Dear friends of Beara, Sue Iles has posted a couple of times recently to her beautiful Ring of Beara blog. If you have a moment go on over and take a look. She talks about sheep here: http://ringofbeara.blogspot.com/2009/06/sheep.html And she talks about mindfulness of the senses here: http://ringofbeara.blogspot.com/2009/06/mindfulness-of-senses-walk-around-my.html As always, she has beautiful pictures of the landscape. -- Bill

I think your best bet is to assume you need to examine the Sullivans both with and without the "O". As I think this discussion has proved, people could go by one version or the other as they felt like. It illustrates once again, how very valuable is experience with genaeological research in a narrow geographical area, such as that of Riobard O'Dwyer. This discussion reflects in many ways how far most people have become removed from the lived experience and attitudes of our ancestors or even of contemporary Beara and reflect, instead, the regimentation of the modern state. Names are fungible items, just labels to hang on someone. They are ever changing and dropping an 'O' or 'Mac/Mc' is a very, very small change. It's only since the advent of bureaucratic systems, especially with things like Social Security, etc. where the identity of a specific person has become very important and difficult to change, that a discussion such as this could occur. To make the point, here are two additional examples, drawn from the lives of friends and co-workers. A co-worker of Swedish ancestry has the last name Eastlund. However, this is a name made up by her grandfather, Jon Jonson, when he arrived in America. There were just too many John Johnsons and he didn't want to be just another one. So, he put together two words that are related to the region he came from in Sweden and created the name Eastlund. At this point, the family knows that they are really Jonsons, even though they are called Eastlund. In a generation or two that information may be lost and it will probably be very puzzling to anyone searching as many of you are. A friend, who is of Spanish origin, was named Albertina Sanchez at birth. She is a blue-eyed blonde, but found that her name often led people to stereotype her before meeting her. Further, she didn't much like Albertina as a name. So, she has changed her name to Burt Sands. Now just try fitting that into a genaeological search! Maggie Duffy ----- Original Message ----- From: "margaret stein" <maggiern99@hotmail.com> To: <beara@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 5:15 AM Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? The o or no o is confusing, in my family tree there is a sullivan who married and O'Sullivan, yet Patrick O'Sullivan had 3 sons 2 kept the O'Sullivan and one dropped the O, so I have cousins that are sullivan and O'Sullivan, finding records were very hard some wrote the census with the O some without, and in san francisco most records were lost > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:11:33 -0700 > From: djos2@earthlink.net > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > The O or not the O. It can very confusing, if trying to do a family tree. > In 1913 my grandfather, Frank Dalton Sullivan. a writer and publisher born > in the U.S., added the O because he felt it was more dramatic. Not knowing > he made the change, I hunted for O'Sullivan. After much searching I found > that my great, great grandfather, a copper miner from Allihies, Beara, > County Cork, was Denis Sullivan, and my family tree finally fit together. > I understand that the O' was often removed because the English said: If > you > want to keep your land or feed your family you must take off the O'. Also > that the O' means descended from and the Suil in Suileabhan is pronounced > Soole. (?) > > Dalton O'Sullivan San Francisco, CA > > > > On 7/17/09 4:11 PM, "Patricia O'Shea" <pkoshea@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > > Hi Maggie, I think you are right on the money here. We can speculate all > > we > > like but our folk were often just plain inconsistent. > > > > My grandfather appears never to have used the O in his surname yet he > > addressed letters to my father in New Zealand with the O!! > > > > My cousins in Ireland do not use the O to this day but I do. Just > > preference > > really. (Although one cousin suggested that to be absolutely correct I > > should use the prefix 'ni' rather than the O.) > > > > I understand there were times when overt Irishness was a disadvantage > > but I > > suspect that everyone knew that SULLIVAN, SHEA, LEARY etc were Irish > > names > > anyway so the use of the O is not the only indicator. > > > > Great discussion. > > Regards, Patsy - New Zealand > > And yes I know, in Ireland Patsy is largely a man's name yet my father > > was > > keen for me to have it - I rest my case!! > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 7:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > > > > >> I think we're all being way too analytical about this. It's been my > >> experience that people kept or dropped the O' as they felt like it on > >> whatever day they happened to write it or say it. > >> > >> For example, my mother and her sister both came to the States. The > >> family > >> name is O'Leary. My mother dropped it and signed herself or gave as her > >> maiden name Mary Leary (most of the time, unless when she decided to > >> write > >> Mary O'Leary). Her sister consistently kept it and always signed > >> Katherine O'Leary. > >> > >> Similarly, my distant cousin, Noreen Sullivan was always Sullivan, even > >> though the family in Beara is O'Sullivan. > >> > >> What's more, very few people in Beara use the O' in everyday speech. > >> Most > >> of the O'Sullivans there are simply referred to as Sullivan or by a > >> branch > >> name. But everyone always knows that these names are preceded by the O' > >> formally. > >> > >> Another case in point. My grandfather's name was John O'Leary. On the > >> 1911 census he is listed not as "John O'Leary", but as "Sylvy Leary". > >> That's presumably what he told the census taker, or what the census > >> taker, > >> who may have already known the family, wrote down that particular day. > >> However, that name is the family nickname, not his actual given name. > >> But > >> I know who he is because there's my mother, age 2, and her brothers, > >> ages > >> 5, 4, and 3, and my great-grandparents and my grandmother, etc. It > >> really > >> doesn't matter what he chose to call himself that day or what the > >> census > >> taker wrote down. He was who he was. > >> > >> People used whatever they felt comfortable using on the day they were > >> using it. To analyze it further for some sort of sociological or > >> historical meaning is, in my view, quite pointless. > >> > >> Maggie Duffy > >> Manhattan and Beara > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in > > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Search, add, and share the web’s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The o or no o is confusing, in my family tree there is a sullivan who married and O'Sullivan, yet Patrick O'Sullivan had 3 sons 2 kept the O'Sullivan and one dropped the O, so I have cousins that are sullivan and O'Sullivan, finding records were very