Amy, It is really nice of you  to take the time to do this for us. I will make my notes within your in CAPS.  This is such a mystery, but moreso, I think it is a matter of missing records. Eileen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Nichols" <absn15@gmail.com> To: davey1947@suddenlink.net Cc: BANAT@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 6:25:25 AM Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] Brickwalls and hope in the DRE Hi Dave and Eileen,  I wanted to give you some additional thoughts on Lorenz Horvath and Anna Rollinger and hopefully point you in some sort of direction of where to look next.  I’ve read through all the old posts on Lorenz Horvath and Anna Rollinger and it seems that the following is what you firmly know about Lorenz:  1.      He was married to Anna Rollinger since all the baptism records list their children as being legit. This information is found in the Gross Gaj parish records.  2.      They had at least 7 children (and possibly 8) while living in KrivaBara (Ujfalu) between the dates of 1858 – 1866.  This information is found in the Gross Gaj parish records.  3.      They had at least one daughter, Eva, in 1872 in Elisenhain.  This information was posted by Dave Dreyer and taken from the Josefsdorf-Elisenhain records. EVA'S BIRTH DATE IS 19 SEPT 1873 APPOLONIA IN 1870, AND GEORGE IN 1875.  MY FATHER AND MY GRANDMOTHER CONFIRMED THIS REMEMBERS HER MOTHER, EVA TELLING THEM SHE WAS BORN IN KRIVA BARA. SO SOMEWHERE IN THE CLOSE PROXIMITY SEEMS REASONABLE.  4.      They had children that married in Josefdorf, although I couldn’t find the dates.  This information was posted by Dave Dreyer and taken from the Josefsdorf-Elisenhain records.  EVA AND KRISTOFF EHRENREICH MARRIED IN JOSEFSDORF 5 JULY 1891.  5.      Lorenz and Anna were living with Jakob Horvath in KrivaBara (Ujfalu) in 1860 as the same residence (#75) in listed on both Jakob’s marriage record to Anna Beer and on the baptism records of Lorenz and Anna’s twins.  TWO SETS OF TWINS.   I NEVER FINISHED MY SPREADSHEET OF THE GAJ RECORDS.  I WILL POST IT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE NOTES.  6.      Jakob Horvath (above) died on 03 Mar 1869 in KrivaBara.  The information given on his burial record shows he was born in Grabatz around 1811 (58 years old).  This information is confirmed in the Grabatz FB.  The book lists Jakob Horvath, born 2 Aug 1812, as the son of Johann Horvath and Kath Neurohr.  I think it’s probably safe to assume this is the same Jakob. HMM MORE TO THINK ABOUT AND LOOK INTO.  7.      Jakob had a brother, Josef, who is apparently listed in the Grabatz FB as  having moved to Georghausen.  I’m not sure if Josef’s marriage record is found in Grabatz, but that would be something to check.  The Josef in Georgshausen was married to Katharina Rettinger from Stefansfeld, although there is no marriage record found for them in the Stephansfeld FB. HMM MORE TO THINK ABOUT AND LOOK INTO. However, there was also a Josef Horvath that was living in KrivaBara that was born around 1817, which would also be within the time frame to be Jakob’s brother.  The Josef Horvath in KrivaBara was married to Elisabeth Heck, but there is no marriage information listed in the Gross Gaj records for them. Josef died on 08 Sep 1879 in KrivaBara, but the record lists him as being born there as well (which could not be the case, as I don’t believe KrivaBara existed in 1817).  I could find no death record for Elisabeth Heck.  Josef is found as a witness and a godfather on both the records of Lorenz and Anna, as well as Jakob Horvath and Anna Beer.  He is specifically noted on some records as living in KrivaBara, so as not to be confused with the Josef in Georgshausen.  8.      Jakob Horvath married Elisabeth Taugner / Tanbrien in Lenauheim on 24 May 1835.  There are apparently 6 children listed for Jakob and Elisabeth, but none of them are Lorenz.  However, I would think this would be very useful information to check on and would think it would be helpful to get the exact names and dates of birth for these children.  There is obviously a connection between Lorenz and this Jakob, as they were living together.  Since there is no other information to go on, it would seem that pursing Jakob and Elisabeth’s children’s information would either leave them as possibilities for them as parents or rule them out.   