Thank you, Bernhard Schmidt, for bringing some light into the confusion about High / Low German that we have been reading recently. I may add that their is well also the group of "Upper German" (not "High German) dialects. So, part of the confusion may also be a result of incorrect translation: - High German = Hochdeutsch (= official German language) - Upper German dialects = Oberdeutsch (= group of dialects spoken in southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland) - Lower German dialects = Niederdeutsch (= group of dialects spoken in northern Germany) Best Regards Georg Paulus -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Bernhard Schmidt" <bernhard.schmidt@myokay.net> An: <BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com> Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. April 2000 11:13 Betreff: [BAVARIA] High and Low > Hi everyone, > > here is something more on high/low german because there is still some confusion. > > First of all they are NOT opposites to eachother as high-german vs. low-german. > > Hochdeutsch (high) is the official (written) language of Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland and (very small) parts of Belgium. > > Niederdeutsche (low) Dialekte, meaning the group of dialects spoken in the northern part of the country. > > > Greetings from Germany > Bernhard > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > Sister or Brother, > Can you spare $10 dollars to support Rootsweb? > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html#personal >

Hello List Members There have been mentions of a Bavarian census [1851] in the past weeks. Could someone knowledgeable pls reply as to whether this was a one time event, if accessible & how, etc ? Did any other German states do the same ? Thank you Art Hawker Narrowsburg NY HACKER - KINDSVATER - HALLER

Hi everyone, here is something more on high/low german because there is still some confusion. First of all they are NOT opposites to eachother as high-german vs. low-german. Hochdeutsch (high) is the official (written) language of Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland and (very small) parts of Belgium. Niederdeutsche (low) Dialekte, meaning the group of dialects spoken in the northern part of the country. Greetings from Germany Bernhard

Maybe this has already been settled and I'm just behind reading my messages, but what Sabine said matches up with what my GF told me when I was litttle. He said High German was the "official" language, of the authorities and educated and that not everyone in his day could read/even speak it well (he was b. in the 1880s). Low German was the common man's language. I had the idea High German was written as well as spoken, but Low German was only verbal. I realize now I don't know which one he used for the little bit of German he taught me--"guten/goot morgan", "sprechen sie Duetsch", "ein, swei, threi, fier," etc. (Not sure I spelled these right!) Born in the US, Grandpa's father was from Baden and his mother from Bavaria, and the little Texas community he grew up in spoke German. His father encouraged him to learn English because he was an American, but he didn't use it regularly until he went out on his own at about age 18. Lisa Stark

