her husband's death. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Best wishes David

Hello David, There was no requirement in 1854 to state if a father was dead. All that was aked was his name and occupation. What names did you search the 1851 Census for? BAVISTER only - or did you also try the perhaps-more-likely transcriber/indexer reading of BAN[N]ISTER? FreeBMD is still quite some way from being "Complete", so you could well not find hime even if he HAD died. Try Ancestry.com, and the 'beta version of the full GRO Indexes'. Finally, is the marriage certificate that you hold a photocopy of the Church Register, or is it from a Registrar's Copy? [The church Register is the Prime Document here, all others are transcribed copies...] If David signed the register (as opposed to marking it) it would be highly likely that he would've noticed if the clerk had mis-written his father's name. HTH Gus ----- Original Message ----- From: "David and Sandra Bavister" <bavisters_deeside@talk21.com> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: [BDF] James Bavister Dear all I am looking for my x 3 gt grandfather James Bavister. I have a copy of my x 2 gt grandfather David's Marriage Certificate dated 4 June 1854. The Rank or Profession of Father is given as Brewer. There is no indication that David's father was deceased at the time of the marriage. I have searched the 1851 Census and freeBDM records. No joy with either despite having obtained the Certificates of the recorded deaths, in the name of James, for both 1839 and 1854. The two Death Certificates I have record each James as a Labourer. David was born in Harlington in about 1826 (IGI Christening record 15 May 1826) and was a Draper at the time of his marriage and lived, and subsequently lived, in Waltham Abbey, Essex until his death in 1876. The Death Certificate records his profession as Draper and Postmaster. I have found subsequent information in each Census from 1851 to1901 regarding the David's family. I noted the comment made yesterday by Terry Barcock that he had found many cases where groom's father and bride's father first names had been transposed. The bride's father is listed as Samuel Wells, Farmer and he lived in Tenterden, Kent. I see from the freeBDM records that a Samuel Bavister's death is recorded at Luton 1849 Oct-Dec 6 65 and another Samuel's death is recorded at Luton 1860 Jan-Mar 3b 314. Based on Terry's comment either of these two Samuel's could possibly be my 3 x gt grandfather. Before I purchase these two Death Certificates, has anyone got access to the 1841 Census for Bedfordshire to see whether or not James is listed and has the profession of a Brewer? Many thanks for taking the time to read the above. David Bavister living in North Wales ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== Bedfordshire at Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com/~engbdf/

Dear all I am looking for my x 3 gt grandfather James Bavister. I have a copy of my x 2 gt grandfather David’s Marriage Certificate dated 4 June 1854. The Rank or Profession of Father is given as Brewer. There is no indication that David’s father was deceased at the time of the marriage. I have searched the 1851 Census and freeBDM records. No joy with either despite having obtained the Certificates of the recorded deaths, in the name of James, for both 1839 and 1854. The two Death Certificates I have record each James as a Labourer. David was born in Harlington in about 1826 (IGI Christening record 15 May 1826) and was a Draper at the time of his marriage and lived, and subsequently lived, in Waltham Abbey, Essex until his death in 1876. The Death Certificate records his profession as Draper and Postmaster. I have found subsequent information in each Census from 1851 to1901 regarding the David’s family. I noted the comment made yesterday by Terry Barcock that he had found many cases where groom’s father and bride’s father first names had been transposed. The bride’s father is listed as Samuel Wells, Farmer and he lived in Tenterden, Kent. I see from the freeBDM records that a Samuel Bavister’s death is recorded at Luton 1849 Oct-Dec 6 65 and another Samuel’s death is recorded at Luton 1860 Jan-Mar 3b 314. Based on Terry’s comment either of these two Samuel’s could possibly be my 3 x gt grandfather. Before I purchase these two Death Certificates, has anyone got access to the 1841 Census for Bedfordshire to see whether or not James is listed and has the profession of a Brewer? Many thanks for taking the time to read the above. David Bavister living in North Wales