If Lorenz was the son of Jakob and Elisabeth, he would have had to have been either their first or second born child (as he was having children by 1858).  If the Lenauheim records show that the children listed were born 1836-1838 or so, you may be able to rule them out as parents.  9.      The information on both of Jakob Horvath’s marriage records show that both Elisabeth Taugner / Tanbrien and Anna Beer were from *Ernsthausen* .  10.  There are no Horvath’s listed in the 1828 land census records, but in the 1830 tax lists there is a Michael Horvath listed.  Along with this Horvath in Ernsthausen, there are also other Horvath’s from Grabatz in the surrounding towns.  I would think that getting the names of the children of Johann Horvath and Kath Neurohr would be helpful in seeing if you can match them up to any of the other information contained in these books.  It would seem to give further indication of the family Lorenz belongs to if they all ended up in the same place. Other information that has been posted, but I couldn’t find where the information came from:  1.      Lorenz married a second time to Eva Lutz, widow of Josef Ivancsics. I can’t figure out how this connection was made, as there seems to be no marriage record for them that has even been found.  Maybe a family bible? THIS IS FROM CONNIE KOMYATI, ANOTHER LUTZ COUSIN FROM TEXAS, BOTH DESCENDANT OF EVA LUTZ.  THIS EVA WAS MARRIED THREE TIMES. 2.      Information has been posted that Lorenz and Anna had a son, Georg (born abt. 1875), who married in Marion County, OR.  Perhaps Lorenz and Anna are listed on his marriage record? SEVERAL YEARS AGO WHEN WE WENT TO THE MOUNT ANGEL EVENT I SPENT SEVERAL DAYS RESEARCHING.   THERE IS NOTHING THERE ABOUT UNCLE GEORGE OTHER THAN A DEATH RECORD .   Or his birth location?  As far as I can tell, there has been no baptism record found for Georg.  3.      Lorenz and Eva immigrated to the US in 1893.  There is an immigration record for a Lorenz Horvath and Eva, who were traveling with Maria and two children: Eva (3 years) and Regina (11 months).   IF I REMEMBER REGINA WAS ACTUALLY 11 YEARS OLD,  SHE AND HER SISTER TOOK THE HORWAT NAME AT EMIGRATION. However, there is no relationship of these people listed on the manifest, but I have seen nothing to say that Eva and Regina were the children of either Lorenz Horvath or Eva Lutz.  It would seem that Maria was Eva’s daughter by her first marriage and that the children were the product of Maria’s marriage, as the information seems to indicate that Maria was a widow.   THIS SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING CONNIE TOLD ME ABOUT MARIA. There is a Georg Horvath listed lower on the page that would have been born in 1875, but there is no relationship indicated that he may have been the son of Lorenz and Anna. YES THIS IS OUR GEORGE.  LORENZ AND EVA HAD A DAUGHTER BORBALLA THAT WAS BRON AND DIED IN JOSEFSDORF.  4.      Lorenz died in Mt. Angel or Gervais, Oregon in 1915 and Eva died in 1920.  It is reported that they are buried in the Mt. Angel Cemetery (not sure which one).   However, they are not listed in the Oregon Death Index, which goes back to 1903, or the Oregon Historical Archives (I’m not sure exactly how much of their death records have been entered).  You said that you had sent for a death certificate for Lorenz, but were informed that one did not exist in Oregon.  I just thought perhaps if they did die there, there should be an obit for them which may list their birth location or I would imagine it would be listed on their death certificate.  LORENZ ACTUALLY DIED IN A NEIGHBORING COUNTY.  THE RECORDS FOR THAT COUNTY HAVE A CHUNK OF PAPER MISSING FROM THE FILES -- IT APPEARS TO BE ABOUT 6-9 MONTHS WORTH IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY.  ONE OF THE OTHER COUSINS ,BOB ERWERT ALSO SEARCHED INDEPENDENTLY AT THE ARCHIVES AND HAD THE SAME CONCLUSION.  WHEN WE MET IN 2005 IT WAS IRONIC THAT BOB, CONNIE AND I HAD MADE THE SAME CONCLUSION ABOUT THE MISSING RECORDS AFTER REVIEWING THE FILES IN THE ARCHIVES.   THIS AREA MAY HAVE HAD A FOREIGN LANGUAGE NEWSPAPER WHERE THE OBITUARY WOULD HAVE BEEN POSTED.  THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE MT. ANGEL OR SILVERTON NEWSPAPERS.  5.      Lorenz and Anna’s son, Georg Horvath, married Katie Adelman in 1905 in Marion Co., OR.  