Has anyone found the original passenger list for the Carlos Magnus arrived in NY on 13 June 1853 from LeHavre? Irequested a microfilm at the library but for some reason they were not able to get it. Thanks Joan

Hi Stefan! Thanks very much for the clarifications. I liked the map very much. I bookmarked it and also printed it. I also want to take a moment to thank you for being the impetus for the creation of Marcella Dawson's "Bavaria FAQ" website. I think the website is quite useful in many ways and we are lucky to have such a resource in conjunction with the list. Hope all is well with you in Vietnam! Joanne

Just another note on High/Low German... From what I gathered in College German classes, High/Low refers to geographical elevation, so Low German is actually the general dialect spoken in Northern Germany (the plains region) and High would naturally be the upper elevation areas (Alps, etc.) Kristie > -----Message d'origine----- > De: JOPARMLEY@aol.com [mailto:JOPARMLEY@aol.com] > Date: mardi 28 mars 2000 04:46 > À: BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com > Objet: Re: [BAVARIA] High German > > > Hi Tom, > > Thanks for the bit of levity on the question of High German and > Low German! > You gave me my chuckle for the day....... > > Joanne > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > Going on Vacation? Longer than 5 days? Please unsubscribe > Just click this and send it. It is all set up for you. > mailto:Bavaria-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >

Hello; I am looking for connection to the following families: MANGER Johann Michael Manger b. abt 1705 (unknown location) marriage 1 to Anna Maria Elizabeth ? d. 1757 marriage 2 to Juliana Wilhelmina von Ballhorn CHILDREN (all born in Markt Bibart, Bavaria) Marie Sophie b. 1726 Ignatz Joseph, b. 1727 Johann Phillip, b. 1738 Maria Eleanore, b. 1760 Juliana Carolina, b. 1763 Johann Karl Georg, b. 1768 Franz Andreas, b. 1769 Andreas Dionysius, b. 1772 Johann Karl Georg emigrated to central Bohemia around 1790 where he married Barbara Cumpelik of Bakow in 1791. von Ballhorn/ von Eckloffstein Joachim Ulrich von Ballhorn married Cordula Maria Dorothea von Eckloffstein about 1720 and lived in Mühlhausen, Bavaria. They had at least one child, Juliana WIlhelmina I would appreciate any leads on this group. Tim Jachowski

Hi Tom- We found our Louisville-Bavarian ancestors in "Germans to America". Have you tried that? If you are lucky it might give the town they came from. This website lists many libraries, etc. that hold Germans to America. http://www.genealogy.net/gene/www/emig/gta-holdings.html They (the BRENNERs) emigrated in 1854 and came from Lauterecken. They were Catholic also and some are buried at Cave Hill Cemetery. The cemetery records are available on microfilm from the LDS Family History Centers, as are many Louisville City Directories. Another source for Louisville German records is the Filson Club. http://www.filsonclub.org/ -- Marilyn Mills Hesse marilynhesse@home.com Windsor, Connecticut, USA Researching: Pennsylvania: Beaver Co.: CRAIGHEAD/LYNCH/MOODY/ROBINSON Bucks Co: DENNIS/LEWIS Crawford Co:COLBOURNE/DENNIS/HAMILTON/ McQUISTON/MILLS/WILLIAMS/WILSON Mercer Co: LONG/MILLS/MOON/MOORE/ROBINSON - New Jersey: DENNIS/WILLIAMS Louisville, KY and Germany: BRENNER/GLASS/GUNTERMANN/ HESSE/MUELLER N.Ireland: Co. Donegal:HAMILTON/WILSON Co. Tyrone: MILLS/MOON/MOORE Co. Antrim: LYNCH/McCAGHEN/McQUISTON/MOODY

Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:47:39 PST Opps.......I forgot to include the German page: I hope someone out there can help me out, namely Stefan Probst. The following German passage is about the dialect in Bavaria from one of the web sites recommended. My problem is that my ancestors and current relatives live in the Fichtelgebirge area near the Czech border. I assume that Franconian is spoken there (see map) But in the following passage it mentions the towns of Wunsiedel and Marketrdwitz which exactly where they live. Could someone translate this passage and tell me what German dialect is spoken in these two towns of Wunsidel & Marketredwiz? Thanks so much, I am confused. Am I Bavarian or Franconian. Gerald Kisabeth Der bairische Sprachraum mit seinen alemannischen und ostfränkischen Nachbargebieten (nach König). Karte: Hugendubel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vor allem die Sprachgrenzen zum alemannischen und fränkischen Raum folgen nicht immer den politischen Grenzen. Beispiele dafür: - Im Altlandkreis Aichach im Regierungsbezirk Schwaben wird Bairisch geredet; - dafür spricht man am oberbayerischen Lechrain ein Bairisch mit alemannischen Anklängen; - im Nordwesten, z.B. im Landkreis Neumarkt, wurde die Sprache, wegen der Nähe zum Großraum Nürnberg, fränkisch gefärbt; - im Norden gehören auch Teile Oberfrankens, um Wunsiedel und Marktredwitz, zum bairischen Sprachraum; - und auch im Südtiroler Vinschgau ist ein alemannischer Einfluß unüberhörbar ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

I hope someone out there can help me out, namely Stefan Probst. The following German passage is about the dialect in Bavaria from one of the web sites recommended. My problem is that my ancestors and current relatives live in the Fichtelgebirge area near the Czech border. I assume that Franconian is spoken there (see map) But in the following passage it mentions the towns of Wunsiedel and Marketrdwitz which exactly where they live. Could someone translate this passage and tell me what German dialect is spoken in these two towns of Wunsidel & Marketredwiz? Thanks so much, I am confused. Am I Bavarian or Franconian. Gerald Kisabeth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Sabine made very nice explanations. I would like to add: 1. Dialects spoken in Bavaria are not only Bavarian and Franconian, but also Swabian and "Allgaeerian" (Allgäuerisch/Allgaierisch). The latter one being an Alemannic dialect. Notes: in German, when you talk about the state, you write "Bayern", when you talk about the tribe, the language, you write "Baiern", i.e. in this case it would be "Bairischer Dialekt" - what of course again is a group of several dialects. 2. There is quite a difference of the terms between linguistic use and common use. The "Hochdeutsch" ("High German") means for a linguist a *group* of dialects, which includes even the Bavarian dialects (!!!), but means in common language only this kind of dialect, that is spoken around Hannover, and what has been declared as the "official" German language, i.e. the "Book language" as Sabine writes. 3. The "High", "Middle", "Low" does not refer to the positions on the map, but to geographic height, i.e. the "High, Upper" is in mountain areas, i.e. South, whereas the "Low" is in flat land, i.e. North. 4. A map about the dialects is at http://www2.genealogy.net/gene/ghlp/dialekt.gif Cheers, Stefan At 01:20 28.03.00 +0100, Sabine wrote: ------------------------- > Hi > > I am from Bavaria myself and no, we do not speak "low german", we speak > bavarian (or franconian in my case). It is right that "High German" is > taught in schools and all kids in Bavaria do learn it (otherwise we would > never be able to understand our fellow germans from other areas and vice > versa), but "high German" is a literal translation. It is actual "book > German", meaning it is the language as it is written in books and spoken by > newsreaders. German dialects are very strong and usually have their own > grammar and words. They are more like different languages (my friend from > Hamburg cannot actually understand what I say when I talk to my mum - very > handy indeed). > In some areas of Germany the dialect is exceptionally strong (i.e. cologne > and to some extent the southern countries). The dialects as such are not > taught in schools and therfore vary from area to area (in some cases from > town to town), just to make things easier for people trying to learn the > language.... > Everybody in Germany will be able to undersatnd "Book German", but not all > people are actually able to speak it, or at least not to the full extent. A > bit similar to Swiss-German: All german speakers in Switzerland understand > Book-German, but they are not always able to reply in that language > (allthough they try, my friend still doesn't know what they are saying and > it sounds perfectly understandable to me). > On top of that there is actually a language up north (close to the danish > borders) which is called "Platt-Deutsch" and that is actually a different > language. > In general one can say, the further one goes away from the Hannover area in > either direction, the stronger the dialect will be with the exception of > Cologne and Plattdeutsch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <JOPARMLEY@aol.com> > To: <BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 9:30 PM > Subject: [BAVARIA] High German/Low German > > > > Hi all, > > > > I was wondering, might anyone know if people from Bavaria spoke Low > German? > > I'm guessing that the high and low refer to the geographic location of a > > place, and since Bavaria is in Southern Germany I'm inclined to think > > Bavarian people spoke/speak Low German. Am I right or wrong? > > > > Thanks for any help, > > Joanne > > > > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > > Sister or Brother, > > Can you spare $10 dollars to support Rootsweb? > > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html#personal > > > > > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > Going on Vacation? Longer than 5 days? Please unsubscribe > Just click this and send it. It is all set up for you. > mailto:Bavaria-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > >

Hi I am from Bavaria myself and no, we do not speak "low german", we speak bavarian (or franconian in my case). It is right that "High German" is taught in schools and all kids in Bavaria do learn it (otherwise we would never be able to understand our fellow germans from other areas and vice versa), but "high German" is a literal translation. It is actual "book German", meaning it is the language as it is written in books and spoken by newsreaders. German dialects are very strong and usually have their own grammar and words. They are more like different languages (my friend from Hamburg cannot actually understand what I say when I talk to my mum - very handy indeed). In some areas of Germany the dialect is exceptionally strong (i.e. cologne and to some extent the southern countries). The dialects as such are not taught in schools and therfore vary from area to area (in some cases from town to town), just to make things easier for people trying to learn the language.... Everybody in Germany will be able to undersatnd "Book German", but not all people are actually able to speak it, or at least not to the full extent. A bit similar to Swiss-German: All german speakers in Switzerland understand Book-German, but they are not always able to reply in that language (allthough they try, my friend still doesn't know what they are saying and it sounds perfectly understandable to me). On top of that there is actually a language up north (close to the danish borders) which is called "Platt-Deutsch" and that is actually a different language. In general one can say, the further one goes away from the Hannover area in either direction, the stronger the dialect will be with the exception of Cologne and Plattdeutsch. ----- Original Message ----- From: <JOPARMLEY@aol.com> To: <BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 9:30 PM Subject: [BAVARIA] High German/Low German > Hi all, > > I was wondering, might anyone know if people from Bavaria spoke Low German? > I'm guessing that the high and low refer to the geographic location of a > place, and since Bavaria is in Southern Germany I'm inclined to think > Bavarian people spoke/speak Low German. Am I right or wrong? > > Thanks for any help, > Joanne > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > Sister or Brother, > Can you spare $10 dollars to support Rootsweb? > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html#personal > >

Marie MULLER was born in Alsace France in 1849/50 to Barbara VOGEL & John MULLER. Marie had a daughter also named Marie MULLER in 1872 born in Germany.(maybe Waldfischbach). I do not know if she married a Muller, She came to the NYC in 1875 to marry my grgrgrf Peter LUTZ .His Mother was Magdelena SAND(t) MANGES. He had been married twice in Clausen Bavaria and had 4 children with him in NYC. Family story says Marie was related to one of his deceased wives. Their maiden names were Elizabeth ANKNER & AnnMarie ULLRICH Every record I have on Marie states born Alsace France.. Marie brought her daughter with her and a will I have located ,states her married name as Mary GOLSONG.. Peter and Marie had 5 sons-- John ,Peter(my grandfather) ,Nick, Frank, & Vincent. Their daughter Kate MAGNUSSEN had one daughter named Helen HOFFMAN..all born NYC Does anyone recognize any of these names.? I have found out much about Peter Lutz through the church book in Clausen.Pfalz Bayern--after 1870 there are no entries on his family I believe I found Marie's daughter's 1872 Roman Catholic christening record in Waldfishbach but cannot order the LDS film because our FHC is closing for renovations end of month. Any help would be appreciated. Florence Lutz NJ

Hi Tom, Thanks for the bit of levity on the question of High German and Low German! You gave me my chuckle for the day....... Joanne

Joanne: A friend of mine moved to Bavaria from Dresden as a child and remembers that the Bavarian dialect was very different from what she had learned to speak. Click links below. Good descriptions of the various dialects/Germanic languages. The first link has a map showing the separation of the dialects. http://www.german.about.com/education/german/library/weekly/aa051898.htm http://www.german.about.com/education/german/msubdialect.htm http://softrat.home.mindspring.com/germanic.html Kathleen Schilling kschilli@hotmail.com >I was wondering, might anyone know if people from Bavaria spoke Low German? >I'm guessing that the high and low refer to the geographic location of a >place, and since Bavaria is in Southern Germany I'm inclined to think >Bavarian people spoke/speak Low German. Am I right or wrong? > >Thanks for any help, >Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