Sorry; but with the wife's broken leg I can't find time to read any more at the moment. Thanks to everyone. Owen

I am just off to Vancouver for the day. I will look up the Northants marriage index for you tomorrow and send you any results I find. Best Wishes, Jean Palmer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Andrew" <candrew@kingston.net> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:17 AM Subject: Re: [BDF] Joseph CLAYSON > Hi Jean: > > You're very welcome. Could I ask you if you could do a lookup in your > Northants marriages for the surname CARRAT or variation, please? I have > several children of Richard Carrat and his wife Ann who were born in > Horling Lincs. The family moved to Wansford in 1774. These children may > have married in or near Wansford as I can't find any sign of them after > the settlement certificate. > The names and years of birth of the children were Thomas 1765, Ann 1773, > Mary 1776 and Catherine 1780. > > Thank you > Chris > > Jean Ann Palmer wrote: > >> Thank you Chris for your very speedy reply. >> I am most grateful. Now I can go and look for her baptism in Weedon, >> Nths. I was born in Northampton and my late mother-in-law lived in >> Weedon. >> Happy Hunting, >> Jean. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Andrew" <candrew@kingston.net> >> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [BDF] Joseph CLAYSON >> >> >>> Hi Jean: >>> >>> This marriage is on the IGI: >>> >>> JOS CLAYSON >>> Spouse: MARY MORETON OR MORTON >>> Marriage: 03 MAY 1811 Harrold, Bedford, England >>> Source Information: Batch No.: M003831 >>> >>> Looks like Mary's family may have moved to Harrold or she was possibly >>> in service or living with a relative. >>> This entry is extracted from the Harrold parish marriage register. >>> >>> Chris Andrew >>> Ontario, Canada >>> >>> Jean Ann Palmer wrote: >>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> Joseph CLAYSON was born in Harrold, Bedfordshire about 1792. He >>>> married Mary who was born in Weedon, Northamptonshire. Their first >>>> child Lydia was born about 1813 in Harrold according to the census. >>>> Joseph and Mary were not married in Harrold or Weedon. I have >>>> purchased the Northamptonshire Marriage index 1700 to 1837. I am >>>> willing to look up Northamptonshire marriages for anyone. >>>> Is there a marriage index for Bedfordshire please? And if so where can >>>> I purchase it? I would be most grateful if someone who has it would >>>> take a look for me to see where they were married. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately Joseph died in Harrold in 1835 before his name was on any >>>> census. >>>> >>>> Thank you and happy hunting to everyone, >>>> Jean who lives in Victoria, B.C. Canada. >>>> >>>> >>>> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >>>> For any updates our info about the status of this list go to >>>> http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >>> When REPLYING to a message sent to the list decide if this is >>> information that all the list members would like to know about or >>> whether it would only be of interest to the individual you are replying >>> to. >>> >>> >> >> >> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >> For any updates our info about the status of this list go to >> http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >> >> >> > > > > ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== > The Bedfordshire Family History Page is at > http://www.bfhs.org.uk > >

