Dave; This Lorenz Horvath is a long standing problem which comes up on the list from time to time over the years and there seems to be a lot of list subscribers who are decended from him. Over this period information from this family gets passed around among these interested and researchers forget who supplied it and when it comes around again it get accepted as established fact. As you are aware the passenger ship records in this case are too early to give us any information on his place of birth. The Josefsdorf KBs(church books) indicate that Lorenz Horvath is from Etschka. He was also a Juryman in Elisenhain. These two villages are close neighbors. Lorenz Horvath and his first wife, Anna Rollinger had four kids who were married in Josefsdorf, and these are recorded in the Josefsdorf KBs. In addiion I have been able to get the abstracts of the Elisenhain birth KBs and their oldest kid, Eva was born in Elisenhain. Lorenz is not in the D Etschka family book but this is not suprising since the author Philipp Lung did not have copies of all the D Etschka KBs to work from and there are many records missing. The D Etscka family book is out of print but is now available from the AVBF on a CD. The D Etschka family book was published some years ago and perhaps Philipp Lung will have acquired additional D Etschka records which will lead to a new extended edition in due course. There are several Horvath families in the D Etschka family book but they are too late to be the parents of Lorenz. The birth date of 1836 is probably calculted from his age at the time of death and is probably about right. There were a bunch of Horvaths in Elisenhain likely related, however Horvath is a very common Hungarian surname. If Lorenz wasn't born in D Etschka he was likely from nearby Ernsthausen where Horvath is also a known surname. No one that I know of has copies of the Ernsthausen KBs, As important as the origin of Lorenz is, the details on his first wife, Anna Rollinger are equally obscure. Again she might have come from Ernsthausen but someone recently posted the information that she was born in Kriva Bara 15 Jan 1834. However, this is an IGI entry and as such a secondary source has to be taken with some reservation. The matter does not stop here since we do not know the details of the marriage to his second wife, Eva Lutz. It was not in Josefsdorf. I will past below the data I have on Horvaths in the Josefsdorf-Elisenhain records and you will have to judge for yourself how best to proceed. You will see that there are a whole series of different places given for the birth of the Horvath kids in the various KB entries. Dave Dreyer HORVATH Anna HN 308 1 Stefan *27 Mar 1882 Josefsdorf +14 Oct 1882 Josefsdorf 2 Johann *29 Jul 1883 Josefsdorf +30 Jan 1885 Josefsdorf 3 Stefan *19 Oct 1885 Josefsdorf HN 236 HORVATH Anton ex Etschka oo POPOVICS Veronica 1 Victoria *31 Aug 1873 Elisenhain +6 Sep 1873 Elisenhain HORVATH Franz HN 244 ex Ernsthausen *1831 +10 Feb 1895 Josefsdorf oo KARFISZL Angela HORVATH Franz oo HEIN Maria 1 Stefan *3 Jun 1870 Elisenhain 2 Magdalena *19 Apr 1872 Elisenhain HN 21 HORVATH Josef ex St Georgen oo PAUL Katharina 1 Susanna *27 Sep 1878 Elisenhain HORVATH Rosina, widow *1855 +17 Mar 1929 Belint HORVATH Lorenz HN 238 ex Etschka. Juryman in Elisenhain. To New York 1893 *1836 +6 Apr 1915, Mt Angel OR 1oo ROLLINGER Anna 1 Anna *1859 oo Johann WEBER 2 Katharina *1866 oo Benedict RIESINGER 3 Anna *1867 oo Johann EHRENWERTH 4 Appolonia *1870 oo Leopold MOENNICH 5 Eva *23 Jul 1872 Elisenhain HN 12 +30 Jun 1951 Marschfield WI oo Kristof EHRENREICH 2oo LUTZ Eva *21 Jan 1836 +Mt Angel OR 6 Barbara *27 Apr 1880 Elisenhain +20 Aug 1884 Josefsdorf 3oo 14 Jun 1910 Gervais, OR MITTELBRUNN Maria, dau of Josef IVANCSICS and Eva LUTZ, wid of Nikolaus MITTELBRUN *2 Jul 1866 Georgshausen EHRENREICH Kristof, son of Mathias EHRENREICH and Anna RIEMSCHNEIDER Giseladorf HN46, To Lincoln Ill 1897 with parents. Later moved to Rib Lake Wisconsin