My apologies to members of multiple lists. Descendants of Johann Philipp Dick Generation No. 1 1. JOHANN PHILIPP1 DICK was born 10 February 1772 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany, and died 02 December 1842 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. He married DOROTHEA SCHMIDT 31 January 1799 in Civil, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern, daughter of JOHANNES SCHMIDT. She was born 26 November 1780 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany, and died 15 November 1835 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. Children of JOHANN DICK and DOROTHEA SCHMIDT are: i. PHILIPP2 DICK, b. Abt. 1800, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 15 November 1863, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; m. MARIA ELISABETHA GILCHER, 01 August 1830, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern. 2. ii. FRIEDRICH DICK, b. 15 August 1801, Civil, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern; d. 20 November 1852, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. iii. ANNA KATARINA DICK, b. 04 December 1803, Civil, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern; d. 16 September 1833, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; m. ANDREAS SCHMIDT, 03 July 1830, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern; b. Abt. 1805. 3. iv. GEORG PETER DICK, b. 01 September 1806, Bosenbach, Rheinland-Pfalz, Bayern, Germany; d. 11 March 1877, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. v. GEORG JACOB DICK, b. 19 October 1810, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. vi. GEORG FREDERICK DICK, b. 04 December 1816, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. Generation No. 2 2. FRIEDRICH2 DICK (JOHANN PHILIPP1) was born 15 August 1801 in Civil, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern, and died 20 November 1852 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. He married ELISABETHA RHEINHARD 07 August 1829 in Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern. Children of FRIEDRICH DICK and ELISABETHA RHEINHARD are: i. JACOB3 DICK, b. Abt. 1838. ii. PETER DICK, b. 06 December 1840, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; m. PHILIPPINA DICK, 29 December 1864, Evangelische, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern; b. 15 December 1843, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. 3. GEORG PETER2 DICK (JOHANN PHILIPP1) was born 01 September 1806 in Bosenbach, Rheinland-Pfalz, Bayern, Germany, and died 11 March 1877 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. He married MARIA KATHARINA MAURER 12 December 1833 in Evangelisch, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany, daughter of HEINRICH MAURER and MARIA STROBEL. She was born 09 March 1809 in Bosenbach, Rheinland-Pfalz, Bayern, Germany, and died 14 February 1880 in Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. Children of GEORG DICK and MARIA MAURER are: i. PHILIPPINA3 MAURER, b. 08 January 1833, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 06 January 1838, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. ii. JACOB DICK, b. 05 November 1834, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 01 January 1901. iii. KATHARINA DICK, b. 20 May 1837, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 15 October 1908, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; m. JACOB MATTHIAS, 20 March 1856, Evangelische, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern; b. 28 July 1822, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. iv. PHILIPP DICK, b. 06 April 1840, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. 4. v. DANIEL DICK, b. 15 December 1843, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 18 March 1918. vi. PHILIPPINA DICK, b. 15 December 1843, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; m. PETER DICK, 29 December 1864, Evangelische, Bosenbach, Pfalz, Bayern; b. 06 December 1840, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. vii. MARGARETHA DICK, b. 19 January 1850, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 30 January 1850, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. viii. MARIA DICK, b. 19 January 1850, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 10 February 1850, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. ix. PETER DICK, b. 19 January 1850, Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany; d. 04 February 1850, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany. Generation No. 3 4. DANIEL3 DICK (GEORG PETER2, JOHANN PHILIPP1) was born 15 December 1843 in Civil, Bosenbach, Bayern, Germany, and died 18 March 1918. He married PHILIPPINA JUNG 10 February 1869 in Civil, Essweiler, Pfalz, Bayern, Germany, daughter of PETER JUNG and KATHARINA LEIXNER. She was born 23 February 1843 in Civil, Essweiler, Pfalz, Bayern, Germany, and died 13 December 1902. Children of DANIEL DICK and PHILIPPINA JUNG are: i. KAROLINA4 DICK, b. 28 August 1870, Essweiler, Pfalz, Bayern, Germany; d. 30 October 1946, Boston, Massachusetts; m. JACOB STOLL, 06 December 1890, Boston, Suffolk Co., Massachusetts; b. 1865; d. 1940. ii. JAKOB WALTER DICK, b. 01 March 1872, Essweiler, Pfalz, Bayern, Germany; d. 13 September 1907, Dubuque, Iowa; m. IDA KATHRYN FAHJI, 27 April 1897, Dubuque, Iowa; b. 1876; d. 1934. iii. IDA DICK, b. 16 January 1876, Essweiler, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany; d. 05 March 1951, Dedham, Norfolk Co, Massachusetts; m. KARL SCHMITT, 27 June 1894, Boston, Massachusetts by Adolph Bierwessel; b. 10 September 1868, Bosenbach, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany; d. 31 January 1917, Boston, Massachusetts. iv. WILHELMINA DICK, b. 17 November 1878, Essweiler, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany; d. 16 April 1972, West Roxbury, Suffolk County, Massachusetts; m. ROBERT J. CARNES, 01 October 1902, Boston, Massachusetts; b. 06 April 1879; d. May 1969, West Roxbury Suffolk County MA 02132. v. AMELIA DICK, b. 03 October 1884, Essweiler, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany; d. 30 October 1967, North Reading, Massachusetts; m. FREDERICK SCHWENDENMAN, 12 December 1911, Jamaica Plain, Boston, Suffolk Co., Massachusetts; b. 28 February 1888; d. 16 May 1963. vi. KLARA DICK, b. 07 September 1887, Essweiler, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany; d. 25 January 1964, Boston, Massachusetts; m. ARTHUR WILLS, 12 March 1907, Boston, Massachusetts; d. Abt. 1938. Nancy M. Atkinson e-mail: rascalz@worldnet.att.net homepage: http://home.att.net/~rascalz/genealogy.htm ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Researching Surnames England - ATKINSON (Halifax Yorkshire), TAYLOR (Lanchester, Durham) Germany - DICK, JUNG, ZSCHAU, GRIESBACH, SCHMITT Massachusetts - BERARD Ireland - O'DONNELL, SHEA, VALLELY

