Reply to Message 5 - You can download the map and then save it through your photo viewing program. Then go in enlarge what you want and save it. I use Corel's Paintshop Pro. What you save will then be a jpeg file. Betty Ann Today's Topics: 1. Fwd: Angner--Burger Families ([email protected]) 2. Re: January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries (Paul Clark) 3. Re: January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries (Edward J. Lowitz) 4. January wedings (Richard Barak) 5. Franzfeld Map of Houses ([email protected]) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:48:14 -0400 (EDT) From: [email protected] Subject: [BANAT-L] Fwd: Angner--Burger Families To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hello Marilyn, I am sorry you did not receive my response to your email. Since it was rather lengthy, I sent it directly to you on the 18th of the month. Going through the list must be the better way to communicate. Sorry, I am not too accustomed to exchanges via the list. Thanks again, Anne ____________________________________ From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: 4/18/2014 4:38:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time Subj: Re: [BANAT-L] Angner--Burger Families Hi Again Marilyn, When I responded to your email, I had not yet read your first one. After reading this, your first email, I believe some information we have is incorrect. First let me say - Lorenz Angner is not directly related to me but he was married to Marion Burger. Marion was my grandmother's sister and only sibling. My grandmother was Anna M. Burger, both born 1882 in Lowrin. Their father was Andreas (sp) Andrew Burger and their mother was Johanna Forques, also both from Lowrin. Anna M. Burger married Johann Isler from Lowrin in 1904. In 1906, they arrived in the US with their daughter, Magdalen age 2. They had a second daughter, Teresa born in 1908, and a third daughter, Anna, born in 1910. At this time Johann (my grandfather) was working on a farm in Deans, NJ. This is information I picked up from David Dryer's Ship List: Angner Lorenz - Age 28 from Lowrin (born in Neusiedel). Wed-Feb. 17, 1909 to Deans, NJ. Wife Maria (Marian) age 22 and daughter Franziska age 3. Going to join brother-in-law Johann Islem (Isler). My grandparents often spoke of her sister Marian and her husband Lorenz coming to America to work but they did stay. If I were not sure of the Deans, NJ connection, I would say that I had the wrong family. My grandfather moved to Philadelphia soon after and bought a store front property and began selling milk by the ladles! (no pasteurization at that time). This evolved into a regular milk delivery business but required nightly scrubbing of milk bottles and refilling them. I always heard that Marian and Lorenz found this work to be tedious and returned to Lowrin. How sure are you of your information? Anne from Phila. In a message dated 4/16/2014 7:45:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I haven't looked at my genealogy for a couple of years and it seems like your Lorenz Angner is my dad's uncle. My papers show he was married to an Anna M. Burger. They had a daughter Anna b. 19.04.1904. d. 5.12.1904. Another daughter b. 31.10.1908. married 25.10.1924 to Johann Hartmann. Lorenz name was Laurentius. b. 10.12.1880. and d. 6.04.1944 in Lowrin How is Lorenz related to you? My dad had a cousin in Philadelphia Nicholas John Angner married to an Anna. His father was Mathias Angner and mother Barbara Schoenborn. It seems some of the family lived in Phily and went back to Europe. Marilyn Angner from Westchester IL To look into the eyes of a wolf is to see your own soul. Aldo Leopold. On Apr 5, 2014, at 1:21 PM, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) wrote: Will someone kindly do a look-up for me or give me a clue about where I can research these families: Lorenz Angner - B. 1881 in Neusiedel MT: Marion Burger B. 1887 in Lowrin They had a daughter Franziska B.1906 in Lowrin and possibly a son. Even the smallest hint of anyone in these families would be greatly appreciated. This is truly a brick wall which I have been faced with for many years. Many thanks, Anne in Philadelphia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message = ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Clark <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello, I'm catholic and got married during Lent near Dallas, Texas. It depends where you live whether or not the priest/bishops are willing to allow marriages during those times of the year. pq ________________________________ From: Edward J. Lowitz <[email protected]> To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries Is that documented anywhere?? I am Catholic (Philadelphia) and have never heard of any restrictions on getting married during Advent or Lent.? Then again, I remember when there was the Great Debate of Women Wearing Hats in Church - turned out to be 'tradition' not 'dogma'. I did a search on 'weddings during Advent' and the closest thing I could find was a reference on the Diocese of Orlando's website: http://www.orlandodiocese.org/liturgy-advent-a-christmas-guidelines that said : "Marriages during the Seasons of Advent and Christmas No prohibitions are prescribed which limit the celebration of the Sacrament of Marriage during the Advent and Christmas Seasons. The Sundays and Solemnities of the Seasons would restrict the use of the Nuptial Mass and readings. (RM 11) White vestments are used for marriages. The Penitential Act is omitted and the "Glory to God" is sung." The Episcopal Diocese of New York says: "Seasons for Marriages Marriages are not traditionally celebrated in Advent and in Lent because these are penitential seasons during which times festal liturgies, such as weddings, are not appropriate. Diocesan policy is that weddings during Advent or Lent should only happen in the case of serious, pressing, compelling pastoral need." http://www.dioceseny.org/pages/75-weddings-and-funerals Neither of these are in the Banat prior to the 20th Century so does anyone have documentation substantiating this? Ed. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Susan Sander Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 6:15 PM To: Marlene Perrucci; [email protected] Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries Another possible reason for January weddings was that weddings were not permitted during Advent or Lent.? ? Advent is the period before Christmas and Lent occurs prior to Easter.? ? So January, February and part of March would be acceptable to the church. Just another idea.? Susan > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 07:00:20 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries > > I am a new subscriber, so not sure of the correct protocol to respond. > > I am very fortunate to still have my great aunt (97) and mom (87) > alive to help with my research. They are from Tschesterek, and I went > back with my mom in July 2012. > > Second (and third) marriages were quickly arranged after the death of > a spouse to ensure that the children and household could be > maintained. Most men worked as farmers, so they needed someone at home > to tend to the children, garden, cook. Most widows did not have the > financial resources to live alone after their husband died. > > Why in January? According to my mom, when her parents were married > (1925) it was still more likely for people to marry during the winter > months as the outside work was less. She's not sure why January was > more prevalent for second / third marriages, unless people waited until after the holidays. > > Re:Cemeteries. > > There were 2 cemeteries in Tschesterek, and my mother recalls very > clearly where her family members were buried in both. The first one > was located right at the edge of town, and when we walked through the > brush, we couldn't find any traces of a cemetery. The second location > still had stones and plots, but most were destroyed. We found out from > one of the residents that we spoke with that the headstones were > ground up to use in paving the roads. It was a very emotional journey for my mom. > > Marlene Perrucci > Chicago Area > > > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:53:21 -0500 > From: Eileen & George <[email protected]> > Subject: [BANAT-L] January Marriages > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dear List: > > Recently in reading more thoroughly through the Sackelhausen > Familienbuch something interesting came to light. For the surnames I > was searching, there seemed to be an abnormal number of second, and > third, marriages in January. Rarely was there was a lapse of more than a year. > Generally these marriages were the January immediately following the > death of a spouse. > > Can someone explain? > > Eileen Lund-Johnson > Minnesota >? > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:16:43 -0400 From: "Edward J. Lowitz" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Here in Zone 7 (USA), the last frost date is April 15th. Easy to remember as it is tax day. That started me wondering about the last frost date in the Banat area and maybe if that tied into Lent. The Utah Climate Center (Utah State University) gives last frost dates for various countries including Romania: http://climate.usurf.usu.edu/reports/freezeDates.php?ntwk=GHCN&sSubmit=Selec t&acronym=RO&sSubmit=Select&g_state=UT Arad's earliest last spring freeze date is Feb 23rd. Some places were later, some were a little earlier. Ash Wednesday can be as early as Feb 4th and as late as Mar 10th. As Lent is starting up, so is planting time when you don't want to get married and don't have the time to party. Perhaps it is not a Church prohibition against getting married during Lent rather that it coincides with planting time. "Don't get married during Lent! That's planting time!" Ed. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Clark Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 1:37 PM To: '[email protected]' Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries Hello, I'm catholic and got married during Lent near Dallas, Texas. It depends where you live whether or not the priest/bishops are willing to allow marriages during those times of the year. pq ________________________________ From: Edward J. Lowitz <[email protected]> To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries Is that documented anywhere?? I am Catholic (Philadelphia) and have never heard of any restrictions on getting married during Advent or Lent.? Then again, I remember when there was the Great Debate of Women Wearing Hats in Church - turned out to be 'tradition' not 'dogma'. I did a search on 'weddings during Advent' and the closest thing I could find was a reference on the Diocese of Orlando's website: http://www.orlandodiocese.org/liturgy-advent-a-christmas-guidelines that said : "Marriages during the Seasons of Advent and Christmas No prohibitions are prescribed which limit the celebration of the Sacrament of Marriage during the Advent and Christmas Seasons. The Sundays and Solemnities of the Seasons would restrict the use of the Nuptial Mass and readings. (RM 11) White vestments are used for marriages. The Penitential Act is omitted and the "Glory to God" is sung." The Episcopal Diocese of New York says: "Seasons for Marriages Marriages are not traditionally celebrated in Advent and in Lent because these are penitential seasons during which times festal liturgies, such as weddings, are not appropriate. Diocesan policy is that weddings during Advent or Lent should only happen in the case of serious, pressing, compelling pastoral need." http://www.dioceseny.org/pages/75-weddings-and-funerals Neither of these are in the Banat prior to the 20th Century so does anyone have documentation substantiating this? Ed. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Susan Sander Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 6:15 PM To: Marlene Perrucci; [email protected] Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries Another possible reason for January weddings was that weddings were not permitted during Advent or Lent.? ? Advent is the period before Christmas and Lent occurs prior to Easter.? ? So January, February and part of March would be acceptable to the church. Just another idea.? Susan > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 07:00:20 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [BANAT-L] January Marriages / Notes on Cemeteries > > I am a new subscriber, so not sure of the correct protocol to respond. > > I am very fortunate to still have my great aunt (97) and mom (87) > alive to help with my research. They are from Tschesterek, and I went > back with my mom in July 2012. > > Second (and third) marriages were quickly arranged after the death of > a spouse to ensure that the children and household could be > maintained. Most men worked as farmers, so they needed someone at home > to tend to the children, garden, cook. Most widows did not have the > financial resources to live alone after their husband died. > > Why in January? According to my mom, when her parents were married > (1925) it was still more likely for people to marry during the winter > months as the outside work was less. She's not sure why January was > more prevalent for second / third marriages, unless people waited until after the holidays. > > Re:Cemeteries. > > There were 2 cemeteries in Tschesterek, and my mother recalls very > clearly where her family members were buried in both. The first one > was located right at the edge of town, and when we walked through the > brush, we couldn't find any traces of a cemetery. The second location > still had stones and plots, but most were destroyed. We found out from > one of the residents that we spoke with that the headstones were > ground up to use in paving the roads. It was a very emotional journey for my mom. > > Marlene Perrucci > Chicago Area > > > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:53:21 -0500 > From: Eileen & George <[email protected]> > Subject: [BANAT-L] January Marriages > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dear List: > > Recently in reading more thoroughly through the Sackelhausen > Familienbuch something interesting came to light. For the surnames I > was searching, there seemed to be an abnormal number of second, and > third, marriages in January. Rarely was there was a lapse of more than a year. > Generally these marriages were the January immediately following the > death of a spouse. > > Can someone explain? > > Eileen Lund-Johnson > Minnesota >? > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:41:25 -0400 From: "Richard Barak" <[email protected]> Subject: [BANAT-L] January wedings To: "BANAT LIST" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I was married 56 years ago in January. After an October engagement the Catholic Church set out rules, conferences and conditions that were not met until January and we needed to set a date before Lent. Bummer was the snow storm that my family had to drive through for 90 miles to the church in my wife's home town of Clinton, IA. My Chicago family, most of them, made the trip but were not happy the reception was held at the YWCA and no alcohol could be served. My point is that January is just before Lent, just after Xmas and convenient when you have been waiting months. BTW we are still very happy together. Dick Barak St Francis, MN ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:20:55 -0400 (EDT) From: [email protected] Subject: [BANAT-L] Franzfeld Map of Houses To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friends, I could use some help. I found an online map of the houses in Franzfeld in 1944, Ortsplan 1944 at www.franzfeld.de/?page_id=821. I was able to download it to my computer, but the print is too small to read. When I expanded the picture, the names are then too distorted to read. Do you know if there is a way to purchase a copy of this map at a size where the names are readable, or do you know if anyone has coded the family home parcels and attached a list of who lived at each site? This is a terrific map and I would love to compare it to our extended family to connect with where they lived. Thanks for any guidance! (...and also for all each of you do. This list is a wonderful resource!) Kathy Agard Just in case a family member is on the list and would like to share information - Great Grandparents - Christine Bohland (nee: Scheuermann) from Franzfeld, immigrated to the United States in 1904 with children Phillip, and Elizabeth Daughter of Jakob Scheuermann and Katharina Klein Johann Bohland from Mramorak immigrated to the United States in 1901 Son of Deitrich Bohland and Elizabeth Urschel ------------------------------ To contact the BANAT list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the BANAT mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of BANAT Digest, Vol 9, Issue 93 ************************************