and then to Marschfield Wisconsin. *1868 Klek +1918 oo 5 Jul 1891 Josefsdorf HORVATH Eva, dau of Lorenz HORVATH and Anna ROLLINGER HN 204 *23 Jul 1873 Elisenhain +30 Jun 1951 Marschfield WI 1 Margaret *22 Aug 1892 Josefsdorf HN 204 +23 Sep 1892 Josefsdorf 2 Apollonia *12 Nov 1893 Josefsdorf HN 73 +28 Mar 1968 Marschfield WI 3 Magdalena *11 Jan 1895 Josefsdorf +30 Jan 1895 Josefsdorf 4 Elisabeth *30 Dec 1895 Josefsdorf HN 283 +26 Mar 1989 Marschfield WI 5 Katharine *17 Jul 1897 Josefsdorf HN 280 +10 Sep 1897 Josefsdorf 6 Christian *20 Nov 1897 +20 Nov 1962 Sheboygen WI 7 Ignatz *20 Jun 1900 Rib Lake WI +12 Mar 1968 Marschfield WI MOENNICH Leopold HN 59 ex Setschandorf oo HORVATH Apollonia, dau of Lorenz HORVATH and Anna ROLLINGER ex Georgshausen *1870 1 Eva *3 Jan 1887 Josefsdorf 2 Josef *12 Aug 1889 Josefsdorf HN 197 3 Barbara *23 May 1893 Josefsdorf HN 199 oo 5 Nov 1911, Gr Gaj Franz TERHOT RIESINGER Benedict, son of Johann RIESINGER(ex Novo Selo) and Magdalena HARTMANN HN 33 1/2 ex Beodra, Novo Selo *1860 oo 5 Jul 1885 Josefsdorf HORVATH Katharine, dau of Lorenz HORVATH(ex Novo Selo) and Anna ROLLINGER HN 238 ex Gr Gaj, ex Kriva Bara *1866 1 Johann *28 Jan 1887 Josefsdorf 2 Bernhardt *28 Nov 1889 Josefsdorf HN 239 ex Novo Selo, oo 1913 to Maria NEMETH. 3 Maria Anna *11 Sep 1892 Josefsdorf HN 237 ex Novo Selo 4 Kristof *16 Mar 1895 Josefsdorf HN 62 5 Katharine *20 Aug 1898 Josefsdorf HN 204 WEBER Johann, son of Michael WEBER and Anna KRAEMER living in Elisenhain ex Setschan *1861 oo 11 Aug 1888 Josefsdorf HORVATH Anna, dau of Lorenz HORVATH and Anna ROLLINGER living in Josefsdorf ex Neuburg. *1859 ----- Original Message ----- From: <davey1947@suddenlink.net> To: <ddreyer@pacbell.net> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:55 AM Subject: Lorenz Horvath Brickwall > Hey Dave: > Someone from the list sent me information in a forum that Lorencz Horvath > is from Deutsche Etschka. Lorencz shows up in your extractions for the > EMIGRATION FROM BANAT records aboard the ship Dresden going from > Josefsdorf to New York arriving in New York 21 Nov. 1893. > I was wondering if you know the person who may have the Deutsche Etschka > book and if they could do a lookup for me. I am hoping this record will > clarify once and for all who his parents were and also who were his > siblings. According to my records, Lorencz was born in 1836, but I do not > have the exact date. > I would appreciate any help. > Dave Weinfurtner >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dreyer" To: "Banat List" Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] Lorenz Horvath in Josefsdorfl > This Lorenz Horvath is a long standing problem ... > The Josefsdorf KBs (church books) indicate that Lorenz Horvath is from > Etschka. ... > Lorenz is not in the D Etschka family book but this is not suprising since > the author Philipp Lung did not have copies of all the D Etschka KBs to > work > from and there are many records missing. ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OR the explanation is that he, Lorenz Horvath, was not a German, and the FB author(s) were not quite interested in his entrances from the original KBs ... In to many cases the title "Familienbuch der katholischen Pfarrgemeinde X" do not cover the reality and inhabitants of that village, who do not have a German name, are ignored deliberately ... S o r i n http://www.genealogy.ro/contributions.htm