Dear Listers, Long a member of this list, I am no longer Tom the Bewildered. I am Tom the Befriended because I have gotten so much help. Thank you for your help, and I would be pleased to get even more suggestions. Tom the Befriended

Hi, Would like to find out any information about Friedericka Constantin(e) born May 1834 in Baden. Appreciate any help... Dave Dhwaldmann@aol.com

At 10:12 31.03.00 EST, you wrote: ------------------------- > Do you have any information on the > deppert Family? > > Thank you. > > Harry E. Deppert > Thanks Harry in deed for this contribution! We've got a similar request from Veris BLEED, but unfortunately all documentation on this names was moved to the K. Valentin archives at the Isartor in Munich, one day before 02.04.1904, in order to save them from the attacking 7 hordes of Swabians under their ruthless leader Haumiblau. You may check also in addition in the archives of Isegal (East of Munich). Good luck! ;-) Schönen Tach noch! Stefan

stefan.probst@opticom.v-nam.net (Stefan Probst) "German-International (Bavarian section) Transcribers of Ship and Naturalization documents of Emigrating Departurers" (in short: GIBTSNED) Stefan: Sorry, but the joke is on you. Here in the good old USA it is March 31st. Ann Victoria

Dear friends of Bavarian Genealogy and Customs, may I announce you, that just in time for the season, the "German-International (Bavarian section) Transcribers of Ship and Naturalization documents of Emigrating Departurers" (in short: GIBTSNED) just finished their work on the ship passengers lists of the old famous South Bavarian port of Ibidumm (now in the Western suburbs of Munich), which is known to nearly every child in Bavaria. Section 1.1. of the documentation contains typical Bavarian names like SCHIFFBAUER, ANKERSCHMIED, KRABBENFISCHER, DEICHGAENGER, FISCHKOPF, etc. Especially if you have the name ALLESGLAEUBER in your lineage, you should definetly check their site! Section 1.2. lists the names sorted by geographic origin of the Bavarian departurers, with the area between Oder and Elbe containing the most names. Section 1.3. features a search engine, especially designed for that site: "Fast and Instantant Navigation Directory for National and International German Ship-goers"(in short: FIND-NIGS) Section 1.4. lists the names of the ships in dependence of the specific departure date. Their site at http://www.all.ourfamily.com/Ibidumm/ will officially open tomorrow. Alternatively, requests for information, as well as own contributions (e.g. HTML pages that should be hosted in addition), may be eMailed to the "International Directory Of Departure Lists of Ibidumm" <iDODL-Ibidumm@all.ourfamily.com>. They said, that they will re-publish worthy contributions to this list here. One last word, especially to the Bavarian speaking list members: Since the GIBTSNED expects some traffic on the first day, I would kindly request you, to hold back your comments to this mailing list until after tomorrow (i.e. 2.4.). On the first "Opening Day" tomorrow I would like us to give our international guests the chance to visit this rare site without being disturbed. I do however encourage you, and everybody else who might contribute to this unique site (with information or requests), to mail your HTML pages to the mail address above, or if you don't like to send it to iDODL-Ibidumm, you may also mail it directly to me. I will look that they upload it then. In order to allow this additional contributions for the opening day, I announce this site already today, although the adequate date would be tomrrow only. I hope you understand.... Cheers, and have a great day tomorrow! See you all at the opening of that site!!! Stefan Probst