High German I believe is taught in the schools. Judy ----- Original Message ----- From: <Minipux@aol.com> To: <BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: March 27, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [BAVARIA] High German/Low German > My gramma often told how the kids who learned german in school couldn't > understand her and visa-versa. Can't remember now if she said she spoke high > or low. Had always wondered what that meant. > > Lita > > For every inch you learn, there's a mile beyond it! > See some of my accomplishments! > <A > HREF="http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/pux4/index.html">Pux's Page</A> > http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/pux4/index.html > > <A > HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=89621">My PhotoPoint Album</A > > > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=89621 > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > Sister or Brother, > Can you spare $10 dollars to support Rootsweb? > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html#personal >

My gramma often told how the kids who learned german in school couldn't understand her and visa-versa. Can't remember now if she said she spoke high or low. Had always wondered what that meant. Lita For every inch you learn, there's a mile beyond it! See some of my accomplishments! <A HREF="http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/pux4/index.html">Pux's Page</A> http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/pux4/index.html <A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=89621">My PhotoPoint Album</A > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=89621

<<and since Bavaria is in Southern Germany I'm inclined to think Bavarian people spoke/speak Low German. Am I right or wrong? >> My mother used to say her people spoke High German, they came from W. Prussia and my fathers people spoke Low German from Kempton. Although my mother understood all dialects. Ann Victoria

Dear Listers, I was told by my German relatives that high German was spoken by those who were over 5'11", and low German was spoken by those under 5' tall. One can easily make a case for middle German, in these circumstances. Until we figure this out, I am looking for Andreas and Adam Sebastian who came to America (Louisville, KY) from Bavaria about 1857. The Ohio River flooded in 1937 and wiped out all court house records, so I have no idea whom they no longer swore allegiance to. Their Catholic Church in Louisville lost or threw out its burial book for 1874, when Adam, my ggf, died. I personally inspected the files, so I know it is not in its place. Perhaps if there were a Bavarian census in 1850, I could find these men because they were born about 1830. I believe they spoke low German, but I am six feet tall, blond and blue-eyed. I speak High English. Tom the bewildered

Hi all, I was wondering, might anyone know if people from Bavaria spoke Low German? I'm guessing that the high and low refer to the geographic location of a place, and since Bavaria is in Southern Germany I'm inclined to think Bavarian people spoke/speak Low German. Am I right or wrong? Thanks for any help, Joanne

I understand that the state of Baden from the 1850's through 1914 required citizens desiring to leave Baden were required to register with the Baden government before leaving Baden. It has lots of good information about all family members, where they lived, etc. It can be a tremendous help in researching ancestors Does anyone know if Bavaria did the same thing - and if so, where can I write to find my elusive Benedickt BRAUN, born about 1846, emigrated 1866-69 to Chicago. Sharon in Surprise, AZ

Hi, I'm searching for addition information, parents, etc on my gg-grandfather Casper Bleem (Bluem in German, born in Bavaria in 1822. He married Theresa Hermann, b. 1823. Thank you Ken. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Hello Patty, I am also interested in the surname HEYL or HEIL as a side-line. I am vaguely aware a the HEIL (or perhaps HEYL) surname connection to the town of 97775 Burgsinn, which is located in Main-Spessart-Kreis, Unterfranken, Bayern (Bavaria). I have determined that Elisabeth HEIL married Johannes FLINNER ca. 1877, then immigrated to Ohio in 1879. I hope to research this area in the near future. Burgsinn has a website at: http://www.burgsinn.de Larry in Ohio ----Original Message---- From: pattycake71963@hotmail.com (Patricia Rodriguez) Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 4:15pm (EST-3) To: BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [BAVARIA] Re: BAVARIA-D Digest V00 #119 Hello list,,,Can anyone tell if the are researching the Heyl and Knecht family Line,,,,and if there is a wed site for family names that migrated from Russia to germany,,, thanks Patty in TX __________________________________