Sorin brings up an excellent point.  In the town of Rekasch, I am unable to trace my direct paternal line further back than 1859 with any precision because that's when my Romanian Orthodox ggg-grandfather, Nicolaus Flueras married my Catholic ggg-grandmother, Magdalena Wichtmann.  Even though according to the marriage record, Nicolaus was born in Rekasch in 1832 and his parents who are named in the marriage record lived in Rekasch as well, there is no other record of any of those family members in the Rekasch family book, since it focuses on the Catholic records.  It's frustrating to hit such a road block, but I've learned to accept it and just work on the other branches of the family.  Craig A. Windt cawindt@yahoo.com ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OR the explanation is that he, Lorenz Horvath, was not a German, and the FB author(s) were not quite interested in his entrances from the original KBs ... In to many cases the title "Familienbuch der katholischen Pfarrgemeinde X" do not cover the reality and inhabitants of that village, who do not have a German name, are ignored deliberately ... S o r i n http://www.genealogy.ro/contributions.htm

The following entry caught my attention: HORVATH Franz HN 244 ex Ernsthausen *1831 +10 Feb 1895 Josefsdorf oo KARFISZL Angela Does anyone have any more information on this Angela KARFISZL, like where she was born and who her parents were. My maternal grandparents were Peter Karfisel and Theresia Haas in Ruskodorf/Kisorosz. I am interested in all information on the name KARFISEL also spelled as KARFISZL, KARVISL, KARVISLI, CARVISL, CORVISL, KARFISZEL, and other variations. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Chris ________________________________ From: Dave Dreyer <ddreyer@pacbell.net> To: Banat List <BANAT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 12:19:06 PM Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] Lorenz Horvath in Josefsdorfl Dave; This Lorenz Horvath is a long standing problem which comes up on the list from time to time over the years and there seems to be a lot of list subscribers who are decended from him. Over this period information from this family gets passed around among these interested and researchers forget who supplied it and when it comes around again it get accepted as established fact. As you are aware the passenger ship records in this case are too early to give us any information on his place of birth. The Josefsdorf KBs(church books) indicate that Lorenz Horvath is from Etschka. He was also a Juryman in Elisenhain. These two villages are close neighbors. Lorenz Horvath and his first wife, Anna Rollinger had four kids who were married in Josefsdorf, and these are recorded in the Josefsdorf KBs. In addiion I have been able to get the abstracts of the Elisenhain birth KBs and their oldest kid, Eva was born in Elisenhain. Lorenz is not in the D Etschka family book but this is not suprising since the author Philipp Lung did not have copies of all the D Etschka KBs to work from and there are many records missing. The D Etscka family book is out of print but is now available from the AVBF on a CD. The D Etschka family book was published some years ago and perhaps Philipp Lung will have acquired additional D Etschka records which will lead to a new extended edition in due course. There are several Horvath families in the D Etschka family book but they are too late to be the parents of Lorenz. The birth date of 1836 is probably calculted from his age at the time of death and is probably about right. There were a bunch of Horvaths in Elisenhain likely related, however Horvath is a very common Hungarian surname. If Lorenz wasn't born in D Etschka he was likely from nearby Ernsthausen where Horvath is also a known surname. No one that I know of has copies of the Ernsthausen KBs, As important as the origin of Lorenz is, the details on his first wife, Anna Rollinger are equally obscure. Again she might have come from Ernsthausen but someone recently posted the information that she was born in Kriva Bara 15 Jan 1834. However, this is an IGI entry and as such a secondary source has to be taken with some reservation. The matter does not stop here since we do not know the details of the marriage to his second wife, Eva Lutz. It was not in Josefsdorf. I will past below the data I have on Horvaths in the Josefsdorf-Elisenhain records and you will have to judge for yourself how best to proceed. You will see that there are a whole series of different places given