To say that asking why someone who was not born in a country, has not lived in that country, and does intend to live in that country in the future wants to be accepted as citizen with full political rights is insulting is simply ridiculous and unfair. It certainly does not promote reasoned discussion. The moderator should have intervened and said something to stop such negative and mindless comments. I am offended enough by the questioning to offer a lengthy response. I expect better from the moderators of Beara-L. It is a very legitimate question. Individual emotional needs are not a basis for sound government policy. Irishness is not easy to define; I have a recent book chapter on the subject. Before I am accused of anything negative about my Irishness--seven of my eight grandparents were born in Ireland and the eighth line goes back to County Armagh in 1681. I am very proud to be Irish American, but I am not Irish--the time I have spent in Ireland, and it is substantial, has made me very aware of being Irish-American, not Irish. I have spent many years researching, writing, about, and teaching about the Irish Diaspora--much of the writing has been shared with this list--this is too complex for anyone to be insulted about anyone else's views or questions and to dismiss them in that way--shame on you for being insulted and raising that issue. I am sure Riobard, while he might disagree with the details, will vouch for my bona fides here. The question gets to the core of Irish identity within the Diaspora. It is a very legitimate question that should not be dismissed in such an insulting way--and the dismissals are much more insulting than the question. Some of us spend years, or careers, wrestling with it. My parents are both eligible for Irish citizenship, for example. They have absolutely no interest. But, you would be very hard pressed to find anyone more proud of being Irish American than him or her. My dad was career NYPD, as was his father and eldest brother as well as several cousins. He lived the prime years of his life in an Irish American world. He, especially, is Irish American in a very basic way I have inherited. Irish citizenship for those of us in the Diaspora is not a right. When I returned as a Fulbright Fellow in January 2009 I had to register as an alien--despite my seven great grandparents. There was no glad you are back celebration. The guards and I had a laugh about it -- but I was an alien, an American, who had to register. A moment of truth. I am not really Irish, I am Irish American. There is a huge difference. People left Ireland for complex reasons with varying degrees of free will over many years but they left and made new lives. That is what the Diaspora is about. Bill Mulligan William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of james sullivan Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 8:21 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 i also find the question ? insulting . a brief history,my mother was from kerry,my wife is from galway my father was born in natick,mass but was brought up in cork.he was a member of barry's detachment.he was under a death sentence but because he was an american citizen the left him alone.when collins was killed he left. in his prosses of geting as ticket he was told that he had to have a british passport.he contacted the american counselet and after he looked into it he asked my father if he had his birth certificate,he did, and was told to get the british passport and throw it over the side when they cleared the harbor,and present his birth certificate when he got here.the persuction of ira members during the "troubles" was rampard.even the priests were turned aginst them.my unkles on my mother's side fled except for one.uy unkles and aunts sent him money to come out.when he and a friend asked the priest to vouch for them he refused.the friend's sister worked for the local minister and he got a recomedation from him.my unkle stayed,bitter at the church and bought fields with the money.so you tell this pompous jackass he does not have the brains god gave a weasle or the class god gave the pig.    jim sullivan --- On Thu, 10/29/09, julie <sullivan11@frontiernet.net> wrote: From: julie <sullivan11@frontiernet.net> Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 5:38 PM To satisfy your curiosity, many men and women who made great personal sacrifices to eventually achieve an Irish Republic were forced to leave their homeland before their dream was realized. Indeed, many of them were forced to leave because they did more for Irish independence than their friends and relatives who remained behind. Out of respect for this great diaspora, the Republic properly extended citizenship to their immediate descendants. We are not "foreigners" applying for Irish citizenship, we are Irish citizens who were born in foriegn lands. Your question about "convenience" or "feeling of Irishness" is insulting. Gary B. Sullivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "el. McC." <ancestryhelp123@hotmail.com> To: <beara@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 Just out of curiousity......why do you want Irish citizenship/ passports? Is it just convenience or a feeling for Irishness? Also, do you feel the same for "foreigners" applying for US citizenship? This is a question for all.......... something that my daughter asked about. Slán. > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:16:07 -0700 > From: asyoulikeit@snet.net > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 > > Thank you Lisa, I did not know that. > > --- On Thu, 10/29/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: > > > From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> > Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 5:11 PM > > > I was referring to the second generation foreign born's ability to get > Irish > citizenship.  I was wondering if once my husband has citizenship, his > children and grandchildren would also be eligible. > > Another poster advised me no, it was only available to 1st & 2nd > generation > foreign born children. > > Lisa > > -----Original Message----- > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Maggie Appleton > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:58 PM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 > > What is the second generation rule? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:14:34 PM > Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 > > How DO you submit a request for an Irish passport/Foreign Birth > Registration?  My husband is second generation and I would like to request > one for him.  Does anyone know if once he has one the 2 generation 'rule' > begins again?  Just wondering if his registration  would later entitle our > grandchildren to one as well. > > I guess I'm putting the horse before the cart as I have yet to get an > official birth certificate or baptism for his grandfather as well.  Did > they > issue birth certificates as of 1895?  John and Bridget were born and > buried > on Bere Island. > > I have checked and see the closest Irish Embassy to me is in Houston, TX. > Do I physically have to go there?  I have done a bit of internet > searching, > but find nothing particular to USA residents, though I have emailed the > London FBR office for assistance as well. > > Lisa O'Sullivan > Texas > > -----Original Message----- > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of John Slattery > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:53 PM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 > > Kevin, > > I had no trouble four years ago submitting a Baptism certificate for my > grandfather,(from Waterford City - 1850),as this was all that was > available > for that period; so hopefully, they would accept Church certification of > the > Baptism as a replacement for a missing Birth certificate. > > Geraldine Slattery, > Australia. > > -----Original Message----- > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Kevin MacKinnon > Sent: Thursday, 18 December 2008 1:17 AM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: [BEARA] Birth Certificate - 1878 > > > I have tried twice now to get a birth certificate for my g-grandmother > Catharine O'Sullivan (born in Adrigole 1978) without success.  They told > me > that its likely that the birth was never registered.  If that is the case, > is an Irish passport for my father out of the question??  I know (thru > Riobard) that her baptismal records are available. > Thanks > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. 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