But again there is no listing of this marriage in the Oregon Historical Archives and I think they have all their marriage information entered.  Maybe they changed their name once they immigrated? I tried searching under all the variations I could think of, but I’m sure I’m just missing this one. AFTER GEORGE DIED KATIE REMARRIED AND I DID LOCATE THAT RECORD .   EVA WAS LISTED IN THE INDEX IN THE PAST.  I NO LONGER SEE OTHER INFO THAT WAS THERE AS WELL.  MAYBE THE STATE IS HAVING TROUBLE WITH THEIR DATA BASE.    6.      Lorenz and Eva were listed in the 1910 census in Clackamas County, Oregon.  I can’t find a listing for them in either the 1900 or 1910 census and I’m sure it’s probably under some variation of their name that I’m just not finding.  The 1900 census should list Lorenz’s birth date though. THEY WERE LIVING IN ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WITH ONE OF EVA'S DAUGHTERS IN AN EARLIER CENSUS.  7.      Anna Rollinger died in 1877 in Josefdorf.  I think this is just speculation though, correct?  I could not find anything that gave information on her death in Josefdorf or anywhere else.  Perhaps this date was based on the information given in the 1910 census that Lorenz and Eva were married abt. 1878? YES, THAT WAS SPECULATION.  JOSEFSDORF IS SUCH A LONG WAY FROM GAJ!  THESE VERY MOBILE PEOPLE ARE A FACINATION TO ME.   There is some other information in the Gross Gaj records that may give some indication of where to look further for this family:  1.      On the marriage record of one of Josef Horvath and Elisabeth Heck’s daughters, she is listed as having come from the village of Klopodia, which I think was a filial parish of Großscham.  There is no baptism record found in the Gross Gaj records of the birth of this daughter, so I am assuming that she was actually born in Klopodia.  There are also some other Horvath’s listed as originating from Großscham.  It might be a place to check and the records for this time period can be found through the LDS. I ACTUALLY SPENT THREE DAYS IN SALT LAKE CITY POURING OVER THE BANAT BOOKS LOOKING FOR LORENZ.  BUT, I DID THOROUGHLY READ THE BATCHKA BOOKS, WHICH MAY HAVE SOME INFORMATION.  2.      The other idea for another village to rule would be Urmenhausen.  Glenn Schwartz, ZVA, has copies of these records and he has told me that this village was largely populated with those with Hungarian names.  There were Horvaths in KrivaBara that came from Urmenhausen, I would think it would be definitely worth your time to check these records.  I HAVE THESE RECORDS AS WELL AND HAVE NOT FOUND ANYTHING - YET!   AS DAVE KNOWS I HAVE 15 DVDS FROM GLENN OF VARIOUS VILLAGES.  SOMEHOW I MISPLACED (DELETED) THE LIST OF VILLAGES THAT GLENN HAS AND WANT TO ORDER MORE OF THE RECORDS.  AMY DO YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE THAT INFORMATION?  3.      There is a baptism record for Elisabeth Horvath, the daughter of Lorenz Horvath and Anna Klemens, who were living in house #92 at the time.  The birth occurred on 20 Nov 1856 in KrivaBara and it is noted that this was the couple’s first born.  I mention this, because it made me wonder if this was actually the daughter of Lorenz Horvath and Anna Rollinger and perhaps her name was recorded incorrectly.   THIS STRUCK ME ODDLY AS WELL.  IN FACT, I SEARCHED FOR OTHER RECORDS FOR ANNA KLEMENS THAT MIGHT TIE INTO BUT WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL.  WHAT NOTATION IN THE RECORD INDICATES THAT THIS IS THEIR FIRST CHILD?  There’s a few things that seem to at least make it worthy of consideration: 1) Lorenz and Anna Rollinger’s son, Josef, was not born until 27 Feb 1858, so the time would fit; 2) there is no other records for Lorenz Horvath and Anna Klemens; 3) on the baptism record of their twins born in 1866 the godparents listed are Peter Kromer and Katharina Klemens – indicating at least some kind of connection.  It’s just another clue to it all.  I could not find any further record for this daughter.  Anyway….I wrote this entire book to say that it seems that some good places to search and get more information might be Grabatz, Lenauheim, Urmenhausen, Großscham and of course, Ernsthausen.  I think it would be really helpful to also try to find his death record as I would think that might give some clues to his exact birth date and location…hopefully anyway. OF YOUR LIST I HAVE EXHAUSTED GEORGSHAUSEN, GRABATZ, LENAUHEIM, URMENHOAUSEN AND ERNSTHAUSEN.  