Tom: Have you looked at familysearch.org (the LDS website)? There are lots of Sebastians in Bavaria. It might be a good place to start. Here are a few Andreas listings. By the way, something I read about GTA said that only about 40% of German immigrants are accounted for in those volumes. Some of my ancestors aren't listed (we know how/when/from where from other sources). 3. Andreas SEBASTIAN - International Genealogical Index Gender: M Christening: 10 Jan 1818 Katholisch, Geinsheim, Pfalz, Bayern 4. Andreas SEBASTIAN - International Genealogical Index Gender: M Christening: 10 Jan 1818 Katholisch, Geinsheim, Pfalz, Bayern 5. Andreas SEBASTIAN - International Genealogical Index Gender: M Christening: 9 Feb 1747 Katholisch, Geinsheim, Pfalz, Bayern 6. Andreas SEBASTIAN - International Genealogical Index Gender: M Christening: 9 Feb 1747 Katholisch, Geinsheim, Pfalz, Bayern 7. Andreas SEBASTIAN - International Genealogical Index Gender: M Christening: 9 Mar 1761 Evangelisch, Goellheim, Pfalz, Bayern Happy hunting! Kathleen Schilling kschilli@hotmail.com >From: "Thomas Fiske" <evitom@earthlink.net> Aware of the axiom, "Beware of all stories that begin with "Two Brothers went to America," I hesitate to talk about my ancestor. But that seems to be the case with Adamus and Andreaus Sebastian who suddenly appear on the 1860 census for Louisville, KY. Oh, I do not know if they were brothers, but they were close in age and had the same last name and general home in Bavaria (Bayern). Adam became a citizen about 1862, which means he had to have been in the Country by 1857. But does he show up in the "Germans to America" series of books? Certainly not. That is why I never use the term, "Wetbacks." I am afraid my >ancestor swam to America. > >The 1937 flood wiped out Jefferson Co., KY records, so I cannot find what >Adam said about his homeland, and his 1874 tombstone is eroded so that I >cannot read anything but Adam Sebastian on it. > >NARA has nothing on him. So I need to find some local records in Bavaria, >so I can go there before I die. Or, drop dead whilst I am there, which is >embarrassing, but OK. > >Tom the bewildered. > > > > >==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== >Going on Vacation? Longer than 5 days? Please unsubscribe >Just click this and send it. It is all set up for you. >mailto:Bavaria-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Tom, Try to go through the Archives Dept. of the Archdiocese which oversees the original church you mention. They are usually the most helpful and deal with these types of requests much more often than local churches. Often local priests are busy with their ministering and do not want to be bothered with genealogical requests. One of the reasons the church has their records filmed is so that the local priests will not have the burden of accommodating such requests and can more fully direct their attention to their ministering. Even better, do a Place search on LDS for this church in Louisville on the Internet to see what, if any, records LDS did film for this church. If it shows up, the search will tell you exactly what was filmed (including years and types of records) and available for you to look at. Then you can either search for them yourself at a FHL, or THEN contact the Archdiocese Archives Dept. and ask for the procedure to procure the records from them. Joanne

Tom, My own lame suggestions: Get the United States church records for your Sebastian brothers. Did either of them marry in the United States? I know from experience that U. S. Catholic records can be very good. My great grandfather married in WI. His civil record for the event only said "Bavaria". His church record gave me the actual town in Bavaria, Pfarrkirchen, along with the Bavarian town for his wife. The LDS has filmed many us Catholic church records. Also the Archdiocese overseeing the area where your family attended church usually also has copies of the films and at least mine did the Latin translation for me as well. You said that he has a tombstone. There are various tricks and tips on the Internet for reading worn tombstones, some quite ingenious. What church held his burial service? Might they have kept records of his service which might include his place of origin? Did he have children who married in a US church? The children's civil and church marriage records often include the names of the parents and sometimes the origin of the parents. You had that other suggestion which showed a Name search on the LDS website. You can also do a Place search for any locations to see what records, civil and church have been filmed by LDS. This would include Bavaria AND Louisville, KY. That's about all I can think of right now. Best of luck, Joanne

Hello list - We believe our FUCHS family comes from Bavaria, Germany. However, one death certificate says the parents were b. in "DK Germany". Can someone please tell me where this is?? THANKS, Karen.

Tom, a suggestion: You wrote that the courthouse flooded. Well my courthouse burned to the ground. Immediately the folks started going to adjoining counties and registering their ownership of property etc. So go next door and see what you can find. Also check to see if the home county every spilt. If it did the new county might have copies of all the things the original county had. That also happened to our folks. So when the county split in 1865 and the court house burned in 1890 only 25 years worth of records burned. Check it out. Never can tell. Mary Lou Looking in Titus Co. TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Fiske" <evitom@earthlink.net> To: <BAVARIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 6:44 PM Subject: [BAVARIA] Two Young Men > Dear Listers, > > Aware of the axiom, "Beware of all stories that begin with "Two Brothers > went to America," I hesitate to talk about my ancestor. But that seems to > be the case with Adamus and Andreaus Sebastian who suddenly appear on the > 1860 census for Louisville, KY. > > Oh, I do not know if they were brothers, but they were close in age and had > the same last name and general home in Bavaria (Bayern). Adam became a > citizen about 1862, which means he had to have been in the Country by 1857. > But does he show up in the "Germans to America" series of books? Certainly > not. That is why I never use the term, "Wetbacks." I am afraid my > ancestor swam to America. > > The 1937 flood wiped out Jefferson Co., KY records, so I cannot find what > Adam said about his homeland, and his 1874 tombstone is eroded so that I > cannot read anything but Adam Sebastian on it. > > NARA has nothing on him. So I need to find some local records in Bavaria, > so I can go there before I die. Or, drop dead whilst I am there, which is > embarrassing, but OK. > > Tom the bewildered. > > > > > ==== BAVARIA Mailing List ==== > Going on Vacation? Longer than 5 days? Please unsubscribe > Just click this and send it. It is all set up for you. > mailto:Bavaria-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >

Dear Listers, To all those folks who are not familiar with Louisville, KY, let me say it is a Southern town with very German roots. At one time 40% of the population was German Catholic, which means Southern Germany. I have been told that the area, on the Ohio River, looked like the Rhineland and that is what attracted so many Germans. I do not know if that is true. Louisville is my home. Although I have lived in California for many years and have been away from Louisville since 1957, I have never found a more polite, concerned populace. I was at the University of Louisville in 1950 when a petition was circulated asking if Blacks should be allowed to attend the University, and I think the response was 99% saying, "Sounds like a great idea." The other one per cent thought they were already on campus. Germans were something else. They did not have a great socio-economic status. In local publications such as the very good newspaper, the Louisville Courier-Journal, Germans did not seem to exist. But there were no less than five German newspapers by 1874. In my own family, which had some pretensions of grandeur, there were three German ancestors. But they were seldom mentioned. Some German was spoken in my home, as a flavoring to our everyday Southern English. It added variety and some understanding. Still, two World Wars made Germans and Germany unpopular. Now my studies have shown that our German ancestors were brave and industrious, entrepreneurs of a good sort. They are to be emulated, not to be the source of embarrassment for being recent immigrants. Even today, though, I find it difficult to dig out any useful information on my German ancestors from cousins who shared my ancestry. On top of that, the 1937 flood wiped out public records. So it is going to be an uphill battle to find anything useful about these strong, self-reliant folks. Tom the Bewildered.

Dear Listers, Aware of the axiom, "Beware of all stories that begin with "Two Brothers went to America," I hesitate to talk about my ancestor. But that seems to be the case with Adamus and Andreaus Sebastian who suddenly appear on the 1860 census for Louisville, KY. Oh, I do not know if they were brothers, but they were close in age and had the same last name and general home in Bavaria (Bayern). Adam became a citizen about 1862, which means he had to have been in the Country by 1857. But does he show up in the "Germans to America" series of books? Certainly not. That is why I never use the term, "Wetbacks." I am afraid my ancestor swam to America. The 1937 flood wiped out Jefferson Co., KY records, so I cannot find what Adam said about his homeland, and his 1874 tombstone is eroded so that I cannot read anything but Adam Sebastian on it. NARA has nothing on him. So I need to find some local records in Bavaria, so I can go there before I die. Or, drop dead whilst I am there, which is embarrassing, but OK. Tom the bewildered.

Dear Listers, As a result of several kind people's suggestions in the past few days, I pursued my search of Adam Sebastian of Bavaria and Louisville, KY to 1) a German Genealogical library in LaVerne, CA, and then 2) to NARA on the Internet. The response of both was in effect, "YOLJ" or "You Outta Luck, Jack." I believe my best opportunity for finding the right village in Bavaria is to get my hands on the 1851 census for Bavaria. But I do not have any idea what village to look at. Adam would have been 21 at the time. Sebastian is a rare surname for Germans. It is common as a first name and a middle name. For instance Johann Sebastian Bach, the musician, and I share the same middle name. But he had more talent, producing 16 children to my 2. Tom the bewildered

Dear fellow Bavarians, thanks so much for all your help in the translation and the explanation of the Bavarian dialect. I appreciate your kindness and time. Thanks again, Gerald Kisabeth Researching: Kueschwert, Kuespert, Kispert, and Kisse(n)berth in the Fichtelgebirge area of Oberfranken, Bayern. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Check out the survey on MyFamily.com site. Spanish is ahead at 38% and German is second at 16% Joan