Hi Jean: You're very welcome. Could I ask you if you could do a lookup in your Northants marriages for the surname CARRAT or variation, please? I have several children of Richard Carrat and his wife Ann who were born in Horling Lincs. The family moved to Wansford in 1774. These children may have married in or near Wansford as I can't find any sign of them after the settlement certificate. The names and years of birth of the children were Thomas 1765, Ann 1773, Mary 1776 and Catherine 1780. Thank you Chris Jean Ann Palmer wrote: > Thank you Chris for your very speedy reply. > I am most grateful. Now I can go and look for her baptism in Weedon, > Nths. I was born in Northampton and my late mother-in-law lived in > Weedon. > Happy Hunting, > Jean. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Andrew" <candrew@kingston.net> > To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:04 PM > Subject: Re: [BDF] Joseph CLAYSON > > >> Hi Jean: >> >> This marriage is on the IGI: >> >> JOS CLAYSON >> Spouse: MARY MORETON OR MORTON >> Marriage: 03 MAY 1811 Harrold, Bedford, England >> Source Information: Batch No.: M003831 >> >> Looks like Mary's family may have moved to Harrold or she was >> possibly in service or living with a relative. >> This entry is extracted from the Harrold parish marriage register. >> >> Chris Andrew >> Ontario, Canada >> >> Jean Ann Palmer wrote: >> >>> Hello everyone, >>> Joseph CLAYSON was born in Harrold, Bedfordshire about 1792. He >>> married Mary who was born in Weedon, Northamptonshire. Their first >>> child Lydia was born about 1813 in Harrold according to the census. >>> Joseph and Mary were not married in Harrold or Weedon. I have >>> purchased the Northamptonshire Marriage index 1700 to 1837. I am >>> willing to look up Northamptonshire marriages for anyone. >>> Is there a marriage index for Bedfordshire please? And if so where >>> can I purchase it? I would be most grateful if someone who has it >>> would take a look for me to see where they were married. >>> >>> Unfortunately Joseph died in Harrold in 1835 before his name was on >>> any census. >>> >>> Thank you and happy hunting to everyone, >>> Jean who lives in Victoria, B.C. Canada. >>> >>> >>> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >>> For any updates our info about the status of this list go to >>> http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== >> When REPLYING to a message sent to the list decide if this is >> information that all the list members would like to know about or >> whether it would only be of interest to the individual you are >> replying to. >> >> > > > ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== > For any updates our info about the status of this list go to > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com > > >

Hi Peter and thanks for your reply. Its greatly appreciated. >I've done a bit more investigating and I think you might be wrong on a >couple of scores. > >From the data I've seen, my theory is that there were two (perhaps three) >SMITH families in >Stagsden. Yes but they were all related. The Thomas you mention later on in your reply was actually the son of James' half-brother John (james and John had the same father, Titus Smith but different mothers). >James SMITH + Mary SEAMARK had 7 children between 1834-1850. John 1834, >Titus 1836, Jane >1838, Mary 1842, William 1844, Caroline 1848 and Joseph >1950. The later births suggest that >James did not die before 1850. They actually had 9 children in total if you include the mysterious Thomas, plus George born in 1840. James died on 26th November 1850, some 5 months after the birth of his last child Joseph. Mary (Seamark) is listed as a widow on the 1851 census. >The other family was that of Thomas SMITH and Catherine (or Caroline) >Barcock. They had >Thomas 1831 (died 1832), Ann 1832, James 1835 Betsy 1838 >and Mary 1844. Strangely only >Betsy seems to give birthplace as Stagsend >in 1861. James' record show he married a Susan >Keetch. In 1851, Betsy has her birthplace listed as Kempston!! Yet more mystery. And I've got the one you call Thomas from 1831 listed as a James! As I mentioned above, Thomas is, I believe, James' half nephew (for want of a better description) despite Thomas being older than James. When James was born, his father Titus (and therefore Thomas' grandfather) was 64 and on his second wife. Thomas's own father John was born some 40 years prior to his half brother James, to Titus's first wife. >I initially was thinking that your James could be the 1835 birth. His wife >wasn't Susan Keetch was >it.? Not as far as I am aware as yet. His great grandmother though was Jane Keech, who married a John Vaux. >But looking at the 1845 entry that I can't trace, I'm now wondering if he >wasn't christened >Thomas. That would explain a lot. How would I get round that then? Any suggestions? >Do you have access to 1861 Census? I would be looking closely at the family >of Thomas born >1845. I hope he wasn't living away from home. I do and Thomas born 1845 was living with the widow Mary in Stagsden, listed as her son. This is what makes me think his marriage certificate is wrong. The older Thomas was married and living in Kempston with Caroline but no young Thomas. >But I think Thomas 1845 is your man. And I think he is named after his >father Thomas and an >earlier brother that died. I must admit that the thought had crossed my mind but the evidence suggest otherwise. I'll just have to keep digging. Once again, many many thanks for your suggestions, they are certainly food for thought. Allan