hard some wrote the census with the O some without, and in san francisco most records were lost > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:11:33 -0700 > From: djos2@earthlink.net > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > The O or not the O. It can very confusing, if trying to do a family tree. > In 1913 my grandfather, Frank Dalton Sullivan. a writer and publisher born > in the U.S., added the O because he felt it was more dramatic. Not knowing > he made the change, I hunted for O'Sullivan. After much searching I found > that my great, great grandfather, a copper miner from Allihies, Beara, > County Cork, was Denis Sullivan, and my family tree finally fit together. > I understand that the O' was often removed because the English said: If you > want to keep your land or feed your family you must take off the O'. Also > that the O' means descended from and the Suil in Suileabhan is pronounced > Soole. (?) > > Dalton O'Sullivan San Francisco, CA > > > > On 7/17/09 4:11 PM, "Patricia O'Shea" <pkoshea@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > > Hi Maggie, I think you are right on the money here. We can speculate all we > > like but our folk were often just plain inconsistent. > > > > My grandfather appears never to have used the O in his surname yet he > > addressed letters to my father in New Zealand with the O!! > > > > My cousins in Ireland do not use the O to this day but I do. Just preference > > really. (Although one cousin suggested that to be absolutely correct I > > should use the prefix 'ni' rather than the O.) > > > > I understand there were times when overt Irishness was a disadvantage but I > > suspect that everyone knew that SULLIVAN, SHEA, LEARY etc were Irish names > > anyway so the use of the O is not the only indicator. > > > > Great discussion. > > Regards, Patsy - New Zealand > > And yes I know, in Ireland Patsy is largely a man's name yet my father was > > keen for me to have it - I rest my case!! > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 7:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > > > > >> I think we're all being way too analytical about this. It's been my > >> experience that people kept or dropped the O' as they felt like it on > >> whatever day they happened to write it or say it. > >> > >> For example, my mother and her sister both came to the States. The family > >> name is O'Leary. My mother dropped it and signed herself or gave as her > >> maiden name Mary Leary (most of the time, unless when she decided to write > >> Mary O'Leary). Her sister consistently kept it and always signed > >> Katherine O'Leary. > >> > >> Similarly, my distant cousin, Noreen Sullivan was always Sullivan, even > >> though the family in Beara is O'Sullivan. > >> > >> What's more, very few people in Beara use the O' in everyday speech. Most > >> of the O'Sullivans there are simply referred to as Sullivan or by a branch > >> name. But everyone always knows that these names are preceded by the O' > >> formally. > >> > >> Another case in point. My grandfather's name was John O'Leary. On the > >> 1911 census he is listed not as "John O'Leary", but as "Sylvy Leary". > >> That's presumably what he told the census taker, or what the census taker, > >> who may have already known the family, wrote down that particular day. > >> However, that name is the family nickname, not his actual given name. But > >> I know who he is because there's my mother, age 2, and her brothers, ages > >> 5, 4, and 3, and my great-grandparents and my grandmother, etc. It really > >> doesn't matter what he chose to call himself that day or what the census > >> taker wrote down. He was who he was. > >> > >> People used whatever they felt comfortable using on the day they were > >> using it. To analyze it further for some sort of sociological or > >> historical meaning is, in my view, quite pointless. > >> > >> Maggie Duffy > >> Manhattan and Beara > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Search, add, and share the web’s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports

So what you're saying is that 'O' is Mr., Ui is Mrs and Ni is Miss. Is there a word for Master or do the boys go as 'O's'? In the 1911 census my Great Grandmother signs herself as Sullivan; she is the head of the household as I presume my Great Grandfather had already died. Recently my Aunt has called herself Sullivan also, although my Mother always signed herself as O'Sullivan. I noticed when 'walking' around Bere Island via the 1911 census that only one family had retained the 'O' they being a family of O'Neill's. I'm rather proud of my 'O' status and will keep it !! Ann Berry (O'Sullivan-Og) -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Sullivan Sent: 18 July 2009 16:44 To: ppbrown@cox.net; beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Yes and no. In the Irish language all the men are Ó Súilleabháin, their wives are Uí Shúilleabháin (pronounced ee hoolivaun) and their daughters are Ní Shúilleabháin until they are married. As I think people have already noted, dropping the Ó, Úi and Ní is as much a simplification by English-speakers as anything else. Similarly with the simplified (from an English-speaking perspective) spelling. Brian Friel's play, Translations, is an excellent illustration of how this was done with Irish place names by English map-makers, showing how much of the beauty of the language vanished in the process. Paul Sullivan (Our O seems to have vanished between my great-grandfather Sean (Island) O Sullivan and my grandfather, Quinlan Sullivan) -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Phil Brown Sent: 17 July 2009 17:42 To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? I'm not sure I understand the O meaning "grandson". Wouldn't that mean that ALL the men would be O'Sullivans and the women would ALL be Sullivans? Thanks! Phil Brown (a Harrington) ---- Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: ============= Thanks Seamus, Not sure I explained my question well enough. John O'Sullivan is listed as such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'. The O was integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous accounts had always been 'attached'. That's why we were surprised I guess. Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous during the unrest in Ireland?? And yes, the family is/were strong Catholics. I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) Lisa -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of seamus O'More Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Lisa, "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their names as they used them.  Too much thought is unnessisary. Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. Slan Seamus --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by John and signed as such.  This is a new development and makes me wonder how I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents.  