BUT GROßSCHAM IS NEW TO ME AND WORTH LOOKING INTO.  5.      Lorenz and Anna’s son, Georg Horvath, married Katie Adelman in 1905 in Marion Co., OR.  But again there is no listing of this marriage in the Oregon Historical Archives and I think they have all their marriage information entered.  Maybe they changed their name once they immigrated? I tried searching under all the variations I could think of, but I’m sure I’m just missing this one. AFTER GEORGE DIED KATIE REMARRIED AND I DID LOCATE THAT RECORD .   EVA WAS LISTED IN THE INDEX IN THE PAST.  I NO LONGER SEE OTHER INFO THAT WAS THERE AS WELL.  MAYBE THE STATE IS HAVING TROUBLE WITH THEIR DATA BASE.    6.      Lorenz and Eva were listed in the 1910 census in Clackamas County, Oregon.  I can’t find a listing for them in either the 1900 or 1910 census and I’m sure it’s probably under some variation of their name that I’m just not finding.  The 1900 census should list Lorenz’s birth date though. THEY WERE LIVING IN ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WITH ONE OF EVA'S DAUGHTERS IN AN EARLIER CENSUS.  7.      Anna Rollinger died in 1877 in Josefdorf.  I think this is just speculation though, correct?  I could not find anything that gave information on her death in Josefdorf or anywhere else.  Perhaps this date was based on the information given in the 1910 census that Lorenz and Eva were married abt. 1878? YES, THAT WAS SPECULATION.  JOSEFSDORF IS SUCH A LONG WAY FROM GAJ!  THESE VERY MOBILE PEOPLE ARE A FACINATION TO ME.   There is some other information in the Gross Gaj records that may give some indication of where to look further for this family:  1.      On the marriage record of one of Josef Horvath and Elisabeth Heck’s daughters, she is listed as having come from the village of Klopodia, which I think was a filial parish of Großscham.  There is no baptism record found in the Gross Gaj records of the birth of this daughter, so I am assuming that she was actually born in Klopodia.  There are also some other Horvath’s listed as originating from Großscham.  It might be a place to check and the records for this time period can be found through the LDS. I ACTUALLY SPENT THREE DAYS IN SALT LAKE CITY POURING OVER THE BANAT BOOKS LOOKING FOR LORENZ.  BUT, I DID THOROUGHLY READ THE BATCHKA BOOKS, WHICH MAY HAVE SOME INFORMATION.  2.      The other idea for another village to rule would be Urmenhausen.  Glenn Schwartz, ZVA, has copies of these records and he has told me that this village was largely populated with those with Hungarian names.  There were Horvaths in KrivaBara that came from Urmenhausen, I would think it would be definitely worth your time to check these records.  I HAVE THESE RECORDS AS WELL AND HAVE NOT FOUND ANYTHING - YET!   AS DAVE KNOWS I HAVE 15 DVDS FROM GLENN OF VARIOUS VILLAGES.  SOMEHOW I MISPLACED (DELETED) THE LIST OF VILLAGES THAT GLENN HAS AND WANT TO ORDER MORE OF THE RECORDS.  AMY DO YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE THAT INFORMATION?  3.      There is a baptism record for Elisabeth Horvath, the daughter of Lorenz Horvath and Anna Klemens, who were living in house #92 at the time.  The birth occurred on 20 Nov 1856 in KrivaBara and it is noted that this was the couple’s first born.  I mention this, because it made me wonder if this was actually the daughter of Lorenz Horvath and Anna Rollinger and perhaps her name was recorded incorrectly.   THIS STRUCK ME ODDLY AS WELL.  IN FACT, I SEARCHED FOR OTHER RECORDS FOR ANNA KLEMENS THAT MIGHT TIE INTO BUT WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL.  WHAT NOTATION IN THE RECORD INDICATES THAT THIS IS THEIR FIRST CHILD?  There’s a few things that seem to at least make it worthy of consideration: 1) Lorenz and Anna Rollinger’s son, Josef, was not born until 27 Feb 1858, so the time would fit; 2) there is no other records for Lorenz Horvath and Anna Klemens; 3) on the baptism record of their twins born in 1866 the godparents listed are Peter Kromer and Katharina Klemens – indicating at least some kind of connection.  It’s just another clue to it all.  I could not find any further record for this daughter.  Anyway….I wrote this entire book to say that it seems that some good places to search and get more information might be Grabatz, Lenauheim, Urmenhausen, Großscham and of course, Ernsthausen.  