for the birth of the Horvath kids in the various KB entries. Dave Dreyer HORVATH Anna HN 308 1 Stefan *27 Mar 1882 Josefsdorf +14 Oct 1882 Josefsdorf 2 Johann *29 Jul 1883 Josefsdorf +30 Jan 1885 Josefsdorf 3 Stefan *19 Oct 1885 Josefsdorf HN 236 HORVATH Anton ex Etschka oo POPOVICS Veronica 1 Victoria *31 Aug 1873 Elisenhain +6 Sep 1873 Elisenhain HORVATH Franz HN 244 ex Ernsthausen *1831 +10 Feb 1895 Josefsdorf oo KARFISZL Angela HORVATH Franz oo HEIN Maria 1 Stefan *3 Jun 1870 Elisenhain 2 Magdalena *19 Apr 1872 Elisenhain HN 21 HORVATH Josef ex St Georgen oo PAUL Katharina 1 Susanna *27 Sep 1878 Elisenhain HORVATH Rosina, widow *1855 +17 Mar 1929 Belint HORVATH Lorenz HN 238 ex Etschka. Juryman in Elisenhain. To New York 1893 *1836 +6 Apr 1915, Mt Angel OR 1oo ROLLINGER Anna 1 Anna *1859 oo Johann WEBER 2 Katharina *1866 oo Benedict RIESINGER 3 Anna *1867 oo Johann EHRENWERTH 4 Appolonia *1870 oo Leopold MOENNICH 5 Eva *23 Jul 1872 Elisenhain HN 12 +30 Jun 1951 Marschfield WI oo Kristof EHRENREICH 2oo LUTZ Eva *21 Jan 1836 +Mt Angel OR 6 Barbara *27 Apr 1880 Elisenhain +20 Aug 1884 Josefsdorf 3oo 14 Jun 1910 Gervais, OR MITTELBRUNN Maria, dau of Josef IVANCSICS and Eva LUTZ, wid of Nikolaus MITTELBRUN *2 Jul 1866 Georgshausen EHRENREICH Kristof, son of Mathias EHRENREICH and Anna RIEMSCHNEIDER Giseladorf HN46, To Lincoln Ill 1897 with parents. Later moved to Rib Lake Wisconsin and then to Marschfield Wisconsin. *1868 Klek +1918 oo 5 Jul 1891 Josefsdorf HORVATH Eva, dau of Lorenz HORVATH and Anna ROLLINGER HN 204 *23 Jul 1873 Elisenhain +30 Jun 1951 Marschfield WI 1 Margaret *22 Aug 1892 Josefsdorf HN 204 +23 Sep 1892 Josefsdorf 2 Apollonia *12 Nov 1893 Josefsdorf HN 73 +28 Mar 1968 Marschfield WI 3 Magdalena *11 Jan 1895 Josefsdorf +30 Jan 1895 Josefsdorf 4 Elisabeth *30 Dec 1895 Josefsdorf HN 283 +26 Mar 1989 Marschfield WI 5 Katharine *17 Jul 1897 Josefsdorf HN 280 +10 Sep 1897 Josefsdorf 6 Christian *20 Nov 1897 +20 Nov 1962 Sheboygen WI 7 Ignatz *20 Jun 1900 Rib Lake WI +12 Mar 1968 Marschfield WI MOENNICH Leopold HN 59 ex Setschandorf oo HORVATH Apollonia, dau of Lorenz HORVATH and Anna ROLLINGER ex Georgshausen *1870 1 Eva *3 Jan 1887 Josefsdorf 2 Josef *12 Aug 1889 Josefsdorf HN 197 3 Barbara *23 May 1893 Josefsdorf HN 199 oo 5 Nov 1911, Gr Gaj Franz TERHOT RIESINGER Benedict, son of Johann RIESINGER(ex Novo Selo) and Magdalena HARTMANN HN 33 1/2 ex Beodra, Novo Selo *1860 oo 5 Jul 1885 Josefsdorf HORVATH Katharine, dau of Lorenz HORVATH(ex Novo Selo) and Anna ROLLINGER HN 238 ex Gr Gaj, ex Kriva Bara *1866 1 Johann *28 Jan 1887 Josefsdorf 2 Bernhardt *28 Nov 1889 Josefsdorf HN 239 ex Novo Selo, oo 1913 to Maria NEMETH. 3 Maria Anna *11 Sep 1892 Josefsdorf HN 237 ex Novo Selo 4 Kristof *16 Mar 1895 Josefsdorf HN 62 5 Katharine *20 Aug 1898 Josefsdorf HN 204 WEBER Johann, son of Michael WEBER and Anna KRAEMER living in Elisenhain ex Setschan *1861 oo 11 Aug 1888 Josefsdorf HORVATH Anna, dau of Lorenz HORVATH and Anna ROLLINGER living in Josefsdorf ex Neuburg. *1859 ----- Original Message ----- From: <davey1947@suddenlink.net> To: <ddreyer@pacbell.net> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:55 AM Subject: Lorenz Horvath Brickwall > Hey Dave: > Someone from the list sent me information in a forum that Lorencz Horvath > is from Deutsche Etschka. Lorencz shows up in your extractions for the > EMIGRATION FROM BANAT records aboard the ship Dresden going from > Josefsdorf to New York arriving in New York 21 Nov. 1893. > I was wondering if you know the person who may have the Deutsche Etschka > book and if they could do a lookup for me. I am hoping this record will > clarify once and for all who his parents were and also who were his > siblings. According to my records, Lorencz was born in 1836, but I do not > have the exact date. > I would appreciate any help. > Dave Weinfurtner > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BANAT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message