Do you think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? Lisa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes and no. In the Irish language all the men are Ó Súilleabháin, their wives are Uí Shúilleabháin (pronounced ee hoolivaun) and their daughters are Ní Shúilleabháin until they are married. As I think people have already noted, dropping the Ó, Úi and Ní is as much a simplification by English-speakers as anything else. Similarly with the simplified (from an English-speaking perspective) spelling. Brian Friel's play, Translations, is an excellent illustration of how this was done with Irish place names by English map-makers, showing how much of the beauty of the language vanished in the process. Paul Sullivan (Our O seems to have vanished between my great-grandfather Sean (Island) O Sullivan and my grandfather, Quinlan Sullivan) -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Phil Brown Sent: 17 July 2009 17:42 To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? I'm not sure I understand the O meaning "grandson". Wouldn't that mean that ALL the men would be O'Sullivans and the women would ALL be Sullivans? Thanks! Phil Brown (a Harrington) ---- Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: ============= Thanks Seamus, Not sure I explained my question well enough. John O'Sullivan is listed as such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'. The O was integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous accounts had always been 'attached'. That's why we were surprised I guess. Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous during the unrest in Ireland?? And yes, the family is/were strong Catholics. I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) Lisa -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of seamus O'More Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Lisa, "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their names as they used them.  Too much thought is unnessisary. Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. Slan Seamus --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by John and signed as such.  This is a new development and makes me wonder how I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents.  Do you think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? Lisa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi all you O'Sullivan's Does anyone have a line on the family of John O'Sullivan of Eskavaude, Reentrisk, Allihies Parish? I only know that he had a daughter Mary O'Sullivan Suonish born about 1820, married Michael Holland of Kilmackowen, Eyries Parish. She died in 1864. She had a sister Nora O'Sullivan who married Timothy (Tadhg) Murphy (Bawn). Any help would be greatly appreciated Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheChilts" <ad2wh@talktalk.net> To: <beara@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? So what you're saying is that 'O' is Mr., Ui is Mrs and Ni is Miss. Is there a word for Master or do the boys go as 'O's'? In the 1911 census my Great Grandmother signs herself as Sullivan; she is the head of the household as I presume my Great Grandfather had already died. Recently my Aunt has called herself Sullivan also, although my Mother always signed herself as O'Sullivan. I noticed when 'walking' around Bere Island via the 1911 census that only one family had retained the 'O' they being a family of O'Neill's. I'm rather proud of my 'O' status and will keep it !! Ann Berry (O'Sullivan-Og) -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Sullivan Sent: 18 July 2009 16:44 To: ppbrown@cox.net; beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Yes and no. In the Irish language all the men are Ó Súilleabháin, their wives are Uí Shúilleabháin (pronounced ee hoolivaun) and their daughters are Ní Shúilleabháin until they are married. As I think people have already noted, dropping the Ó, Úi and Ní is as much a simplification by English-speakers as anything else. Similarly with the simplified (from an English-speaking perspective) spelling. Brian Friel's play, Translations, is an excellent illustration of how this was done with Irish place names by English map-makers, showing how much of the beauty of the language vanished in the process. Paul Sullivan (Our O seems to have vanished between my great-grandfather Sean (Island) O Sullivan and my grandfather, Quinlan Sullivan) -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Phil Brown Sent: 17 July 2009 17:42 To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? I'm not sure I understand the O meaning "grandson". Wouldn't that mean that ALL the men would be O'Sullivans and the women would ALL be Sullivans? Thanks! Phil Brown (a Harrington) ---- Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: ============= Thanks Seamus, Not sure I explained my question well enough. John O'Sullivan is listed as such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'. The O was integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous accounts had always been 'attached'. That's why we were surprised I guess. Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous during the unrest in Ireland?? And yes, the family is/were strong Catholics. I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) Lisa -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of seamus O'More Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Lisa, "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their names as they used them. Too much thought is unnessisary. Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. Slan Seamus --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by John and signed as such. This is a new development and makes me wonder how I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents. Do you think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? Lisa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Please end my census ignorance! What is the 1909 census? I thought the censi? in Ireland, Canada and England were 1901 and 1911 while the US were in 1900 and 1910 Cheers Bob Radcliffe Toronto > From: bposullivan@smcm.edu > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:59:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > Some of my cousins, also in America, are Sullivans. My father, Patrick O'Sullivan, always assumed that his brothers dropped the O when they emigrated, but it turns out that my grandfather and great-grandfather (both named Cornelius); my grandfather even signed the 1909 census with that name. But my dad always thought his name was O'Sullivan! And he didn't think find the difference in names particualrly important or interesting--somehow, the subject apparently never came up until one of my cousins started to do some genealogical research. > > I get the impression that my family saw Sullivan and O'Sullivan as interchangeable, with the "O'" almost analogous to a middle initial that one sometimes includes in one's signature and sometimes omits. But could the "O'" possibly have been a kind of assertion of Irish identity on the part of my grandparents and on behalf of my father? My dad was the youngest in his family, and he was born in 1920; most of his siblings, if not all of them, were born before the Easter Rising. I wonder if my grandparents could have included the "O'" in their youngest son's name, and perhaps put in back in their own, in the spirit of the Irish independence movement and revival of Irish culture. It's probably a longshot, but I thought I'd put it out there--it would be kind of cool, I think. > > Brian > ________________________________________ > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lisa O [ohlisao@att.net] > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 11:30 AM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > Thanks Seamus, > > Not sure I explained my question well enough. John O'Sullivan is listed as > such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, > which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'. The O was > integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous > accounts had always been 'attached'. That's why we were surprised I guess. > Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous > during the unrest in Ireland?? And yes, the family is/were strong > Catholics. I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) > > Lisa > > -----Original Message----- > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of seamus O'More > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > Lisa, > "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and > using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it > in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it > back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they > did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where > it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers > you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in > 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their > names as they used them. Too much thought is unnessisary. > Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) > Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. > Slan > Seamus > > > --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: > > From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> > Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM > > Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. > I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by > John and signed as such. This is a new development and makes me wonder how > I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents. Do you > think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? > > > > Lisa > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Maggie, I think you are right on the money here. We can speculate all we like but our folk were often just plain inconsistent. My grandfather appears never to have used the O in his surname yet he addressed letters to my father in New Zealand with the O!! My cousins in Ireland do not use the O to this day but I do. Just preference really. (Although one cousin suggested that to be absolutely correct I should use the prefix 'ni' rather than the O.) I understand there were times when overt Irishness was a disadvantage but I suspect that everyone knew that SULLIVAN, SHEA, LEARY etc were Irish names anyway so the use of the O is not the only indicator. Great discussion. Regards, Patsy - New Zealand And yes I know, in Ireland Patsy is largely a man's name yet my father was keen for me to have it - I rest my case!! Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? >I think we're all being way too analytical about this. It's been my >experience that people kept or dropped the O' as they felt like it on >whatever day they happened to write it or say it. > > For example, my mother and her sister both came to the States. The family > name is O'Leary. My mother dropped it and signed herself or gave as her > maiden name Mary Leary (most of the time, unless when she decided to write > Mary O'Leary). Her sister consistently kept it and always signed > Katherine O'Leary. > > Similarly, my distant cousin, Noreen Sullivan was always Sullivan, even > though the family in Beara is O'Sullivan. > > What's more, very few people in Beara use the O' in everyday speech. Most > of the O'Sullivans there are simply referred to as Sullivan or by a branch > name. But everyone always knows that these names are preceded by the O' > formally. > > Another case in point. My grandfather's name was John O'Leary. On the > 1911 census he is listed not as "John O'Leary", but as "Sylvy Leary". > That's presumably what he told the census taker, or what the census taker, > who may have already known the family, wrote down that particular day. > However, that name is the family nickname, not his actual given name. But > I know who he is because there's my mother, age 2, and her brothers, ages > 5, 4, and 3, and my great-grandparents and my grandmother, etc. It really > doesn't matter what he chose to call himself that day or what the census > taker wrote down. He was who he was. > > People used whatever they felt comfortable using on the day they were > using it. To analyze it further for some sort of sociological or > historical meaning is, in my view, quite pointless. > > Maggie Duffy > Manhattan and Beara

The O or not the O. It can very confusing, if trying to do a family tree. In 1913 my grandfather, Frank Dalton Sullivan. a writer and publisher born in the U.S., added the O because he felt it was more dramatic. Not knowing he made the change, I hunted for O'Sullivan. After much searching I found that my great, great grandfather, a copper miner from Allihies, Beara, County Cork, was Denis Sullivan, and my family tree finally fit together. I understand that the O' was often removed because the English said: If you want to keep your land or feed your family you must take off the O'. Also that the O' means descended from and the Suil in Suileabhan is pronounced Soole. (?) Dalton O'Sullivan San Francisco, CA On 7/17/09 4:11 PM, "Patricia O'Shea" <pkoshea@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > Hi Maggie, I think you are right on the money here. We can speculate all we > like but our folk were often just plain inconsistent. > > My grandfather appears never to have used the O in his surname yet he > addressed letters to my father in New Zealand with the O!! > > My cousins in Ireland do not use the O to this day but I do. Just preference > really. (Although one cousin suggested that to be absolutely correct I > should use the prefix 'ni' rather than the O.) > > I understand there were times when overt Irishness was a disadvantage but I > suspect that everyone knew that SULLIVAN, SHEA, LEARY etc were Irish names > anyway so the use of the O is not the only indicator. > > Great discussion. > Regards, Patsy - New Zealand > And yes I know, in Ireland Patsy is largely a man's name yet my father was > keen for me to have it - I rest my case!! > > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 7:25 AM > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > >> I think we're all being way too analytical about this. It's been my >> experience that people kept or dropped the O' as they felt like it on >> whatever day they happened to write it or say it. >> >> For example, my mother and her sister both came to the States. The family >> name is O'Leary. My mother dropped it and signed herself or gave as her >> maiden name Mary Leary (most of the time, unless when she decided to write >> Mary O'Leary). Her sister consistently kept it and always signed >> Katherine O'Leary. >> >> Similarly, my distant cousin, Noreen Sullivan was always Sullivan, even >> though the family in Beara is O'Sullivan. >> >> What's more, very few people in Beara use the O' in everyday speech. Most >> of the O'Sullivans