I think it would be really helpful to also try to find his death record as I would think that might give some clues to his exact birth date and location…hopefully anyway. OF YOUR LIST I HAVE EXHAUSTED GEORGSHAUSEN, GRABATZ, LENAUHEIM, URMENHOAUSEN AND ERNSTHAUSEN.  BUT GROßSCHAM IS NEW TO ME AND WORTH LOOKING INTO. Amy Event Date Given Name Surname Age Father Given Name Father Surname Mother Given Name Mother Surname   Village Birth 20 Nov 1856 Elizabetha Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Klemens Ujfalu Birth 17 Feb 1858 Josephus Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ufalu Birth 8 Jul 1859 Catharina   Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Birth 17 Oct 1860 Nicolaus Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Birth 18 Oct 1860 Anna Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Birth 12 Jul 1863 Laurentius Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Birth 7 May 1866 Nicolaus Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Birth 7 May 1866 Catharina   Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Birth Abt. 1870 Appolonia Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger KrivaBara Birth 19 Sep 1873 Eva Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger KrivaBara Birth 1875 George Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger KrivaBara         Marriage Abt. 1879 Anna Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Marriage Abt. 1884 Anna Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Marriage 10 Aug 1889 Anna Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger         Death 10 Jul 1858 Catharina   Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Death 03 Jan 1861 Catharina   Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Death 27 Jul 1866 Nicolaus Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Ujfalu Death 30 Apr 1891 Anna Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Josefalva Death 1907 George Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Oregon Death 30 June 1951 Eva Horvath Laurentius Horvath Anna Rollinger Wisconsin On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:46 AM, <davey1947@suddenlink.net> wrote: > Hello List: > I still have 3 brickwalls in my Genealogy, and I am hoping that someone > will find these names in the village books that will be printed in the next > few years or so.  The Surnames are Rollinger, Horvath and Reimschneider > (Riemschneider). > To refresh the list's memory, Anna Rollinger was born somewhere in the > 1830s (location not known at this point, married Lorenz Horvath in about > 1856 and died in 1877.  I have researched the microfilm for Ernsthausen and > did not find her name there. > Lorenz (Lorencz) Horvath was born about 1836, remarried Eva Lutz after Anna > Rollinger died, Arrived in New York on the Ship Dresden on 21 Nov. 1893 > coming from Bremen with his wife Eva and 3 daughters (Age 54).  He died 6 > April 1915 either in Mt. Angel or Gervais, Oregon. > Anna Reimschneider (Riemschneider) was born about 5 March 1840, married > Mathias Ehrenreich and they migrated to this country in 1897.  They traveled > on the Ship Bonn going from Bremen to Baltimore and arrived 2 December 1897. >  Anna was 56.  they immediately went to Lincoln, IL.  She died 24 February > 1924 in Marshfield, Wood Co. Wisconsin. > Supposedly both the Horvath and Ehrenreich families came from Josefsdorf, > but most likely they were not born there. > I looked at Dave Dreyer's Banat Ship list "Emigration from Banat in the > National Archives Ship Records" to get the information on their arrival in > the United States. > I have found a lot of information in a website involiving research done by > a Mr. Palanka.  In that website, I found probably the whole list of cities > that are in the Banat, which ones have family books, and which ones have > websites.  I am hoping that this website may help me more as well as the > Donauschwaben Research Exchange. > I thank the list for all their help in trying to knock down these brick > walls. > Sincerely, > Dave Weinfurtner > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BANAT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- "Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BANAT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message