Hello all, You’ve all seen a number of :empty” post attempts from John Gruber. After advising him on how to get his email to be accepted and posted, it still failed. So, below is the ext of his post. Please reply to the List as usual. BTW, John’s email is john.gruber_at_sympatico.ca (replace the “_at_" with an ”@“ to activate his email address). ====John’s message==== I'm checking with the Banat and DVHH lists to see if anyone has FBs or church records with Gruber's in them, most likely from the Banat. Specifically, I'm looking for the following 4 events: 1 birth (baptism) and 3 marriages, which have so far been brick walls for me. 1 birth of my GGF Michael Gruber, b. abt. 1825 , possibly in Pardan, but not found in the Pardan FB or church index. 2 Marriage of my GGF Michael Gruber (in 1. above) to my GGM Anna Wagner b. 1841 in Pardan. The marriage was likely in the late 1860s, and expected to be in the Pardan FB or church index, but was not found there. The site (clandata_sytes_dot_net) mentions the marriage but with no date or location info. 3 Marriage of my GF Anton Gruber b. 1881 in Georgshausen to my GM Eva Heinrich b. 1881 in Setschanfeld. Anton is the last kid of Michael and Anna (in 2. above). The marriage was likely in about 1905, and expected to be in the Zichydorf or Gross Gaj FBs, but was not found there. 4 Marriage of Michael Gruber (Jr) b. 1875 in Pardan to Margaretha Schmidt b. 1877 in Setschan. Michael (Jr) and Anton (in 3. above) were brothers, and sons of Michael and Anna (in 2. above). The marriage was likely in about the late 1890s or early 1900s, and expected to also be in the Zichydorf or Gross Gaj FBs, but was not found there. The Setchan FB says that Margaretha married someone (oo?), but it doesn't say who, when or where. The Lenauheim FB refers to a marriage of a Michael Gruber to a Margaretha Gruber, but with no date or location info. The site also mentions the marriage but with no date or location info. To avoid duplicated effort, below I include all I know about these events to date. ______________________________________________________ 1 birth of my GGF Michael Gruber, who died in Georgshausen in 1901 at age 76, so I assume he was born abt. 1825. His birth location is unknown, but a Pardan FB entry for 1 of his infant death kids says he was from Ittebe Ratz, a filial of nearby Pardan. Michael's birth isn't in the Pardan FB nor in the church index (the actual church records are apparently lost). Local family history says that Michael originated from Alsace Province (then in western Germany) but I expect he was too young for the migrations that took place from there to Hungary in about the mid to late 1700s; maybe they meant his ancestors came from Alsace? It's hard to tell since I don't know of any of Michael's ancestors or sibs. A FB or church records that showed a Gruber family with Michael as a kid, would be a breakthru for me. 2 Marriage of my GGF Michael Gruber (in 1. above) to my GGM Anna Wagner b. 1841 in Pardan (as in the Pardan church index). They most likely married in the late 1860s in Pardan since most of their 5 or 6 kids' births are listed after that in the Pardan church index. Their marriage isn't in the Pardan FB nor in the church index. (Michael and Anna later moved to Georgshausen where my GF Anton Gruber was born in 1881, and where they died in 1901 and 1902.) 3 Marriage of my GF Anton Gruber b. 1881 in Georgshausen (as in the Zichydorf baptism records), to my GM Eva Heinrich b. 1881 in Setschanfeld (as in the Gross Gaj baptism records). Anton is the last kid of Michael Gruber and Anna Wagner (in 2. above). I expect Anton and Eva married in about 1905, before they immigrated to Canada in 1906, with no kids; their passenger record says they were married. Logically, the marriage should be in the Zichydorf or Gross Gaj FBs or church records but it wasn't found there. It's also not found in the Sartscha, Setschan, Klek, Lazarfeld, Gross Scham and Werschetz records, nor in many other online FBs. I have a pic of Anton and Eva taken in what looks like a then Versecz studio, I expect in about 1905 at the time they married. So, I recently asked Bene Jozsef from there to check the Werschetz parish records, but he didn't find the marriage. I speculate that since the Anton/Eva marriage isn't in the most obvious church records, they may have had a civil marriage – possible reason being that, as in her Gross Gaj baptism record, Eva is shown as illegitimate; so maybe the church wouldn't marry her? Banat researcher Stasa Cvetkovik has looked in some places for civil marriages but didn't find it. 4 Marriage of Michael Gruber (Jr) b. 1875 (as in the Pardan church index), to Margaretha Schmidt b. 1877 (as in the Setschan FB). Michael (Jr) and Anton (in 3. above) were brothers, and sons of Michael Gruber and Anna Wagner (in 2. above). I expect Michael and Margaretha married in about the late 1890s or early 1900s, before they immigrated to Canada in 1903, with no kids; their passenger record says they were married. The Setchan FB says that Margaretha married someone (oo?), tho it doesn't say who, when or where, but likely in 1897 or earlier, in I expect Setschan, since it also says she had an infant death girl Anna (b. 1898, d. 1899) in Setschan. oo? in the Setchan FB seems to indicate a questionable marriage, maybe because Anna was illegitimate? In the case of illegitimacy, I'm told the father's name wasn't recorded by the church, even if they knew who he was. So, the father could be Michael Gruber (Jr), but I don't know that. The online Lenauheim FB refers to a marriage of a Michael Gruber to a Margaretha Gruber, but with no date or location info., tho the implied location is Lenauheim. It also refers to other Gruber's, relevant ones being Michael's parents and 2 of his sibs in the Zichydorf FB, that I already knew about. Another site also mentions the marriages of Michael and Margaretha Gruber, as well as Michael's parents Michael Gruber and Anna Wagner. But again, there are no dates or locations, or sources of the info. Finally, I note that for some reason Michael and Margaretha married again in 1909 in Canada. Why? Some have suggested that they may have needed proof of marriage for something but lost their papers, so had to marry again. Or, maybe they really weren't married in the Banat, at least not 'legitimately' in the church, or they had a civil marriage (because of a possibly illegitimate daughter Anna in Setschan?) ===end=== With kind regards, David Preston Banat List Administrator === http://www.banatbooks.com http://www.danube-swabians.org http://www.village-records.org http://www.molidorf.com