there are simply referred to as Sullivan or by a branch >> name. But everyone always knows that these names are preceded by the O' >> formally. >> >> Another case in point. My grandfather's name was John O'Leary. On the >> 1911 census he is listed not as "John O'Leary", but as "Sylvy Leary". >> That's presumably what he told the census taker, or what the census taker, >> who may have already known the family, wrote down that particular day. >> However, that name is the family nickname, not his actual given name. But >> I know who he is because there's my mother, age 2, and her brothers, ages >> 5, 4, and 3, and my great-grandparents and my grandmother, etc. It really >> doesn't matter what he chose to call himself that day or what the census >> taker wrote down. He was who he was. >> >> People used whatever they felt comfortable using on the day they were >> using it. To analyze it further for some sort of sociological or >> historical meaning is, in my view, quite pointless. >> >> Maggie Duffy >> Manhattan and Beara > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Sorry--I meant 1911. Brian ________________________________ From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of rradclif@sympatico.ca [rradclif@sympatico.ca] Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:00 AM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Please end my census ignorance! What is the 1909 census? I thought the censi? in Ireland, Canada and England were 1901 and 1911 while the US were in 1900 and 1910 Cheers Bob Radcliffe Toronto > From: bposullivan@smcm.edu > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:59:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > Some of my cousins, also in America, are Sullivans. My father, Patrick O'Sullivan, always assumed that his brothers dropped the O when they emigrated, but it turns out that my grandfather and great-grandfather (both named Cornelius); my grandfather even signed the 1909 census with that name. But my dad always thought his name was O'Sullivan! And he didn't think find the difference in names particualrly important or interesting--somehow, the subject apparently never came up until one of my cousins started to do some genealogical research. > > I get the impression that my family saw Sullivan and O'Sullivan as interchangeable, with the "O'" almost analogous to a middle initial that one sometimes includes in one's signature and sometimes omits. But could the "O'" possibly have been a kind of assertion of Irish identity on the part of my grandparents and on behalf of my father? My dad was the youngest in his family, and he was born in 1920; most of his siblings, if not all of them, were born before the Easter Rising. I wonder if my grandparents could have included the "O'" in their youngest son's name, and perhaps put in back in their own, in the spirit of the Irish independence movement and revival of Irish culture. It's probably a longshot, but I thought I'd put it out there--it would be kind of cool, I think. > > Brian > ________________________________________ > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lisa O [ohlisao@att.net] > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 11:30 AM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > Thanks Seamus, > > Not sure I explained my question well enough. John O'Sullivan is listed as > such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, > which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'. The O was > integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous > accounts had always been 'attached'. That's why we were surprised I guess. > Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous > during the unrest in Ireland?? And yes, the family is/were strong > Catholics. I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) > > Lisa > > -----Original Message----- > From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of seamus O'More > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > > Lisa, > "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and > using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it > in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it > back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they > did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where > it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers > you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in > 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their > names as they used them. Too much thought is unnessisary. > Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) > Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. > Slan > Seamus > > > --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: > > From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> > Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? > To: beara@rootsweb.com > Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM > > Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. > I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by > John and signed as such. This is a new development and makes me wonder how > I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents. Do you > think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? > > > > Lisa > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The discussion of names has been very interesting.Seamus mentioned  women and I thought of my gr- grandmother, Annie Hanley who came to Fall River, Mass.from Beara in 1870 or so.She later married  Michael Sullivan but was always known as Annie Hanley.My Father knew her well and always refered to her as Annie Hanley. When I sent for her obituary from the Fall River paper it called her Annie Sullivan and I thought I had the wrong person! Perhaps she used Hanley at least informally  since Sullivan was so common or perhaps she was just a strong feminist!Jane Sullivan ________________________________ From: seamus O'More <seamusjames@yahoo.com> To: ppbrown@cox.net; beara@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 8:54:15 PM Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? ok when the women folk married one would for the point of saying where she came from use "nee O'Sullivan" being her fathers name O'Sullivan. Like Mary Moore nee O'Sullivan. Nice way to honor the family ay? Plus one would see she was the Mary Moore nee O'Sullivan not the Mary Moore nee McKeever who also married a John O'Sullivan in 1874. I haven't read all the post's so I just know someone out there has already answered this. If so please excuse me for repenting and thanks for answering Slan Seamus --- On Fri, 7/17/09, Phil Brown <ppbrown@cox.net> wrote: From: Phil Brown <ppbrown@cox.net> Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 9:41 AM I'm not sure I understand the O meaning "grandson".  Wouldn't that mean that ALL the men would be O'Sullivans and the women would ALL be Sullivans? Thanks! Phil Brown (a Harrington) ---- Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: ============= Thanks Seamus, Not sure I explained my question well enough.  John O'Sullivan is listed as such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'.  The O was integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous accounts had always been 'attached'.  