Thanks for that Brian. So you double checked with the Parish register? I'll have to do that. Allan >From: "Brian Comley" <brian@bcomley.freeserve.co.uk> >To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com>, <asmith_driver@hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [BDF] Thomas Smith, born Stagsden abt 1845 >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:49:51 +0100 > >Hello Allan > >Mistakes were often made. > >I have a birth certificate of a child born to my gg grandmother in 1841 >where the surnames of the parents are reversed - father is shown as David >BEECH; mother is described as Ann BEECH formerly HOPKINS, whereas the >father's name was David HOPKINS and the mother Ann HOPKINS formerly BEECH. >The Baptism record in the Parish Register confirms this. > >Regards > >Brian > >Brian Beeche Comley - Porthcawl, Glamorgan (South Wales - UK) >FHS Member: Glam; Gwent; Wilts > >All emails (in & out) scanned by Norton Anti Virus 2005 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allan Smith" <asmith_driver@hotmail.com> >To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:37 AM >Subject: [BDF] Thomas Smith, born Stagsden abt 1845 > > > > I've got a bit of a problem. > > > > My previous research led me to believe that my great grandfather (as >above) > > was the son of James Smith and Mary Seamark. > > > > Now, however, having obtained his marriage certificate, I see that his > > father is named as Thomas also. > > > > Is there a possibility that the Vicar, when he noted the marriage in his > > records, got it wrong and noted my great grandfather's own name down as > > 'Father' rather than his actual father's name (who, incidentally, if it >was > > James, was dead by that time). > > > > > snipped > > > >

Oh the joys of family research! First have you followed ALL the family back - your grandparents & any siblings. Great grandparents & siblings? Especially from the 1901 baakcwards? I find this to be absolutely essential, because if you strike a hitch, as you have, it is possible to check through a sibling. Secondly families have a habit of taking children back to the "home village" for Baptism . Have you got the Baptism of Thomas - it might serve as a double check. Thirdly the death of a child in infancy often meant a subsequent child was given the same christian name. James & Thomas may have been brothers and it would not be unusual for them to have children of the same age with the same name! Suggest you ensure you have checked that you have all relevant info before 1845 before looking for errors which are always possible of course. Regards Marlene in NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allan Smith" <asmith_driver@hotmail.com> To: <BEDFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [BDF] Thomas Smith, born Stagsden abt 1845 > I've got a bit of a problem. > > My previous research led me to believe that my great grandfather (as > above) was the son of James Smith and Mary Seamark. > > Now, however, having obtained his marriage certificate, I see that his > father is named as Thomas also. > > Is there a possibility that the Vicar, when he noted the marriage in his > records, got it wrong and noted my great grandfather's own name down as > 'Father' rather than his actual father's name (who, incidentally, if it > was James, was dead by that time). > > I've checked the 1871 census and found my great grandfather after he was > married, and he states his place of birth as Stagsden. I've therefore > checked the 1851 and 1861 censuses and the only Thomas born at the right > time in Stagsden is in fact the son of James as I thought, and not Thomas > as is noted on his marriage certificate. > > Is there anywhere I can double check, and if so, where would I need to go. > > Allan Smith > Sheffield, England > > Researching:- > SMITH, RIDDY, WALLINGER, WELCH & TOMKINS from Bedfordshire & Bucks (up to > mid 19th century) > > ELMES (or ELMS) from Northants (up to mid 19th century) > > SMITH & DAVI(E)S from Oxfordshire & Hunts (Mid 19th century) > > SMITH, DAVI(E)S, WORSNOP, BAILEY, ASHMAN & WHITELEY from Sheffield (1870's > onwards) > > > > ==== BEDFORD Mailing List ==== > To do a search of the Bedford Archives go to > http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > Enter Bedford in the box >