That's why we were surprised I guess. Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous during the unrest in Ireland??  And yes, the family is/were strong Catholics.  I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) Lisa -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of seamus O'More Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Lisa, "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their names as they used them.  Too much thought is unnessisary. Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. Slan Seamus --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by John and signed as such.  This is a new development and makes me wonder how I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents.  Do you think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? Lisa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message       ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message       ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nice Bill! Variant forms of names were used all over the place. Try mine Moore. Heck with 13 different lines from different country's. Whew!  I could be German, French, english, Scottish, heck even Irish. Then what happens if by chance someone married a Moore who was a Muir or Moar, but spelled their name Moore. Someone say DNA. O'Sulliban? Slan Seamus --- On Fri, 7/17/09, Bill Mulligan <billmulligan@murray-ky.net> wrote: From: Bill Mulligan <billmulligan@murray-ky.net> Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 10:06 AM Until quite recently, individuals answered a census taker's questions and the census taker recorded their answers.  Usually one person per household was consulted and in some cases neighbors supplied the information.  The individual being "counted" did not write on the form. The census takers were almost always middle class men.  I have seen census forms in the US where areas with a heavily Irish population were marked --"too dangerous to canvas" in the nineteenth century.  I have also seen the O in Irish surnames recorded as a middle initial with a period after it on census forms in the US and on other official forms in the US and the UK.  This is also why names, both surnames and forenames are often spelled in variant forms from form to form and people sometimes gave inaccurate information, especially about ability to read and write and marital status. They wanted to avoid embarrassing themselves by admitting illiteracy, for example, to a well-dressed, middle class and possibly condescending census taker. The census schedules are not perfect -- just track people's ages from census to census and you'll be convinced.    Sometimes the presence or absence of O and Mac, in its variant forms, can be a hint as to when emigration took place because there was a time when the use of O and Mac was dropped and people would have had a practice of using the "legal" form with officials.  Resumption began with the rise of the Gaelic league in 1893, but was uneven.  Edward MacLysaght's various books on Irish surnames discuss this and are very useful.  If you trace far enough back there are a variety of English forms for Gaelic names.  O Maolagain, for example, can also be Milligan, Molohan, or Baldwin. (O Maolagain is generally translated as descendant of the Maol (bald one).) claiamhain isteach had a mildly pejorative meaning.  Bill Mulligan William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

ok when the women folk married one would for the point of saying where she came from use "nee O'Sullivan" being her fathers name O'Sullivan. Like Mary Moore nee O'Sullivan. Nice way to honor the family ay? Plus one would see she was the Mary Moore nee O'Sullivan not the Mary Moore nee McKeever who also married a John O'Sullivan in 1874. I haven't read all the post's so I just know someone out there has already answered this. If so please excuse me for repenting and thanks for answering Slan Seamus --- On Fri, 7/17/09, Phil Brown <ppbrown@cox.net> wrote: From: Phil Brown <ppbrown@cox.net> Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 9:41 AM I'm not sure I understand the O meaning "grandson".  Wouldn't that mean that ALL the men would be O'Sullivans and the women would ALL be Sullivans? Thanks! Phil Brown (a Harrington) ---- Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: ============= Thanks Seamus, Not sure I explained my question well enough.  John O'Sullivan is listed as such in most records, but he signed himself just Sullivan on the census, which is the first time we'd seen the name without the O'.  The O was integral to the family in the US and never dropped, and from all previous accounts had always been 'attached'.  That's why we were surprised I guess. Maybe it had more to do with 'fitting in', or rather, being less conspicuous during the unrest in Ireland??  And yes, the family is/were strong Catholics.  I do see your point though, as I have used more than one name :) Lisa -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of seamus O'More Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:32 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Lisa, "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their names as they used them.  Too much thought is unnessisary. Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. Slan Seamus --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by John and signed as such.  This is a new development and makes me wonder how I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents.  Do you think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? Lisa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message       ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think we're all being way too analytical about this. It's been my experience that people kept or dropped the O' as they felt like it on whatever day they happened to write it or say it. For example, my mother and her sister both came to the States. The family name is O'Leary. My mother dropped it and signed herself or gave as her maiden name Mary Leary (most of the time, unless when she decided to write Mary O'Leary). Her sister consistently kept it and always signed Katherine O'Leary. Similarly, my distant cousin, Noreen Sullivan was always Sullivan, even though the family in Beara is O'Sullivan. What's more, very few people in Beara use the O' in everyday speech. Most of the O'Sullivans there are simply referred to as Sullivan or by a branch name. But everyone always knows that these names are preceded by the O' formally. Another case in point. My grandfather's name was John O'Leary. On the 1911 census he is listed not as "John O'Leary", but as "Sylvy Leary". That's presumably what he told the census taker, or what the census taker, who may have already known the family, wrote down that particular day. However, that name is the family nickname, not his actual given name. But I know who he is because there's my mother, age 2, and her brothers, ages 5, 4, and 3, and my great-grandparents and my grandmother, etc. It really doesn't matter what he chose to call himself that day or what the census taker wrote down. He was who he was. People used whatever they felt comfortable using on the day they were using it. To analyze it further for some sort of sociological or historical meaning is, in my view, quite pointless. Maggie Duffy Manhattan and Beara

Oh, any confusion was only mine. I'm glad there doesn't seem to be a reason to think that the signature is inauthentic; I never knew my grandfather, and seeing his signature felt like a kind of contact. And I guess his signature at least tells me how he spelled his name--that day, anyway. :) Thanks again, Brian ________________________________________ From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mulligan [billmulligan@murray-ky.net] Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 2:58 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? I was referring to the information, not the signature. Sorry for the confusion. Bill William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of O'Sullivan, Brian P Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:46 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Thanks, Bill. I notice that the 1909 Irish census form has what is labelled as "Signature of Head of Family," to the right of the "Signature of Enumerator" (on the "Household Return (Form A)," one of the image files on the online return).When you say the individual being counted didn't write on the form, do you mean that the enumerator or someone else signed on the head of household's behalf? Brian ________________________________________ From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mulligan [billmulligan@murray-ky.net] Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:06 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Until quite recently, individuals answered a census taker's questions and the census taker recorded their answers. Usually one person per household was consulted and in some cases neighbors supplied the information. The individual being "counted" did not write on the form. The census takers were almost always middle class men. I have seen census forms in the US where areas with a heavily Irish population were marked --"too dangerous to canvas" in the nineteenth century. I have also seen the O in Irish surnames recorded as a middle initial with a period after it on census forms in the US and on other official forms in the US and the UK. This is also why names, both surnames and forenames are often spelled in variant forms from form to form and people sometimes gave inaccurate information, especially about ability to read and write and marital status. They wanted to avoid embarrassing themselves by admitting illiteracy, for example, to a well-dressed, middle class and possibly condescending census taker. The census schedules are not perfect -- just track people's ages from census to census and you'll be convinced. Sometimes the presence or absence of O and Mac, in its variant forms, can be a hint as to when emigration took place because there was a time when the use of O and Mac was dropped and people would have had a practice of using the "legal" form with officials. Resumption began with the rise of the Gaelic league in 1893, but was uneven. Edward MacLysaght's various books on Irish surnames discuss this and are very useful. If you trace far enough back there are a variety of English forms for Gaelic names. O Maolagain, for example, can also be Milligan, Molohan, or Baldwin. (O Maolagain is generally translated as descendant of the Maol (bald one).) claiamhain isteach had a mildly pejorative meaning. Bill Mulligan William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, Bill. I notice that the 1909 Irish census form has what is labelled as "Signature of Head of Family," to the right of the "Signature of Enumerator" (on the "Household Return (Form A)," one of the image files on the online return).When you say the individual being counted didn't write on the form, do you mean that the enumerator or someone else signed on the head of household's behalf? Brian ________________________________________ From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mulligan [billmulligan@murray-ky.net] Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:06 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Until quite recently, individuals answered a census taker's questions and the census taker recorded their answers. Usually one person per household was consulted and in some cases neighbors supplied the information. The individual being "counted" did not write on the form. The census takers were almost always middle class men. I have seen census forms in the US where areas with a heavily Irish population were marked --"too dangerous to canvas" in the nineteenth century. I have also seen the O in Irish surnames recorded as a middle initial with a period after it on census forms in the US and on other official forms in the US and the UK. This is also why names, both surnames and forenames are often spelled in variant forms from form to form and people sometimes gave inaccurate information, especially about ability to read and write and marital status. They wanted to avoid embarrassing themselves by admitting illiteracy, for example, to a well-dressed, middle class and possibly condescending census taker. The census schedules are not perfect -- just track people's ages from census to census and you'll be convinced. Sometimes the presence or absence of O and Mac, in its variant forms, can be a hint as to when emigration took place because there was a time when the use of O and Mac was dropped and people would have had a practice of using the "legal" form with officials. Resumption began with the rise of the Gaelic league in 1893, but was uneven. Edward MacLysaght's various books on Irish surnames discuss this and are very useful. If you trace far enough back there are a variety of English forms for Gaelic names. O Maolagain, for example, can also be Milligan, Molohan, or Baldwin. (O Maolagain is generally translated as descendant of the Maol (bald one).) claiamhain isteach had a mildly pejorative meaning. Bill Mulligan William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the insight Bill. While John may not have actually filled in the census, he did sign it (which was lovely to see and quite unexpected) and did so as Sullivan. And, seems it actually noted he filled it in, though I am probably mistaken. We know that his son John fought in the 1916 rebellion, but do not know how the rest of the family felt about these activities, though he is mentioned as the first "famous" person in "Bere Island, A Short History" by Ted O'Sullivan. I'm assuming, based on the memorial erected in the Castletownbere square he was considered a famous hero, rather than 'infamous'. It would be nice to find or hear more about this history (which I have read much about) as it pertains to our family and how this situation may apply to the "O", if at all. LOL, yes, I am VERY aware of the wild inaccuracies of many censuses. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I believe the baptism certificates I seek, will most likely, show O'Sullivan. Slainte! Lisa -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mulligan Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:06 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Until quite recently, individuals answered a census taker's questions and the census taker recorded their answers. Usually one person per household was consulted and in some cases neighbors supplied the information. The individual being "counted" did not write on the form. The census takers were almost always middle class men. I have seen census forms in the US where areas with a heavily Irish population were marked --"too dangerous to canvas" in the nineteenth century. I have also seen the O in Irish surnames recorded as a middle initial with a period after it on census forms in the US and on other official forms in the US and the UK. This is also why names, both surnames and forenames are often spelled in variant forms from form to form and people sometimes gave inaccurate information, especially about ability to read and write and marital status. They wanted to avoid embarrassing themselves by admitting illiteracy, for example, to a well-dressed, middle class and possibly condescending census taker. The census schedules are not perfect -- just track people's ages from census to census and you'll be convinced. Sometimes the presence or absence of O and Mac, in its variant forms, can be a hint as to when emigration took place because there was a time when the use of O and Mac was dropped and people would have had a practice of using the "legal" form with officials. Resumption began with the rise of the Gaelic league in 1893, but was uneven. Edward MacLysaght's various books on Irish surnames discuss this and are very useful. If you trace far enough back there are a variety of English forms for Gaelic names. O Maolagain, for example, can also be Milligan, Molohan, or Baldwin. (O Maolagain is generally translated as descendant of the Maol (bald one).) claiamhain isteach had a mildly pejorative meaning. Bill Mulligan William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was referring to the information, not the signature. Sorry for the confusion. Bill William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of O'Sullivan, Brian P Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:46 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Thanks, Bill. I notice that the 1909 Irish census form has what is labelled as "Signature of Head of Family," to the right of the "Signature of Enumerator" (on the "Household Return (Form A)," one of the image files on the online return).When you say the individual being counted didn't write on the form, do you mean that the enumerator or someone else signed on the head of household's behalf? Brian ________________________________________ From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mulligan [billmulligan@murray-ky.net] Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:06 PM To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Until quite recently, individuals answered a census taker's questions and the census taker recorded their answers. Usually one person per household was consulted and in some cases neighbors supplied the information. The individual being "counted" did not write on the form. The census takers were almost always middle class men. I have seen census forms in the US where areas with a heavily Irish population were marked --"too dangerous to canvas" in the nineteenth century. I have also seen the O in Irish surnames recorded as a middle initial with a period after it on census forms in the US and on other official forms in the US and the UK. This is also why names, both surnames and forenames are often spelled in variant forms from form to form and people sometimes gave inaccurate information, especially about ability to read and write and marital status. They wanted to avoid embarrassing themselves by admitting illiteracy, for example, to a well-dressed, middle class and possibly condescending census taker. The census schedules are not perfect -- just track people's ages from census to census and you'll be convinced. Sometimes the presence or absence of O and Mac, in its variant forms, can be a hint as to when emigration took place because there was a time when the use of O and Mac was dropped and people would have had a practice of using the "legal" form with officials. Resumption began with the rise of the Gaelic league in 1893, but was uneven. Edward MacLysaght's various books on Irish surnames discuss this and are very useful. If you trace far enough back there are a variety of English forms for Gaelic names. O Maolagain, for example, can also be Milligan, Molohan, or Baldwin. (O Maolagain is generally translated as descendant of the Maol (bald one).) claiamhain isteach had a mildly pejorative meaning. Bill Mulligan William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D. Professor of History Graduate Program Coordinator Murray State University Murray KY 42071-3341 USA Office: 1-270-809-6571 Fax: 1-270-809-6587 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Guys, My 'Irish expert' has explained to me that where 'Mac' precedes a name it stands for 'son of' and that the 'O' actually means 'descendant of' rather than just grandson. Also claiamhain isteach means 'son in-law'. You will notice that where this is stated, there is no male member in the family that he has married into. Have I got this right Jim ?? Regards - Ann Berry -----Original Message----- From: beara-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:beara-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Barnes Sent: 17 July 2009 05:51 To: beara@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Hi, You seem to be knowledgeable, and though I don't want to show my ignorance I am going to ask. Could you tell me what they mean when they say he went "cliamyhain isteach" to Catherine or whomever of some other town. I see this several times in Riobards book of Eyeries. when talking about someone marries a lady from another town. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "seamus O'More" <seamusjames@yahoo.com> To: <beara@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? Lisa, "O" means grandson. The O'Sullivan's were strong Catholic's in Co. Cork and using the "O" meant it. Where they came over to the state's they dropped it in most case's seemed easier to fit in. If they went back they added it back. In hunting the family lines down use what they did at the time they did. It is what they called themselves. If you have put the "O" back where it belongs then that's you not them. Names are just that names. Like numbers you 1 is 1 and 2 is 2. Just how it is. O'Sullivan in 1897 is O'Sullivan in 1897.... Sullivan in 1897 is Sullivan in 1897. See easy ay? Write down their names as they used them. Too much thought is unnessisary. Seamus O'More (aka James Moore) Pepole know I am the James Moore who calles himself Seamus O'More. Slan Seamus --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> wrote: From: Lisa O <ohlisao@att.net> Subject: [BEARA] O'Sullivan or Sullivan? To: beara@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 3:13 PM Anyone have any a suggestion to how I should note my family on our Gedcom. I found our O'Sullvan's listed on the 1901 census as Sullivan, written by John and signed as such. This is a new development and makes me wonder how I should proceed to search for John's father Roger and grandparents. Do you think I should try to find Roger Sullivan now?? Lisa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BEARA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message